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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > Put mr. Jobs As_s on the fricking hot seat already!!

Put mr. Jobs As_s on the fricking hot seat already!!
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blue_november
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Aug 14, 2002, 12:47 AM
 
its about time someone put the high and mighty steve jobs up to task for this continuing fiasco. For all those that are criticizing the complainers, i say geet your head out your respective as_sholes. Why are we so in the dark as to what the hell is really going on with moto and these rotten g4's that hace tar ished our beautiful mac machines that we have to live on these rumor sites on a daily basis to prey that apple will put its real face on? How many wintel converts are yopu gonna convince with year-late technology that their PR department will spin as "revolutionary", even though we are still getting shafted as to its real performance?

I can sum up the frustration in one example- a company that sells its highest end pro machine with a 130 dollar budget graphics card has their head in their collective arses. Now use that logic with the rest of the old technolgy in the machine, and you will come to the same conclusion- moto is screwing apple, and apple in turn is screwiong us with trashy motherboards.

Nuff said!

We, the mac faithful, are being laghed at by the wintel collective, and this time, i cant argue with them. This is sooo sad.
"enjoy yer macs, cuz we are all f*ing
dead in the end....oh, and f* microsoft/
...www.ashworld.com/bluenovember"
     
Spliff
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Aug 14, 2002, 12:50 AM
 
Damn right.
     
awcopus
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Aug 14, 2002, 01:06 AM
 
Well, I think you just gave him notice.

Really though, I was nonplussed by the new lineup and made up for it by getting a really cheap 933 loaded with goodies. The upgraded Macs just seemed to be marginally better here and there, but not in an ultra compelling way. I'm looking forward to the day when I just jump out of my skin with excitement the way I did when they introduced the Cube or the Titanium. I hear you, man. I share your pain.

The hardware situation isn't quite as dire as you make it seem, though. Ask yourself what your actual experience is with your Mac. I mean, I work in FCP and After Effects and Photoshop, and I play UT and Quake-like games, and everything's pretty great and getting better. Just not at the rate you or I want.

Apple's portable lineup is terrific, the eMac is great, the Cinema Displays are gorgeous, the iMac is pretty cool. Okay, the PowerMacs aren't amazing, and the Moto chip situation is definitely a major downer...but Jaguar is going to deliver a speed boost across the board...and, in the end, the OS is why we're all here, right? It's f-ing beautiful.

Our time is gonna come, but in the meantime, there are some excellent machines available on the cheap.
     
iChristopher
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Aug 14, 2002, 01:08 AM
 
Stupid and emotional response to a business situation.

Apple's choice of MOT was a long-term commitment that had certain rewards and risks. For a long-time that relationship was a boon for Apple, but MOT clearly has fallen behind. Changing vendors for Mac processors is a non-trivial matter, and requires that due diligence be done for the next long-term commitment.

I'm certain that Apple grudgingly released these machines today. They are probably frustrated with the way their hands are currently tied, and I seriously doubt they are standing still on the issue.

Until the next generation, you need to be patient or take a hike. Once the processor situation is resolved, Apple hardware will shoot back to the forefront.

The Dell dude is ready and waiting to sell you an inferior product if you don't have the patience for Apple to resolve these issues.
     
blue_november  (op)
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Aug 14, 2002, 01:15 AM
 
Originally posted by iChristopher:
Stupid and emotional response to a business situation.

Apple's choice of MOT was a long-term commitment that had certain rewards and risks. For a long-time that relationship was a boon for Apple, but MOT clearly has fallen behind. Changing vendors for Mac processors is a non-trivial matter, and requires that due diligence be done for the next long-term commitment.

I'm certain that Apple grudgingly released these machines today. They are probably frustrated with the way their hands are currently tied, and I seriously doubt they are standing still on the issue.

Until the next generation, you need to be patient or take a hike. Once the processor situation is resolved, Apple hardware will shoot back to the forefront.

The Dell dude is ready and waiting to sell you an inferior product if you don't have the patience for Apple to resolve these issues.
You must be out of your frikin mind. Until the next generation? Been waiting close to two years for that smartiepants.

What is non-trivial is that your core audience who buys most of your machines are rioting in secret. Mac lovers like me, who will never buy a dell, are STILL waiting- for even real ddr-ram usage. Sorry, thereis no patience left. I want an ultimate mac that doesnt cost 5 grand just to come with a blaasted geforce 4, which can be had on a 2k dollar pc. Get real buddy
"enjoy yer macs, cuz we are all f*ing
dead in the end....oh, and f* microsoft/
...www.ashworld.com/bluenovember"
     
Spliff
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Aug 14, 2002, 01:23 AM
 
Apple is so lame putting a 32 MB GeForce 4 MX in a pro tower.

I just checked out the price of a GeForce 4 MX (with 64 MB RAM; they don't even mention the 32 MB version) in a local computer paper.

Get this. The thing costs $105 CDN. That's Canadian dollars. The dual 867 G4 costs $2700 in Canada and it has a card that retails for less than $100.

That's wrong. It's embarrassing. And it really pisses me off.
     
blue_november  (op)
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Aug 14, 2002, 01:30 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliff:
Apple is so lame putting a 32 MB GeForce 4 MX in a pro tower.

I just checked out the price of a GeForce 4 MX (with 64 MB RAM; they don't even mention the 32 MB version) in a local computer paper.

Get this. The thing costs $105 CDN. That's Canadian dollars. The dual 867 G4 costs $2700 in Canada and it has a card that retails for less than $100.

That's wrong. It's embarrassing. And it really pisses me off.
im glad to see someonme gets my point. seems many mac users are content to just sit back and dream of better systems, when pc's get better every week. thats why apple treats us like this. These morons are saying that even thugh we get 60 percent of the pc's features, be glad to pay 140 percent for them.

Thanks a lot STEVE JOBS. TODAY, I THINK YOU'RE A REAL AS_SHOLE.
"enjoy yer macs, cuz we are all f*ing
dead in the end....oh, and f* microsoft/
...www.ashworld.com/bluenovember"
     
Thinine
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Aug 14, 2002, 01:57 AM
 
I bet Steve could kick your ass.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about. This new motherboard is perhaps the best in the industry, with the direct memory access for peripherals and PCI cards. The ONLY thing holding it back is the fact that the G4 cannot recognize DDR memory or use a faster bus. Once these issues are resolved, the Mac will be faster than any PC, 3 GHz be damned.

Besides, if you think Mac users are so stupid, why do you use a Mac? And if you don't use a Mac, why the hell are you here?
     
blue_november  (op)
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Aug 14, 2002, 02:05 AM
 
Originally posted by Thinine:
I bet Steve could kick your ass.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about. This new motherboard is perhaps the best in the industry, with the direct memory access for peripherals and PCI cards. The ONLY thing holding it back is the fact that the G4 cannot recognize DDR memory or use a faster bus. Once these issues are resolved, the Mac will be faster than any PC, 3 GHz be damned.

Besides, if you think Mac users are so stupid, why do you use a Mac? And if you don't use a Mac, why the hell are you here?
Why would i complain if i wasnt a mac fan, you nort!

um, the pci bus is slow as hell, and whats the point of a board that cant use its components potential....do you want to explain the benefits of ata 66/100 over ata 133? must be soooo expensive that they couldnt put it into a 1400 dollar machine. Once htese issues are resolved? here's an idea- GET IBM.
THEN IT WILL BE TIME TO CELEBRATE THE MAC AGAIN.

yer a steve geek.
"enjoy yer macs, cuz we are all f*ing
dead in the end....oh, and f* microsoft/
...www.ashworld.com/bluenovember"
     
::maroma::
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Aug 14, 2002, 02:19 AM
 
Tell me, what is it you think posting a bunch of blabber on the MacNN forums is going to do for your toddler-like demands for "an ultimate mac"? Are you in desperate need of attention?
     
ilukas
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Aug 14, 2002, 02:25 AM
 
Wear the grudge like a crown
Calculate what you will or will not tolerate

Choose to let this go


Can I have that cookie?
     
jwblase
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Aug 14, 2002, 02:44 AM
 
Quote:

"I want an ultimate mac that doesnt cost 5 grand just to come with a blaasted geforce 4, which can be had on a 2k dollar pc. Get real buddy "

Well, then hire a hardware designer, buy the parts yourself, and hack an Apple ROM to start it up. If you're really disappointed, do something about it.

Whining won't do anything. At least warn us before you rant like this.

JB
---------------------------
"Time will tell. It always does."
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moki
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Aug 14, 2002, 02:56 AM
 
Let's put this in perspective. Steve Jobs sees his return to Apple as a personal quest -- this is his chance to "get it right" and prove to everyone (himself included) that he has the right vision. Steve personally approves or rejects the interface elements that go into Mac OS X; he cares deeply about how his babies are perceived. Indeed a number of high-ups in Apple were chewed out when Mac OS X 10.0 didn't live up to performance expectations that he had.

Why is this relevant? Simply because Steve -- more than anyone else posting here -- is likely quite upset about the current hardware situation. If you think for a moment that he hasn't been extremely pissed off at the situation of being tied to Motorola and their lack of serious interest in competing in the desktop processor arena, then you're quite mistaken.

However, you have to realize that some things are beyond Steve's control, such as the current chip situation -- or at least, any control he has over it won't result in an immediate change. When Steve spoke about "having options" when the Mac OS X transition is completed, you can bet he was smiling inwardly. The situation as it stands now will Motorola won't always be the case, you can bank on that.

In the meantime, Apple is doing the best it can to churn out machines that compete with the latest Wintel offerings -- and they are doing better than most people give them credit for. In terms of overall system performance when using Mac OS X on a dual 1.25ghz machine vs. the deeply pipelined 2.5+ghz Intel machines running Windows XP, I think you'll find that Apple's offerings stack up quite well.

Apple does have speed problem compared to the Wintel world, but it really is more perception than reality in terms of day to day performance and usability. We have some Wintel boxes at work running XP; their performance doesn't live up to the ghz gap that alarmists who just look at the numbers note with regularity.

If you're expecting the situation to change overnight, you're going to be disappointed, but Mac OS X is one killer operating system, and you can bet Apple fully intends to have hardware to match it.
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
     
Spliff
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Aug 14, 2002, 03:28 AM
 
Originally posted by moki:
Let's put this in perspective.
..........

If you're expecting the situation to change overnight, you're going to be disappointed, but Mac OS X is one killer operating system, and you can bet Apple fully intends to have hardware to match it.
I don't have a problem with the processor speeds. My beef is with the video card in the entry-level G4. It's inexcuseable.

Apple markets the G4 towers as computers for professionals. Then why have they hobbled it with a joke of a video card?

Some people are going to buy this computer to run Maya and they are going to get lackluster performance because of the video card.

Not everyone can afford the mid-range or high-end G4. But us poor Mac users shouldn't be punished for wanting an entry-level G4 tower.
     
blue_november  (op)
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Aug 14, 2002, 03:32 AM
 
now thats what im talking about. Im sure steve is not happy with what we have to deal with from moto. But is it really so bad to complain about your beloved platform?

I think im beginning to understand this whole 'mac zealot' stuff that i hear pc weenies complain about the time. Apple is not beyaond complaining against, as they make dumb moves like everyone else. but as far as the 'pro' line of macs, everyone knew the writing was on the wall. but when you make a complaint, especially when its valid, or at least makes sense, you suddenly are thinkign about a dell. cmon guys. Yes, the post is a rant. What, now you cant do that on mac forums? give me a break. I must admit that sometimes speaking to mac bretheren is not all peaches and cream- some can be real *******s, becaus ethe know so much and they are so loyal. But the rant is based on facts- i aint making any of this stuff up. We as loyal users want more. we've been going through this for 2 years now. Many are complaining.
Power mac sales dived, and it should have- they were offering nothing appeakling to users from even the previous generation. My brother and his friend are dying to get a mac. But he wants power, and a mouse with more than 1 button. What cani tell him? wait. He is no fool, and no one is impressed with apples pricing schemes. another friend of mine just rejoiced that he no longer has to get a mac to buy a ipod. I told him that apple will enjoy taking his money regardless. take what we can from those pc lovers.
The killer is that he just swapped his motherboard and popped in a athlon 1.6 ghz for around 5 huindred bucks. true, its not a mac, but ill be damned if that aint a apanking deal- its practiacally a whole new machine now. but we mac usrs shouldnt complain because we get to pay three grand for a 250 mhz upgrade.

i just bought a 7/02 733 quicksilver with a hobbled cache a couple months back. I love the machine, its quick, and does what i need it to do. I bought this model because it finally came down to a reasonable price point(1300 bucks, even though the 466mhz was still going for 1200- madnees i tell you)
and i was NOT impressed with only a 200 mhz gain on a machine almost 2000 dollars its senior, reghardlessof the almost useless(then) dual processors.
I migrated from an upgraded beige desktop, so for me it ws dramatic.

No one can argue with apple's minimalistic approach to upgradidng their machines. Yoou tell me that they cannot break their contratct with motorola?
bull. there is a reason that they are still attached to that flailing comapny, and for the love of god i would like to know, and so will many others.

Whats funny about my 'rant' is that no one that called me a maniac or justa rambler could give me an explanation on why a 3 grand plus machine cant have a geforce titanium as standard issue. this should jst not be, and too many of us are too easily accepting of apples practices.

one last note- does anyone remember the last time apple went all dual processors? It is well known that it was because of a raw mhz shortage...

...sounds like deja u

"enjoy yer macs, cuz we are all f*ing
dead in the end....oh, and f* microsoft/
...www.ashworld.com/bluenovember"
     
moki
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Aug 14, 2002, 03:55 AM
 
Originally posted by blue_november:
No one can argue with apple's minimalistic approach to upgradidng their machines. Yoou tell me that they cannot break their contratct with motorola?
bull. there is a reason that they are still attached to that flailing comapny, and for the love of god i would like to know, and so will many others.
Not that they can't break their contract with Motorola, but rather that they need a viable alternative before they do. Microprocessors don't grow on trees... but you can bet something is in the works. Maybe something like this?


from: http://www.mdronline.com/mpf/conf.html

.....

Breaking Through Compute Intensive Barriers - IBM's New 64-bit PowerPC Microprocessor
Peter Sandon, Senior Processor Architect, Power PC Organization,
IBM Microelectronics IBM is disclosing the technical details of a new 64-bit PowerPC microprocessor designed for desktops and entry-level servers. Based on the award winning Power4 design, this processor is an 8-way superscalar design that fully supports Symmetric MultiProcessing. The processor is further enhanced by a vector processing unit implementing over 160 specialized vector instructions and implements a system interface capable of up to 6.4GB/s.
( Last edited by moki; Aug 14, 2002 at 04:04 AM. )
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
     
blue_november  (op)
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Aug 14, 2002, 04:09 AM
 
give me g5 or give me death. windows and dell are worse than death.
Or for pity, give me a g4 with at least 1.7 gigs on it. let me just feel alive.

apple, heres a suggestion;
tkae somne of those billions, not all of cousre, but some, and:
buy all powerpc rights from moto, pass them to ibm, and then we will all believe in magic.

beleiving in moto is like believing the bush admin doesnt want to drill in yer backyard.

I want to be using my mac screaming "NOW YOUR PLAYING WITH POWER!!"

is it suck a pipe dream....sigh
"enjoy yer macs, cuz we are all f*ing
dead in the end....oh, and f* microsoft/
...www.ashworld.com/bluenovember"
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 14, 2002, 04:22 AM
 
I think Stevie has done a great job so far. Apple was dead a couple of years ago.

Besides Dell , Apple is the only computer company that actually makes money in this difficult economy.

All you see is that 'well I can get a WinTel machine for less. You don't get it -- it's about integration. Take a look at the iPod. Compared to similar offerings, it is not overpriced (anymore) with an excellent integration into MacOS X.

Apple machines are more expensive, but you get something in return: excellent support (at least from my own experience), good quality, one party to blame.

As for Pros, the expensive things are software and the person that uses the damn thing.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
IceEnclosure
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Aug 14, 2002, 04:47 AM
 
blue november....

you've said it plainly enough... and well said..

there's nothing wrong with going on a 'rant' about lack of hardware features/power in a G4 Tower... ESPECIALLY in the 'PowerMac' forum on MacNN...

people shouldn't be tellin' ya to buy a Dell... stoopid..

and yes.. we have been waiting fore-v-e-r for a SICK system..

the 'PRO' in PowerMac is a tough point to sell...every app that is available for PRO users on a Mac is also available on a PC... and that PC, for the price is gonna be hella equipped..
now...true.... it doesn't have Mac OS... (the main reason I'm still here and I'm sure most of you are as well)

what if Moto wasn't in the picture? I'd bet that we'd have super fast systems (superfast measured in GHz.. with real DDR..)
graphics cards, well, that'd be a different story... and we all know that if we had matching GHz.... with MacOS...and Mac's superior architecture... we'd have the SICK system we all want..

asking us to wait and wait.... well, it sucks... but ranting about the problems with newly released hardware that makes us feel cheated about our choice for computing platforms.. shouldn't get us flamed (my choice is Mac, as I've spent about 50 hrs. on a PC in my LIFE.. sorry.. I only know Mac) I want Macs to be the best cause it's what I use day in and day out, and I need them to perform better than the next guy, cause it's him I'm competing against for work.

If Apple's gonna have the elitist(sp?) attitude about their hardware, it should live up to the hype...

I know they're not ditching Moto tomorrow, but it'd be nice..
there'd be alot less to complain about--hopefully

pricing, GHz gap(whoa) and video cards... they need to straighten all that out..

the OS.. well, we all know the story there.. and it's a good one..

oh.. and.... Mr. Spliff-----people buying low end Macs for Maya? get real... if you're buying Maya, and plan on doing real 3D work, you know what you're doing...and you're not buying a low end PowerMac to get the job done. I hope


nothin' wrong with rantin'
ice
     
blue_november  (op)
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Aug 14, 2002, 10:15 AM
 
this business about getting flamed for criticizing your own platform is just ridicluous. Just because we dont work for apple, doesnt mean we arent knowledgeable about what can be had on the general pc market AS OPPOSED to what can be had on a more expensive g4 tower.

someone actually replied if you want a geforce 4 tit on a tower to become hardware designer.that makes us all look bad, because it is the tools we are shelling out a lot of cash for that is barely able to get the job done.

I am still amazed that maya even made it, considereing that not one of these video card manufacturers will bring out a version of their true workstation carrds. How are you supposed to really use the power of maya on a board bulit for gaming? Sorry, but that aint what the "pros" use- not by along shot.
and with aplle finally updating the opengl spec in os x, things should get better, but when?

Why does no one complain about ati charging us an extra hundred dollars for the same damn card sold on the pc? i dont see any complaing on the boards.
everyone's just following the blind lead. Well ill be soon putting up an article, looking at all of the traps of the mac video card situation.

Look everyone(all the ready to flame maniacs), i just want a POWERFUL mac that i wont make me feel like im being cheated on the features. I want to look at pc hardware and say "my mac can hang with that". i want a video card that i have to prey will run maya well, anfd doenst run me 5-600 bucks. My 733 cost me 1300 bucks, and thats all it should have cost in the first damn place, considering all the technology (as wellas the purposely hobbled cache to make it 'low end' is none to modern.

If you cant get tthe bleeding edge for 3400 dollars, what is the point? buy an imac.

I want a real mac- the best damn computer that money can buy. We got os x, now where's the rest?
"enjoy yer macs, cuz we are all f*ing
dead in the end....oh, and f* microsoft/
...www.ashworld.com/bluenovember"
     
drjoe
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Aug 14, 2002, 12:11 PM
 
Originally posted by Thinine:
I bet Steve could kick your ass.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about. This new motherboard is perhaps the best in the industry, with the direct memory access for peripherals and PCI cards. The ONLY thing holding it back is the fact that the G4 cannot recognize DDR memory or use a faster bus. Once these issues are resolved, the Mac will be faster than any PC, 3 GHz be damned.

Besides, if you think Mac users are so stupid, why do you use a Mac? And if you don't use a Mac, why the hell are you here?
He doesn't own a MAc. One of the new breed of crypto-mac-hates. Whiners and Whingers. Nothing is ever good enough. Steve Jobs is the successor to Ghengis Khan. Macs suck, etc etc etc. They should all take a hike and leave these forums to people who have something positive and useful to say.
     
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Aug 14, 2002, 12:32 PM
 
blue_november, you're right, there is nothing wrong with ranting about something. But you have to look at what it will accomplish. Do you think anyone on this board can do anything about any of this? No, they can't. Do you think then, that we want to read (for the 100th time) ANOTHER post about how Apple's machines are slow and how everyone knows the answere except Mr. Jobs? No, we don't. Take a look around here, and look at the MANY MANY posts about this exact thing. It's not that we are 'zealots', it's that we are sick of hearing this over and over again.

I sincerely think there should be a seperate forum category to deal with rants and vents about Apple/Mac/Jobs/whatever. Like I said, I have no problem with it per se, but when it's the 140th post I've come across this week about it, it gets old.

You have valid points, and there is nothing wrong with wanting more from Apple. But the sooner you realize that Apple is doing what they can, and there's nothing that you (or any of us) can do to get Apple to where we want them to be, the better off you'll be. Just be patient (I know, we've all been waiting years). You're just getting worked up over something you have no control over.

I feel like Apple is on the brink of something really big. They are making big changes and big acquisitions. They have an absolutely amazing OS, and some killer apps to go with it. The rumors are stirring about a processor manufacturer switch, and that is also good news for the hardware arena. We must be patient. We as loyal Mac users will be rewarded for our patience soon enough.
     
cenutrio
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Aug 14, 2002, 03:06 PM
 
I do not think that these systems are bad at all. Very powerfull computer indeed, but overpriced.

Just a thought
     
kentuckyfried
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Aug 14, 2002, 03:41 PM
 
I feel like Apple at a critical turning point again....if they blow this again like back in the early 90's, there's no turning back his time. But if they manage to pull through the processor dilemma, things could suddenly take off.



Originally posted by ::maroma:::

I feel like Apple is on the brink of something really big. They are making big changes and big acquisitions. They have an absolutely amazing OS, and some killer apps to go with it. The rumors are stirring about a processor manufacturer switch, and that is also good news for the hardware arena. We must be patient. We as loyal Mac users will be rewarded for our patience soon enough. [/B]
Now I know, and knowing is half the battle!
     
memento
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Aug 14, 2002, 03:56 PM
 
Originally posted by ilukas:
Wear the grudge like a crown
Calculate what you will or will not tolerate

Choose to let this go


o/t: TOOL RULES!
"Destroy your ego. Trust your brain. Destroy your beliefs. Trust your divinity." -Danny Carey

MacPro Quad 2.66, G4 MDD dual 867, 23" Cinema Display and 17" LCD, G4 Quicksilver dual 800, 12" Powerbook 867, iMac 300 Grape, B&W G3/300 with G4/450 running yellowdog, iPod 5GB, iPod mini, PowerCenter 150, Powercenter 132 tower, Performa 6116, Quadra 700, MacSE, LC II, eMate 300
     
edddeduck
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Aug 16, 2002, 10:17 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliff:


I don't have a problem with the processor speeds. My beef is with the video card in the entry-level G4. It's inexcuseable.

Apple markets the G4 towers as computers for professionals. Then why have they hobbled it with a joke of a video card?

Some people are going to buy this computer to run Maya and they are going to get lackluster performance because of the video card.

Not everyone can afford the mid-range or high-end G4. But us poor Mac users shouldn't be punished for wanting an entry-level G4 tower.
1. Who would use a low end G4 for intensive Maya work?
2. Look at the GFX cards GF4 MX is fine for everything most low end users need BUT oh.. what a surprise it IS NOT a gamers card.

If you want to play games/Maya you upgrade your GFX card. (BTW Maya people should already have a good card in there old one. If not then
1. Their new card will be faster
2. They can custom the machine)

But for most people I know the fact that the card is a GF4 MX does not really matter.

If you are put off by the GFX card you need to think what do I need this extra power for?

The GF4 MX is a great card for the bottom of the line as most people buying that machine are not looking for GFX 3D performance.

BTW the MX holds it's own surprisingly we against the Ti and the 9000.

Personally I don't want a MX but then again I am in the games industry.

Cheers Edwin
     
hmurchison2001
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Aug 16, 2002, 11:27 AM
 
What's so wrong with the Powermacs?

If you don't have the moxy to put your Wintel lovin' friends in their place then get smarter.

Apple's looking good. Those that keep spoutin' the Doom and Gloom simply don't remember the REAL Gloom from '96. Don't get yer panties in a bunch.
     
qyn
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Aug 16, 2002, 02:06 PM
 
Blue, why so emotional? It's only a computer. As a consumer, here are your options:

PowerMac, with not all the features you want (eg, DDR on CPU)
Dell, with not all the features you want (eg, OS that works)

Take your pick.

This is not a flame, nor is it an apology for Apple, just a statement of the facts. If you don't like your options, vote with your dollars.

You'll give yourself an ulcer if you get so worked about these issues!
     
wulf
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Aug 16, 2002, 02:39 PM
 
Originally posted by moki:

Breaking Through Compute Intensive Barriers - IBM's New 64-bit PowerPC Microprocessor
Peter Sandon, Senior Processor Architect, Power PC Organization,
IBM Microelectronics IBM is disclosing the technical details of a new 64-bit PowerPC microprocessor designed for desktops and entry-level servers. Based on the award winning Power4 design, this processor is an 8-way superscalar design that fully supports Symmetric MultiProcessing. The processor is further enhanced by a vector processing unit implementing over 160 specialized vector instructions and implements a system interface capable of up to 6.4GB/s.
In the long-term, this could really be what we are all waiting for (can anyone say G5?) ... if it turns out to be something that Apple can use. It's probably too early to say, but "over 160 specialized vector instructions" sounds a lot like AltiVec.

In the shorter term, let's hope Moto get out those faster 7470s (? or whatever) that can make full use of DDR
     
moki
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Aug 17, 2002, 02:38 PM
 
Originally posted by wulf:

In the shorter term, let's hope Moto get out those faster 7470s (? or whatever) that can make full use of DDR
One thing to keep in mind is that although DDR stands for "double data rate", it by no means delivers double the performance of normal SDRAM.

Everything else being equal in a computer system, going from SDRAM to DDR will give you about a 10% boost in speed, but only in very RAM-intensive operations.

On the PC side of things, the marketdroids have run with it to the extent that they'll advertise a "333mhz system bus" when in fact it is just DDR 333 over a 166mhz bus -- "double the number, it'll make people think it's faster -- worked for processor clockspeed"
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
     
P
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Aug 17, 2002, 05:22 PM
 
Originally posted by moki:


One thing to keep in mind is that although DDR stands for "double data rate", it by no means delivers double the performance of normal SDRAM.

Everything else being equal in a computer system, going from SDRAM to DDR will give you about a 10% boost in speed, but only in very RAM-intensive operations.

On the PC side of things, the marketdroids have run with it to the extent that they'll advertise a "333mhz system bus" when in fact it is just DDR 333 over a 166mhz bus -- "double the number, it'll make people think it's faster -- worked for processor clockspeed"
This is a point I've been trying to make recently. The detail about it is that the only thing "double" is that data can travel on the falling edge of the bus as well as the rising. However the commands, the requests for data can still only go on the rising edge. The result is that performance will be improved for situations where you continiously stream data. There will be no improvement for random reads.
     
Superchicken
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Aug 18, 2002, 12:20 AM
 
Why are so many morons here complaining about the PM's graphic's card?
It's in a slot!
You don't like it, take it out, jump on it, and throw in a new one!
it's that easy!
stop complaining that apple doesn't jack of the price for the bottom users who don't WANT a Geforece Ti!
When I buy I want something that will reap the rewards of QE, and that's about it, I don't play games at all, I've got like two for my Mac and I havn't played them in like a year and a half!
And if someoen's doing Maya, then they'd BETTER know how to select a better graphics card! Otherwise they should stop Pirating the software!
     
OldManMac
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Aug 18, 2002, 01:12 AM
 
Get some of your statements straight about the core Mac users "rioting in secret", and Mac pro Mac sales diving. You don't know for a fact that anybody is "rioting in secret"; you have a couple of anecdotal stories probably, but that doesn't extrapolate to gross dissatisfaction. There are several reasons Mac pro sales are down; OS X native apps like Quark are not ready yet, and, in case you hadn't noticed, we're in a recession, and computer sales in general are down drastically! Apple is actually faring better than most; it's still making money, and it's gaining converts! An easy 25% of my sales go to converts, despite what you rant about as "year old technology!" Do you want to know why they're converting? It's because they've heard good things about the Mac and OS X, and they're tired of being shafted by Microsloth! They're also actually listening to their friends who have Macs, and are coming in to look, and often going home with a new Mac!

Don't extrapolate your own personal biases, and assume that every one else feels the same way.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
bigv
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Aug 18, 2002, 01:28 AM
 
About the only thing that I'm really tired of is hearing about are these phantom processors from motorola, like the G5 or 7470, that we never see in a machine. If motorola could deliver what it promises I would not have anything to complain about. There is very little in life that annoys me more than being promised something then have whoever made the promise make up excuses why they backed out on it and that is what motorola has done to us.
     
Superchicken
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Aug 18, 2002, 02:18 AM
 
I for one will never buy a Motorola Cell phone!
     
GnOm
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Aug 18, 2002, 02:59 AM
 
I just have to chime in...

There's nothing wrong with complaining, it just won't help much if you do it (only) here.

Whatever Apple does to improve the CPU situation (buy out the PowerPC design from Mot and give it to IBM, etc.) will take well over a year to make it into market, so that won't help much too for the time inbetween. Basically we're doomed for another year or so.

For the video card (and pretty much the rest of the standard components) it just shows how cheap those b*st*rds at Apple are, get the cheapest you can, throw it together and sell for high price seems to be the business model for their current (actually since the G3b&w, but at least the case was really solid back then) hardware. Sure you can put in a better one yourself but that adds to the 2000+$ price.



bye.
     
   
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