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Lerkfish · Aug 21, 2004, 11:11 PM

interesting. my assumption is that Kerry got McCain's permission for this ad, but I don't know that...regardless, it shows that Rove never tires of the same foul strategies...

read the bottom parts of the page, but also listen to the ad.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/r...004_0821c.html

I think this brings up a good question, in a roundabout way: Bush uses the IRaq soccer team in his ads, and the team objected to it, but Bush campaign will not pull it.

I"m not sure of the legal nuances...can your name and image be used in a campaign ad, in such a way as to imply endorsement, without your permission?

I'm not sure that McCain necessarily wants to appear to be helping the Kerry campaign, so I welcome discussion on this...not sure myself how I feel about it as an abstract concept.

CreepingDeth · Aug 21, 2004, 11:25 PM

This "ad" plays into the belief among the paranoid that McCain had a similar experience to "Bush backed" attacks on Veterans, indirectly saying the SBVT is a Bush ploy like McCain's. Round of applause for Kerry for not facing the issue.

Also, I do believe you need permission for your image to be used in a advertisement.

LoganCharles · Aug 21, 2004, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I think this brings up a good question, in a roundabout way: Bush uses the IRaq soccer team in his ads, and the team objected to it, but Bush campaign will not pull it.

Regarding the Iraqi soccer team: They wouldn't even be there if it were not for Bush. I figure it's fair enough to use their image as representative of Bush's policies in a positive effect.

Lerkfish · Aug 22, 2004, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
This "ad" plays into the belief among the paranoid that McCain had a similar experience to "Bush backed" attacks on Veterans, indirectly saying the SBVT is a Bush ploy like McCain's. Round of applause for Kerry for not facing the issue.

Also, I do believe you need permission for your image to be used in a advertisement.

Not clear...are you saying McCain did not experience similar attacks organized by Rove?

Lerkfish · Aug 22, 2004, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
Regarding the Iraqi soccer team: They wouldn't even be there if it were not for Bush. I figure it's fair enough to use their image as representative of Bush's policies in a positive effect.

*fair enough* might differ on who you ask.

I'm not entirely sure I am on one side of this issue or the other completely, but as of right now, I am thinking that even if its not illegal to use someone's image without their permission, it should be...

but even as I type that I realize that's impossible, because Bush ads would have to have pictures of Kerry to talk about him.

Maybe the difference is not to use if implying endorsement that doesn't exist? still a shaky and blurred area to determine.

spacefreak · Aug 22, 2004, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I think this brings up a good question, in a roundabout way: Bush uses the IRaq soccer team in his ads, and the team objected to it, but Bush campaign will not pull it.

The new coach and one player have voiced opposition to the ad, and they hadn't even seen the ad yet when interviewed about it. There's more than 2 people on a soccer team.

Lerkfish · Aug 22, 2004, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
The new coach and one player have voiced opposition to the ad, and they hadn't even seen the ad yet when interviewed about it. There's more than 2 people on a soccer team.

but you don't know the position of the rest of the team on it. You're assuming it differs.
I have no idea either way, but even if you are correct, at least two people are being used against their consent. Unless you're suggesting individuals in a sports team have no rights or voice apart from the team...

placebo1969 · Aug 22, 2004, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
but you don't know the position of the rest of the team on it. You're assuming it differs.
I have no idea either way, but even if you are correct, at least two people are being used against their consent. Unless you're suggesting individuals in a sports team have no rights or voice apart from the team...

[Spock]The need of the many outweighs the needs of the few or one[/Spock]

Lerkfish · Aug 22, 2004, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by placebo1969:
[Spock]The need of the many outweighs the needs of the few or one[/Spock]

fictional aliens aside, if a political party used one person's image to campaign for someone that that person opposed, would they approve, even if it was group shot?

It could very well be that there's no restrictions, I'm just discussing the pros and cons of the situation.

placebo1969 · Aug 22, 2004, 12:38 AM

I've seen Kerry in Bush ads. I don't think he (Kerry) would approve of them.

Lerkfish · Aug 22, 2004, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by placebo1969:
I've seen Kerry in Bush ads. I don't think he (Kerry) would approve of them.

ok.....let me back up a bit.

I'm talking about usage that appears to endorse someone on the other team, or appears to attack someone on your same term.

That's a very generalized way of saying it.

zigzag · Aug 22, 2004, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
interesting. my assumption is that Kerry got McCain's permission for this ad, but I don't know that...regardless, it shows that Rove never tires of the same foul strategies...

read the bottom parts of the page, but also listen to the ad.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/r...004_0821c.html

I think this brings up a good question, in a roundabout way: Bush uses the IRaq soccer team in his ads, and the team objected to it, but Bush campaign will not pull it.

I"m not sure of the legal nuances...can your name and image be used in a campaign ad, in such a way as to imply endorsement, without your permission?

I'm not sure that McCain necessarily wants to appear to be helping the Kerry campaign, so I welcome discussion on this...not sure myself how I feel about it as an abstract concept.

I know next to nothing about election/campaign law but in other respects it raises interesting questions. The clips themselves are probably owned by broadcasters of some sort, which raises copyright/fair use issues. But the question of using McCain's or the Iraqi soccer team's images probably involves an area known as the "right of publicity," which creates liability for the unauthorized use of a person's likeness for commercial purposes. I don't know if or how that rule has been applied in a political context.

spacefreak · Aug 22, 2004, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
but you don't know the position of the rest of the team on it. You're assuming it differs.
I have no idea either way, ...

But I didn't claim that the entire team felt one way or another based on what 2 members stated, as you did. If you have "no idea either way", why would you make the statement that the "team" objected to it instead of simply noting that some members of the team object?

BRussell · Aug 22, 2004, 11:49 AM

Is this an online-only ad? That's the impression I got. If so, I think it should be televised too. Kerry's supporters want to see him hit back, and hit back hard. This is the ad to do it.

And stop with this whiny "please take your ad down" stuff. They should want the swiftee ads to stay up so they can use it against him.

CreepingDeth · Aug 22, 2004, 11:53 AM

And Kerry's really gonna hit back hard: "This ad is a hoax and it is full of untruths. Get me my lawyers!"

That's all we're gonna get from that guy.

Lerkfish · Aug 22, 2004, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
But I didn't claim that the entire team felt one way or another based on what 2 members stated, as you did. If you have "no idea either way", why would you make the statement that the "team" objected to it instead of simply noting that some members of the team object?

Good catch, I stand corrected. I did say that in the first post, but I was using it as an illustrative example to my point, rather than arguing that particular case.

If nothing else, it illustrates the problem. the impression will be that the entire team supports bush.

olePigeon · Aug 22, 2004, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
Regarding the Iraqi soccer team: They wouldn't even be there if it were not for Bush. I figure it's fair enough to use their image as representative of Bush's policies in a positive effect.

So was their football team suddenly not going to exist in 2004?

LoganCharles · Aug 22, 2004, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
So was their football team suddenly not going to exist in 2004?

No. But they would not of been allowed to participate in the 2004 Olympics were they still under Saddam's rule.

macvillage.net · Aug 22, 2004, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by placebo1969:
I've seen Kerry in Bush ads. I don't think he (Kerry) would approve of them.

McCain is playing a tightrope.

He wants to remain neutral, while still being a republican.

If you've noticed. He's been taking shots at both sides, and helping both sides. He's condemned Bush, and supported Bush. Same towards Kerry.

Part of the reason why I'm a McCain fan. I think he's got more brains and ethics than the other two a$$hats combined and multiplied by 5.

LoganCharles · Aug 22, 2004, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
McCain is playing a tightrope.

He wants to remain neutral, while still being a republican.

If you've noticed. He's been taking shots at both sides, and helping both sides. He's condemned Bush, and supported Bush. Same towards Kerry.

Part of the reason why I'm a McCain fan. I think he's got more brains and ethics than the other two a$$hats combined and multiplied by 5.

No, you like McCain because he's safe. It's ok to say you like McCain, you won't offend anybody. You say you like Bush or Kerry then you're liable to piss somebody off.

spacefreak · Aug 23, 2004, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
interesting. my assumption is that Kerry got McCain's permission for this ad, but I don't know that...regardless, it shows that Rove never tires of the same foul strategies...

read the bottom parts of the page, but also listen to the ad.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/r...004_0821c.html

Wondering why the Kerry ad didn't show the conclusion of the exchange or Bush's response to McCain's diatribe?

MCCAIN: We're running nothing but positive campaign from now on. I committed to that. I promised that.

KING: Now, are you saying that George W. Bush --

MCCAIN: I hope that you will take yours off the air.

AUDIENCE (Applause.)

BUSH: Let me just say --

KING: Please -- are you saying that governor Bush was responsible for that call?

MCCAIN: I don't know who was responsible for it, but I know that the attacks go on.

BUSH: Let me just say one thing. Let me say one thing about all this business, John.

MCCAIN: I told you. I pulled them all down.

BUSH: You didn't pull this ad.

MCCAIN: Yes, I did.

BUSH: This that ended up in a man's windshield yesterday? That questions my -- this is a -- this is an attack piece.

MCCAIN: That is not by my campaign.

BUSH: Well, it says, "Paid for by John McCain."

AUDIENCE: (Laughter)

MCCAIN: It is not by my campaign.

macvillage.net · Aug 23, 2004, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
No, you like McCain because he's safe. It's ok to say you like McCain, you won't offend anybody. You say you like Bush or Kerry then you're liable to piss somebody off.

Perhaps that's your reasoning... but not mine.

He's not really safe.

He's still despised by extreme Democrats, and even more my some Republicans. He's taken a lot of heat this election as well for attacking both sides.

tie · Aug 23, 2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
And Kerry's really gonna hit back hard: "This ad is a hoax and it is full of untruths. Get me my lawyers!"

That's all we're gonna get from that guy.

Kerry's a wimp. Bush would bomb half of them and send the rest to Guantanamo. I know who I'm supporting for president (Bush, obviously).

greenamp · Aug 23, 2004, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Wondering why the Kerry ad didn't show the conclusion of the exchange or Bush's response to McCain's diatribe?

MCCAIN: We're running nothing but positive campaign from now on. I committed to that. I promised that.

KING: Now, are you saying that George W. Bush --

MCCAIN: I hope that you will take yours off the air.

AUDIENCE (Applause.)

BUSH: Let me just say --

KING: Please -- are you saying that governor Bush was responsible for that call?

MCCAIN: I don't know who was responsible for it, but I know that the attacks go on.

BUSH: Let me just say one thing. Let me say one thing about all this business, John.

MCCAIN: I told you. I pulled them all down.

BUSH: You didn't pull this ad.

MCCAIN: Yes, I did.

BUSH: This that ended up in a man's windshield yesterday? That questions my -- this is a -- this is an attack piece.

MCCAIN: That is not by my campaign.

BUSH: Well, it says, "Paid for by John McCain."

AUDIENCE: (Laughter)

MCCAIN: It is not by my campaign.

That my friend is a SMACKDOWN.

good work

spacefreak · Aug 23, 2004, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by greenamp:
That my friend is a SMACKDOWN.

good work

Even more from that debate...

BUSH: Let me say something, John. Let me finish. Let me finish.

John, I believe that you served our country nobly. And I've said it over and over again. That man wasn't speaking for me. He may have a dispute with you...

MCCAIN: He was at your event.

BUSH: Let me finish please, please.

MCCAIN: He's listed as your (inaudible)

BUSH: Let me finish. Let me finish.

KING: All right, let him finish.

BUSH: The man was not speaking for me. If you want to know my opinion about you, John, you served our country admirably and strongly, and I'm proud of your record, just like you are.

And I don't appreciate what he said about my dad, either. But let me say something, if you're going to be -- hold me responsible for what people for me say, I'm going to do the same for you. And let me give you one example.

Warren Rudman, the man who you had as your campaign man in New Hampshire, said about the Christian Coalition that they're bigots. He talked about the Christian Coalition in a way that was incredibly strong. I know you don't believe that, do you?

MCCAIN: George, he's entitled to his opinion on that issue.

BUSH: Well, so is this man.

(APPLAUSE)