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Powerline adapters
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Livers
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Mar 7, 2008, 04:05 AM
 
Hi,

Has anyone tried any of the netgear or dynamode powerline adpaters with their iMac's? I recently contacted Dynamode who said their product wasn't tested with MAC's (i did point out several sellers who said it was but they said it incorrectly advertised). I'm trying to set up a network at home to connect my iMac and consoles using the mains rather than wireless due to the thickness of my walls.

Any help, mucho appreciato!

T
     
cms
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Mar 7, 2008, 05:02 AM
 
I don't have any experience with the Netgear powerline units but regularly supply and install Devolo powerline networking product in mixed Apple and Windows networks. They are a German brand and widely available here in the UK. There are lots of different options (various data transfer speeds; wireless access points, etc.), they all carry a 3-year warranty and work with Apple and Windows kit right out of the box.
     
Livers  (op)
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Mar 18, 2008, 05:16 AM
 
Excellent, thank you!
     
Nivag
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Mar 18, 2008, 03:40 PM
 
The Netgear ones work as well straight out of the box.
     
turtle777
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Mar 28, 2008, 12:15 PM
 
Yes, Netgear works. I'm using an older version.

However, if you want to enable encryption, you need to use special PC software to activate it. I don't know if the newer boxes have Mac software or have browser admin access.

-t
     
Stizo99
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Mar 28, 2008, 02:45 PM
 
Does anyone know how badly the performance of these powerline adapters are affected when plugged into surge protectors or if they even work at all?

Also, is the performance affected when introducing noise in the powerline like when running a vacuum cleaner?
     
turtle777
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Mar 28, 2008, 02:57 PM
 
I haven't tried, but I read that it doesn't work going through surge protectors.

This is definitely not ideal.

I have the ethernet go through my UPS, which provides a special ethernet IN and OUT port for protection.

-t
     
cms
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Mar 28, 2008, 03:20 PM
 
Most user manuals for these devices expressly state that they should not be deployed on a surge-protected power strip. In my experience, some do work but their performance is definitely compromised.

As for vacuum cleaner noise affecting them, I really wouldn't know. Haven't used one of those in years......
     
turtle777
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Mar 28, 2008, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by cms View Post
As for vacuum cleaner noise affecting them, I really wouldn't know. Haven't used one of those in years......


I doubt my Roomba will cause interferences.

-t
     
amazing
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Mar 28, 2008, 07:57 PM
 
haven't tried these, but the feedback reviews are good (and the price is excellent!), and you don't need a PC to configure them. Surge suppressor hookup not recommended,

Amazon.com: Panasonic BL-PA100KTA Ethernet Adaptor Starter Pack Includes two HD-PLC (High Definition Power Communication): Electronics

The pdf manual from panasonic's website says:

5. If you are not able to connect an adaptor’s AC cord directly to a wall outlet and
must use a power strip, make sure the power strip is plugged directly into a
wall outlet and not to another power strip.
6. Make sure the power strip does not have a noise filter or a surge protector, as
these features may interfere with the performance of your adaptors.
7. Use a power strip with an AC cord that is as short as possible.
     
turtle777
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Mar 29, 2008, 12:54 PM
 
Ok, so I just did a test with my old Netgear Powerline XE102 adapters.

W/o surge protector: Read: about 0.6 MB/s, Write 0.45 MB/s

Stand alone surge protector: Read: about 0.35 MB/s, Write 0.15 MB/s
Power strip w/ surge protection : no connection at all
UPS (APS) with surge protection : no connection at all

Seems like IF you are lucky, you get a very reduced throughput. Worst case: nothing.

-t
     
tridentinecanon
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Mar 31, 2008, 08:04 AM
 
Not to insult anyone, but what is the point of these? The speeds noted here pale in comparison to a simple wireless network.
     
ghporter
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Mar 31, 2008, 08:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
Not to insult anyone, but what is the point of these? The speeds noted here pale in comparison to a simple wireless network.
Reinforced concrete walls, conventional wood-framed walls full of pipes and wires, distances of more than about 30 meters, intervening sources of RF interference and other issues make powerline a viable choice in certain situations. It's not for everyone, but then neither is gigabit wired Ethernet for everyone.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Nivag
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Mar 31, 2008, 08:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
Not to insult anyone, but what is the point of these? The speeds noted here pale in comparison to a simple wireless network.
Just sometimes wireless can't reach the parts of a house that your mains power already goes to. Yes you could put a wireless repeater in between to boost the signal. But it's a lot easier to use these, especially in homes.
( Last edited by Nivag; Mar 31, 2008 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Damn you ghporter for posting before me! :))
     
turtle777
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Mar 31, 2008, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
Not to insult anyone, but what is the point of these? The speeds noted here pale in comparison to a simple wireless network.
Not very well informed you are.

The latest generation of powerline adapters is WAY faster than even 802.11n.

Powerline HD Network Kit

According to Cnet, they got up to 52.7MBps throughput.

-t
     
cms
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Mar 31, 2008, 09:32 AM
 
I installed a couple of Devolo devices on a client's LAN the other day. The newer devices are advertised to run at 200 Mbps -- and they really do.
     
turtle777
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Mar 31, 2008, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by cms View Post
I installed a couple of Devolo devices on a client's LAN the other day. The newer devices are advertised to run at 200 Mbps -- and they really do.


Those are expensive ($ 240) and hard to get in the US.

I will probably grab the Netgear HD at some point.

-t
     
tridentinecanon
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Mar 31, 2008, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Not very well informed you are.

The latest generation of powerline adapters is WAY faster than even 802.11n.

Powerline HD Network Kit

According to Cnet, they got up to 52.7MBps throughput.

-t
No way! 52.7MBps!?

Since you claim to be more informed than I, could you tell me what the throughput in 802.11n is??
     
tridentinecanon
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Mar 31, 2008, 10:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Reinforced concrete walls, conventional wood-framed walls full of pipes and wires, distances of more than about 30 meters, intervening sources of RF interference and other issues make powerline a viable choice in certain situations. It's not for everyone, but then neither is gigabit wired Ethernet for everyone.
Thanks for the straightforward, non-demeaning answer, ghporter.

I figured is was a small niche in the market, and I wanted to make sure that it wasn't something I needed to consider.
     
cms
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Mar 31, 2008, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
I figured is was a small niche in the market, and I wanted to make sure that it wasn't something I needed to consider.
Hardly a small niche.... More like a creative and extremely effective way of extending networks for those who have difficulties with wireless for whatever reason, as Glenn suggests, or for those needing a consistently fast and reliable data transfer than afforded by wireless -- yes, even 802.11n in reality over sustained periods.
     
turtle777
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
No way! 52.7MBps!?

Since you claim to be more informed than I, could you tell me what the throughput in 802.11n is??
True, no way.

Should have been 52.8Mbps = 6.6MBps

From what people reported here, Airport Extreme gets about 1 - 2MBps in real life application, macintouch.com gets up to 4 MBps in some tests.

Review: AirPort Extreme 802.11n

So in the BEST case scenario, 802.11n is already 40% slower. Just think of all the extra potential drops of throughput due to interferences, walls etc.

-t
     
tridentinecanon
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:34 AM
 
Alright... thanks for the info.

Next question (since my curiosity is now peaked):

What is the potential for this powerline technology as it stands right now? Is it just for file transfers? Internet sharing? Or, can it be used to play a video file, such as a VIDEO_TS folder, that is stored on another computer?
     
Cold Warrior
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:37 AM
 
You're basically created/extending your LAN through your electrical grid, so the potential is the same as if you were running more CAT5 (taking into account speed limitations, of course).
     
cms
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
Alright... thanks for the info.

Next question (since my curiosity is now peaked):

What is the potential for this powerline technology as it stands right now? Is it just for file transfers? Internet sharing? Or, can it be used to play a video file, such as a VIDEO_TS folder, that is stored on another computer?
I think you mean "piqued" but no matter....

Yes, the faster units will indeed enable you to play VIDEO_TS files stored on another computer at full resolution and without stuttering. The Devolo units I supply even have a model specifically designed for hi-definition video streaming.
     
tridentinecanon
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by cms View Post
I think you mean "piqued" but no matter....

Yes, the faster units will indeed enable you to play VIDEO_TS files stored on another computer at full resolution and without stuttering. The Devolo units I supply even have a model specifically designed for hi-definition video streaming.
Interesting...

And no, I do not mean "piqued," but you are right in that I did not mean "peaked" either. I actually meant to say "peeked" as in "peek-a-boo look at me I'm an idiot!"

     
turtle777
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Mar 31, 2008, 12:04 PM
 
As long your curiosity is not pigged

-t
     
tridentinecanon
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Mar 31, 2008, 02:33 PM
 
Looking at some of the products offered by Netgear, I'm trying to understand exactly how a Powerline network is typically setup. For what are the network extenders used? Can't you do without them? Do they add something to the network?
     
turtle777
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Mar 31, 2008, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
Looking at some of the products offered by Netgear, I'm trying to understand exactly how a Powerline network is typically setup. For what are the network extenders used? Can't you do without them? Do they add something to the network?
You need at least two adapters.

The first plugs into the wall socket next to your router and gets connected via ethernet.

The second (third, fourth etc...) gets plugged into a wall socket anywhere in the house and delivers a network connection to its ethernet port. The network signal travels via the home electric circuitry.
If you use more than two adapters, the adapters act like dumb switches (at least, that's my understanding).

-t
     
tridentinecanon
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Mar 31, 2008, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
You need at least two adapters.

The first plugs into the wall socket next to your router and gets connected via ethernet.

The second (third, fourth etc...) gets plugged into a wall socket anywhere in the house and delivers a network connection to its ethernet port. The network signal travels via the home electric circuitry.
If you use more than two adapters, the adapters act like dumb switches (at least, that's my understanding).

-t
Gotcha. I was confused by this. It's obviously just another adapter with some space-saving features, but as we've already established I'm an idiot (at least today I am).
     
turtle777
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Mar 31, 2008, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
Gotcha. I was confused by this.
I have never seen this thing before, but sounds pretty useless to me. It'll save you ONE wall socket. Great

-t
     
mattyb
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Apr 2, 2008, 09:51 AM
 
I'm in France and an ISP here (Free.fr) supplies two of these boxes to connect the ADSL modem and the set-top-box for the TV. I'm not sure what make the kit is but the boxes resemble the XEPS103 from Netgear.

Does it work well ? Oh yeah baby! Easy to setup, picture on TV is crystal clear. I've got my iMac using the Airport from the modem (its got ethernet ports as well but the box is too far away from the Mac for me to use them).

And why would someone want this instead of wireless? Cos when you've just *GOT* to pwn someone in Call of Duty, wireless is a POS. Plus we're in rented accomadation and I'm not allowed to drill too many holes in walls or fit wires around doors.

AFAIK the equipment that my ISP supplies doesn't create a LAN, its a point-to-point solution only. You couldn't have for example have three of these boxes. They only sell them in pairs.
     
turtle777
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Apr 2, 2008, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
I'm in France and an ISP here (Free.fr) supplies two of these boxes to connect the ADSL modem and the set-top-box for the TV. I'm not sure what make the kit is but the boxes resemble the XEPS103 from Netgear.

Does it work well ? Oh yeah baby! Easy to setup, picture on TV is crystal clear. I've got my iMac using the Airport from the modem (its got ethernet ports as well but the box is too far away from the Mac for me to use them).

And why would someone want this instead of wireless? Cos when you've just *GOT* to pwn someone in Call of Duty, wireless is a POS. Plus we're in rented accomadation and I'm not allowed to drill too many holes in walls or fit wires around doors.

AFAIK the equipment that my ISP supplies doesn't create a LAN, its a point-to-point solution only. You couldn't have for example have three of these boxes. They only sell them in pairs.
Your ISP boxes MIGHT be locked in their firmware to not allow additional boxes to join the network.

But it still creates a LAN that matches ethernet specs. I'm sure you could connect computer in the box intended for the TV.

-t
     
amazing
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Apr 2, 2008, 10:37 AM
 
The Panasonic's I referenced earlier can take a goodly number of pairings, with only one set to master. So, look at the bottom of yours and find the mfg and model and download the manual, then find a store with a good return policy and see if you can pair additional satelites. If it doesn't work, you can always return them.

Circumventing the French bureaucracy is a tradition: Vive la liberté!
     
mattyb
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Apr 2, 2008, 03:14 PM
 
No manufacturer marking that I can find on the boxes - except for the standard "Made in China". For existing customers the cost is 50€ for a pair.

From the specs (rough translation done by me)
Pair of CPL boxes (Google says Courant Porteur en Ligne = Online Power Line) uses the electrical network of your domicile to link the HD box (TV-set-top-box) to the ADSL box or any other equipment (computer for example) that has a 10/100 Mbps Ethernet interface. Links up to 85Mbps. 2 boxes wall size etc.

Personally I don't think that 50€ is too bad.
     
tridentinecanon
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Apr 13, 2008, 10:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
You're basically created/extending your LAN through your electrical grid, so the potential is the same as if you were running more CAT5 (taking into account speed limitations, of course).
I now disagree.

My curiosity having been PIQUED, I went ahead an picked up two Netgear HD Powerline kits to test these suckers for myself.

The best way I can describe these things is "unreliable," however, I'm open to any suggestions that may show performance improvements.

The setup:
--- 40+ year-old 3-br duplex (renting while we renovate a house )
--- All Powerline Adapters are plugged directly into the wall outlets
--- All Ethernet cables are CAT 6, regardless of whether the device is CAT 6 capable
--- Moto Surfboard connected to TC
--- TC connected to HDX101
--- MP connected to HDX101 on other side of house from the
--- MBP connected to HDX101 in room in middle of house between other two HDX101's

The problems/performance:
--- Not only can you not connect these things to a surge protector, but a simple power strip is out of the question as well.
--- Time Machine backups on the MP to the TC essentially do not function; the error says something to the effect of: "cannot mount HD"; the problem does not occur when the MP is connected (via ethernet) to an AE that is connected wirelessly to the TC
--- Internet is spotty, at best. Sometimes it works great, perhaps faster than the wireless, but at other times, it simply won't work at all.
--- Using my MBP to watch a ripped DVD (not Bluray or HD) that is stored on my MP actually works flawlessly

Not the ideal setup, I know, but am a missing a step here?

As it stands right now, without the ability to backup using Time Machine to TC, and with such a spotty internet connection, I for one cannot rely on this technology. I would like it to improve, but I think I made a wise decision in installing gigabit throughout our new home.

Thoughts? Comments?
     
turtle777
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Apr 13, 2008, 10:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
Thoughts? Comments?
That doesn't sound promising.
I don't have the HD adapters, so I can't speak about them. My old Netgear Powerline adapters are solid, no performance drops, steady through put etc.

The only thing I can think about is that the 40yr old wiring might be the problem.

As far as the power strip problem goes, I plug my PA directly into the wall, but using these things, so it doesn't block both outlets:



-t
     
Cold Warrior
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Apr 13, 2008, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by tridentinecanon View Post
I now disagree.
My post was about the theory - how it should work. It sounds like the practical implementation isn't there yet, at least with what you purchased. Sorry to hear that.
     
tridentinecanon
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Apr 13, 2008, 11:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
That doesn't sound promising.
I don't have the HD adapters, so I can't speak about them. My old Netgear Powerline adapters are solid, no performance drops, steady through put etc.

The only thing I can think about is that the 40yr old wiring might be the problem.

As far as the power strip problem goes, I plug my PA directly into the wall, but using these things, so it doesn't block both outlets:



-t
Right, I love those "things"!! I use them to save space on surge protectors. Actually, must compliment the design of the HDX101's, as I haven't had them "block" any outlets but the one into which they are plugged.

I think it may be the 40 year-old wiring. I will hold onto these things to test them in my new(er) house when it's ready. It may also just be the wiring in the room where the TC is located in this bummy apartment, since I think that room used to be a porch and was added later. I also have WAAAY too many devices plugged into the socket right above the TC's HDX101, but I haven't read anything to suggest that this would be a problem.

If I get more time today, I might move some stuff around and see what happens, but I'm still not hopeful.
     
tridentinecanon
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Apr 13, 2008, 11:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
My post was about the theory - how it should work. It sounds like the practical implementation isn't there yet, at least with what you purchased. Sorry to hear that.
Yeah, I know... theory. I wasn't criticizing. I'm just trying to figure this out and learn more about it.

I'm at a loss as to why VIDEO_TS playback would be flawless in an apartment with 40-year old wiring, while internet and Time Machine backup would be so unreliable.

Has anyone else done a successful Time Machine backup with this type of device? To Time Capsule?
     
Cold Warrior
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Apr 13, 2008, 11:11 AM
 
How do internet speed tests look from over normal CAT5 versus testing from a machine over electric wiring?

e.g., from Speedtest.net - The Global Broadband Speed Test
     
tridentinecanon
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Apr 13, 2008, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
How do internet speed tests look from over normal CAT5 versus testing from a machine over electric wiring?
I sort of have to wait for the internet to actually work with the PAs in the first place (again, spotty) before I can test it, but I'll keep trying and get back to you.
     
tridentinecanon
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Apr 13, 2008, 11:57 AM
 
These tests are with my MBP:

Airport:
- 4813 kb/s DL
- 468 kb/s UL

CAT5:
- 4789 kb/s DL
- 476 kb/s UL

This test is with the MBP in the room in the middle of the apartment:

Powerline:
- 4808 kb/s DL
- 475 kb/s UL

This test is with the MP in a different room at the opposite side of the apartment from the TC router:

Powerline:
-4795 kb/s DL
-477 kb/s UL

I had to unplug the Powerline attached to the MP from the outlet in order to get the internet working again. We'll see how long it lasts...
     
tridentinecanon
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Apr 13, 2008, 11:59 AM
 
...And the internet already stopped working on the MP connected to the Powerline...

Edit: After unplugging and plugging back in again, the next speed test on the Powerline connected to the MP fell to:

- 1517 kb/s UL
- 353 kb/s DL
( Last edited by tridentinecanon; Apr 13, 2008 at 12:11 PM. )
     
Cold Warrior
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Apr 13, 2008, 12:43 PM
 
Ouch. Comparable first-run results, but not much use if they stop working after that. I wonder if the PAs have some kind of auto-sleep setting where they go on standby after x amount of time.
     
tridentinecanon
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Apr 13, 2008, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
Ouch. Comparable first-run results, but not much use if they stop working after that. I wonder if the PAs have some kind of auto-sleep setting where they go on standby after x amount of time.
I doubt it. Sometimes they don't work at all after immediately being turned on ( i.e. plugged in). Sometimes they don't even get a Powerline "connection" (there is a light on the device that indicates this).

I think it is a wiring problem with this house, but I'd still like to know if anyone has any similar trouble with Time Machine backups to TC...
     
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Apr 13, 2008, 06:14 PM
 
To test the gadgets, you could plug a couple of extension cords into the same outlet, then plug each device into a different cord. That'll give you power and conductors, and if there's a problem with them, they'll misbehave there too. That will let you pretty easily determine whether it's the PLs or the wiring.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
amazing
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Apr 14, 2008, 07:33 PM
 
Powerline adapters really, really don't like surge protectors, so do you have them plugged directly into the wall for the tests?

The question in my mind is what happens if you have an electrical storm or lightning strike, with no surge protection?
     
turtle777
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Apr 14, 2008, 10:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by amazing View Post
Powerline adapters really, really don't like surge protectors, so do you have them plugged directly into the wall for the tests?

The question in my mind is what happens if you have an electrical storm or lightning strike, with no surge protection?
That's the ONE big flaw I see with powerline adapters.
I at least hope the adapter itself works like a surge protector, so that my mini doesn't get fried through ethernet. I know, weak hope

-t
     
Cold Warrior
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Apr 14, 2008, 10:24 PM
 
A lot of surge protectors support ethernet. You could plug the PL adapter into the socket, but route the ethernet through a surge protector to your Mac.
     
turtle777
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Apr 15, 2008, 02:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
A lot of surge protectors support ethernet. You could plug the PL adapter into the socket, but route the ethernet through a surge protector to your Mac.
I have done that on one end, where my iMac sits.

But my mini doesn't have a fancy surge protector like that. Not yet anyways.

-t
     
 
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