[netgear]

Originally posted by f1000:
Let's not forget the men. If we punished more men (boys, really) for being deadbeat fathers, then we'd really be doing the world some good.

Men can't reproduce on their own.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I don't know of any 13+ year olds that don't know about condoms. They simply aren't using them.

It's not "cool"

We have taught them it's OK to have sex at a young age. Because how DARE we try to impliment morals onto anyone!

Back when teachers were allowed to, you didn't see such a high teen pregnancy rate. This isn't something that has been going on for decades. It's a recent trend.

So one has to think to themselves, what have we done different now, that we did before.

Teach morality and abstinence.

Eh, the big difference now is that our culture is much more open about sex. There certainly were unwanted pregnancies 'in the old days,' you just didn't hear about it because people kept it private. The thing to do is to teach responsibility, not to force choices on people.

[f1000]

Originally posted by itai195:
Is it? Prove that.

Look up the definition of LIFE in a biology textbook yourself. Then see if a zygote fits that definition.

I suggest Campbell. It's thick, but it's got lots of pretty pictures. It�s the standard introductory biology text at many top universities.

http://www.aw-bc.com/campbell/

Originally posted by itai195:
Err, I said that children should NOT be used as a punishment, yet that's precisely what a lot of the pro-lifers are saying.

Then that's their argument, not mine. If a mother sees HER child as punishment, then she needs a serious attitude adjustment (this goes double for the father).

Originally posted by itai195:
Sure, people can also be lazy and stupid, but that's not always the cause of unwanted pregnancies.

Name another cause that's not rape, incest, or health-related.

Originally posted by itai195:
Plus, preaching nothing but abstinence in school isn't going to make the problem any better -- people will still have sex, they just won't know how to protect themselves.

What does this have to do with abortion?

[f1000]

Originally posted by netgear:
Men can't reproduce on their own.

If they're fathers, then they must've reproduced, right?

[hyteckit]

Check out the abortion rate by age groups:

http://www.statehealthfacts.kff.org/...category=Women's+Health&subcategory=Abortion+Statistics&topic=Ab ortions+by+Age+Group

Notice this is Mississippi. Isn't Mississippi part of the Bible Belt and is a very ultra conservative state?

Over 80% of abortions are from woman 20 and over.


http://www.abortiontv.com/AbortionStatistics.htm

Teenage pregnancy down 10 years in a row from 1990 - 2000. Abortion was the highest in 1990 during Pres. Bush. 28% drop in abortion among teens from 1990-2000 during the Clinton years.


Abortions among teens are down.
Abortions among 30's are up.
Abortions down from 1990 overall.
Number of abortions haven't change all the much from 1975 to today, considering the population growth.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2001_News/01-49.html

[itai195]

Originally posted by f1000:
Look up the definition of LIFE in a biology textbook yourself. Then see if a zygote fits that definition.

I suggest Campbell. It's thick, but it's got lots of pretty pictures. It�s the standard introductory biology text at many top universities.

http://www.aw-bc.com/campbell/

Gee, I've taken lots of biology classes, including some at a 'top university,' don't recall anyone ever saying definitively they're alive.

[Name another cause that's not rape, incest, or health-related.

Mistakes? Accidents?

What does this have to do with abortion?

Think about it

At the same time, sorry, I'm guilty of rebutting the arguments of others while replying to you... sorry about that.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by itai195:
Eh, the big difference now is that our culture is much more open about sex.

That is what I was basically saying. Before it was a intimate thing. And you were looked down upon for having sex outside of marriages.

Of course during that time there wasn't as many teen pregnancies. A lot more people waited till they were married.

Not as much STDs going around either.

There certainly were unwanted pregnancies 'in the old days,' you just didn't hear about it because people kept it private.

Oh sure they existed. Just not in the grand scale of today.

The thing to do is to teach responsibility, not to force choices on people.

It's not about FORCING choices. It's about teaching them to do the right thing. And to take responsibilities for their actions.

No wonder there are so many dead-beat dads out there.

[Spliffdaddy]

If you have to debate whether something is right or wrong...

It's usually wrong.

Write that down. You'll refer to it often as you grow older.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If you have to debate whether something is right or wrong...

It's usually wrong.

Write that down. You'll refer to it often as you grow older.

Aren't you engaged in a similar debate over Iraq?

[f1000]

Originally posted by itai195:
Gee, I've taken lots of biology classes, including some at a 'top university,' don't recall anyone ever saying definitively they're alive.

Well, now you can.

Originally posted by itai195:
Mistakes? Accidents?

Well, I admit that rubbers can break, but married couples who know that they don't want anymore children should have their tubes tied and doodads snipped, anyway; after they've had that last baby.

Originally posted by itai195:
At the same time, sorry, I'm guilty of rebutting the arguments of others while replying to you... sorry about that.

I do it myself sometimes. I attribute it to shellshock (or info overload: you just can't tell who's saying what after awhile).

[itai195]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

That is what I was basically saying. Before it was a intimate thing. And you were looked down upon for having sex outside of marriages. [/b]

You could put it that way... Though I think that's seeing the world through rose colored glasses.

Of course during that time there wasn't as many teen pregnancies. A lot more people waited till they were married

Not as much STDs going around either.

Oh sure they existed. Just not in the grand scale of today.

I don't think that's true... But I'm not sure they even collected statistics back then, these matters were kept private.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by itai195:
You could put it that way... Though I think that's seeing the world through rose colored glasses.

How is that looking through rose colored glasses? It's not seeing something in a better way than it actually was.

I don't think that's true... But I'm not sure they even collected statistics back then, these matters were kept private.

There simply wasn't as many. No matter how you spin it.

And yes, they have statistics. They kept it private. Cept from the doctors that treated them. Which did keep records.

[Zimphire]

BTW I think this needs repeating.

Roe v. Wade was a scam.

It was a group using a naive women to push their agenda.

Go ask Norma McCorvey how she feels about abortion now.

Anonymous no more, Norma McCorvey no longer supports abortion rights
From CNN Interactive Writer Douglas S. Wood_

CNN) -- Norma McCorvey won't be celebrating the 25th anniversary of the historic Roe vs. Wade decision that legalized abortion.

McCorvey is "Jane Roe," the pseudonym she assumed to remain anonymous as the lead plaintiff in the case that legalized abortion in the United States.

"I'm very sad (about the anniversary)," she told CNN Interactive in a telephone interview. "But this year, I've got so much to do, I don't have time to sit down and be sad."

Once an abortion-rights supporter, the 50-year-old McCorvey has switched sides: She's now a vocal anti-abortion activist. She has started a ministry called Roe No More to fight against abortion rights with the aim of creating a mobile counseling center for pregnant women in Dallas.

She began her association with one of the United States' most contentious and volatile sociopolitical issues in 1970, when she became the lead plaintiff in the class-action lawsuit filed to challenge the strict anti-abortion laws in Texas.

The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, which handed down its controversial ruling on January 22, 1973. The decision legalized the right to an abortion in all 50 states and sparked a political debate that remains charged to this day.

However, McCorvey, who was 21 when the case was filed and was on her third pregnancy, never had an abortion and gave birth to a girl, who was given up for adoption.

http://abortionismurder.org/roechangedhermind.shtml

[netgear]

Originally posted by f1000:
If they're fathers, then they must've reproduced, right?

Yes and it requires that a woman open her legs, correct?

Abortion wouldn't be necessary if a woman kept her legs closed. Imagine all the STDs that wouldn't get passed around either.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
How is that looking through rose colored glasses? It's not seeing something in a better way than it actually was.[/b]

Because it wasn't exactly a happier time...

I can't prove there were as many unwanted pregnancies (which isn't my point anyway), but you can't prove otherwise either...

[f1000]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No wonder there are so many dead-beat dads out there.

I say beat-em dead, or at least red!


For those who deny that legislation can modify behavior:

'Singapore is a fine country,' joked the cheeky taxi driver. 'In Singapore we have fines for everything'.

Singapore has a number of frowned-upon activities, and the sometimes Draconian methods of dealing with minor offences has caused both mirth and dread among visitors. The famous anti-long-hair campaign is a thing of the past, but it is only recently that long-haired men were turned away on arrival, or given a short-back-and-sides on the spot.

Singapore remains tough on a number of other minor issues, however, and the standard way of stamping out un-Singaporean activities is to slap a S$1000 fine on any offender. Actually, it is very rare that anybody gets fined that amount, but the severity of the fines is enough to ensure compliance.

Smoking in a public place - buses, lifts, cinemas, restaurants, air-conditioned shopping centres, and government offices - earns a S$500 fine. You can smoke at food stalls and on the street (as long as you dispose of your butt, of course). The move to ban smoking in private cars was eventually quashed because of the difficulty of enforcing it. A few years ago it was the fashion among Singapore subversives to urinate in elevators but a successful campaign of heavy fines and security cameras has stamped that one out.

Jaywalking is a relatively minor crime - walk across the road within 50m of a designated crossing and it could cost you S$50. There is a successful anti-littering campaign (with a fine of up to S$1000 for dropping even a cigarette butt on the street) and, not surprisingly, Singapore is amazingly clean.

The Mass Rapid Transit (MRT), Singapore's pride and joy, attracts some particularly heavy fines. Eating, drinking and smoking on the system are forbidden and attract a S$500 fine.

Gum chewing is also a frowned-upon activity in Singapore. Antisocial elements used to leave their gum deposits on the doors of the MRT, causing disruptions to the underground rail services. The sale, importation and even possession of chewing gum is now banned and subject to heavy fines.

So how exactly did Singapore stamp out the elevator subversives?

According to the Senior Minister, a stable society will not exist without �a machinery to detect, prove and punish.�[130] So, as is usually the case, every utopia comes with its own costs.[131] The Singaporean machinery exists on a scale grander than any work of fiction has ever produced. For example, toilets are monitored by agents from the Environmental Ministry.[132] Those who don�t flush may get their picture published in the paper.[133] If you urinate in an elevator, a urine detector will jam the door and stop the elevator.[134] After being alerted by officials from a central monitoring post, police will arrive to fine and release you from the elevators.[135] Traffic violations are recorded by cameras that are part of the same surveillance system that monitors all elevators, street corners, and the train system.[136] .

Ahahahaha!


Finally, read this opinion by Lee Kuan Yew, the Governator of Singapore:

http://brainstorming.typepad.com/bra...d_to_get_.html

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by itai195:
Because it wasn't exactly a happier time...

I never said it was a happier time. I just said less pregnancies happened because morality and abstinence was allowed to be taught in the schools. Not all kids get taught it at home.

I can't prove there were as many unwanted pregnancies (which isn't my point anyway), but you can't prove otherwise either...

Back in the 30s and 40s it simply wasn't as common as today.

Why do you think in the 60s 70s and 80s such a BIG DEAL was made about it?

The whole "Kids having Kids"

It has been going down since the advent of AIDS and people being taught about STDs. And now that Abortions are legal.

More kids were having kids in the 60s BEFORE Abortion was available. Kids being pregnant haven't lowered.. kids having babies have.

And again.. there ARE doctors records. You forgot to address that in your reply for some reason.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And again.. there ARE doctors records. You forgot to address that in your reply for some reason.

And you have access to these medical records?

Anyway, we're getting sidetracked. I just fundamentally disagree with your position. Pushing sex back into the closet would be a step backwards.

[f1000]

Originally posted by netgear:
Yes and it requires that a woman open her legs, correct?

Abortion wouldn't be necessary if a woman kept her legs closed. Imagine all the STDs that wouldn't get passed around either.

Abortion wouldn't be necessary if men kept their cruise missiles zipped up, either.

If abortion is murder, then men shouldn't be knocking up women who they know are going to murder their child.

BOTH parents are responsible. ALWAYS.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by itai195:
And you have access to these medical records?

Nope, but others that do claim teenage pregnancy has risen since the 30s and 40s. Is that SO hard to believe? There was a lot more women waiting for marriage then too.

Anyway, we're getting sidetracked. I just fundamentally disagree with your position. Pushing sex back into the closet would be a step backwards.

I am not talking about pushing sex in the closet. I am talking about getting it OUT of the closet, and teaching a mixture of personal responsibility and morality.

I also believe if we teach males at a early age to be responsible for any women you impregnate there will be less abortions.

I don't know HOW many girls I have heard that wanted to have the kid, but got an abortion because their boyfriends told them if they had it, their relationship was over and it would be HER kid.



I am 31. And in my youth I admit I have had a lot of partners. I am not proud of that.

But I AM proud of the fact I was responsible.

I don't think it's reasonable to believe kids will just stop having sex. But teaching them about responsibility and morality DOES make them think.

[netgear]

Originally posted by f1000:
Abortion wouldn't be necessary if men kept their cruise missiles zipped up, either.

If abortion is murder, then men shouldn't be knocking up women who they know are going to murder their child.

BOTH parents are responsible. ALWAYS.

Well if society gives a woman the "choice" to kill her child then the ultimate choice not to get pregnant in the first place resides with the woman.

I've had lots of partners and have yet once to "knock one up."

Perhaps if women aren't going to be responsible then they shouldn't be taking the chance in the first place.

We penalize people for leaving loaded weapons around without safety mechanisms in place, perhaps we should start sterilizing people who can't have sex responsibly.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by f1000:
Abortion wouldn't be necessary if men kept their cruise missiles zipped up, either.

If abortion is murder, then men shouldn't be knocking up women who they know are going to murder their child.

BOTH parents are responsible. ALWAYS.

I would agree, but there are women that say one thing, and do another.

"I am against abortion!"

3 months later when she is pregnant

" I hate abortion, but have no other choice"

Anyone that says above really means "It will cramp my style"

[Zimphire]

A personal story of mine. I had been dating a gal for a little over a year. She was on birth control.

I ended up impregnating her anyhow. She never told me about it. She just went and had an abortion without telling me about it. She knew how I felt about it.

Later on it began to eat at her. She got deeply depressed. She ended up breaking up with me because I reminded her of the abortion.

About 2 months after we broke up, she decided to tell me. She claims it was non of my business what she did with our kid.

I can't help but think at least once a day what he or she would have been like today. It has effected me emotionally as well.

To add salt to my wounds.. she feels the need to send me emails on it's supposed "birthday"

Even though I never had anything to do with her abortion, or even knew about it till it was too late. I feel guilty.

I had always told her if she ever got pregnant I would support the kid.

She didn't want the kid because it would have "cramped her style" at the moment.

She said she was only 29, and wasn't ready for stretch marks.

[hyteckit]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
A personal story of mine. I had been dating a gal for a little over a year. She was on birth control.

I ended up impregnating her anyhow. She never told me about it. She just went and had an abortion without telling me about it. She knew how I felt about it.

Later on it began to eat at her. She got deeply depressed. She ended up breaking up with me because I reminded her of the abortion.

About 2 months after we broke up, she decided to tell me. She claims it was non of my business what she did with our kid.

I can't help but think at least once a day what he or she would have been like today. It has effected me emotionally as well.

To add salt to my wounds.. she feels the need to send me emails on it's supposed "birthday"

Even though I never had anything to do with her abortion, or even knew about it till it was too late. I feel guilty.

I had always told her if she ever got pregnant I would support the kid.

She didn't want the kid because it would have "cramped her style" at the moment.

She said she was only 29, and wasn't ready for stretch marks.

Perfect. Maybe you should've have married her before knocking her up.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by hyteckit:
Perfect. Maybe you should've have married her before knocking her up.

I think someone missed the gist of the post.

Had we been married, she would have STILL had the abortion. And we would probably have been divorced by now.

[voyageur]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
A personal story of mine. I had been dating a gal for a little over a year. She was on birth control.

I ended up impregnating her anyhow. She never told me about it. She just went and had an abortion without telling me about it. She knew how I felt about it.

Later on it began to eat at her. She got deeply depressed. She ended up breaking up with me because I reminded her of the abortion.

About 2 months after we broke up, she decided to tell me. She claims it was non of my business what she did with our kid.

I can't help but think at least once a day what he or she would have been like today. It has effected me emotionally as well.

To add salt to my wounds.. she feels the need to send me emails on it's supposed "birthday"

Even though I never had anything to do with her abortion, or even knew about it till it was too late. I feel guilty.

I had always told her if she ever got pregnant I would support the kid.

She didn't want the kid because it would have "cramped her style" at the moment.

She said she was only 29, and wasn't ready for stretch marks.

I am sad for you. When you told her "you would support the kid", what did she respond when you said this? If she told you she would bear any pregnancy to term, then that was wrong of her, and you were misled and should feel no guilt. In any case, it is very wrong of her to send you "birthday" emails. (what is she thinking?!) Remember it's easy to be sentimental about a child that never was. One day you'll meet the right person, and have children with her, and your real-life Zimphettes will take the place of this painful memory.

Remember too, although there are many responsible fathers, it is the woman in the end who must deal with the pregnancy, its health and career issues, and who usually shoulders the main burden of childrearing in our society. "Cramp her style" trivializes this.

It was brave to share this personal experience.

[Nicko]

Originally posted by netgear:


We penalize people for leaving loaded weapons around without safety mechanisms in place, perhaps we should start sterilizing people who can't have sex responsibly.

They used to do that in the early 20th century to people deemed unsuited to have children. Careful what you wish for.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
A personal story of mine. I had been dating a gal for a little over a year. She was on birth control.

I ended up impregnating her anyhow. She never told me about it. She just went and had an abortion without telling me about it. She knew how I felt about it.

Later on it began to eat at her. She got deeply depressed. She ended up breaking up with me because I reminded her of the abortion.

About 2 months after we broke up, she decided to tell me. She claims it was non of my business what she did with our kid.

I can't help but think at least once a day what he or she would have been like today. It has effected me emotionally as well.

To add salt to my wounds.. she feels the need to send me emails on it's supposed "birthday"

Even though I never had anything to do with her abortion, or even knew about it till it was too late. I feel guilty.

I had always told her if she ever got pregnant I would support the kid.

She didn't want the kid because it would have "cramped her style" at the moment.

She said she was only 29, and wasn't ready for stretch marks.

I'm not trying at all to "one up" your story, but my wife did the same thing. She was on the pill but apparently missed a day or something.

Anyway, she had an abortion without my knowledge, for about a month following that she was rather "cold" sexually and I was curious what was going on, but she wouldn't talk about it. At that point I was starting to think she was having an affair. but finally she told me the truth. We argued, went to counselling, but ultimately ended up getting divorced. I just couldn't trust her anymore, and if I don't trust someone, there's no way I'll stay married to them.

Fact is, I was under the impression she wanted to have children at some point, she told me that when we were engaged, but when all of this started to blow up she told me that wasn't true. It was just an ugly damned mess, which led to my divorce, and ultimately deciding to get a vasectomy... if I decide I want children down the road I can either adopt or have my tubes "untied".

[netgear]

Isn't it ironic? If the woman decides to abort then the father has no choice and no legal rights to stop it. If she keeps it then the father has no choice either if he's against it.

Ah, how the feminists have destroyed this society.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by netgear:
Isn't it ironic? If the woman decides to abort then the father has no choice and no legal rights to stop it. If she keeps it then the father has no choice either if he's against it.

Ah, how the feminists have destroyed this society.

That's sorta flame bait there, but the gist is absolutely correct. if she aborts, he can't stop her, if she doesn't, he's screwed over for the next 18 years supporting the child. Its a sad irony.

[Meneldil]

Originally posted by netgear:
Yes.

Contraceptions is so widely available in this country you can even get it out of a machine or 7-11!

I've done a lot of HIV related work in the gay community, and you'd probably be surprised how many people don't know how to use a condom, how often it will fail even when used correctly due to small tears and other factors, and things like latex should not be exposed to oil based products. The same goes for other forms of birth control. Until I got to college, I was never told the pill has a failure rate when taken correctly, and that was just in a small session held by our RA. It wasn't something I'd thought about, being gay, but I hardly think my sex education course in high school was atypical.

I think everything that is possible should be done to prevent abortions (besides, products of rape or incest, or to save the mother) like good sex education, encouraging parents to take an active role in dealing with that part of parenthood, easy access to birth control (the pill, which is the most effective method I know of except for surgery, isn't covered by a lot of health insurance plans) and so on.

That said, I'll never approve of banning abortion. Have you ever had a live changing secret to deal with? I've had to deal with coming out and thinking I had HIV at one point. I can imagine, for some people, unexpected pregnancy could be as bad. Fear can drive people to do some pretty strange things, like going and finding a coat hanger to have an amateur abortion.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by netgear:
Isn't it ironic? If the woman decides to abort then the father has no choice and no legal rights to stop it. If she keeps it then the father has no choice either if he's against it.

Ah, how the feminists have destroyed this society.

Indeed.

[netgear]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
That's sorta flame bait there, but the gist is absolutely correct. if she aborts, he can't stop her, if she doesn't, he's screwed over for the next 18 years supporting the child. Its a sad irony.

I feel that if we amend laws to allow gays to adopt then we also need to amend laws to prohibit an abortion if the father is willing to adopt as well.

[netgear]

Originally posted by Meneldil:


That said, I'll never approve of banning abortion. Have you ever had a live changing secret to deal with? I've had to deal with coming out and thinking I had HIV at one point. I can imagine, for some people, unexpected pregnancy could be as bad. Fear can drive people to do some pretty strange things, like going and finding a coat hanger to have an amateur abortion.

If we are so concerned about making abortion legal and easy to get to then why aren't there more family planning clinics around? I've known women that got abortions and none of the clinics talked about how to prevent pregnancy in the first place.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by netgear:
If we are so concerned about making abortion legal and easy to get to then why aren't there more family planning clinics around? I've known women that got abortions and none of the clinics talked about how to prevent pregnancy in the first place.

why would they? Do that would cut down on business.

[itai195]

Originally posted by netgear:
If we are so concerned about making abortion legal and easy to get to then why aren't there more family planning clinics around? I've known women that got abortions and none of the clinics talked about how to prevent pregnancy in the first place.

There are lots of family planning clinics around. Ones that don't provide adequate education should be improved, I agree.

[netgear]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
why would they? Do that would cut down on business.

In my more liberal days I attended and took part in many NOW demonstrations and what bothered me was the lack of discussing how to prevent pregnancy in the first place. This is one of many factors that swung me in the conservative direction. The hypocrisy of the feminist movement stinks like a sanitary pad that hasn't been changed in a month.

It would be like attending an NRA convention where people were handing out brochures on how to doctor GSWs without telling people "hey, be careful of that loaded gun!"

[voyageur]

Originally posted by netgear:
Isn't it ironic? If the woman decides to abort then the father has no choice and no legal rights to stop it. If she keeps it then the father has no choice either if he's against it.

Ah, how the feminists have destroyed this society.

Simple. It is part of her body till it's born.

[netgear]

Originally posted by itai195:
There are lots of family planning clinics around. Ones that don't provide adequate education should be improved, I agree.

I'm wondering why the abortion clinics don't do it. That seems to be the perfect venue to nip the problem in the bud, so to speak. But I haven't personally seen one that gives it the proper emphasis versus just doing abortion counseling.

A single birth control method has a certain chance of failure. Multiple methods reduces that chance of failure and not having sex in the first place is 100% effective in preventing pregnancy and causing a situation that results in needing that abortion.

[netgear]

Originally posted by voyageur:
Simple. It is part of her body till it's born.

No, it is not. Why do we prosecute a double murder when a pregnant woman is killed intentionally?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voyageur:
Simple. It is part of her body till it's born.

So two Siamese twins. Do one of them have the right to kill the other?

[voyageur]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
So two Siamese twins. Do one of them have the right to kill the other?

No, they're already born.

[Meneldil]

Originally posted by netgear:
In my more liberal days I attended and took part in many NOW demonstrations and what bothered me was the lack of discussing how to prevent pregnancy in the first place. This is one of many factors that swung me in the conservative direction. The hypocrisy of the feminist movement stinks like a sanitary pad that hasn't been changed in a month.

It would be like attending an NRA convention where people were handing out brochures on how to doctor GSWs without telling people "hey, be careful of that loaded gun!"

I know a lot of people working to improve sex education, access to contraception, etc. While contraception and sex education are still contentious issues, most people aren't trying to make them illegal. Maybe those activists are more focused on what is under threat at the moment? Also, why does it have to be the left's issue? Why are conservatives so opposed to comprehensive sex education? I've never heard a proposal that didn't allow for parents to have their children miss that particular class, yet many fight tooth and nail to make sure the teachers are censored as tightly as possible. To them I say grow up. Not everyone is Christian. Not everyone is even religious. They think of same sex marriage as a violation of a tradition centuries old. Someone should tell them about berdaches. They think of premarital sex as a deviant, immoral act. Someone should point out to them we live in a country where people are supposed to get to decide such things for themselves. Perhaps if they offered to give some ground on that, we could tell kids you can't keep the condom in your wallet as backup, it's too warm there.

[voyageur]

Good post, Meneldil. How ironic that opponents of abortion are so often the same ones against sex education in the schools. They also are the same ones complaining about our welfare state, and in favor of reducing taxes and cutting services like Head Start and Medicaid. That would mean supporting the democratic agenda, and my goodness, we can't have that. There is great concern for a fetus, but once it's a child, the concern vanishes.

One final note. You sad boys lamenting feminism are welcome to move to some other country where women can't vote, where they are no more than the property of their husband, if you wish. As for me, feminist that I am, I prefer a man who is strong and secure enough to relate to a woman who is his equal.

[netgear]

I don't want a woman (or a man for that matter) who is my equal. Either inferior or superior. You can't have a meaningful relationship in which there's no pecking order when it comes to decisions.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by netgear:
I don't want a woman (or a man for that matter) who is my equal. Either inferior or superior. You can't have a meaningful relationship in which there's no pecking order when it comes to decisions.

Uhh.....

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by voyageur:
No, they're already born.

"But he's attached to me and I just didn't want him around anymore"...

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by voyageur:
Good post, Meneldil. How ironic that opponents of abortion are so often the same ones against sex education in the schools. They also are the same ones complaining about our welfare state, and in favor of reducing taxes and cutting services like Head Start and Medicaid. That would mean supporting the democratic agenda, and my goodness, we can't have that. There is great concern for a fetus, but once it's a child, the concern vanishes.

One final note. You sad boys lamenting feminism are welcome to move to some other country where women can't vote, where they are no more than the property of their husband, if you wish. As for me, feminist that I am, I prefer a man who is strong and secure enough to relate to a woman who is his equal.

Oh, get over yourself. FWIW, I'm very much for sexual education, start it in 6th grade.

We're concerned about a fetus because it's not capable of defending itself, or letting others know that it's suffering or that it wants to live.

You sad girls and your lack of responsibility... tsk, tsk, tsk...

You know, YOU could always move to a country where 65% of the people DON'T think abortion is murder.

[voyageur]

Eh, I could as easily say you get over yourself, on your high moral horse, with your "abortion is murder" charge. Some of us see it more in shades of gray rather than black and white. <shrugs> But I'm here just for the entertainment value.
I'm not sure where you're getting your 65% figure. The latest polls I could find say that 47% of Americans consider themselve pro-life, a figure that hasn't changed significantly in 5 years.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by voyageur:
Eh, I could as easily say you get over yourself, on your high moral horse, with your "abortion is murder" charge. Some of us see it more in shades of gray rather than black and white. <shrugs> But I'm here just for the entertainment value.
I'm not sure where you're getting your 65% figure. The latest polls I could find say that 47% of Americans consider themselve pro-life, a figure that hasn't changed significantly in 5 years.

You're the one being condescending with your "You sad boys lamenting feminism" garbage. And no, I don't have any problem speaking my mind in regards to certain moral issues. The stupidity in regards to abortion has gone on long enough.

and I got my "numbers" from Gallup, where their poll shows 65% of people saying they believe abortion should be illegal in all or only a few circumstances (rape, incest, mother's life threatened).

And, yes, using abortion as birth control is murder.

Glad you're entertained.