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FrontRow annoyances (Page 3)
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Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
FIrstly, it's not my problem. Secondly, like I said, there is no "incorrect" use. If something seemed intuitive to a user and produced desired results, it was Apple's failings for not having conducted enough usability testing to have realized this.

Grief and pain? What's with the ideology? It's just a computer...
It is just a computer. I don't understand why some people here feel outraged and pained about music stopping when going into or exiting Front Row.

Alright...fine. There is no incorrect use and Apple should add features that fit everyone's way of using the software. In fact, all software developers should do this. Happy?

My intuition when I get into my compact car is to drive it on sidewalks. This isn't incorrect usage of the car because, intuitively, my car fits on the sidewalk and it feels like a road made just for me. But if the city doesn't want my car on the sidewalks, it's the city's failing for not having conducted enough usability testing to have realized this could happen.
     
besson3c
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:41 PM
 
Horsepoo: I've made my case about usability testing and you don't seem interested in responding to it. It sounds like we are at a stopping point in this conversation.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Horsepoo: I've made my case about usability testing and you don't seem interested in responding to it. It sounds like we are at a stopping point in this conversation.
I guess so. Also considering I've made my point in the city's obviously inadequate usability testing. You made a good choice to give up now though before you look any more foolish with your 'usability testing' remarks.
     
besson3c
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:49 PM
 
What do you mean by city?

P.S. you aren't advancing your argument by gloating.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What do you mean by city?

P.S. you aren't advancing your argument by gloating.
And you aren't by pretending like you don't understand.
     
besson3c
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:52 PM
 
Have a nice afternoon, Horsepoo...
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Have a nice afternoon, Horsepoo...
Later.
     
0157988944
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Oct 30, 2007, 03:26 PM
 
It doesn't matter what Front Row is supposed to be, Apple introduced a feature, and now they took it out. It isn't like it was some obscure or special feature either. Apple allowed users to "incorrectly" use Front Row, and now that they've taken it out, it makes the app look less functional.
     
analogika
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Oct 30, 2007, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Front Row is being used incorrectly by some people here.


If you don't see how absurdly funny that assertion is, then...nevermind, I'm just glad you're here to tell us these things.
     
- - e r i k - -  (op)
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Oct 30, 2007, 07:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
This is possibly the last time I'm explaining this since I've been repeating myself over and over again to people that (purposely?) still don't understand. Purposely because I think - - - erik - - - and analogika don't want to admit that they're wrong when it's clear they are.

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0157988944
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Oct 30, 2007, 07:41 PM
 
Hahah glad you brought those tidbits up.
     
- - e r i k - -  (op)
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Oct 30, 2007, 07:53 PM
 
Moving on, leaving Horsepoo's asinine assumptions about wrong or right usage behind. I provided several real-life examples, and the transition between modal usage on or off the computer was just one of them.

Far more serious is the fact that you can no longer watch slideshows with the music of your choice. Or that you can't browse other menus within FR with the music running.

Again, my question stands: Why do some people feel the need to blindly defend stupid design decisions?
( Last edited by - - e r i k - -; Oct 30, 2007 at 09:06 PM. )

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Jim Paradise
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Oct 30, 2007, 08:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Just used Front Row in Leopard for the first time this evening, and everything else I really don't mind, and I *love* the fact that it's so much faster, and I really like the improvements over Tiger, but THOSE TWO POINTS drove me up the wall.
I definitely agree with you and Erik on these two points.
     
ph0ust
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Oct 31, 2007, 05:02 PM
 
horsepoo!!!: what is the "proper" use of Front Row? you seem to think it shouldn't be used to replace itunes, which i think *everyone* agrees with you on. it doesn't replace itunes, it is used *instead* of itunes.

everyone seems to agree that if you are working on your computer, you would use itunes to listen to music while working in other apps.

if you are done using your computer, however, perhaps you want to access your media you could use FR, given that its sole purpose is to be used as a MEDIA CENTER. this would let you scroll through your media and do any number of things. it seems to me everyone has said they are doing this not while working on their computer, but rather doing other things from say their couch or something (just like using an apple tv). this seems like typical media center use to me.

are you saying that a media center should stop working if perhaps while using it someone sends you an IM or an email? just by wanting to quickly switch over to one of those apps, while the media is playing, and then jump back should result in a complete termination of previous use of FR?

perhaps i just don't understand "proper" use. for example, all other media products in the world generally stop doing what they are doing when you hit STOP or maybe pause.

i can't think of any applications (which FR is and so is expose and spaces.... that is what those things are called regardless how they work... they are called "applications") that terminate if you switch to something else. expose runs, spaces runs, itunes does, mail continues to work, dvd player runs, and so does everything else on my mac.

someone please explain, or should i say dictate?!?!, proper use... because it seems that FR is a broken media center app at this point.
     
Gee4orce
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Nov 1, 2007, 12:31 PM
 
I love the new front row - it really makes a Mac Mini a much better option than an Apple TV these days (unless you're a YouTube addict - where IS the YouTube feature ?)

People were able to readily hack the FrontRow menu on the AppleTV, so I'm hoping that the same is true for the Leopard version. I'd love to see EyeTV appear in there as an option - that would make FrontRow a full-blown media centre.

I'd also like the option to display one of the funky new iTunes visualisers when listening to music....
     
analogika
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Nov 1, 2007, 05:21 PM
 
Considering that EyeTV already works using the Apple Remote...I know it's not the same thing, but it *is* fairly elegant.
     
littlegreenspud
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Nov 2, 2007, 08:29 AM
 
I like new speed of FR2 but agree that the music should not stop when you browse the other menus and play slideshows.

I have a Mac mini as a media centre and a big annoyance for me is that FR2 it sends the music through the sound output which is plugged into the TV! I cannot find how to tell it to send the music to the HiFi via Airport Express. This makes listening to music with FR2 a waste of time. FR1 as it used iTunes sent the music to the Airport Express.

I do not want to send all the sound to the HiFi by plugging in the sound output port of the mini into it. This would mean running a long wire to the HiFi, and the HiFi would have to be turned on just to watch my eyeTv.
     
analogika
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Nov 2, 2007, 11:14 AM
 
Now THAT is a severe oversight.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Nov 2, 2007, 12:35 PM
 
edit: double post...MacNN servers are getting annoying...anyone getting 'Server is busy' messages all the time now?
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Nov 2, 2007, 12:39 PM
 
Just to be clear, I agree with the gripes on some of the major oversights mentionned:

-Music stopping when exiting the music category. It should continue to play or the photo slideshow should allow the user to pick a song or playlist while the photos are viewed.

-Loss of conrtol over sound output...not being able to use it with Airport Express.

These are definitely problems with Front Row 2.0 that should be fixed.

But although it would be fun to have music playing in iTunes naturally flow into Front Row and back to iTunes, I understand why it's not done. No fixing is needed here.

The idea put out by besson3c and some of you here that there is no incorrect way to use software is false. Like almost anything, there is an infinite amount of incorrect ways to use anything.

You can eat on a chair and sit on table but, even though it might feel intuitive to someone, it doesn't mean it's the correct way to use it. It *can* be done...but good luck convincing the chair-maker to make the chair seat larger so you can fit your plate *and* your glass on it because you happen to use the chair as a table...and good luck convincing the table-maker to make the table shorter so you can sit comfortably on it instead of having your legs dangle from the edge of it.

You guys have to remove any notion that there is not incorrect way to use things because it's simply not true.

Should the developer make things more explicit on how some software should be used? Of course...I think it was a big mistake for Apple to give the user an easy way to launch Front Row. I'm sure a ton of people will put the red chair icon into their Dock and click on it to access their music and then wonder why it stops playing when they hit 'esc' to exit Front Row. It was a bad move. Of course, it's also a move that will be difficult to change since I see a lot of people here go into bursts of rage whenever Apple removes a feature. I can see darts flying out of people's eyes when I mention iMovie '08.

In general, Apple is cautious with adding features because they don't want to get caught realising it was a mistake and having to leave the feature in order to not break anyone's feelings. But Leopard was rushed and things were added at the last possible minute without careful thinking.

I have to remind you all that the Front Row launcher in the Applications folder was added in the very last seeded developer build. I don't think anyone Apple carefully considered the consequences of making Front Row so easily accessible to people without remotes.

I'm sure some of you feel like what's done is done and Apple can't go back on this decision and must comply to the user's will as Front Row now 'feels' like an app instead of some orthogonal feature (like Boot Camp that allows people to turn their Mac into a PC.)
     
WOPR
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Nov 2, 2007, 07:41 PM
 
Front Row now looks like a badly designed open source app

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- - e r i k - -  (op)
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Nov 2, 2007, 08:36 PM
 
Bug report filed based on the original post garnered this reply:
Our engineers are aware of the issue and will continue to track it offline. Please know that a resolution to this issue may be considered in a future release.

We consider this issue closed. Thank you for taking the time to notify us of this issue.
Nothing surprising there, but at least they are aware of the problems and might fix it later on

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- - e r i k - -  (op)
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Nov 2, 2007, 08:39 PM
 
PS. I enjoyed your half assed back-pedalling there Horsepoo. Just lose the rest of your "wrong usage" and "it feels like an app" rationalisations and you are almost there.

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Horsepoo!!!
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Nov 2, 2007, 09:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
PS. I enjoyed your half assed back-pedalling there Horsepoo. Just lose the rest of your "wrong usage" and "it feels like an app" rationalisations and you are almost there.
There's no back-pedalling here. Sorry. And no...I won't lose the rest of "your 'wrong usage'"...you're using it wrong. Get over it and move on.
     
0157988944
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Nov 2, 2007, 09:16 PM
 
Denying things doesn't make them go away.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Nov 2, 2007, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Bug report filed based on the original post garnered this reply:


Nothing surprising there, but at least they are aware of the problems and might fix it later on
Hope springs eternal, eh?
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Nov 2, 2007, 09:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
Denying things doesn't make them go away.
First we'd have to establish where I've back-pedaled. Good luck with that.
     
- - e r i k - -  (op)
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Nov 2, 2007, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
First we'd have to establish where I've back-pedaled. Good luck with that.
Thanks.
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Just to be clear, I agree with the gripes on some of the major oversights mentionned:

-Music stopping when exiting the music category. It should continue to play or the photo slideshow should allow the user to pick a song or playlist while the photos are viewed.

-Loss of conrtol over sound output...not being able to use it with Airport Express.

These are definitely problems with Front Row 2.0 that should be fixed.

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Horsepoo!!!
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Nov 2, 2007, 10:20 PM
 
I don't think you understand what back-pedaling means.

Back-pedaling would be going back on something said earlier and changing it slightly. If you can somehow prove that I was against fixing these, then you'd have a point.
     
0157988944
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Nov 2, 2007, 10:21 PM
 
And you were saying that we were al wrong earlier, and now your agreeing with us... but still throwing in a disagreement just so you don't look weak.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Nov 2, 2007, 10:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
And you were saying that we were al wrong earlier, and now your agreeing with us... but still throwing in a disagreement just so you don't look weak.
No...I have always disagreed to the idea that FR should continue playing music after it was dismissed. I've always talked about that single point and nothing else. I've never said I disagreed with the other points. You should probably go back and actually read my posts.

And here's the obligatory repeat: You were 'all wrong' about the behavior of FR acting as a persistent app that should continue playing music after it's quit (or using iTunes as a crutch). This has always been my position in this thread. I've never once disagreed with any of the other points. Nice try though.

Find a single instance where I disagreed about another point and I'll give you a cookie.
     
analogika
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Nov 3, 2007, 04:55 AM
 
I think it's obvious that if you expect FrontRow to continue playing music after you leave the Music section to browse something else, you're just using it wrong.

After all, it's not a media BROWSER, it's a media PLAYER.

Ask Horsepoo whatever the hell that's supposed to mean and why expecting to continue using pre-existing functionality is "wrong" usage; I have no idea.
     
lavar78
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Nov 4, 2007, 07:32 AM
 
You know, I just wish I had an option to display the year and star rating when playing music.

"I'm virtually bursting with adequatulence!" - Bill McNeal, NewsRadio
     
Dakarʒ
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Nov 5, 2007, 09:18 AM
 
The star rating would indeed be handy.
     
iREZ
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Nov 5, 2007, 12:21 PM
 
im on my computer checking email before getting ready for work, i leave my computer to go get dressed on the opposite side of the room, as i'm getting dressed i want to listen to music so i use the remote next to my dresser and put a song on, my favorite song comes on, i get dressed faster than anticipated and head over to my computer to waste a cool 15 min on MacNN before i leave for work while my fav song is still playing, i exit front row to use safari and BOOM! my song stops because i now want to use safari. i now have to launch itunes find the song scrub it to where it got cut off and resume to safari. you guys are soooooo right...this TOTALLY makes sense, i mean why would i want the song to continue (sarcasm).

this doesn't happen in tiger and i'm glad it doesnt. a computer is both a computer AND media center not one or the other so it should merge both as much as possible not push away to attempt a delineation that isn't there . FR1 gets this FR2 doesn't. for now i'm sticking with tiger till leopard gets a few more fixes and i'm really hoping that FR2 is one of those fixes.

FR1 > FR2
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analogika
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Nov 5, 2007, 07:01 PM
 
No no no - you're using it wrong.

     
- - e r i k - -  (op)
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Nov 5, 2007, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
No no no - you're using it wrong.



BTW, we got linked from Apple discussions apparently. And it seems we are not the only ones thinking that "using it wrong" is a fallacy:

Apple - Support - Discussions - Doesn't continue to play when I leave ...

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telos
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Nov 11, 2007, 09:58 PM
 
I don't understand all this talk about FR being decoupled from iTunes...

1) Quit iTunes
2) Enter FR
3) Play a song
4) Quit FR
5) iTunes is running.

On another note: Erik is absolutely right. The new FR is extremely user-unfriendly and his usage-scenarios are very common.

I would also like to point out that the new FR text is illegibly minute and Ii find the "flip" effect at regular intervals while playing music utterly distracting.
     
mpancha
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Nov 12, 2007, 04:47 PM
 
Here's another workflow that might actuallly help you instead of trying to convince you wether you are right or wrong, not trying to pick a fight, just I see no point in people trying to change someone's workflow (just what apple did with the changes in Front Row 2 which many like, and many don't... its personal preference).

There's a software called Remote Buddy that will let youocontrol a whole lot more than just front row using you Apple Remote. According to their site is is $20 pounds, dont know off the top of my head what that converts to in USD. And for the record I am not affiliated with Remote Buddy, truth be told I hate it but only b/c it doesn't suit my needs. But based on comments here, I think it might actually be perfect for what the OP wants to do.

I believe you can run it as a trial, try it out, I'm curious to know if it works for what you want to do with music/photos.
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Eug
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Nov 18, 2007, 11:16 AM
 
Yeah, the new limitations in Front Row are rather lame. However, it's good to see Apple agrees it's a problem and will fix it.

Mind you, it may all be moot for me. For some reason, Front Row doesn't work at all on my upgraded G4 machine. Everything else works (including Time Machine, iDVD, and iPhoto, etc.), so I'm not sure what's up with Front Row.
     
TETENAL
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Nov 18, 2007, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by mpancha View Post
According to their site is is $20 pounds, dont know off the top of my head what that converts to in USD.
Oh dear, oh dear.

This $ is the Dollar sign. Used for example for the US currency.
This £ is the Pound sign. Used for example for the British currency.
This is the Euro sign (which is actually the sign on their website). Used for the European currency Euro.
     
Raman
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Nov 20, 2007, 12:08 AM
 
Wow. Great to just change how Front Row works. They should let you decide for yourself what happens to the music when you exit the music section of Front Row. It's annoying that the music stops. Is this one of the 300 improvements in Leopard???

Fix this, Apple!
     
 
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