[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
How has he made Canada any more dangerous? Seriously. Point out in some way with some facts to back it up.

It is now OK to preemptively invade a nation and dispose of it's government without provocation or provable justification.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
It is now OK to preemptively invade a nation and dispose of it's government without provocation or provable justification.

How many resolutions did Saddam violate?

[Capt.McDuff]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
It is now OK to preemptively invade a nation and dispose of it's government without provocation or provable justification.

How does that make Canada more dangerous?

Do you recall a peace treaty being signed signalling the end of the Gulf War?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
How many resolutions did Saddam violate?

How many resolutions has Israel violated?

[Capt.McDuff]

Did the UNSC ever threaten Israel with an ultimatum to withdraw from another sovereign nation or face the consequences?

[Wiskedjak]

No. Someone keeps on vetoing UNSC resolutions against Israel.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
No. Someone keeps on vetoing UNSC resolutions against Israel.

Who would do such a stupid thing

[Capt.McDuff]

Then a country can't violate a resolution if it doesn't get passed, right?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Then a country can't violate a resolution if it doesn't get passed, right?

you should get to know how the UN works, it it quite interesting and fun. Resolutions can also be passed in the general assembly, although they are only passed by the majority of the world's countries not by the elite in the SC.

[Wiskedjak]

What is also interesting is that some of the biggest complainers about the UN's lack of effectiveness are also some of the biggest abusers of the UNSC Veto.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
How many resolutions has Israel violated?

You bitch was regarding Iraq. Are you that ill equipped to maintain that debate that you have to now introduce another tangent?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
You bitch was regarding Iraq. Are you that ill equipped to maintain that debate that you have to now introduce another tangent?

either way, I thought we were talking about the swift boat liars for Bush.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
You bitch was regarding Iraq. Are you that ill equipped to maintain that debate that you have to now introduce another tangent?

I was only answering the question as to why I'm concerned about about the American election. You took it down the tangent of Iraq. I took your tangent down the tangent of Israel.

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
either way, I thought we were talking about the swift boat liars for Bush.

Sorry, we hijacked this one go start another....just kidding, I'm only kidding....

[Capt.McDuff]

Originally posted by voodoo:
you should get to know how the UN works, it it quite interesting and fun. Resolutions can also be passed in the general assembly, although they are only passed by the majority of the world's countries not by the elite in the SC.

But resolutions in the GC aren't binding like those from the SC, right? GC resolutions are purely symbolic.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I care because of the massive international impact that the US has. Bush has made the World a more dangerous place.

Then get your country to do something to make you safer.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Then get your country to do something to make you safer.

well...if they consider the greatest threat to world stability the Bush administration....what would you suggest their country do? Preemptively invade us?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
Sorry, we hijacked this one go start another....just kidding, I'm only kidding....

I could be wrong (its late and I"m tired) but I don't believe I've started any new swift boat liar threads since people requested I contain comments to threads already in progress...unless it was clearly a different facet of the story.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
well...if they consider the greatest threat to world stability the Bush administration....what would you suggest their country do? Preemptively invade us?

Or continue to sit on their butts and complain.

Either choice will yield the same result.

[Zimphire]

"John Kerry speaking at a Martin Luther King day celebration in Virginia last year said, quote, "I remember well April 1968, I was serving in Vietnam. A place of violence. When the news reports brought home to me and my crew mates the violence back home and the tragic news that one of the bullets flying that terrible spring took the life of Dr. King." That date, of Dr. King's death, was April 4, 1968. According to kerry's website, it was not until November 17, 1968, that he reported for duty in Vietnam."

I guess maybe that was seared in his memory too. Maybe, really, he was secretly in Cambodia. The guy is falling apart at the seams.

[Capt.McDuff]

Man, that's a classic. Let's wait to see how the Kerryheads spin this on.

[Zimphire]

He is a one trick pony.

I am surprised he hasn't tried to tell us that he is married to Morgan Fairchild.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
"John Kerry speaking at a Martin Luther King day celebration in Virginia last year said, quote, "I remember well April 1968, I was serving in Vietnam. A place of violence. When the news reports brought home to me and my crew mates the violence back home and the tragic news that one of the bullets flying that terrible spring took the life of Dr. King." That date, of Dr. King's death, was April 4, 1968. According to kerry's website, it was not until November 17, 1968, that he reported for duty in Vietnam."

Ok, here it goes.
Crew mates > **USS Gridley > Gulf of Tonkin (April 1968?)** > Vietnam?

In context:

Speaker: Senator John Forbes Kerry (MA)
Title: Martin Luther King Day Celebration Remarks
Location: Richmond, VA
Date: 01/20/2003
Senator John Kerry
Remarks As Prepared For Delivery
Martin Luther King Day Celebration
Richmond, Virginia
January 20, 2003

What a privilege it is for me to join you in celebrating the life and the personal journey of Dr. Martin Luther King. And what a journey it was - from Boston University where he studied and where his papers are housed today so that all Americans can share in them - to the Ebeneezer Baptist Church - to the Peoples' Campaign on the streets of Chicago - to a balcony in Memphis, Tennessee where so much of our idealism was shattered even as our faith in his vision endured.
I'm proud to say that Martin Luther King touched all of us, but particularly touched the spirit of my generation with his life, his spirit, his activism - and ultimately the lessons and legacy he left behind for us to carry on. For many of us, these were years of change and challenge - too often years of difficulty and division.

Dr. King was there to guide us. The challenge of his civil rights crusade struck a chord with those of us lucky enough to be in college - insulated in many ways from the struggles in the south - and it was Dr. King whose Letter from A Birmingham jail inspired us to make his cause our own - to support the Mississippi Student Voter Registration Project and the Freedom Riders. He challenged us to understand that the images of Bull Connor and his police dogs in Selma brought by television into our living rooms was not someone else's problem, it wasn't a fight that knew borders of state or region, it was an American problem to be addressed in the best spirit of our nation. He told us, �life's most persistent and nagging question is 'what are you doing for others?'� And we tried to respond. We shared his outrage that Ambassadors and visiting diplomats from Africa could land in Virginia en route to our nation's capitol and they couldn't use a public restroom or stop for a drink of water on their drive.

I will never forget my own eye opening experience --_ 1963 - driving down the East Coast - through Virginia, and South Carolina, all the way to Georgia - and seeing those signs which introduced me to a different world: �Whites Only.� And Dr. King challenged us to be citizens committed to doing something about that divide in our own great country.
Seven letters - Citizen�a word Dr. King loved because invested in it were our rights and responsibilities --_ a calling to be involved. I will never forget - in particular - what Martin Luther King spoke of when he confessed to being what he called a �maladjusted� citizen.

He said that he simply could not adjust to a world sharply divided between the hardworking many and the privileged few._ He could not accept an America where discrimination and bigotry still held citizens down. He had not been able to get comfortable with a society that had become complacent in the face of human hardship and suffering.
I remember well April, 1968 - I was serving in Vietnam�a place of violence --_ when the news reports brought home to me and my crewmates the violence back home - and the tragic news that one of the bullets flying that terrible spring took the life of that unabashedly maladjusted citizen.

I've often thought - what if he'd lived? But that's a question we can't answer - except to the extent to which we can commit ourselves to make things as he would have wanted and as we thought they might have been. That
is the challenge - today more than ever.

We should challenge ourselves to ask the question not what would Dr. King have done had he lived, but what would he want us to do the time we have left. I think if Martin Luther King was here today in Richmond he would want more of us feel the kind of maladjustment he felt - and to use the rights and responsibilities of citizenship he helped secure to build a stronger America.

I think we need a new kind of citizenship - Dr. King's citizenship�an impatient citizenship. Impatient that the freedoms_ we thought we guaranteed in the 1960's seem still to be unsecured. Governor Doug Wilder - the first African American elected governor in the old Confederacy - fought for freedom in Korea, but wasn't free to eat at a lunch counter in America. People gave their blood and even their lives to change that. Since then, another generation of African Americans have given their country their service in Vietnam, in the Persian Gulf, in Kosovo and Bosnia and are giving back to their country today around the globe But here we are more than two years after election day 2000 in Florida, and we need to make clear, the battle for civil rights in America has yet to be won. We must make clear to this Administration�we're going to live up to our own ideals and honor the service of those in uniform by making certain that every vote is counted in every county in every state in every part of our nation in every election bar none.

We must be impatient. We can't acquiesce. And we need to melt the ice of indifference that leaves three and a half million children living in poverty and creates an unemployment rate for African Americans that's double the national average. We need to melt the ice of inaction that freezes us in place even as nearly 3/4ths of the homicide victims last year
were black men . And I say to you as a former prosecutor that we need to melt the ice of avoidance that allows too many to remain silent even as study after study reveal serious questions, racial bias, and deep disparities in the way the death penalty is applied in our criminal justice system system.
I want to know why so little is being asked of us as citizens to do something about it. I'm tired of being told to wait._

But far too often the ice of indifference - and even division - hardens in Washington, D.C.._ The question has been asked in the last weeks: �is the Republican Party ashamed of Trent Lott, or just embarrassed by him?�_ And the answer seems clear - they were just embarrassed._

How else can you explain a decision to make the first act of as new Congress the re-nomination of Charles Pickering?_ A judge who thinks our hate-crime penalties are too tough._ Who tried to cut the sentence of a convicted cross-burner._ I would say respectfully Charles Pickering's appointment_ is a slap in the face to every American who truly cares about civil rights and justice.
And it only added injury to that insult when the White House moved to undermine the University of Michigan's effort to live by the core conviction that diversity is America's strength. What else can you call the decision to describe Michigan's good faith efforts as a �quota system� when it's not?_ Over and over again, this Administration tries to substitute the
rhetoric of diversity for a real civil rights agenda.Congressman Bobby Scott put it exactly right when President Bush criticized Trent Lott._ He told us that it's not the President's words you need to focus on - it's the actions._ Because while compassion is a great thing, it's not enough to feel badly for the child whose school doesn't have enough books - to feel badly for the machinist who can't support his family because he was laid off six months ago and can't find a job - or to feel badly for the single mom who works two jobs but can't afford health insurance._ You have to do something about it.
You and I share a different vision for America - an America that's impatient and bold in its commitment to justice and equality.

Just as Martin Luther King dared to dream and challenged a nation to bring that dream to life, Robert Kennedy whose life was linked to Dr. King's, and who was killed less than two months later, shared his vision as he recalled the words of the poet George Bernard Shaw._ He wrote: �Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not.� Why aren't we dreaming things that never were and asking �why not?�

Today African American families earn two-thirds of white households - about the same gap that existed when Martin Luther King was killed 35 years ago. Why not recognize that the playing field is not level and take affirmative action to bring fairness?_ We can help up the disadvantaged, without holding others down.

Next year we'll celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the Supreme Court's Brown vs. Board of Education - the case Thurgood Marshall brought to the Supreme Court to make clear there is no such thing as a school system in America that is �separate but equal.�_ But where is the same activism to shine a light on a 'separate and unequal' school system has been built in America to replace it?_ Instead of condemning another generation to schools that can't succeed, why not guarantee that when a community has no tax base to support its schools we will make good the constitutional right of every child to a first rate education?

And our indifference at home is only magnified abroad._ Instead of turning a blind eye to Africa where more than 36 million people are dying of AIDS - just think, Africa has 11% of the world's population but 70% of the population living with HIV/AIDS - why not make the world's only superpower the world's leader in beating this threat to an entire continent?

Instead of embracing symbols that divide us, here in Richmond, where in an important tribute you've memorialized_ pioneers like Arthur Ashe, why not commit ourselves black and white to breaking a remaining barrier of resistance that stands in the way of honoring Abraham Lincoln?_ What better way to say that we are all Americans than to build a memorial in the cradle of the former Confederacy to the President who kept the Union together.

I believe we need to reclaim the kind of citizenship. It's a citizenship seared into me 30 years ago when_ I served with a band of brothers in Vietnam._ We were all living together, working together, taking care of each other, kids from Arkansas, Iowa, California, Massachusetts, and a young African American gunner by the name of David Alston, from South Carolina. Color, religion, background, all of it just melted away into an understanding that we were 'Americans.' It shouldn't have to take a war to remind us understand that we're all in this together.
____
This holiday is meant to be a day on, not a day off._ Martin Luther King is remembered best for his words._ But it is his actions - and the actions of millions he inspired - that are his greatest gift to America. So let's commit today that we will stop waiting._ That we will �melt the ice of indifference.�_ That we will be �maladjusted� in the face of injustice._ That we will pull together - all of us as citizen soldiers - to ensure in deeds - not words - that no American will be left behind.
Dr. King led a generation that fought for freedom here at home._ The weapons they faced weren't biological or chemical or nuclear._ They were fire-hoses and night-sticks and dogs._ They braved them with nothing but conscience and guts and determination._ They_ fought and many died so that all Americans might be free.

Now it's time for all of us to apply the same sense of_ conscience - the same guts - the same determination - and the same impatience - to change our America for the better - and to leave behind our own contribution to the most important word in our society: citizen._ Thank you and God bless you.LINK

Kerry also mentions "in the Persian Gulf" at one point in this speech. Do you think he meant those who served in the Persian Gulf as only those on Navy vessels or were those on the ground in Iraq included in those words as well? Conversely do you think that when he said Vietnam he also included the fleet of ships participating in the Vietnam conflict or should he have said South East Asia to be more precise about that in his brief reference to various recent conflicts?

**GRIDLEY operated along the California coast until sailing for the Orient 18 November. She left Subic Bay 2 January 1967 for plane guard duty in the China Sea and the Gulf of Tonkin. After varied duties in the fighting zone, she sailed for Australia en route to the West Coast and arrived Long Beach 8 June to prepare for future action. LINK

Edit for additional info on the whereabouts and service of USS Gridley. I guess there are some more military citations to discredit for those interested in that sort of thing:
According to the most recent OPNAVNOTE 1650 (Unit Awards and Citations Master List), USS Gridley (DLG 21) is credited with a Vietnam Service Medal for the period 16-Mar-1968 to 29-Mar-1968 and 03-Apr-1968 to 07-May-1968. PDF

I think that conclusively puts John Kerry in Vietnam service on board USS Gridley between 03-Apr-1968 and 07-May-1968 when news of Martin Luther King's assassination travelled the globe.


(All Bold emphasis mine.)

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Man, that's a classic. Let's wait to see how the Kerryheads spin this on.

I gave it an honest try. What do you think?

In all fairness it must perhaps be pointed out that Kerry names no crew mates from USS Gridley in that speech but he does mention David Alston by name and he only served with him on the swift boats.

BTW. Should Tom Glen have apologized?

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
"John Kerry speaking at a Martin Luther King day celebration in Virginia last year...etc

Btw perhaps I should have made this a last edit to my post above but thanks for bringing that Kerry speech to our attention. If Kerry can achieve some of the high ideals he speaks of he might be remembered as one of the best Presidents the US has seen in a while.

[Capt.McDuff]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
I gave it an honest try. What do you think?

It seems odd that even John Kerry's official timeline on his web site says he wasn't "in Vietnam" until November 1968 when he started command of the PCF-44. His service record puts him in the Gulf of Tonkin which if you look on a map is bordered by China as well. Does merely being at any point in the Gulf of Tonkin make him "in Vietnam?" Depends on where the ship was located in relation to the war zone (which typically extends 3-12 nautical miles from the coast of the conflict).

If anything Kerry's web site developers need to get their timelines better.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
It seems odd that even John Kerry's official timeline on his web site says he wasn't "in Vietnam" until November 1968 when he started command of the PCF-44. His service record puts him in the Gulf of Tonkin which if you look on a map is bordered by China as well. Does merely being at any point in the Gulf of Tonkin make him "in Vietnam?" Depends on where the ship was located in relation to the war zone (which typically extends 3-12 nautical miles from the coast of the conflict).

If anything Kerry's web site developers need to get their timelines better.

Predictable and anticipated. Maybe you shouldn't rely on John Kerry's website for your information.

John Kerry nor his unit/ship would not have received the Vietnam Service Medal if they had not met these requirements:

Vietnam Service Medal


The armed forces' Vietnam Service Medal (at left in photo) was established by Executive Order 11231 from President Johnson's desk on 8 July 1965.



The distinctive design was the creation of sculptor Thomas Hudson Jones, a former employee of the Army's Institute of Heraldry.



The service medal was awarded to all members of the armed forces who service in Vietnam and contiguous waters and airspace between 3 July 1965 and 28 March 1973.



In addition, personnel serving in Thailand, Laos or Cambodia in direct support of operations in Vietnam during the same time period also were eligible for the medal.



To qualify for award of the VSM an individual must meet one of the following qualifications:




(1) Be attached to or regularly serve for 1 or more days with an organization participating in or directly supporting military operations.


(2) Be attached to or regularly serve for 1 or more days aboard a Naval vessel directly supporting military operations.


(3) Actually participate as a crewmember in one or more aerial flights into airspace above Vietnam and contiguous waters directly supporting military operations.


(4) Serve on temporary duty for 30 consecutive days or 60 nonconsecutive days in Vietnam or contiguous areas, except that time limit may be waived for personnel participating in actual combat operations.



Individuals qualified for the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal for reason of service in Vietnam between I July 1958 and 3 July 1965 (inclusive) shall remain qualified for that medal. Upon request, any such individual may be awarded the VSM instead of the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. No person will be entitled to both awards for Vietnam service.



Vietnam and contiguous waters, as used herein, is defined as an area which includes Vietnam and the water adjacent thereto within the following specified limits: From a point on the East Coast of Vietnam at the juncture of Vietnam with China southeastward to 21 N. Latitude, 108� 15'E. Longitude; thence, southward to 18� N. Latitude, 108� 15'E. Longitude; thence southeastward to 17� 30'N. Latitude, 111� E. Longitude; thence southward to 11� N. Latitude; 111� E. Longitude, thence southwestward to 7� N. Latitude, 105� E. Longitude; thence westward to 7� N. Latitude, 103� E. longitude, thence northward to 9� 30'N. Latitude, 103� E. Longitude, thence northeastward to 10� 15'N. Latitude, 104� 27'E. Longitude, thence northward to a point on the West Coast of Vietnam at the juncture of Vietnam with Cambodia.



There are a total of 17 campaign stars authorized for the Vietnam Service Medal. Personnel are authorized one bronze campaign star for each qualifying campaign with a silver star worn in lieu of five bronze stars.



The design of the medal's suspension ribbon reflects that of the flag of the former South Vietnam -- yellow with three red stripes. The green trim at the edges is suggestive of the jungle nature of the conflict.



At right in the photo is the Vietnam Campaign Medal, issued to eligible U.S. forces by the then-Republic of South Vietnam.



A listing of eligible periods of service is found in the Navy Battle Streamer section."

In his speech John Kerry said "I remember well April, 1968 - I was serving in Vietnam...". The NAVY records agree with him.

PS. What about Tom Glen, should he have apologized?

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
It seems odd that even John Kerry's official timeline on his web site says he wasn't "in Vietnam" until November 1968 when he started command of the PCF-44. His service record puts him in the Gulf of Tonkin which if you look on a map is bordered by China as well. Does merely being at any point in the Gulf of Tonkin make him "in Vietnam?" Depends on where the ship was located in relation to the war zone (which typically extends 3-12 nautical miles from the coast of the conflict).

If anything Kerry's web site developers need to get their timelines better.

The Gulf of Tonkin was a major support and staging area for the U.S. In fact, it provided what was probably the defining moment of the Vietnam War: in August 1964, the Pentagon reported a phony engagement there and LBJ used it to justify an escalation.

[SimeyTheLimey]

I agree with Kerry's supporters on this one. While his statement is a little fuzzy and potentially misleading, he was officially speaking on a ship deployed in support of the Vietnam war and in theater at the time he referred to. It's OK to colloquially refer to that as being in Vietnam, imho.

[dcolton]

More Confirmation that Kerry is a lying attention whore.

In a detailed new account that is certain to fuel the growing controversy, eyewitness William Schachte Jr. (search), a retired rear admiral, told columnist Robert Novak (search) for Friday's papers that he was "astonished" to hear Kerry's version of the events of Dec. 2, 1968, when Schachte was in command of Kerry aboard a skimmer boat on the Mekong River.

Schachte said that Kerry:

� Wasn't wounded by hostile fire.

� Wasn't even under fire by the enemy.

� "Nicked" himself with a grenade launcher and "requested a Purple Heart" afterward.

If Schachte's version is accurate, Kerry would not have been eligible for the award, the first of the three Purple Hearts he received.

To win a Purple Heart, military personnel must have a wound that requires medical treatment, and it must have been received during the course of an engagement with the enemy, even if the wound was not a result of hostile fire.


What happened that day on the Mekong River became an issue after some of Kerry's fellow Vietnam War officers charged in a book, "Unfit for Command," and in TV ads that he didn't deserve his medals.

Two former enlisted men who are supporting Kerry have said they were with him in the boat that day � and that Schachte was not.

But Schachte, then a lieutenant junior grade like Kerry, told Novak he was in command of the boat that day, which was Kerry's first combat mission in Vietnam.

They were aboard a small boat called a skimmer, or Boston Whaler, he said.

Schachte, now living in Charleston, S.C., said the boat fired a flare to flush enemy forces from the shoreline.

Kerry's M-16 rifle jammed, so he picked up the M-79 grenade launcher, Schachte said.

"I heard a 'thunk.' There was no fire from the enemy," Schachte recalled.

Schachte's former superior Grant Hibbard said he told Kerry to "forget it" when Kerry came to him the day after the incident and asked for a Purple Heart.

Schachte is not a member of the anti-Kerry Swift boat vets, hasn't been contacted by the Bush campaign, and told Novak that he has backed candidates from both parties in past elections.

The retired rear admiral said he hadn't spoken out earlier because "I didn't want to get involved," but changed his mind after his own role in the incident was disputed on TV.

In a related development, Robert Lambert, a fellow crewman in a separate incident for which Kerry was awarded a Bronze Star, disputed their former commander and said the boat did come under fire.

He added that Lt. Larry Thurlow, the boat's commander who has challenged Kerry's account, was too distracted to notice the gunfire because he was busy rescuing other sailors.

All five Swift boats in the task force "came under small-arms and automatic-weapon fire from the river banks," Lambert said.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by dcolton:
More Confirmation that Kerry is a lying attention whore.

Indeed. I can't believe he asked for a Purple Heart because of that.

He was really trying to "shine" his resume wasn't he.