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Religiulous (Page 2)
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TETENAL
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Jul 8, 2008, 07:51 AM
 
Religion is particularly easy to instrumentalize since it discourages reasoning.
     
Taliesin
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Jul 8, 2008, 08:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
Religion is particularly easy to instrumentalize since it discourages reasoning.
Reasoning is used in any concept, religious or not, in fact reasoning is key to power-projection, regardless in which framework, what you mean is independent critical thinking. That sort of thinking is discouraged in any hype/emergency-situation when the bandwagon is already rolling, and people using it then usually get labelled as traitors or backstabbers or unpatriotic or... simply funspoilers.

Taliesin
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jul 8, 2008, 08:48 AM
 
I agree that humans are willing to commit all types of atrocities under many guises, but I also think religion deserves the blame it gets. As facet of life which many people base their daily actions on (and are united by), it wields some of the greatest power over the largest majority of people and has the least accountability, making it potentially very dangerous (see: suicide bombings, inquisition).

I'm of the opinion that when you remove religion as a reason to commit an atrocity, you start leaving lesser reasons (country, ethnicity, political party, money, etc.), and those, in turn, become start becoming harder to justify, more likely to be questioned.
     
Taliesin
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Jul 8, 2008, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
I agree that humans are willing to commit all types of atrocities under many guises, but I also think religion deserves the blame it gets. As facet of life which many people base their daily actions on (and are united by), it wields some of the greatest power over the largest majority of people and has the least accountability, making it potentially very dangerous (see: suicide bombings, inquisition).

I'm of the opinion that when you remove religion as a reason to commit an atrocity, you start leaving lesser reasons (country, ethnicity, political party, money, etc.), and those, in turn, become start becoming harder to justify, more likely to be questioned.
I don't think so, the fear of God is something that inspires activism as well as passivism, the people in power using religion for propagandistic actions are and were constantly questioned for their motives, and many people fear and feared that their leaders, religious or not, were led astray.

In the end that means that the level of organized action is not inherently higher than within any other framework.

Taliesin
     
Shaddim
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Jul 8, 2008, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
As if Fox News tells you what is really going on
I seldom watch Fox news, usually I tune to CNN.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 8, 2008, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
I don't think so, the fear of God is something that inspires activism as well as passivism, the people in power using religion for propagandistic actions are and were constantly questioned for their motives, and many people fear and feared that their leaders, religious or not, were led astray.

In the end that means that the level of organized action is not inherently higher than within any other framework.

Taliesin
Yes...but...Dakar is saying that one less framework is always a good thing. If we can remove them all and only have a single framework, then we're talking!

Right now we've got:
"I did it in the name of God/Allah"
"I did it because the rich are hogging all the wealth and the wealth should be distributed equally amongst everyone."
"I did it in the name of science."
"I did it for my country."
etc.

If we can at least narrow it down to "I did it for the good of the human race" then we're getting better because there's nothing else to put the blame or reason on. When you've got tons of small frameworks (or groups) all fighting for their survival, it's no wonder you'll get at least some atrocities. No matter how well you try to have some sort of equilibrium or peace between all the groups, there's always some groups that will feel threatened or unequal to others. It's life though...at least life as we know it.

Reducing ourselves down to a single 'framework' will take a long time. But we should try to remove some of them if we can.
( Last edited by Horsepoo!!!; Jul 8, 2008 at 12:40 PM. )
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jul 8, 2008, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
the people in power using religion for propagandistic actions are and were constantly questioned for their motives
I disagree. From outsiders, perhaps, but internally, only by the brightest or most ethical usually challenge the leader.
     
Shaddim
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Jul 8, 2008, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Yes...but...Dakar is saying that one less framework is always a good thing. If we can remove them all and only have a single framework, then we're talking!

Right now we've got:
"I did it in the name of God/Allah"
"I did it because the rich are hogging all the wealth and the wealth should be distributed equally amongst everyone."
"I did it in the name of science."
"I did it for my country."
etc.

If we can at least narrow it down to "I did it for the good of the human race" then we're getting better because there's nothing else to put the blame or reason on. When you've got tons of small frameworks (or groups) all fighting for their survival, it's no wonder you'll get at least some atrocities. No matter how well you try to have some sort of equilibrium or peace between all the groups, there's always some groups that will feel threatened or unequal to others. It's life though...at least life as we know it.

Reducing ourselves down to a single 'framework' will take a long time. But we should try to remove some of them if we can.
Isn't it a better idea to work on human nature first? It's similar to the gun issue, taking away a tool isn't going to keep people from being assholes to (or harming) each other.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 8, 2008, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Isn't it a better idea to work on human nature first? It's similar to the gun issue, taking away a tool isn't going to keep people from being assholes to (or harming) each other.
Well yeah...I mean if everyone viewed everyone in the same way and if everyone was equal, there would be zero reason for anyone to act like an asshole or harming others.

Countries, religions, races, wealth, knowledge, whatever...it's all getting in the way of being equal.

Patriotism, religiousness, love for your race, being rich, knowing more than others...these things are all good until their used to lower other groups. And even if you don't use it to lower other groups, nothing's stopping the other groups from thinking or realizing they're inferior or at a disadvantage.

First and foremost, poverty has to end. This is one 'structure/framework' that has to go. Trillions of dollars are used for utter bullshit and nothing is done to help the needy. Most crimes/atrocities come from people that want to survive but don't have the means to do so with so little wealth.

Disparity in knowledge is also somewhat disappearing with the internet...you have to sift through a lot of bullshit and opinions but, dig long enough and you'll find what you're looking for...sure, there's still top secret information kept within company, government, (and other power group) walls. But anyone with a computer and internet access now can educate himself without the need to go to school.
( Last edited by Horsepoo!!!; Jul 8, 2008 at 02:02 PM. )
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jul 8, 2008, 01:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Isn't it a better idea to work on human nature first? It's similar to the gun issue, taking away a tool isn't going to keep people from being assholes to (or harming) each other.
Yeah, but we don't let anyone use a gun.
     
Taliesin
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Jul 9, 2008, 04:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
I disagree. From outsiders, perhaps, but internally, only by the brightest or most ethical usually challenge the leader.
I partly disagree. Sure, outsiders challenge the frameworks they left much more than those still within that framework, but nonetheless even those within the framework constantly overthink, interpret, exegise and guard against false judgements by their leaders, eventhough they do it more subtle, not with the aim to abolish the framework but to improve/adapt it.

Of course like in every framework, the challenging and overthinking is done by bright people and not by weakminded laymen, who can't think in abstract terms.

If you go back and read through the written work of religious scholars centuries and millenias ago, in jewish, christian and islamic sources, you will see lots of examples for this, actually a lot of splitting and secting and evolving goes back to these elaborate challenges.

Taliesin
     
vmarks
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Jul 9, 2008, 08:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Most crimes/atrocities come from people that want to survive but don't have the means to do so with so little wealth.
Sorry, I require some evidence.

What I know is that many atrocities are committed by well-educated, well-off people who use desperation as an excuse.

Osama Bin Ladin is a Saudi millionaire.

In the most recent attack at the Merkaz Harav yeshiva in Jerusalem on March 6, 2008, in which eight seminary students were brutally gunned down and another 15 wounded, the perpetrator, Ala Abu Dhaim, was not poor or desperate. He was engaged to be married, he came from a family that is financially comfortable, and was employed by the yeshiva as a driver.

The cousin of one of the two Palestinian suicide bombers who blew themselves up on a pedestrian mall in Jerusalem in 2001, killing 10 people between the ages of 14 and 21, remarked candidly, "These two were not deprived of anything." Washington Post, (December 5, 2001). http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingt...+but+a+Mission

A report by the National Bureau of Economic Research concluded, "economic conditions and education are largely unrelated to participation in, and support for, terrorism." - Jitka Maleckova and Alan Kreuger, "Education, Poverty, Political Violence and Terrorism: Is There a Causal Connection?" (July 2002), quoted in the Daily Star [Lebanon], (August 6, 2002). http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=319750

Palestinian female lawyer, Hanadi Tayseer Jaradat, 29, killed 21 civilians in a 2003 bombing at Maxim restaurant in Haifa

The now-deceased Hamas leader Dr Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was a pediatrician.
Khaled Mashaal is a physics teacher; Mahmoud Zahar is a doctor; and the other senior Hamas leader still alive, Moussa Abu Marzook, holds a Ph.D. in industrial engineering

These aren't poor people. Their attacks aren't motivated by poverty.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jul 9, 2008, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I seldom watch Fox news, usually I tune to CNN.
The news source that puts Britney Spears news over the warS the US is currently in... oh ya muuuch better
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 9, 2008, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Sorry, I require some evidence.

What I know is that many atrocities are committed by well-educated, well-off people who use desperation as an excuse.

Osama Bin Ladin is a Saudi millionaire.

In the most recent attack at the Merkaz Harav yeshiva in Jerusalem on March 6, 2008, in which eight seminary students were brutally gunned down and another 15 wounded, the perpetrator, Ala Abu Dhaim, was not poor or desperate. He was engaged to be married, he came from a family that is financially comfortable, and was employed by the yeshiva as a driver.

The cousin of one of the two Palestinian suicide bombers who blew themselves up on a pedestrian mall in Jerusalem in 2001, killing 10 people between the ages of 14 and 21, remarked candidly, "These two were not deprived of anything." Washington Post, (December 5, 2001). http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingt...+but+a+Mission

A report by the National Bureau of Economic Research concluded, "economic conditions and education are largely unrelated to participation in, and support for, terrorism." - Jitka Maleckova and Alan Kreuger, "Education, Poverty, Political Violence and Terrorism: Is There a Causal Connection?" (July 2002), quoted in the Daily Star [Lebanon], (August 6, 2002). http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=319750

Palestinian female lawyer, Hanadi Tayseer Jaradat, 29, killed 21 civilians in a 2003 bombing at Maxim restaurant in Haifa

The now-deceased Hamas leader Dr Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was a pediatrician.
Khaled Mashaal is a physics teacher; Mahmoud Zahar is a doctor; and the other senior Hamas leader still alive, Moussa Abu Marzook, holds a Ph.D. in industrial engineering

These aren't poor people. Their attacks aren't motivated by poverty.
Ignorance.
     
Chuckit
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Jul 9, 2008, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Ignorance.
no u
(⇧ equally valid and persuasive response)
Chuck
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Railroader
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Jul 9, 2008, 05:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
The news source that puts Britney Spears news over the warS the US is currently in... oh ya muuuch better
IIRC, you used to link to CNN ad nauseam a couple years back. Change of heart? Does that make all of the CNN links you posted inaccurate?
( Last edited by Railroader; Jul 9, 2008 at 06:48 PM. )
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 9, 2008, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
no u
(⇧ equally valid and persuasive response)
Oh noez!

I could answer but I know how this forum works...and I already know vmarks stance on this.
     
vmarks
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Jul 9, 2008, 06:50 PM
 
You know,

All I asked for was some evidence to support the position that violent acts are inspired by poverty.

I supplied empirical evidence and an academic paper to support my position that poverty is not a factor.
     
Railroader
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Jul 9, 2008, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
You know,

All I asked for was some evidence to support the position that violent acts are inspired by poverty.

I supplied empirical evidence and an academic paper to support my position that poverty is not a factor.
Facts will get you no where around here. You need innuendos and major half-truths wrapped in circular logic, all tied together with an indefatigable posting style if you want to win an argument on MacNN Pol lounge.
     
Kerrigan
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Jul 9, 2008, 08:45 PM
 
I have not read this thread. Rather than reading it I'm going to take a wild guess that it has to do with finding an explanation for why Muslims are always firing guns in the air and blowing themselves up in their slums, and the difficulty that liberals have with equivocating this to the relatively peaceful conditions in America's Bible-belt.

Lebanon, Shia Belt


Hilton Head, Bible Belt
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 9, 2008, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
You know,

All I asked for was some evidence to support the position that violent acts are inspired by poverty.

I supplied empirical evidence and an academic paper to support my position that poverty is not a factor.
You did but it doesn't mean that poverty isn't a factor. But you did find stuff to support that something other than poverty wasn't a factor. Good job.

Nowhere do I say poverty is the only factor.

I hate this forum. Too many logical fallacies from everyone.
     
Railroader
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Jul 9, 2008, 09:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
I have not read this thread. Rather than reading it I'm going to take a wild guess that it has to do with finding an explanation for why Muslims are always firing guns in the air and blowing themselves up in their slums, and the difficulty that liberals have with equivocating this to the relatively peaceful conditions in America's Bible-belt.
Don't forget, those liberals are surrounded by SUVs with fish bumper stickers!!! The horror.
     
Chuckit
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Jul 9, 2008, 09:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
You did but it doesn't mean that poverty isn't a factor. But you did find stuff to support that something other than poverty wasn't a factor. Good job.

Nowhere do I say poverty is the only factor.

I hate this forum. Too many logical fallacies from everyone.
I'm not trying to get on your case or anything, but you keep getting all huffy about flaws in other people's arguments yet you refuse to provide evidence for your own when it's requested. Is a logical fallacy really that much worse than refusing to present a logical argument for your claims in the first place?
Chuck
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lpkmckenna
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Jul 9, 2008, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
I have not read this thread. Rather than reading it I'm going to take a wild guess that it has to do with finding an explanation for why Muslims are always firing guns in the air and blowing themselves up in their slums, and the difficulty that liberals have with equivocating this to the relatively peaceful conditions in America's Bible-belt.
I don't have any difficulty understanding it.

1. Most Christians don't view their religion as a political screed.
2. Those Christians that do are blocked by that cultural and political wall between church and state.

Islam isn't the issue. Islam as political ideology is. See? Not so hard.

Also, in a democracy, people don't fight in the streets when they can fight in elections. Only a few hundred years ago, Christians of various stripes would gladly kill over dogma. They only stopped because of democracy. Except for Ireland, but we Irish never regard a matter settled unless there's some blood spilt.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jul 10, 2008, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
I have not read this thread. Rather than reading it I'm going to take a wild guess that it has to do with finding an explanation for why Muslims are always firing guns in the air and blowing themselves up in their slums, and the difficulty that liberals have with equivocating this to the relatively peaceful conditions in America's Bible-belt.
So the US is all sunshine and roses then or is nothing in the world as bad as a terrorist?
     
 
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