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Voodoo and 9/11 (Page 2)
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voodoo
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Dec 5, 2003, 06:59 AM
 
Originally posted by zigzag:
At first I thought voodoo was being the drama queen - after all, the photo featured the WTC, which fell ten months later in a rather notable fashion. But his explanation made me realize that it wasn't the mention of the WTC, but the tone of it, the dramatic use of the ellipsis. On that basis, I can understand his reaction, the feeling that Americans and New Yorkers think the world revolves around them and that the unique awfulness of their experience goes without saying. But it's also possible that (a) NYCFarmboy was affected by the incident in a particularly personal way, or (b) NYCFarmboy didn't intend to be dramatic at all, he just happened to put it down that way because he thought the significance of the photo was self-evident.

So, it's understandable from either direction. In any case I doubt NYCFarmboy ever thought his post would attain such importance.
Thank you! Yes that pretty much sums up why I replied to NYC Farmboys post to begin with. I bet he's laughing his socks off seeing how I reacted to his post and others to mine! Quite the chain reaction.

Well, carry on if you like but I'd say the case is closed. There isn't any argument here and all sides have been represented.

Don't forget what happened back in september 11th 2001. I won't. Don't fear it though. That is the way terrorism works. Make something small seem so horrible that everybody reacts. Fear is the mind killer.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
theolein
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Dec 5, 2003, 07:32 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
...
First of all: theolein said "Don't be like that person that everyone loves to hate, who doesn't know when to stop or when to start." in the pictures thread

....

So if that is ok with you theolein, I'll respond here in this thread. (ps. theolein I know you'll always love to hate me )

...
You read me quite wrong. This section of MacNN is for politics/war etc and the Lounge proper isn't. Your post was quite inflammatory, IMO, and unlike the Political Lounge, threads get locked more rapidly there once they degenerate into the usual MacNN Flamewar�.

I for one have gotten tired of this section of MacNN, as it so often just seems to revolve around the same people taking the same old tiring positions and arguing about them, with nothing ever changing much. It's why I recently started posting in the Lounge proper again, as threads there are sometimes at least humourous.

I was enjoying the picture thread, and when NYCFarmboy posted a picture of himself in front of the WTC, which I for one saw immediatley, I can understand an American looking at that photo and at least make a passing comment on the WTC, which is all he did. It's his country, and he is proud of his country and perhaps he feels differently about it than you do?

Timo was much wiser in starting this thread here, as this is where a discussion on the WTC belongs. I was more irritated because I felt your post was totally out of place, and that is so common of The Person Everyone Loves To Hate�.

What I truly wish, although I know it is all but impossible and that I am as guilty as the next person, is that we could actually learn from one another on this section of the board. That we could actually try to take an interest in the WHY of a person's position and LISTEN (ok, read) instead of our usual pontificating.

Sigh.
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lil'babykitten
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Dec 5, 2003, 09:19 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:

I for one have gotten tired of this section of MacNN, as it so often just seems to revolve around the same people taking the same old tiring positions and arguing about them, with nothing ever changing much. It's why I recently started posting in the Lounge proper again, as threads there are sometimes at least humourous.

...

What I truly wish, although I know it is all but impossible and that I am as guilty as the next person, is that we could actually learn from one another on this section of the board. That we could actually try to take an interest in the WHY of a person's position and LISTEN (ok, read) instead of our usual pontificating.
My thoughts exactly.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Dec 5, 2003, 09:37 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I do not contradict myself here. I was rather pointing towards something else here. People think it was the first and only attack of this scope. This isn't true. The people of Tokyo were lucky, that's why they have only had 12 people killed, but several thousand injured ones. Properly carried out, the body count would have been in similar regions. So yes, this is in the same category as September 11th. Do you know how many millions of people take the subway of Tokyo each day? The attack was designed to kill a very large number of people, the body count being in the thousands. The Aum sect has professionally prepared this attack, being able to spend a lot of money. And (judging from the number of injured ones) it could have been a Japanese 9/11.
Donald Rumsfeld would agree with you. The "what if"you talk about is why the Metro system I use to go to work every day now has chemical weapons detectors in it. The US looked at the Tokyo attack when it happened and said that this could certainly happen here. Those kinds of fears are exactly why the US government since the Clinton Administration has been so concerned about the idea of terrorists getting WMD technology.

However, this is off topic. In this thread we are talking about the effect of an actual attack, that actually killed thousands, not hypotheticals, or failed intentions. Tokyo didn't suffer thousands of deaths, New York and Washington did. So again, its different.
     
Lerkfish
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Dec 5, 2003, 10:29 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
What I truly wish, although I know it is all but impossible and that I am as guilty as the next person, is that we could actually learn from one another on this section of the board. That we could actually try to take an interest in the WHY of a person's position and LISTEN (ok, read) instead of our usual pontificating.

Sigh.
well put.

I think learning requires the humility to accept that one's own position may be wrong.

the problem is not so much that there aren't intelligent people in the discussion, obviously there are. The problem is that few have the ability or willingness to see things from another's perspective, and respect that perspective as well as disagree with it.

IMHO, this is why the political lounge should have never been splintered off. At least, in the regular lounge, a thread could be leavened with some humor or even good natured ribbing, or a way of introducing some perspective to realize that taking this too importantly can be as harmful as not taking them importantly enough.

I think the intention was to avoid conflict in the main lounge by separating it here, but I have always felt both lounges suffer from it.
This one becomes too virulent and flamebaity and repetitive and obstinate, and the lounge loses some salt and vigor that used to spice it up.

I think, just as the victorians discovered when they tried to repress human sexuality, it will then force its way out in stronger, perhaps more perverted ways.
I think trying to repress political discussions has made the ability to discuss them here overly fractious and more conducive to thugs and bullying than real discourse.

I find it wearying and sometimes sisyphean. Although I sometimes learn from an opposing point of view, it requires a great deal more diligence to weed out the wheat from the chaff. the signal to noise ratio is at times deafening.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Dec 5, 2003, 11:05 AM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
IMHO, this is why the political lounge should have never been splintered off. . .

I think the intention was to avoid conflict in the main lounge by separating it here, but I have always felt both lounges suffer from it.
This one becomes too virulent and flamebaity and repetitive and obstinate, and the lounge loses some salt and vigor that used to spice it up.
I agree with all of your post above. I pick these two paragraphs out just for emphasis. I've always thought that splitting the pol topics off was a huge mistake. The fact that the flame wars got worse once that was done is not a coincidence.

See, we can agree on some things.
     
davesimondotcom
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Dec 5, 2003, 11:41 AM
 
Maybe if the Political War (notice lack of slash) Lounge was eliminated, we wouldn't have to suffer the demographic polling question threads like, "how many bones have you broken and how" and "what's your favorite number, color, and celtic knot."

<paranoia>In the back of my mind, I fear that someone like ankle_brains is really a pollster, collecting data on us all, storing it in a large database.
</paranoia>

It just seems to me that the signal to noise ratio in the main forum is now a noise to signal ratio...
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SimeyTheLimey
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Dec 5, 2003, 11:46 AM
 
Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
<paranoia>In the back of my mind, I fear that someone like ankle_brains is really a pollster, collecting data on us all, storing it in a large database.
</paranoia>
It's Admiral Poindexter.
     
daimoni
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Dec 5, 2003, 01:17 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 7, 2004 at 08:23 PM. )
     
voodoo
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Dec 5, 2003, 01:22 PM
 
I just realized that the thread topic may give Rumsfeld a reason to send troops to take over Haiti.
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christ
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Dec 5, 2003, 01:28 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
I just realized that the thread topic may give Rumsfeld a reason to send troops to take over Haiti.
I just had a picture of this guy sticking pins into rag dolls of the twin towers and the pentagon.

::dons flameproof underwear for daring frivolity::
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Sven G
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Dec 5, 2003, 01:49 PM
 
Originally posted by Timo:
[...] there was an ongoing and elaborate architectural debate of the World Trade Center that centered on the question "are these buildings horrible or really horrible?"
Horrible, the WTC?!?

I think the ex twin towers looked rather good: at least, they had some dignity and "modernity" in their architectural style. As for what they supposedly symbolized - well, that's another matter, of course!

Personally, I tend to prefer much of the '70s architecture over previous, definitely more "kitsch" achievings: for example, I find the Empire State Building (horrible, horrible name, BTW!) much uglier than the ex WTC...

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Timo  (op)
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Dec 5, 2003, 02:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Sven G:
Horrible, the WTC?!?

I think the ex twin towers looked rather good: at least, they had some dignity and "modernity" in their architectural style. As for what they supposedly symbolized - well, that's another matter, of course!

Personally, I tend to prefer much of the '70s architecture over previous, definitely more "kitsch" achievings: for example, I find the Empire State Building (horrible, horrible name, BTW!) much uglier than the ex WTC...
Amazing. Maybe 1 in 10 around here would see it that way -- but I understand that perspective.

Now there's some notable 70s architecture, but lots and lots of it IMHO is junk. It's not usually a decade fondly remembered.

cool perspective, SvenG
     
zigzag
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Dec 5, 2003, 02:14 PM
 
Originally posted by Sven G:
Horrible, the WTC?!?

I think the ex twin towers looked rather good: at least, they had some dignity and "modernity" in their architectural style. As for what they supposedly symbolized - well, that's another matter, of course!
They were very handsome in profile, very ugly up close. The worst of international-style-gone-ornamental/mental. Unfortunately, the guy who designed them worked out of Detroit and we still have to live with his creations:



     
Sven G
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Dec 5, 2003, 02:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Timo:
Amazing. Maybe 1 in 10 around here would see it that way -- but I understand that perspective.

Now there's some notable 70s architecture, but lots and lots of it IMHO is junk. It's not usually a decade fondly remembered.

cool perspective, SvenG
I think you mean the so-called "international style", etc...?

It's just a matter of personal taste: I like "modern" and "postmodern" architecture a lot more than the previous ones.

BTW, I don't understand so much the scandal with which many people today look at the '50s/'60s/'70s "demolishments" of past "historic" - but irrational and ugly, I'd add! - buildings (in New York, IIRC - correct me if I'm wrong!, - for example the old Penn Station): in this recent past maybe there was a too "iconoclastic" way of doing things, but at least there was a more socially-oriented vision than today. Today, OTOH, it's more a "preserve at any cost" (see also, eventually, the $$$!) whatever - even utter kitsch B$! - the (distant) past has given us: a complete exaggeration on the other front!

Of course, there should ideally be a dynamic balancement between past, present and future - but this seems a little difficult to achieve, in today's way too business-oriented context...

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
Beewee
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Dec 5, 2003, 02:27 PM
 
Originally posted by Timo:

Are Americans too melodramatic regarding the destruction in New York and Washington? Should we all just collectively "get over it"?
The short answer is for me is "Yes" on both counts.
Here is the Long answer.
People die all over the world ever single day. Not just one or two hundred but thousands in a variety of situations. There are wars or conflicts going on all the time and we as Americans so little or no sympathy to these people simply because they aren't getting shot or stabbed right in front of us.

Look at 9/11, it was horrible and aweful and blah...blah...blah. Is us constantly remembering a tragic event going to ease the pain of it? Does indefinite grieving solve anything or is it productive in anyway? I haven't heard Japan talk about: "Life in the Aftermath of the A-bombs." Yet I still hear Americans bitch and whine about Pearl Harbor,(after more than 10 years I consider it bitching and whining) And when I turn on the TV Tom Brokaw says: "Christmas in Post 9/11 American" Everything seems to be adjacent to 9/11... "America 2 years after 9/11." How about "Its Monday, in post 9/11 America." OR "People walking their dogs After the tragedy of 9/11."

America just seems to never forget what was done to us yet many countries have forgotten the atrocites that we have done to them.

So...GET OVER YOURSELF AMERICA.
     
Sven G
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Dec 5, 2003, 02:49 PM
 
Originally posted by zigzag:
They were very handsome in profile, very ugly up close. The worst of international-style-gone-ornamental/mental. Unfortunately, the guy who designed them worked out of Detroit and we still have to live with his creations [...]
Maybe you are right, in a way.

Anyway, just to make an example (and hoping not to derail this interesting thread too much) and to better illustrate what I mean, here are two examples of external facades of big train stations (I'm a train addict) in Italy - Milan Central and Naples Central:





Personally, I find Milan Central utterly kitsch (it was completed during the Fascist period, not surprisingly) and downright disgusting in its "imperial" (almost Assyrian-Babylonese!) style (and also a shame for a modern city like Milan to have such a station!) - while Naples Central is really cool and a joy to walk through, with it's modern and intelligently geometrical forms (it replaced, by a '50s demolishment, a former, antiquated building):



OTOH, Milan's second train station (which should really become the main one, hopefully, in the future), Milan Porta Garibaldi, is similar to the Naples one, and much more representative for a "modern" city (even if the towers above are actually in "postmodern" style):



(click for a more detailed image).

In a few words, (post)modern buildings are much more friendly and stimulating, IMHO - besides being much more representative of our current era (see also New York)...
( Last edited by Sven G; Dec 6, 2003 at 02:30 PM. )

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OreoCookie
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Dec 5, 2003, 03:09 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Donald Rumsfeld would agree with you. The "what if"you talk about is why the Metro system I use to go to work every day now has chemical weapons detectors in it. The US looked at the Tokyo attack when it happened and said that this could certainly happen here. Those kinds of fears are exactly why the US government since the Clinton Administration has been so concerned about the idea of terrorists getting WMD technology.

However, this is off topic. In this thread we are talking about the effect of an actual attack, that actually killed thousands, not hypotheticals, or failed intentions. Tokyo didn't suffer thousands of deaths, New York and Washington did. So again, its different.
No, it is not offtopic. I criticize the way America has dealt with its fear. Fear of something fictional (in the sense that it is often not related to 9/11).

And Japan didn't. Haven't heard of anything like it while I have been here. You haven't had something like this in your home country for centuries. (Unlike Japan and Europe.)
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SimeyTheLimey
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Dec 5, 2003, 03:50 PM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
No, it is not offtopic. I criticize the way America has dealt with its fear. Fear of something fictional (in the sense that it is often not related to 9/11).

And Japan didn't. Haven't heard of anything like it while I have been here. You haven't had something like this in your home country for centuries. (Unlike Japan and Europe.)
Where do you get that smugness?

Oh, wait. I'm forgetting. You live somewhere totally safe. Carry on.
     
zigzag
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Dec 5, 2003, 04:10 PM
 
Originally posted by Sven G:
I think you mean the so-called "international style", etc...?

It's just a matter of personal taste: I like "modern" and "postmodern" architecture a lot more than the previous ones.

BTW, I don't understand so much the scandal with which many people today look at the '50s/'60s/'70s "demolishments" of past "historic" - but irrational and ugly, I'd add! - buildings (in New York, IIRC - correct me if I'm wrong!, - for example the old Penn Station): in this recent past maybe there was a too "iconoclastic" way of doing things, but at least there was a more socially-oriented vision than today. Today, OTOH, it's more a "preserve at any cost" (see also, eventually, the $$$!) whatever - even utter kitsch B$! - the (distant) past has given us: a complete exaggeration on the other front!

Of course, there should ideally be a dynamic balancement between past, present and future - but this seems a little difficult to achieve, in today's way too business-oriented context...
I'm a modernist as well, at least to a point. People who disdain modernism forget that many of the buildings/homes that people now regard as charming (Victorian homes being a good example) were, in the 40's-60's, regarded as dark, dingy, disease-ridden, and dysfunctional. People couldn't wait to get out of them, nevermind the kitschy aesthetics. Modernism, for all its faults, was relatively more commodious, clean, and light. In the States, it didn't occur to anyone until the mid-60's that some of the old stuff was worth fixing up and preserving.

The problem is that (as usually happens with design trends), modernism often went too far the other way, creating functional but utterly inhumane (and in many cases very ugly) environments. I think it comes down to the fact that every era has its good buildings and its bad buildings, some are worth preserving and some aren't. As you say, a balance is usually best.

Anyway, this is both Timo's thread and Timo's specialty, so I won't detour it any further.
     
Timo  (op)
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Dec 5, 2003, 04:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Sven G:
BTW, I don't understand so much the scandal with which many people today look at the '50s/'60s/'70s "demolishments" of past "historic" - but irrational and ugly, I'd add! - buildings (in New York, IIRC - correct me if I'm wrong!, - for example the old Penn Station)
Heh, well, in Italy, where everytime you kick a cobblestone over you turn over Yet Another Piece of Antiquity -- sure, out with the old. I agree that needless and mindless preservation is an odd bugbear. Complying with arbitrary regulations in so-called "historic districts" is always bureaucratic and frequently onerous.

One point though: The old Penn Station was a very strong and distinguished building. The new "Penn Station" (really a series of buried concourses under an ugly arena) is a POS. I'm not sure anyone I know could construct a plausible argument as to why it's better than the old, except from a developer's $$$$ perspective.

Edit: ziggy, by all means carry on.
     
Sven G
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Dec 5, 2003, 04:42 PM
 
Originally posted by Timo:
The old Penn Station was a very strong and distinguished building. The new "Penn Station" (really a series of buried concourses under an ugly arena) is a POS.
I agree that the new Penn station is not the best possible solution - but neither do I like the old one too much, really! Anyway, there seems to be a project for partially restoring some form of "old" look and feel: not sure what this will result in, however.

As for an intelligent and beautiful example of "modernity with style", personally I would choose the new Berlin Central Station (on the site of the former Lehrter Bahnhof, near the new government offices) - really cool (by Von Gerkan, Marg & Partners):



OK - enough stations for now...
( Last edited by Sven G; Dec 7, 2003 at 06:04 AM. )

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daimoni
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Dec 5, 2003, 05:05 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 7, 2004 at 08:24 PM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 6, 2003, 01:25 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Where do you get that smugness?

Oh, wait. I'm forgetting. You live somewhere totally safe. Carry on.
Actually I forgot to update my info. I am living in Nagoya, Japan, right now. A big earthquake is expected (once every 100-120 years), there are tons of Taifuns each year ... and I'm still here.
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OreoCookie
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Dec 6, 2003, 08:23 AM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Hold on a sec... let me get this straight:

You criticize the way America has dealt with its fear.

So, tell us. Please, oh great and magnificent German. Please tell us how we should all feel.

Because you're the expert on the subject, right?

I mean, you singlehandedly hold the key to the way we should deal with things. You know the proper decorum. The correct way to cry. The way an expert would correctly blow ones nose into their handkerchief.

Because I really want to learn from you. I really really do.

Please help us. We're begging you.

:barf:
The first step is to let go of your (as in daimoni, not directed towards all Americans) humongous arrogance.

The second step is to shift down a few gears and become more patient. Take a look at history, be it American, or that of other countries. Especially the history of the last century (20th).
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SimeyTheLimey
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Dec 6, 2003, 10:11 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
The first step is to let go of your (as in daimoni, not directed towards all Americans) humongous arrogance.
Telling people how to handle their fear and grief is not arrogance?

Pot -- kettle.
     
voodoo
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Dec 6, 2003, 10:51 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Telling people how to handle their fear and grief is not arrogance?
When you think about it: No.
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Spheric Harlot
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Dec 6, 2003, 11:35 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Telling people how to handle their fear and grief is not arrogance?
I think it is fair to criticize an attitude of perpetual victim-status continually hyped and abused to justify bombing other countries.

I don't think anybody is denying Americans their right to grieve. But displaying America as the ultimate victim since 12/7/41 may be politically and socially expedient domestically, but it does not correlate with America's role in the international community - which is ultimately where voodoo's comment came from. (Note, however, that I was the first to call him on it as "out of line" - at least for the pictures thread - as well.)

Also, I urge you not to forget the waves of collective grief, shock, and sympathy that swept the globe and drove tens of thousands of Europeans into the streets following 9/11.

-s*
     
theolein
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Dec 6, 2003, 11:42 AM
 
YAS (Yet Another Sigh). I appreciated that piece of architectural discussion in here. Breath of fresh, anyone?

Nice perspective, Sven!

On to 9/11. I personally don't know what to make of it, really. On the one hand, I can understand the shock and horror of the sheer magnitude of the attack, as there has been nothing like it, that I know of. I personally can still remember the moment when the secretary where I was working, walked into our office and siad that someone had flown a plane into a building in New York. Jumped into the net, loaded the BBC, Der Spiegel, NY Times and just about every news site I could find, only to realise that most news site's were cracking under the strain. Things seemd to be in slow motion. That evening was like media overkill with every TV channel broadcasting the same clips over and over again.

I remember thinking a few days later that something like that could only happen in the US, not because of some alleged thing America had done, but because of the sheer scale of the attack and the overwhelming media coverage of the event, somehow making it into a media spectacle.

And that brings me to other points of view. Other countries that had suffered total destruction in WWII or decades of terrorist attacks, could surely sympathise with America, and the worldwide condemnation of the attacks that followed and the large international support in the Afghan campaign showed that. The sharp divisions in the international community in the run up to the Iraqi campaign is probably where a lot of that sympathy dried up. (And I'm not going to get into that here because it has been rehashed to death already). I presume that internationally, not many can see any justification in 9/11 for the Iraq campaign, as they see no correlation between the two. I also presume that many now see the events of the past two years and ask why they should sympathise when they had suffered as much or far more in their own histories without as much international attention or sympathy.

And while America is no stranger to terrorism itself (Oklahoma for example, WTC 1993), It hadn't ever been the site of large scale international terrorist campaigns or the battleground of international wars (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Perhaps that is why 9/11 sits so deeply in the American consciousness.

I personally think that the sheer (I'm using tat word too much) volume of American media makes it somehow blind to events outside it's borders, but then again, which other country is not also self centric in it's media coverage (How many here who aren't Australian still remember or think about the Bali bombing which killed so many Australians?)

And why is so little coverage given to the Iraqis who have been killed in recent times? Note that this isn't a criticism, rather an honest question. It seems that in all likelyhood that a good 5000 to 7000 Iraqis have died as a result of fighting in Iraq, yet from what I see of the media, not much coverage is given to them. Is it true that "one of our own's" life is given more importance than "one of theirs"? I think it is, but that this is true for any country. It is not something that only Americans have. It's true for the Swiss, for example as well.

Sadly, I think it is also the seed of much hate and misunderstanding in this world. I think that many Arabs see many "of their own" being killed, be it in Palestine, Iraq or whereever, and see little sympathy from the west, true or not. However, at the same time they overlook the fact that "their own" do a fair amount of killing themselves, be it in Sudan, Nigeria, Indonesia or the Philipines. Likewise possibly Americans see the tragedy of the attacks of 9/11 and the lack of current international sympathy for their soldiers dying in Iraq, but overlook the fact that their soldiers are also doing killing in Iraq.

So, perhaps it's a bit like this section of MacNN, being a microcosm of the world where people don't want to, can't or simply find it hard to empathise with strangers points of view and lives.
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OreoCookie
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Dec 6, 2003, 02:00 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Telling people how to handle their fear and grief is not arrogance?

Pot -- kettle.
No, but the way of the answer reminded me of the behavior of a bitchy girl.
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OreoCookie
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Dec 6, 2003, 02:08 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
...

So, perhaps it's a bit like this section of MacNN, being a microcosm of the world where people don't want to, can't or simply find it hard to empathise with strangers points of view and lives.
Well put.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Dec 7, 2003 at 01:51 AM. )
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Sven G
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Dec 6, 2003, 02:36 PM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Well put.
Yeah, great post, Theo!

(BTW, if you are interested in architecture, etc., there are quite many interesting things going on at Zurich Main Station: very cool, IMHO, and also an example of a really well-made "classic" building with equally good modern, present and future, integrations.)

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ambush
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Dec 7, 2003, 01:26 AM
 
Sorry, but I feel almost numb about 9/11.

I saw countless post-9/11 documentaries on the CIA/FBI operations before 9/11... they did nothing to stop it. And well, what can I say, the US gave them money, just like they gave Saddam money. So think twice, next time.

The US do dirty things, they get what they deserve (I'm talking about GVT., here). They wanted to fight the communists so badly, now they're in deep **** because of that. And now they're spending countless bilions of dollars in warfare and increasing their already MASSIVE debts.

Sometimes I just feel like yelling Ah-HAH! when I see that video of Bush in a school, getting informed about the WTC thing.. I mean, the Americans did a lot of awful things in the past (again, FIGHT the communists at ALL COSTS!!) like the Chili coup d'�tat with Pinochet. You guys know the CIA was behind it, right? Like moki says, "Karma's a bitch", or something.

As for the people who died, well I can't say i'm not affected about this - because every man/women has the right to live.

I really don't like comparing with human lives, because you just can't do it.... I mean.. a life is priceless, right? But say, 3000 people died that day? It's really nothing compared to the situation in Africa, etc. etc.

Some Americans are just being overly hypocrite, though.
     
ambush
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Dec 7, 2003, 01:32 AM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Hold on a sec... let me get this straight:

You criticize the way America has dealt with its fear.

So, tell us. Please, oh great and magnificent German. Please tell us how we should all feel.

Because you're the expert on the subject, right?

I mean, you singlehandedly hold the key to the way we should deal with things. You know the proper decorum. The correct way to cry. The way an expert would correctly blow ones nose into their handkerchief.

Because I really want to learn from you. I really really do.

Please help us. We're begging you.

:barf:
Dude, it was ALL OVER THE ****ING TV FOR LIKE 1 WHOLE ****ING YEAR.

WTC WTC WTC EVERYWHERE. AMERICA UNDER ATTACK. WAR ON TERROR, THEN, WAR AGAINST SADDAM'S EVIL WEAPONS (and then it became Saddam's EVIL REGIME!!)

Give me a break.
     
ambush
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Dec 7, 2003, 01:36 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Tokyo didn't suffer thousands of deaths, New York and Washington did.
And the Hypocrite Redneck Award goes to...
     
Spliffdaddy
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Dec 7, 2003, 04:50 AM
 
Canada?

oh. wait.

you said 'redneck', not 'backwoods'.

I'll have to answer 'France', in that case.
( Last edited by Spliffdaddy; Dec 7, 2003 at 04:58 AM. )
     
Lando Griffin
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Dec 7, 2003, 04:52 AM
 
Fu-k all of you who dare say that 9/11 was nothing...a bunch of bullshit...yadda yadda yadda...our family knew two people (well) that died in the crash and don't tell me that I should just somehow believe, "Oh well, Americans deserved it anyway..." Of course all of the foreigners on this board don't care (and some of them in fact relieved after the tragic day). It's really low of some of you to look at it this way. Sure, it was overpublicized, but for God's sake, it's the worst attack on innocent civilians...in history.

And those of you non-Americans who have no fu-king clue what they're talking about...shut up! Those of you that claim "The Americans deserved it...they're spending billions for nothing..." are not just only not thinking, but saying things they they really shouldn't be saying no matter how mentally challenged they are.

Sorry to rant like this, but I'e suffered losses in my life, even besides 9/11. It's not easy. Now, when I hear people talking about 9/11 as amusement, it just makes me crazy.
"And in other news, Lando Griffin, a popular student at a local high school, was killed last night when his motorcycle careened off Dead Man's Curve. Police were baffled when no body was found at the scene, but they decided it was best not to ask questions and just let everyone get on with their lives."
     
voodoo
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Dec 7, 2003, 06:30 AM
 
Originally posted by Lando Griffin:
Fu-k all of you who dare say that 9/11 was nothing...a bunch of bullshit...yadda yadda yadda...our family knew two people (well) that died in the crash and don't tell me that I should just somehow believe, "Oh well, Americans deserved it anyway..." Of course all of the foreigners on this board don't care (and some of them in fact relieved after the tragic day). It's really low of some of you to look at it this way. Sure, it was overpublicized, but for God's sake, it's the worst attack on innocent civilians...in history.

And those of you non-Americans who have no fu-king clue what they're talking about...shut up! Those of you that claim "The Americans deserved it...they're spending billions for nothing..." are not just only not thinking, but saying things they they really shouldn't be saying no matter how mentally challenged they are.

Sorry to rant like this, but I'e suffered losses in my life, even besides 9/11. It's not easy. Now, when I hear people talking about 9/11 as amusement, it just makes me crazy.
Yes well. Good that you can rant and clear away some of the frustration you are feeling. You don't understand our POV. You don't even try. One thing you must do is to learn to accept the fact that 9/11 was not a random 'act of evil'. This could never have happened to say Japan or Mexico or even India. China. The USA has earned a lot of bad karma. I mean that in the realistic sense. The USA has been a bitch it its foreign policies. The USA has made a target of themselves. That is sad and all but ultimately it is in your hands to fix this problem. Right now you guys are fighting fire with gasoline but hey. That is another discussion. 9/11 was a terrorist act. A lot of people died but it doesn't make it any more special than any other unfair, brutal, inhuman death on this planet. Let me tell you, lest you sound like a hypocrite, that there is a lot of such deaths happening around the world. Even at this very moment. So are you about to tell us that those deaths mean nothing compared to 9/11? Do you think the people affected by those deaths should just get over it? You do don't you? Of course you do. Not because you are a narcissistic American, I don't think you are - but because you realize that only by understanding and forgiving can the violence end. Because if the friends and relatives of the people being unjustly killed today act upon their anger... I'd move FROM the USA if I were you. The circle of violence is endless unless someone does the selfless thing and breaks it. Pride be damned. Could I do this? That is something I don't particularly want to find out but it is the right thing to do and I know it. I would find no peace at hart while anger and bitterness reside there. That is for certain.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Logic
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Dec 7, 2003, 10:13 AM
 
Originally posted by Lando Griffin:
Sure, it was overpublicized, but for God's sake, it's the worst attack on innocent civilians...in history.
Wonder if the people who survived Nagasaki and Hiroshima would agree................ Or the jews back when Hitler was in charge.............. I could go on but I won't...........



ps. I'm away for more than a month and the same topics are being discussed?

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 7, 2003, 10:34 AM
 
Originally posted by Logic:
Wonder if the people who survived Nagasaki and Hiroshima would agree................ Or the jews back when Hitler was in charge.............. I could go on but I won't...........



ps. I'm away for more than a month and the same topics are being discussed?
Or the German refugees in Dresden.
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ambush
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Dec 7, 2003, 10:51 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Canada?

oh. wait.

you said 'redneck', not 'backwoods'.

I'll have to answer 'France', in that case.
What?
     
Spheric Harlot
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Dec 7, 2003, 11:00 AM
 
Originally posted by Lando Griffin:
Fu-k all of you who dare say that 9/11 was nothing...a bunch of bullshit...yadda yadda yadda...our family knew two people (well) that died in the crash and don't tell me that I should just somehow believe, "Oh well, Americans deserved it anyway..." Of course all of the foreigners on this board don't care (and some of them in fact relieved after the tragic day). It's really low of some of you to look at it this way.
You're not actually *reading* anything people are saying in this thread, Lando.

You're just skimming our posts for evidence supporting your opinion.

Europeans to this day are suffering the consequences of the suffering my forefathers inflicted upon others and brought upon themselves. We all see these consequences every day, as we walk through cities far older than anything the American continent has seen, where dozens upon dozens of blocks that used to be teeming with life, families, children, shops, are *still* gone after fifty years - or were hastily replaced in the 50s with storage depots and ugly, sprawling office complexes. Just about everyone I know knows of direct relatives that perished in world war II - either through fire-bombings, concentration camps (many, many non-Jews were interned and murdered as well), or at war, fighting - as did my grandfather, photographs of whom I just found in my father's apartment.

I'm not sure why I posted that rant - probably just to offer up another perspective, to show you that Americans are NOT the first - nor will they be the last - to suffer a collective trauma, and to illustrate perhaps why Europeans were, in fact, VERY sympathetic for the loss of lives and landmarks (remember, also, that many non-Americans perished that day).

Wear the "victim" tag a lot longer if you like and if it helps your grief, but continued abuse of it will continue to result in justified criticism.

-s*
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Dec 7, 2003, 11:04 AM
 
Originally posted by ambush:
And the Hypocrite Redneck Award goes to...
No, but the plucking statements out of context award goes to you.

The context of the remark was in a conversation where the Aum sect nerve gas attack on the Tokyo subway was compared to 9/11. The argument went that both attacks were intended to kill thousands, so they were the same. My response (which you extracted out of context) is that the difference is that in the case of the attacks on Washington and New York, the terrorists succeeded. The Aum sect failed in Tokyo. There is a big difference between the killing of thousands, and the killing of fewer than 20. Intent alone does not make them the same.

Obviously, I know that Tokyo was bombed in World War II. But we weren't talking about WW-II.

Oh, and "Redneck" is a slur that can't be applied to all Americans. It's a regional slur and I live in the wrong region. Don't throw out insults if you don't know how to apply them correctly. It just highlights your ignorance.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Dec 7, 2003, 11:07 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Oh, and "Redneck" is a slur that can't be applied to all Americans. It's a regional slur and I live in the wrong region. Don't throw out insults if you don't know how to apply them correctly. It just highlights your ignorance.
True dat, but Spliffdaddy stepped up to the plate and hit off with a pretty successful - and funny - comeback.

Even though it unfortunately went right over ambush's head.



-s*
     
christ
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Dec 7, 2003, 11:57 AM
 
Originally posted by Lando Griffin:
...yadda yadda yadda...
Now there's a drama queen. (For further evidence, read the poor mite's sig)
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
theolein
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Dec 7, 2003, 01:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Sven G:
Yeah, great post, Theo!

(BTW, if you are interested in architecture, etc., there are quite many interesting things going on at Zurich Main Station: very cool, IMHO, and also an example of a really well-made "classic" building with equally good modern, present and future, integrations.)
Since derailing this thread can only be a good thing I thought I could use this space to tell Sven to take a look at the Kongresshaus in Luzern (Jean Nouvel) and the new Bahnhof in Zug with it's amazing Lighting (James Turrel, Arizona).
weird wabbit
     
perryp
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Dec 7, 2003, 06:22 PM
 
3 to 4 million people died in wars in Congo in the last few years. How many times has that been on the news?

I'm really not interested in Americans whining about less than 3000 deaths. 43,000 people a year die on America's road per year. If the US had the same road safety rate as the UK it would save 8,500 lives a year. But that fact can't be manipulated to provide reasons for war.
     
daimoni
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Dec 8, 2003, 03:33 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 7, 2004 at 08:28 PM. )
     
daimoni
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Dec 8, 2003, 03:35 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 7, 2004 at 08:28 PM. )
     
voodoo
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Dec 8, 2003, 03:41 PM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
When you think about it. You're wrong.
Er. You are a parent right?
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