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The Official MacNN COVID-19 Thread (Page 28)
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OreoCookie
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Oct 19, 2021, 07:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, any ideology is going to have internal conflicts the adherent will need to prioritize. I prioritize personal liberty. If a potential organ donor is aware of the risks (such as the recipient ruining the organ) and still willingly wants to donate, I don’t think they should be denied on the basis of risk.
That sounds to me like you want to have your cake and eat it, too. You want others to do something they don’t want to do.

When you prioritize personal liberty, i. e. you prioritize yourself, you must give others the same right — reciprocity. And you have to accept when other people’s or organizations decisions do not align with your whims and interests. Part of that is that you can say, you can’t make me do X where X = taking the vaccine or getting a handle on your eating disorder. That’s your business. But reciprocity means that you can’t make others do Y either. Understanding or sound reasoning by the other party is not required.

To be honest, this is an inconsistency that I see with a lot of libertarians who are big on personal liberty if that means that they can do what they want, but often do not want to bear the responsibility and consequences for their personal choices. But IMHO if you claim that personal liberty/choice is your top priority (as you have done in your post), you need to afford the same rights to others.
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subego
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Oct 19, 2021, 08:10 PM
 
Which others? People paying into the insurance pool?
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 19, 2021, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Which others? People paying into the insurance pool?
There are plenty of stakeholders, I can think of off the top of my head, e. g. hospitals (as an organization), hospital staff (doctors, nurses, X-ray techs, etc.), other potential patients, people paying into the insurance pool, etc. At the very least, you'd be forcing doctors, OR nurses and nurses to perform a surgery that they don't want to perform and take care of you afterwards.

If you want others to respect your choices and accept that they cannot tell you what to do, you need to afford others the same respect. Otherwise, you are not a libertarian, you are just selfish.
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subego
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Oct 19, 2021, 09:32 PM
 
I’ve addressed most of, if not all these points.

If the hospital doesn’t have the resources, obviously they shouldn’t do the transplant.
If the doctor feels the stress of the operation isn’t worth it they have the right to refuse.
If the insurance company doesn’t want to pay, than so be it.

Am I not making these points explicit enough?
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 19, 2021, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Am I not making these points explicit enough?
None of them matter if you view it through the lens of prioritizing your liberty. I'm not saying this is the only lens to view this through, but you brought it up, and I think it is worth exploring.

It is really simple: if the patient gets told if you don't do X, we cannot/will not perform procedure Y, and the patient chooses not to do X, they have to accept that they will not receive Y. It is the flipside of the coin of personal choice, personal responsibility. This is especially true for simple asks like getting vaccinated, which is much harder than losing a large amount of weight, dealing with a serious eating disorder or alcoholism. Please do not get hung up on the examples, the point is that the ask is a simple thing to do with little to no risk (at least that is the best available knowledge).
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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 20, 2021, 01:25 PM
 
I don't get the discussion.

If you're due for a transplant that is going to REQUIRE you to be immunocompromised for the forseeable future, and you refuse to undergo basic medical prep that will maximise your chances of survival following the transplant, then you will be denied the transplant.

If you refuse blood transfusions, you will be denied the transplant, as those might be necessary to ensure you survive the operation.

If you categorically refused the anaesthetic, you would also be denied the transplant, because that is basic required procedure to maximise chances of surviving the operation.

If you don't get vaccinated, you probably WILL eventually get Covid, and chances are very, very good that it will kill you if you're a transplantee on immunosuppressants.

I understand that you might construe an ethical argument, but really, it's just a pragmatic issue of surviving a medical procedure. Either you want to — and get vaccinated —, or you don't — and don't get the medical procedure.
     
subego
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Oct 20, 2021, 01:49 PM
 
The primary reason transplants demand maximal compliance from the patient is to make use of a scarce resource, the organ. Since this case involves the direct donation of an organ, those concerns don’t apply.

Performing the operation without blood transfusions or anesthesia would make the failure rate 100%. The numbers I came across for not being vaccinated against COVID are less than that.
     
subego
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Oct 20, 2021, 11:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
None of them matter if you view it through the lens of prioritizing your liberty. I'm not saying this is the only lens to view this through, but you brought it up, and I think it is worth exploring.

It is really simple: if the patient gets told if you don't do X, we cannot/will not perform procedure Y, and the patient chooses not to do X, they have to accept that they will not receive Y. It is the flipside of the coin of personal choice, personal responsibility. This is especially true for simple asks like getting vaccinated, which is much harder than losing a large amount of weight, dealing with a serious eating disorder or alcoholism. Please do not get hung up on the examples, the point is that the ask is a simple thing to do with little to no risk (at least that is the best available knowledge).
In this context, when I say I prioritize personal freedom, it means I’m going to allow the donor and the recipient to adopt (almost) any amount of personal risk to themselves.

In other words, we (generally) cannot refuse the patient or donor on the grounds of the risks they take upon themselves.

However, we can refuse based on the risk to others, such as the risk to other patients who need the resources, the risk to doctors of psychological damage, or the risk to those paying into the insurance pool. These entities have the personal freedom not to adopt these risks upon themselves.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 21, 2021, 03:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In this context, when I say I prioritize personal freedom, it means I’m going to allow the donor and the recipient to adopt (almost) any amount of personal risk to themselves.
The price of personal freedom is that you need to take responsibility for the consequences of your actions. I don’t just mean personal risk, but also others not reacting the way you want them to to what you do. It’s just like free speech: you may have the right to say something stupid or offensive, but you don’t have the right to the audience reacting in a favorable way.

I also don’t think that legally and morally, hospitals, doctors and staff do not assume a risk.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In other words, we (generally) cannot refuse the patient or donor on the grounds of the risks they take upon themselves.
And generally we don’t, only in exceptional circumstances. But transplants are serious procedures that require serious commitments by patients. Again, we should not lose sight of the context for the case that originally prompted the discussion: immunocompromised patients in the middle of a pandemic.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The primary reason transplants demand maximal compliance from the patient is to make use of a scarce resource, the organ. Since this case involves the direct donation of an organ, those concerns don’t apply.
I don’t think the scarcity of the organ is the only primary reason, prognosis and outlook for the patient as well as the high risks involved are others. Before you write that these people “adopt (almost) any amount of personal risk to themselves”, this is not possible even if all sides wanted to. Doctors, staff and the hospital can be legally liable. That includes e. g. unnecessary risks to staff and other patients (e. g. because an unvaccinated patient unnecessarily infected other immunocompromised patients). But it goes beyond the legal risk: hospital staff feels morally responsible for their decisions, and deciding against a transplant because the patient is unnecessarily endangering themselves can also be viewed from this vantage point. This is not just a decision of spite or anger, they could also hope that the patient has a change of mind — “So you are really willing to be anesthetized, cut open, have an organ cut out and be on immunosuppressants for the rest of your life, but unwilling to take a vaccine that literally over 3 billion people have taken?”

Also in other situations, I think it is fair to say to some patients that they should come back once they have gotten a handle on their other issues (e. g. that they will get their joint replacement once they have lost enough weight or that they will only get a liver transplant if they have stopped drinking for x months). That can also be in the interest of the patient. Indeed, it can be the right thing, the moral thing to do.
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Oct 21, 2021, 02:00 PM
 
I have a cold for 3 days. Got a covid test today just to rule it out so I don't feel like typhoid mary if I have to leave the house.
     
subego
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Oct 21, 2021, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don’t think the scarcity of the organ is the only primary reason, prognosis and outlook for the patient as well as the high risks involved are others. Before you write that these people “adopt (almost) any amount of personal risk to themselves”, this is not possible even if all sides wanted to. Doctors, staff and the hospital can be legally liable. That includes e. g. unnecessary risks to staff and other patients (e. g. because an unvaccinated patient unnecessarily infected other immunocompromised patients).
Avoiding the harm caused by withholding an organ from a more deserving patient is self-evidently of greater importance than (i.e, holds primacy over) avoiding harm a patient may inflict upon themselves.

If the hospital cannot create a consent form indemnifying from liability, they are under no obligation to adopt this risk, and are free to offer it as a reason.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 22, 2021, 03:19 AM
 
Your issue is framing the matter as “more deserving”. That’s bogus. This isn’t about merit.

Transplants are about realistic long-term survival. That’s literally the only reason they’re even considered in the first place.
     
subego
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Oct 22, 2021, 07:42 AM
 
If patient A has a better survival prognosis than patient B because patient A is more compliant than patient B, patient A merits the transplant more.

I smoke. Someone who’s never touched a cigarette merits a lung transplant more than I do.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
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Oct 22, 2021, 08:39 AM
 
Donor organs are rarer than anything else on earth. You don't risk them unnecessarily. Even if the donor says they'll only donate to one specific person.
     
ghporter
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Oct 22, 2021, 05:43 PM
 
I got my Pfizer booster today, after my doctor advised going for it. My wife got hers Tuesday and felt crappy Wednesday. She was better enough to work yesterday, but she's still a bit more tired than she "should" be. Not bad for a robust immune response. I expect I'll also feel not-so-good tomorrow, but I'm OK with that.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
reader50
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Oct 22, 2021, 06:38 PM
 
Sounds very similar to the 2nd shot reactions. I was wondering if it would be worse.
     
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Oct 23, 2021, 10:36 AM
 
So far I just feel a little blah. By this time after shot #2, I had a fever and mild chills. So far, so good, I guess.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
ghporter
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Oct 24, 2021, 06:27 PM
 
Well this morning I felt fine, and the day has been fine too. I guess I managed the booster OK.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Oct 28, 2021, 09:09 PM
 
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 29, 2021, 10:32 AM
 
agh florida

Both the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the American Academy of Pediatrics endorse universal masking in schools to prevent transmission of the pandemic coronavirus and to protect children, teachers, and staff. Studies published last month by the CDC concluded that schools with universal masking were 3.5 times less likely to have a COVID-19 outbreak. Additionally, masked school districts saw 50 percent lower rates of child COVID-19 in their counties than schools without mask requirements.
     
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Oct 29, 2021, 11:08 AM
 
And I, you’re talking logic. Florida’s governor needs to be (aside from “committed to a mental institution”) forced to do the right thing. Dock ALL federal funding of anything in Florida, and suddenly this guy will either “change his mind” or be run out of office. Not because it’s the right thing to do, but because suddenly it hits the pocketbook of every business on the state.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Oct 29, 2021, 12:08 PM
 
I dunno. As much as I want him to have his comeuppance, I feel like pulling all federal money would mostly hurt people who, frankly, DeSantis doesn't give a shit about.
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 29, 2021, 01:17 PM
 
or backfire with his supporters in the state who are already big govt conspiracy theorists.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Oct 29, 2021, 01:30 PM
 
Just got my Moderna booster. Left arm is still attached.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 29, 2021, 09:26 PM
 
I could get a booster in Japan now, I reckon. I wonder if there is any recommendation on how long I should wait?
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reader50
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Oct 30, 2021, 02:22 AM
 
From what I've read, the recommendation is: at least six months after completing your initial shot(s). Unless you are immunocompromised, in which case the "booster" could be called a regular shot. That you just needed another exposure to reach acceptable immunity levels.

Or get a booster if you're very old, or work in a high-risk environment. I don't recall what the recommended wait time is for these groups.
     
Laminar
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Nov 2, 2021, 08:26 AM
 
Here's the current recommendations from the county:

     
Laminar
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Nov 2, 2021, 08:29 AM
 
When I got my first shot, I was eligible because based on my BMI I'm "overweight," and that was one of the allowed criteria. This time around I definitely wouldn't say I'm at high risk of severe COVID, but you could argue that I live and work in high risk settings - two unvaccinated kids, one of whom already brought COVID home and gave it to all of us, plus working in person every day around a significant unvaccinated population.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 2, 2021, 08:46 AM
 
Even though I'm under 65, the tech giving me my booster agreed I qualified under the "at home or work" criteria, as my wife works for a home healthcare company and has been dealing with breast cancer. Never mind that she's office staff and largely works at home.

Other friends' experiences indicate that if you want the booster, you can get it regardless. They just want people vaccinated, even if it means a wink-wink agreement about your qualification. One friend told me they weren't even asked about qualifying criteria for the booster.
     
MacNNFamous
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Nov 2, 2021, 10:05 AM
 
Just got a booster yesterday, since my GF is immunocompromised seemed like a good idea. Arm seems way more sore from this 1/2 moderna than either of the pfizers...
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 2, 2021, 12:16 PM
 
Just scheduled the booster and a flu shot at the same time. Thx for reminder.
     
reader50
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Nov 2, 2021, 12:48 PM
 
Lady fighting breast cancer. Her doctor tells her to get the vaccine.

Her husband says he'll divorce her if she gets vaccinated. He gulped the cool aid during the pandemic or something. At the start, he was taking all the precautions, following the expert advice. Then ... something. Maybe he discovered the Truth With Tucker Carlson.



The divorce is in progress.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 2, 2021, 02:24 PM
 
he thinks "the vaccine will shed and spread to him and alter his DNA."

bye felix.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 2, 2021, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
he thinks "the vaccine will shed and spread to him and alter his DNA."
It’s perplexing to me how one comes to the life decision that “vaccine will shed and spread to him and alter his DNA” will be the reality you live in, and not “vaccine will help protect me from the virus”. I know this will sound really naive, but, are people genuinely this stupid now?
     
Laminar
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Nov 2, 2021, 04:34 PM
 
Maybe people have been so primed over the years to distrust the government that they're ready and willing to accept any "counter" narrative, no matter how stupid?
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 2, 2021, 05:06 PM
 
I guess. But, there’s “stupid” and then there’s “so batshit insane stupid it can’t be measured”, and I think a not-inconsequential chunk of the populace have embraced the latter and given it a big, sloppy kiss. It would be hilarious if it weren’t so frightening.
     
ghporter
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Nov 2, 2021, 10:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Lady fighting breast cancer. Her doctor tells her to get the vaccine.

Her husband says he'll divorce her if she gets vaccinated. He gulped the cool aid during the pandemic or something. At the start, he was taking all the precautions, following the expert advice. Then ... something. Maybe he discovered the Truth With Tucker Carlson.



The divorce is in progress.
Certain people look for an excuse to bail out of a marriage that is now “kinda complicated.” Cancer is that sort of complication.

It’s not very common with early stage breast cancer, compared to cancers in general - about 1.6-5% versus about 11%, particularly of men bailing on women.

There is much Flavor-Aid involved in the antivax world, though. This sounds like, despite the stress and hardship she’ll face, she’s, as Dear Abby would say “better off without him.”

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 10, 2021, 09:35 PM
 
The home health company my wife works for issued their vaccination mandate to emloyees today. Employees have the choice of either being vaccinated or get tested weekly (at their own expense.) Three caregivers quit almost immediately. One caregiver, whose boyfriend died from covid, refuses to get vaccinated.

One of the office staff says she won’t do either the vax or the test. Her reason for not getting tested is her belief that the nasal swabs shove chemicals up your nose. Another one of the office staff, who also refuses to be vaccinated, is trying real hard to claim a religious exemption against the weekly testing, despite having been tested earlier in the summer.

The stupid runs deep.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 12, 2021, 05:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Lady fighting breast cancer. Her doctor tells her to get the vaccine.

Her husband says he'll divorce her if she gets vaccinated. He gulped the cool aid during the pandemic or something. At the start, he was taking all the precautions, following the expert advice. Then ... something. Maybe he discovered the Truth With Tucker Carlson.



The divorce is in progress.
I applaud the choice to divorce but couldn't she have just gotten jabbed without telling the idiot? Doesn't seem like he'd be too tricky to outfox.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 12, 2021, 08:07 PM
 
@Waragainstsleep
I don‘t think lying is a good option. Apparently the rift was deep enough that her husband did not accept her choice.
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MacNNFamous
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Nov 15, 2021, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Maybe people have been so primed over the years to distrust the government that they're ready and willing to accept any "counter" narrative, no matter how stupid?
They're generally townies/failures who never went anywhere, so they want to believe 'something' that proves they're smarter than the status quo, and that their lack of success isn't because they're dumbfucks or didn't try, it's because of the 'liberal elite' or 'immigrants' or 'black people' or etc etc etc etc.

That's the thing tho. Fixing income inequality and bolstering the middle class is the BEST WAY to fight this bullshit, because whenever people are in poverty/bad situations, they will be looking for an excuse, and Fox is more than happy to shovel scapegoats at them.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 24, 2021, 03:11 AM
 
I have got something to cheer you up.

It's been almost two years and I haven't entered into any discussions with anti-vaxxers and the like. This was the second comment to my first post:
Originally Posted by Random Conspiracy Theorist
Well, unlike any western nation, Japan is ruled by local natives. Our nations are conquered and our governments are occupation forces.
I kid you not.
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Laminar
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Nov 24, 2021, 10:18 AM
 
I don't think I shared this yet. My dad (asthmatic since childhood) chose to get vaccinated while my mom (spends too much time on Facebook) chose not to. In October we went to visit them (outdoors) and talked about her getting vaccinated and how that was a condition for seeing us over the holidays. Two weeks later, boom she's in the hospital with Covid. Fortunately my dad did not get it - yay for shots.

Three days later they sent her home with oxygen, as far as I know she's better now. She also heard from someone she donates blood with that since she had Covid she's good for a year and doesn't need the shot, so she's still not planning on getting it.

We still opted out of Thanksgiving since we assumed my younger sister and her husband are unvaccinated, as they're the type to whine on Facebook about how unfairly the media treats Trump. Plus I'm working all weekend and don't want to put my wife through dealing with my family alone. My mom was still trying to pressure my wife to come even though I couldn't make it, then all of a sudden two days ago BOOM sister and her husband get Covid, Thanksgiving is cancelled. Also, instead of going to their doctor or a testing center, they went to Wal-Mart to buy at-home tests. I hope they at least masked. She tested positive, his came back inconclusive, which is basically positive.



Those of you with sharp minds may remember that Thanksgiving last year is when my immediate family caught Covid, and our decision not to do Thanksgiving in person is what stopped us from spreading it to my entire family since at that point we were contagious but not yet symptomatic. It's wild how all of our decisions continue to be validated.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 24, 2021, 01:56 PM
 
sounds like you dodged a bullet and are doing a good job keeping your fam safe. No medical official I know is saying that having had covid grants immunity but the rumor is out there. If they do a walmart test at home, there's no tracing in place to let contacts know! Record keeping etc!

11am this morning the school nurse sends an email to my husband. Not me. Someone in my kids's close contact (2 shots high school freshman) tested positive. Monitor for 14 days.

So now what? We were supposed to go to a friend's for thanksgiving. Cancel? Everyone is vax'd who will be there.

JFK if only everyone in school over 12 had the shot. New england cases are rising.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 24, 2021, 07:38 PM
 
Ugh, that really sucks. My sister is going through this with her bf. In every other respect, he’s a great guy, but he’s not sure about the vaccine, because “long-term risks aren’t known yet”. He’s afraid of getting myocarditis, a very rare complication. The probability of getting myocarditis of a side-effect of a Covid infection is much higher. Unfortunately, he seems to be pressuring my sister by repeatedly saying that if he catches Covid it is her fault. (She is fully vaccinated, but has to come to the office. She moved to France for him, and the people in her office don’t seem to be very much concerned with minimizing the spread by opening the windows regularly, etc. He mostly works from home, but also goes shopping, etc.) Ugh, I hate this.

Meanwhile, I am not allowed to see my newborn in the hospital. Japan is really weird: they are very strict in some ways (no visitors, including the father since in their mind, the maternity ward is only for women and babies). But totally stupid in others. My wife had to do a Covid test a week-and-a-half in advance before admission. When I went to the hospital to pick up paper work (in order to apply for a birth certificate), I was not tested. They didn’t even take my temperature (they do have thermometers, but people can just walk past them). I’m quite frustrated.
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Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 24, 2021, 08:14 PM
 
Wait. What? You had a baby??? Did I miss an announcement?????
     
OreoCookie
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
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Nov 24, 2021, 08:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Wait. What? You had a baby??? Did I miss an announcement?????
Thanks
Nope, you didn’t miss anything. I wanted to announce it, but our daughter kept me busy. Our son was born this Monday, and I have to babysit our daughter outside of day care hours. I barely have any time for myself. She’s a bit on the edge since her mom isn’t here. She threw a tamper tantrum at 3 am out of the blue two nights ago … 

Everybody is healthy as far as I can tell. Although I feel I am a bit out of the loop.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
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Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
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Nov 24, 2021, 08:22 PM
 
Congratulations!!!!
     
reader50
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
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Nov 24, 2021, 09:02 PM
 
Enjoy your sleep when you can get it. 3 AM wakeup alarms notwithstanding.
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
When I went to the hospital to pick up paper work (in order to apply for a birth certificate), I was not tested.
Um, issuing a birth certificate should be automatic. What happens if no one applies for the birth certificate?

Does the baby become an unlisted person, free from government demands (and invisible to Skynet)? Or does the hospital confiscate the uncertified baby? If so, what happens to confiscated babies? Are we talking a Soylent situation here, or are they raised as secret government assassins?
     
OAW
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Nov 25, 2021, 10:18 AM
 
Congratulations OreoCookie!

OAW
     
 
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