[sek929]

It's ok, I'll carry your child Shif.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

Unless they have ginger kids.

My wife is a redhead. I thank God often that my kids didn't end up gingers.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I did not misspeak, most career women are very selfish.

Are most career minded men not selfish?

[shifuimam]

Well, men are supposed to bring in the money. Women, on the other hand, are cause for suspicion if they're not married and popping out babies by the time they're 30.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Are most career minded men not selfish?

Yup. Nope.

EDIT: I mean they are usually selfish.

[Dakar V]

So why make the gender distinction?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Well, men are supposed to bring in the money. Women, on the other hand, are cause for suspicion if they're not married and popping out babies by the time they're 30.

Do you feel that way?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

So why make the gender distinction?

Because the OP is a female and we are talking about her life.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Because the OP is a female and we are talking about her life.

Nah, I just wanted to find out who else saw childfreedom as an option.

[Railroader]

I was going to quote Laminar's post earlier as an example about how men can be the same way, but I wasn't sure if he was mocking/baiting me or not.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Why? What makes it okay for a male to be career-minded, but it's not okay for a woman to be career-minded? Is it morally wrong for a woman to focus on her career instead of procreating?

Did I say any of those things?

[rereads thread]

Nope!

Why are you implying I said those things?

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Yup. Nope.

EDIT: I mean they are usually selfish.

It was from this post, which seemed to indicate such sentiment, until you edited it (which was after I posted what you quoted).

Just some bad timing. Sorry.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I probably misrepresented myself in my original post.

I'm not asking for advice on whether or not to have kids....

I was just curious to see if anyone else here was deliberately childfree, and if not, what your thoughts were on procreating in general.

Ah. Different idea altogether!

My wife's sister and her husband, my age and a bit older, don't have kids. It just wasn't something they felt they needed to do. Because of that, they have a lot more flexibility in their lives-and have had that the entire time my wife and I were pretty much tied to caring for our son. And yes, we've been a little jealous of them for that now and then.

You sound like you've thought this through quite thoroughly. My congratulations. Deciding NOT to have children is important because it means you actively decided-most people don't think farther than their next soda, and you can see what it does to society. I see a whole lot of DNA donors parents who really should have kept to their selfish and childish ways and not had children at all, and a lot of that group actually HAD their children for selfish reasons. (Note: babies are NOT just for dressing up, and if you treat your child the way a teenager would treat a "friend" you may wind up in the least expensive nursing home in the country. I'm just sayin'...)

[finboy]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

An annoyance of something is not cause for therapy.

It has nothing to do with gender, lifestyle choice, etc. There is no expectation that anyone have kids anymore. In fact, I know plenty of folks who should be encouraged to never have kids. Or have them again.

I was suggesting that if something (irrationally) annoys you, then it might be something to seek counseling for. It sounded like a big deal to you, that's all.

If you feel really touchy & defensive about this (bringing up all that irrelevant stuff & posting in the first place kinda gives it away), that may indicate some other things that you should bring up with a professional.

This is the Intraweb -- we can only help so much.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Ah. Different idea altogether!

My wife's sister and her husband, my age and a bit older, don't have kids. It just wasn't something they felt they needed to do. Because of that, they have a lot more flexibility in their lives-and have had that the entire time my wife and I were pretty much tied to caring for our son. And yes, we've been a little jealous of them for that now and then.

That's one of the factors behind my choice, although it's minor compared to other reasons. There are things I want to do with my life that rely on me not being strapped down by one or more children.

I see a whole lot of DNA donors parents who really should have kept to their selfish and childish ways and not had children at all, and a lot of that group actually HAD their children for selfish reasons.

I'm curious - do you think that people can remain childfree for unselfish reasons? I mean, obviously, the decision to not sign your life away for at least eighteen years caring for another human being is going to be primarily driven by your own desires - but I think that it's not an entirely self-serving decision...

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by finboy 

I was suggesting that if something (irrationally) annoys you, then it might be something to seek counseling for. It sounded like a big deal to you, that's all.

Why? It's not exclusively irrational to be annoyed by children. I don't like cleaning up my own messes, let alone someone else's. Crying babies annoy the bejeebus out of me - much the way that any distracting, repetitive noise is annoying to anyone. Is it irrational to be annoyed by a yipping dog? I mean, the dog isn't exactly barking to deliberately annoy you...yet it can still be found to be quite irritating. That's not a sign of a mental problem or repressed psychological defect. It's a normal human response to an irritant.

[abbaZaba]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I'm curious - do you think that people can remain childfree for unselfish reasons?

yeah, if you are born sterile. duh

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I'm curious - do you think that people can remain childfree for unselfish reasons?

I don't see why not when so many seem to have children for selfish reasons.

Yeah, I said it. Parenting itself may be a selfless act (when done properly) but I don't think it is too far off base to suggest that many (especially the younger) people go into the whole thing for their own selfish desires and no thought about whether they are their lives are suitable for the raising of children.

Furthermore, I don't have a problem with people who remain childless for selfish reasons. So what? In what way is this detrimental to anyone? Have we got a shortage of people now that I haven't heard about?

[nonhuman]

The only reason that I feel any motivation to have kids at all is because I feel like my wife and I could do a much better job at raising a kid(s) than the majority of parents we see. But I'm not a very competitive person, so that's not much of a motivation for me.

[andi*pandi]

I'd held enough other people's babies and been the good aunt and knew I wanted children. I married late enough that I hadn't been sure I'd ever have the chance for my own.

Baby #1 I wanted, started planning right after marriage, was excited and happy about.

Baby #2 I longed for, cried for, tried for 3 years for. I tried telling myself I didn't need more, that I should be happy with one, but something inside me yearned.

Now I have two, I love them both, and no more yearning.

If you don't have the yearning, don't worry about it. I like your idea of sponsoring children's charities in other countries.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I'm curious - do you think that people can remain childfree for unselfish reasons?

Absolutely. My sister-in-law and her husband very carefully thought through being parents. They decided that, as much as they love kids (and they do), they would not be particularly good parents. This at a time in their relationship when they had no idea they'd be successful in their professions, at a time when they had little to be selfish about. Conversely, there are, as I mentioned above, a lot of people who become parents for selfish reasons. The worst are the ones who use their children as pawns in divorce situations-Dante needs to invent a new, special circle for these life forms (I can't call them people).

It's all about the personalities involved. Altruistic people who think things through can do anything they wish to do unselfishly-or roll in selfishness now and then.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I was going to quote Laminar's post earlier as an example about how men can be the same way, but I wasn't sure if he was mocking/baiting me or not.

No ill-intent. I was being serious.

[Timo]

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to have kids.

There's also nothing wrong with being flexible in your attitude towards kids.

[slugslugslug]

I like kids in small doses, and my wife can handle slightly bigger doses, but neither of us want ones of our own. That sentiment has gone unchanged in me for 17 or 18 years. So I got a vasectomy.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Haha - not if I'm sterilized first. I've put more thought into my choice not to have children than just about any other decision I've made in my life thus far. I'm vehemently against it - telling me that I'll change my mind some day is like telling me that I'll vote Democrat some day, or that I'll turn to atheism some day. It's just not going to happen. I have zero interest in carrying around a child in my body for nine months (note that most of you here are men; your responsibility before the actual birth is just to inseminate your woman so that she can carry around seven pounds of parasitic flesh for more than half a year), and even less interest in pushing a bowling ball through my vag.

Reading that, and judging from the obvious fact that you have yet to meet a man who isn't a complete sleazebag I think it's probably a responsible decision for you never to have kids.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I have one birth daughter and three current foster daughters. I did not misspeak, most career women are very selfish.

You have issues dude. Get some counseling before you screw up the little girls in your life. I can't believe there is an organization in existence that would let someone with your attitudes towards women raise girls- or even pass this misogyny on to boys.

I suppose it's people's right to pass on their hateful world views on to their own kids, but to disadvantaged kids that are likely to have self-esteem issues to begin with? That's sad.

EDIT- I should clarify why I feel so strongly about this. It may seem like an innocuous statement to RR and perhaps the rest of you, but I'm reading it as a negative stereotype that implies an underlying resentment towards women. You state that most career women are selfish as a matter of fact. I think most reasonable people would agree that this is not the case, but certainly you have no evidence for this. If you has said "most career women I have known well enough to form an opinion on are selfish" I would still think this was more a refection of your own prejudices than an honest assessment of the women, but you could be right- I don't know any of the career women you know. But you don't know most women. You've come into contact with a tiny portion of the working women in the world. Your statement is one of bias, not fact.

Girls have it difficult in this world and I think it's getting worse. Telling little girls that if they want a career they are selfish only adds to the ridiculous pressures they face in this world. I don't know if my 5 year old daughter will eventually want a career or will choose to stay home and raise her kids like her mom. But that will be her choice and I- and I hope society- will support her. If she had an authoritative male figure in her life sharing your views with her- belittling her and trying to limit her- I would be both sad and angry. The world is hard enough for little girls. Their dads and carers should not make it harder.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Reading that, and judging from the obvious fact that you have yet to meet a man who isn't a complete sleazebag I think it's probably a responsible decision for you never to have kids.

Uh, what?

I've been in a relationship with the opposite of a sleazebag for nearly six months.

Where in the world did you get the impression that I have "yet to meet a man who isn't a complete sleazebag"...?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Uh, what?

I've been in a relationship with the opposite of a sleazebag for nearly six months.

Where in the world did you get the impression that I have "yet to meet a man who isn't a complete sleazebag"...?

This bit here is quite the tip-off:

Originally Posted by shifuimam

your responsibility before the actual birth is just to inseminate your woman so that she can carry around seven pounds of parasitic flesh for more than half a year

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I have one birth daughter and three current foster daughters. I did not misspeak, most career women are very selfish.

Depends on the "career" and the woman. My mom was a "career" commercial artist, and there wasn't a selfish bone in her body. My wife is a "career" nurse-you can't be a good nurse and actively be selfish. Every one of the "career" military people I know is at least "a lot" unselfish, and most are so altruistic it isn't even funny. About half of these military people are women...

Now if you're talking about the business world, that's another matter entirely. It seems like almost EVERYONE with a business degree is either a megalomaniac or a wannabe, with everything about THEM all the time. Their vision, their corporate plan, etc., etc. The thing is, most business majors never really understand that all they do is package and market what creative people produce, or manage what professionals like physicians, nurses and therapists do. Selfish self-deception is what I see in business. But so far, ONLY in business.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

This bit here is quite the tip-off:

Actually, that's an opinion I came to all by my little self.

Of the four long-term relationships I've been in, only one of them was with a jerk, and even he wasn't really a "sleazebag".

It is a fact, however, that the pregnancy period is far more stressful on the woman - she's the one who has to carry around the extra weight and deal with the massive hormonal and physiological changes to her body. All the guy has to do is go shopping when she has cravings and drive her to the obstetrician's office for checkups and ultrasounds.

[Spheric Harlot]

Like I said, the assumption is that the guy is an irresponsible jerk, whose entire responsibility beyond the insemination is to go shopping and drive her to the obs' office.

Of course, if that's all you expect of a guy, then you're not going to notice. I do understand how that expectation would contribute to not wanting kids, though.

In all seriousness: your painting fathers as men whose sense of responsibility (and involvement) ends after a good **** and doesn't begin again until the kid's old enough to hold a sensible conversation about auto mechanics is somewhat offensive, though quite revealing.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Because the OP is a female and we are talking about her life.

Sorry, it just came off as an unnecessary (if not sexist) qualifier to me.

[paul w]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

It is a fact, however, that the pregnancy period is far more stressful on the woman - she's the one who has to carry around the extra weight and deal with the massive hormonal and physiological changes to her body. All the guy has to do is go shopping when she has cravings and drive her to the obstetrician's office for checkups and ultrasounds.

You may have a point, but it's not like being pregnant is some horrible disease. And geez, you do sure go on about the weight thing too.

you're right though, those obgyn appointments, and the whole being there for my wife thing, taking care of stuff in preparation for the baby and so on was kind of a drag...

[harbinger75]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Yes or no? I decided when I was still a kid that I didn't want kids - I'm going to be 25 in less than a month, and that sentiment hasn't changed. People think there's something wrong with me for wanting to be childfree.

So what about the rest of 'NN? How do you feel about kids? Do you have them? Did you want to have them when they were actually born? Did you think about your preference for children before you got married?

I'm 33, and between my wife and I, we have 5 beautiful daughters (2 are mine from my previous marriage, 3 are hers from her previous marriage). When I was a teenager, I knew I'd be a dad someday, and that didn't bother me one bit. My (then) fiancee' and I got pregnant a tad bit early, and BOOM™! I was a dad at 19. So, I knew it was to be within the next few years from the time I was a teen, but not that early.

Now, however, there are some days where my wife and I realize we may not have been ideal candidates for parenthood. It is challenging, there is no manual, you'll frequently want to pinch their heads off and there will be many, many sleepless nights. But, all that aside, it is simply one of the most rewarding things I've ever experienced in my life.

I love our five daughters with all my heart, and I can't wait to see what good they'll (hopefully) do for the world. It's great to talk with them, and they share all of the cool things they want to do when they grow up. We encourage them to be what it is that makes them happy in life and not necessarily what everybody else tells them they need to be, and that puts a smile on their face and earns us some sweet "Cool Parents Points."

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Like I said, the assumption is that the guy is an irresponsible jerk, whose entire responsibility beyond the insemination is to go shopping and drive her to the obs' office.

Of course, if that's all you expect of a guy, then you're not going to notice. I do understand how that expectation would contribute to not wanting kids, though.

In all seriousness: your painting fathers as men whose sense of responsibility (and involvement) ends after a good **** and doesn't begin again until the kid's old enough to hold a sensible conversation about auto mechanics is somewhat offensive, though quite revealing.

No, I'm just pointing out that pregnancy is exponentially harder on the woman than on the man.

Yeah, the father has to do stuff in preparation for the birth, but he's not the one hauling around the extra weight (which is a huge part of pregnancy - try strapping a seven-pound bowling ball to your abdomen and carrying it around for nine months straight, 24 hours a day), and he's not the one who's going to have to shove the thing through the birth canal. He won't get morning sickness, swollen ankles, food cravings, huge hormone-induced mood swings, and there's no risk of him having to be put on bed rest for weeks or months before the birth. He can still drink alcohol if he wants, or have coffee in the morning, or take medication when he needs it, because the stuff going into his body isn't being distributed to another human being.

I'm not saying that the father has no role in the pregnancy other than creating the thing - but I don't think that any guy will ever truly appreciate or understand the toll that pregnancy takes on the woman, because it's something you simply cannot experience.

[Spheric Harlot]

Well, you know, it's not like *you* have any authority on the subject at all, is it?

(From what I gather, the weight is really the least of it, even if you keep harping on the subject.)

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

No, I'm just pointing out that pregnancy is exponentially harder on the woman than on the man.

Yeah, the father has to do stuff in preparation for the birth, but he's not the one hauling around the extra weight (which is a huge part of pregnancy - try strapping a seven-pound bowling ball to your abdomen and carrying it around for nine months straight, 24 hours a day), and he's not the one who's going to have to shove the thing through the birth canal. He won't get morning sickness, swollen ankles, food cravings, huge hormone-induced mood swings, and there's no risk of him having to be put on bed rest for weeks or months before the birth.

That must be one hell of a sperm and egg combination that weighs 7 pounds at conception.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Well, you know, it's not like *you* have any authority on the subject at all, is it?

(From what I gather, the weight is really the least of it, even if you keep harping on the subject.)

No, I don't have any experience with it, but I do know enough about it, and I still stand by the opinion that a man can't ever really appreciate what the woman is going through, simply because he can't actually experience it for himself. You can empathize with your wife when she's pregnant, but I doubt there's any father out there who wasn't at least a little grateful he wasn't the one carrying the thing.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

That must be one hell of a sperm and egg combination that weighs 7 pounds at conception.

They've been on HGH.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

He won't get morning sickness, swollen ankles, food cravings

Clearly you have never met my father.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

No, I don't have any experience with it, but I do know enough about it, and I still stand by the opinion that a man can't ever really appreciate what the woman is going through, simply because he can't actually experience it for himself. You can empathize with your wife when she's pregnant, but I doubt there's any father out there who wasn't at least a little grateful he wasn't the one carrying the thing.

Gratefulness is fine. So is empathy. And picking up root beer and ice cream from the store, and giving back rubs, and just being there and being supportive.

A true test of a man is one who can stand by you in childbirth, and not be a wuss. No battlefield trench could be as intense.

Haven't we had this children conversation before? It feels familiar. Why keep bringing it up unless you have doubts?

[paul w]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

No, I don't have any experience with it, but I do know enough about it, and I still stand by the opinion that a man can't ever really appreciate what the woman is going through, simply because he can't actually experience it for himself. You can empathize with your wife when she's pregnant, but I doubt there's any father out there who wasn't at least a little grateful he wasn't the one carrying the thing.

Jeez what kind of bs are you spouting...

Being pregnant is not necessarily a horrible thing!!!!! My wife loved being pregnant! She refers to it as the most incredible period of her life - capped off by the birth, which while being no picnic, was something she's still amazed by.

And so what if the guy doesn't have to go through it? Generally a pregnant women who has man that loves her and is there for her is happier for it.

edit: what andi said^

[ghporter]

A truly involved expectant father goes through almost everything the mother does. If he doesn't actually have his center of gravity change, he is most sympathetic when she experiences the relatively sudden back and knee discomfort that causes. And HE DOES SUFFER FROM THE HORMONAL SHIFTS. Guaranteed. Not from experiencing the shift themselves, but from "being there for her" while she does. Sometimes the fallout can be pretty serious, too.

Expectations about "expecting" are enormously shaped by one's personal contacts. Studies have shown that women who are exposed to "horror show" stories from older women who are already mothers tend to have a worse time with pregnancies and deliveries than those whose female acquaintances minimized the difficulties and discomforts. Basically, what you "expect," based on what other people have told you, will establish what you experience. My personal experience as a "pregnancy observer" is consistent with this information. You may have some nausea in the second and third month, but most people find that this is both transient and easily managed. Swollen ankles happen to everyone, and in pregnant women it's more from failing to attend to the body's signals to sit down now and then. Food cravings? I've never talked to anyone who had anything more than "a taste for..." some out of the ordinary food.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

Haven't we had this children conversation before? It feels familiar. Why keep bringing it up unless you have doubts?

No idea. Although I do wish that threads I start didn't always end up being about me.

...

I really mean that. What the hell, guys. I just wanted to know who else saw childfreedom as a viable option. Those who do are in the minority, for sure.

[Dakar V]

It occurs to me, I've never heard of a pregnant woman going on a killing spree.

[paul w]

Ooh something to google!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

A truly involved expectant father goes through almost everything the mother does. If he doesn't actually have his center of gravity change, he is most sympathetic when she experiences the relatively sudden back and knee discomfort that causes. And HE DOES SUFFER FROM THE HORMONAL SHIFTS. Guaranteed. Not from experiencing the shift themselves, but from "being there for her" while she does. Sometimes the fallout can be pretty serious, too.

Actually, there is evidence that the father's hormonal balance shifts along with the expecting mother's. It's a real phenomenon, and empirically measurable, as well.

Oh, and FWIW, my wife never experienced the morning nausea. She had one or two mornings of ever-so-slight upset stomach, but nothing that you wouldn't see as completely normal even if you weren't coming down with any disease or something.

No bizarre cravings, either.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

No, I don't have any experience with it, but I do know enough about it, and I still stand by the opinion that a man can't ever really appreciate what the woman is going through, simply because he can't actually experience it for himself. You can empathize with your wife when she's pregnant, but I doubt there's any father out there who wasn't at least a little grateful he wasn't the one carrying the thing.

By that same logic you can't really appreciate it either since you also have no idea what it is like.

My wife loves being pregnant but it's tough. We just passed 32 weeks and just living life is starting to get hard for her. She is quickly approaching near uselessness.

Her pregnancy has been pretty ideal also. Almost no morning sickness, no gestational diabetes, no swollen feet... she does have pregnancy induced Carpal Tunnel syndrome, but it seem manageable. The biggest problem is just lack of mobility and an overall lack of energy.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Actually, there is evidence that the father's hormonal balance shifts along with the expecting mother's. It's a real phenomenon, and empirically measurable, as well.

Oh, and FWIW, my wife never experienced the morning nausea. She had one or two mornings of ever-so-slight upset stomach, but nothing that you wouldn't see as completely normal even if you weren't coming down with any disease or something.

No bizarre cravings, either.

Then it sounds like neither of you have properly experienced pregnancy!

(No I don't actually mean that)

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

No idea. Although I do wish that threads I start didn't always end up being about me.

Well, if you start a thread about an intensely personal issue a whole lot of people - including yourself - feel strongly about, and flesh it out by spouting complete bullshit, don't act surprised when people call you on it.