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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Consumer Hardware & Components > Worth it to pay restocking fee for 23" dead pixels?

Worth it to pay restocking fee for 23" dead pixels?
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mediahound
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Sep 9, 2005, 12:26 PM
 
I bought a 23" Apple Cinema Display at my local Apple Store. It had a dead pixel right near he middle of the screen. I brought it back and they gave me another one with the caveat that it was not bad enough to be considered defective by Apple and if the replacement one had dead pixels and I brought it back too, I would have to pay the 10% restocking fee in order to exchange or return it.

Guess what? The 2nd one has 2 bad pixels. It's not as bad as the first one which had a dead pixel that was visible all the time. The 2nd one's 2 bad pixels are only visible sometimes, when there are dark colors display and they are not right in the center.

Do you folks think it's worth it to pay the $149.90 restocking fee to get another one? What do you think the chances are that yet another one might even be worse or still have a bad pixel or two?

I'm a photographer and am quite picky yet I feel I can live with these 2 bad pixels that I currently have esp. since you don't see them except rarely. Although it is a bit annoying and I'm such a perfectionist that I feel like I sorta want it to be perfect.

PS, I also notice that the bad pixels get brighter if I drag a window over that section of the monitor where the bad pixel is.
( Last edited by mediahound; Sep 9, 2005 at 12:33 PM. )
     
osxisfun
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Sep 9, 2005, 12:47 PM
 
No.

People get fixated with bad pixels only to find out after a couple of weeks they don't even think of it anymore.

I bought a dell 20 lcd and it had one pixel. the next day i had forgotten about it.

I can see if its big and obvious and in the middle of the screen maybe... but you need to move on and start getting work done with your mac.

(i used to be a perfectionist now I am just too busy with work to care about the little things.)
     
mediahound  (op)
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Sep 9, 2005, 07:42 PM
 
Thanks for the input but shouldn't I expect excellence on something that is so expensive? I have a hard time wrapping my mind around having to pay so much money on a monitor that has visible defects (albeit only sometimes noticeable).
     
Cadaver
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Sep 9, 2005, 08:23 PM
 
All LCD displays run the risk of bad pixels, regardless of price. AFAIK, in the US, only Formac guarantees no dead pixels on certain models (but you'll pay more for the display).
     
chabig
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Sep 9, 2005, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by mediahound
Thanks for the input but shouldn't I expect excellence on something that is so expensive?
No. It is the nature of LCDs that some pixels may be defective. On a screen that size, 2 pixels doesn't sound too bad.
     
osxisfun
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Sep 9, 2005, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by mediahound
Thanks for the input but shouldn't I expect excellence on something that is so expensive? I have a hard time wrapping my mind around having to pay so much money on a monitor that has visible defects (albeit only sometimes noticeable).

No. as posted above, its the nature of the beast. Someday (OLED?) that will change but until then...
     
mhuie
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Sep 10, 2005, 02:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cadaver
All LCD displays run the risk of bad pixels, regardless of price. AFAIK, in the US, only Formac guarantees no dead pixels on certain models (but you'll pay more for the display).
It doesn't mean they have to sell them with dead pixels.

Until then, buy Samsung.

Samsung has a 0 dead pixel policy. So far ALL the LCD's I have gone through (approximately 6) have had 0 dead pixels. If I were you, return it and talk to the manager and try to have him waive the restocking fee.
MBP 1.83
     
ghporter
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Sep 10, 2005, 07:35 AM
 
I'm running two different models of Dell (OEM'd from Samsung) 17" LCDs and neither has any dead pixels. NONE. I can't even find a flakey pixel. With all the trash talk I see about Dell, I'm surprised that "A Quality" Dell displays are still less expensive than Apple displays, and that those expensive Apple displays still have bad pixels.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
danbrew
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Sep 13, 2005, 09:24 AM
 
I'd take it back and not pay a restocking fee. Period. Show me one item in their marketing materials or warranty that says, "oh yeah, we may sell you something with bad pixels that may prevent you from doing your job - but that's too bad." Sorry, that don't say this. They only say this when you call them after the fact and complain. "Oh yes, we have a policy to make you eat this instead of us."

Completely unacceptable.

View Apple's stated policy on returns and exchanges here: http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Im...spolicies.html. You won't find the word pixel or display anywhere within the terms and conditions. Further, examine the hardware warranty here: http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/hardware.html. The word pixel or display is not mentioned at all. As a matter of fact, Apple goes out of their way to state the following several times: All Apple hardware products, including clearance and refurbished products, carry a one-year Limited Warranty against defects in materials and workmanship . I completely get that apple doesn't want to replace dead pixels and has institutionalized a "corporate policy" of not replacing displays with a few dead pixels. It's much easier to tell people "oh yes, that's corporate policy. everybody knows that it is exceptionally difficult to produce an error free display - gosh, they have *millions* of pixels in those things." Yeah, guess what? Processors have millions of transistors in them too. Hear anybody claiming it's ok to have a few broken transistors?

I get that this happens. And I get that it's ok for a lot of people. Hell, I probably have some bad pixels in one of the several Apple displays in my home - but perhaps those pixels are stuck in the "off" position. As a photographer I can absolutely guarantee you that it would drive me nuts if I had a red pixel stuck in the on position. I'd demand a replacement and I would get it at no charge.

It all comes down to how much you want to fight Apple. They count on you not having the energy or knowledge on how to battle this. Apple could, by the way, simply change their terms and conditions. They could change their warranty to say "Our products aren't as good as the competition and sometimes you're gonna get bad pixels after you've spent top dollar with us. That's too bad. We're not gonna do anything about it." Then, and only then, would you have no recourse. Since they aren't willing to issue such a warranty (because it would hinder sales), you have all the recourse in the world.

I would debate that you would have recourse under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act if Apple refused to replace a display under warranty. View this page for great information on this federal warranty law: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...#Magnuson-Moss.

The "catch" is that Apple will debate that their warranty says "Apple, as defined below, warrants this Apple-branded hardware product against defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for a period of ONE (1) YEAR from the date of retail purchase by the original end-user purchaser ("Warranty Period")." The key being ...defects in materials and workmanship.... They're gonna say that bad pixels aren't a defect. It's a commonly accepted thing in the LCD display business. I say that's what they would like you to believe. I'll also say that you'll find lots of sites on the internet (including this one) that talk about how natural it is and not to get so uptight. But you will find LCD manufacturers who have a zero defect policy when it comes to bad pixels - the price is adjusted accordingly, I'm sure. But the fact that there are manufacturers out there who can develop/sell/market zero bad pixels mean that it's not a commonly accepted thing in the display business.

In the end, though, it all comes down to the fact that Apple's warranty does not address this issue. You cannot legally have a warranty that has another few chapters that are "hidden" and not divulged to the consumer until they have a problem.

Be nice, be firm, ask Apple to specifically quote chapter and verse from their warranty where it says you need to eat a manufacturing defect. They will not be able to do so. Period.
     
mediahound  (op)
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Sep 13, 2005, 03:43 PM
 
I've pretty much given up on buying anything from Apple Stores going forward. Their return policy sucks. Get this, if you buy a 'refreshed' item that someone already paid a 10% restocking fee on, and then you return it, they collect another 10% restocking fee from you. So they've now made 20% off the deal.

I've found their employees to be real jerkish too. They do it with a smile but are quite jerkish.

Getting back to my monitor issue. I brought it into the store and signed up at their "Genuis Bar". I had to wait over an hour for my appointment time. The genuises are no genuises. All they did was hook up the monitor and run Pixel Check. The verified what I told them, that indeed there are 2 bad pixels. Then they looked up Apple's policy document which stated that this is not considered a defect so they said they can't do anything for me. Of course I could still return it no problem, and pay the 10% restocking fee. In fact, the gal was encouraging me to do so telling me "You're a photographer so I can understand that you want your monitor not to have dots on it. You should go ahead and pay the restocking fee to get another one". Then I asked her what if I did that and the new one also had a few bad pixels? She said I could keep returning it and paying a 10% restocking fee as many times as I wanted until I got a perfect one.

What a scam!
     
GSixZero
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Sep 13, 2005, 04:18 PM
 
Perhaps you should consider a CRT then?

ImpulseResponse
     
osxisfun
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Sep 13, 2005, 05:34 PM
 
you might want to consider that. You may never get the color matched on an LCD., unless you go with an apple or another 3rd part lcd that _says_ upfront they can adjust their color for designers etc.

i doubt the dell lcds do this. since they are sooooo bright. and have less adjustment tools on OSX>
     
Cadaver
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Sep 14, 2005, 11:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by danbrew
I'd take it back and not pay a restocking fee. Period. Show me one item in their marketing materials or warranty that says, "oh yeah, we may sell you something with bad pixels that may prevent you from doing your job - but that's too bad." Sorry, that don't say this. They only say this when you call them after the fact and complain. "Oh yes, we have a policy to make you eat this instead of us."

Completely unacceptable.

View Apple's stated policy on returns and exchanges here: http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Im...spolicies.html. You won't find the word pixel or display anywhere within the terms and conditions. Further, examine the hardware warranty here: http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/hardware.html. The word pixel or display is not mentioned at all. As a matter of fact, Apple goes out of their way to state the following several times: All Apple hardware products, including clearance and refurbished products, carry a one-year Limited Warranty against defects in materials and workmanship . I completely get that apple doesn't want to replace dead pixels and has institutionalized a "corporate policy" of not replacing displays with a few dead pixels. It's much easier to tell people "oh yes, that's corporate policy. everybody knows that it is exceptionally difficult to produce an error free display - gosh, they have *millions* of pixels in those things." Yeah, guess what? Processors have millions of transistors in them too. Hear anybody claiming it's ok to have a few broken transistors?

I get that this happens. And I get that it's ok for a lot of people. Hell, I probably have some bad pixels in one of the several Apple displays in my home - but perhaps those pixels are stuck in the "off" position. As a photographer I can absolutely guarantee you that it would drive me nuts if I had a red pixel stuck in the on position. I'd demand a replacement and I would get it at no charge.

It all comes down to how much you want to fight Apple. They count on you not having the energy or knowledge on how to battle this. Apple could, by the way, simply change their terms and conditions. They could change their warranty to say "Our products aren't as good as the competition and sometimes you're gonna get bad pixels after you've spent top dollar with us. That's too bad. We're not gonna do anything about it." Then, and only then, would you have no recourse. Since they aren't willing to issue such a warranty (because it would hinder sales), you have all the recourse in the world.

I would debate that you would have recourse under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act if Apple refused to replace a display under warranty. View this page for great information on this federal warranty law: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...#Magnuson-Moss.

The "catch" is that Apple will debate that their warranty says "Apple, as defined below, warrants this Apple-branded hardware product against defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for a period of ONE (1) YEAR from the date of retail purchase by the original end-user purchaser ("Warranty Period")." The key being ...defects in materials and workmanship.... They're gonna say that bad pixels aren't a defect. It's a commonly accepted thing in the LCD display business. I say that's what they would like you to believe. I'll also say that you'll find lots of sites on the internet (including this one) that talk about how natural it is and not to get so uptight. But you will find LCD manufacturers who have a zero defect policy when it comes to bad pixels - the price is adjusted accordingly, I'm sure. But the fact that there are manufacturers out there who can develop/sell/market zero bad pixels mean that it's not a commonly accepted thing in the display business.

In the end, though, it all comes down to the fact that Apple's warranty does not address this issue. You cannot legally have a warranty that has another few chapters that are "hidden" and not divulged to the consumer until they have a problem.

Be nice, be firm, ask Apple to specifically quote chapter and verse from their warranty where it says you need to eat a manufacturing defect. They will not be able to do so. Period.
You can smack your head on a brick wall all you wish (like this: ) But it isn't going to help. Like most (but not all) manufacturers, a certain number of "pixel anomalies" is not considered a defect. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's how its handled.
     
budster101
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Sep 14, 2005, 11:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by mediahound
I bought a 23" Apple Cinema Display at my local Apple Store. It had a dead pixel right near he middle of the screen. I brought it back and they gave me another one with the caveat that it was not bad enough to be considered defective by Apple and if the replacement one had dead pixels and I brought it back too, I would have to pay the 10% restocking fee in order to exchange or return it.

Guess what? The 2nd one has 2 bad pixels. It's not as bad as the first one which had a dead pixel that was visible all the time. The 2nd one's 2 bad pixels are only visible sometimes, when there are dark colors display and they are not right in the center.

Do you folks think it's worth it to pay the $149.90 restocking fee to get another one? What do you think the chances are that yet another one might even be worse or still have a bad pixel or two?

I'm a photographer and am quite picky yet I feel I can live with these 2 bad pixels that I currently have esp. since you don't see them except rarely. Although it is a bit annoying and I'm such a perfectionist that I feel like I sorta want it to be perfect.

PS, I also notice that the bad pixels get brighter if I drag a window over that section of the monitor where the bad pixel is.
When did you buy it? If it is within two weeks, they should exchange it for you, put it on the genius bar and start it up to insure there are no dead pixels.

BTW: I do graphic design and have one dead pixel on my PB 17" and have had it there since I bought it. No big deal to me.

How long ago did you purchase it?
     
hldan
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Sep 15, 2005, 02:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
When did you buy it? If it is within two weeks, they should exchange it for you, put it on the genius bar and start it up to insure there are no dead pixels.

BTW: I do graphic design and have one dead pixel on my PB 17" and have had it there since I bought it. No big deal to me.

How long ago did you purchase it?
Budster101, don't give the poster false hope, Apple, like many companies that sell LCD screens won't generally exchange the screen within the return period just for a dead or stuck pixel. It all goes on a case by case basis. I bought a new 17" iMac G5 and I told the guy at the Apple store that I didn't want it if it had a bad pixel so he offered to open it after I bought it and let me check it out. I didn't notice any bad pixels until I got it home and saw one ugly one stuck on red.
I took it back the next day but the Apple employee was off work, I told the genius that I was offered an exchange if I found a defective pixel. He didn't want to exchange it and gave me a song and dance about pixels being acceptable, then he exchanged it in good faith but mentioned they generally won't do that without requiring a restock fee.

At this point, since I was exchanging it asked if I could pay the difference for the faster model and they genius replied, "not without paying a restock fee"!. I took the exchange for the same model and lucky for me I got a perfect screen. The genius mentioned if I had a bad pixel on the second one I would have to pay a restock fee to exchange it again.
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jia_zhuang
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Sep 22, 2005, 07:26 PM
 
Just bought the same screen 3 days ago from apple store in london regent street, 1st one had 5 bad pixels and 1 dead on in the middle of the screen... took it back and they gave me a new one, the new one had like2 bad pixels and a colour shift on the top left of the screen so took it back and got another one... 3rd time lucky??? well kinda, i've kind of given up on getting a 23" without any bad pixels and the one i got now has a dead pixel for blue and green so when ever there is a gray colour over the pixel it shows up but not too noticable as its at the far right of the screen... I agree with you about the perfection thing, I got a samsung screen too and they are cool... but still i'm in love with my cinema display... its just the luck of the draw... definetly persist if the product is highly defective, but if its only got one dead or stuck pixel or two and you can live with it then its just how anal you are about these kinda things... For me, two times was enough to go back to apple store... Luckly they didn't charge me any restocking fee... Maybe its cos its flagship store and the only one in london... But had to pay congestion charging for driving into central london and forgot to pay for it... :S oh well... the trouble i have to go through to make sure something is as i want it...
     
   
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