[Lerkfish]

http://archive.aclu.org/news/n081997a.html

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Tuesday, August 19, 1997


ST. LOUIS -- The American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri today condemned the Missouri Department of Corrections for failing to act sooner in response to reports that Missouri prisoners being housed in a Texas jail facility were subjected to repeated abuse by prison guards.


After obtaining a 1996 video tape of the abuse, which included guards forcing dozens of prisoners to crawl naked along prison floors while guards kicked and beat them, zapped their backsides and genitals with stun guns, and had guard dogs bite prisoners, the corrections department announced Friday that Missouri was canceling its $6 million contract with the Brazoria Detention Center in Brazoria Texas, which was housing 415 Missouri inmates as part of Missouri�s cell-leasing program in Texas.


Corrections Department officials estimate that Missouri prisoners will be removed from Brazoria by the end of the week.


"While we�re glad that Missouri prisoners are finally being taken out of this abusive situation, we feel this action comes too late," said Deborah Jacobs, Executive Director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri. "The Department of Corrections has received numerous complaints of this type of abuse since 1996 and has failed to act until now.


"We�ve been trying for almost a year to remedy the deplorable conditions and abuse in Texas jail facilities," Jacobs continued. "It�s disappointing that it took a video tape to force the corrections department to take action on these well-documented complaints."

Bush was governor at the time.

[davesimondotcom]

In other news, one year ago this month, a scourge was released upon the planet. It was called Gigli.

Bush was President at the time.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
In other news, one year ago this month, a scourge was released upon the planet. It was called Gigli.

Bush was President at the time.

Very good. That certainly cancels the Texas prison issue out.

[dcolton]

MO prisoners in TX. More than likely a private jail. This issue had ZERO to do with Bush. It is between the state of Missouri and Brazoria (the name of the jail - which is a private prison)

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:

The American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri today condemned the Missouri Department of Corrections for failing to act sooner , , ,


. . . "It�s disappointing that it took a video tape to force the corrections department to take action on these well-documented complaints."

Basic reading comprehension. The corrections department that took action after seeing a video tape is the Missouri Department of Corrections, as identified in the first paragraph.

FYI, the governor of Missouri at the time was Mel Carnahan a Democrat. The current governor if Missouri is Bob Holden, also a Democrat.

[Spliffdaddy]

*SMACKDOWN*

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Very good. That certainly cancels the Texas prison issue out.

However, it does point out the red herring-esque quality of Lerk's "Bush was Governor at the time" statement.

A simple Googling would find out that Brazoria Detention Center is a private jail, not a Texas state prison, and therefore it has NADA to do with George W. Bush as Governor.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Basic reading comprehension. The corrections department that took action after seeing a video tape is the Missouri Department of Corrections, as identified in the first paragraph.

FYI, the governor of Missouri at the time was Mel Carnahan, a Democrat.

This has to be embarrassing for the conspiracy theorist.



Maybe that smiley above needs a tin foil hat.

Is it me, or has Lerk gotten more desperate as election time draws nearer?

[dcolton]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Basic reading comprehension. The corrections department that took action after seeing a video tape is the Missouri Department of Corrections, as identified in the first paragraph.

FYI, the governor of Missouri at the time was Mel Carnahan, a Democrat.

In Lerks defense, the prisoners were housed in TX...but it was a private jail and the safety of the prisoners was ultimately the responsibility of MO and democratic governor Mel Carnahan.

I wonder...

Lerkfish, are you secretly working for the Kerry campaign? Do you post anti-Bush drivel on multiple discussion boards? I mean, you pulled up an article that is nearly a decade old and has NOTHING to do with Bush! It's ok if you have an agenda...but please quit insulting the intelligence of Republicans and Democrats a like with your thinly veiled propoganda, distortions, and theories.

[Capt.McDuff]

I had a cold while Bush was Guv'nor of Texas. Must be his fault too

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Basic reading comprehension. The corrections department that took action after seeing a video tape is the Missouri Department of Corrections, as identified in the first paragraph.

FYI, the governor of Missouri at the time was Mel Carnahan a Democrat. The current governor if Missouri is Bob Holden, also a Democrat.

OUCH!

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by dcolton:

Lerkfish, are you secretly working for the Kerry campaign? Do you post anti-Bush drivel on multiple discussion boards? I mean, you pulled up an article that is nearly a decade old and has NOTHING to do with Bush! It's ok if you have an agenda...but please quit insulting the intelligence of Republicans and Democrats a like with your thinly veiled propoganda, distortions, and theories.

I kinda figured that out a while back. He must be with some Democrat special interest group (Moveon or similar). Why else would he spam MacNN?

[ThinkInsane]

Discuss the topic, not Lerk.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Discuss the topic, not Lerk.

"Lerk" wouldn't be discussed so much if he would stop posting threads like this day after day after day....

It's getting to the point where he is just being a parody of himself.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Discuss the topic, not Lerk.

Sorry.

[Lerkfish]

The coincidental parts were the ones I highlighted. The same types of abuse in Abu Ghraib and Texas private jails. the same pattern of red flags and reports about the abuse that didn't acheive notice until pictures/videos were released to the public.

I find it interesting that the two events, the Texas private jail abuses, and the Abu Ghraib could be THAT similar, down to the tactics and the dogs.


My point about Bush was that this was a big story nationally, and it occurred in Texas, so I'm sure Bush heard about it (unless someone is suggesting he was a clueless governor).
If he had already been through this sort of problem as a governor, he should have been more aware than most about this sort of problem when the Abu Ghraib abuses broke.

As for coincidence, it is not inconceivable to think that similar agents in both cases relied on similar or the same sources for ways to "soften" prisoners. The Civilian contractors in Iraq were sent from a private company, just like a private company ran the prison...

It's just an odd coincidence.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
"Lerk" wouldn't be discussed so much if he would stop posting threads like this day after day after day....

It's getting to the point where he is just being a parody of himself.

a similar number of threads are begun by republicans on this board, a great many of them by you. Mostly they are "negative" against Kerry...what do you suggest is the allowed ratio? If you feel the number is off balance, post some more of your own.

[Zimphire]

Lerk was that a feeble attempt at back peddling?

I would shy away from "conspiracy theories" in here for awhile if I was you.

IMHO of course.

It isn't gaining you any credibility.

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
a similar number of threads are begun by republicans on this board, a great many of them by you. Mostly they are "negative" against Kerry...what do you suggest is the allowed ratio? If you feel the number is off balance, post some more of your own.

Heh Lerk, I RARELY post new threads anymore.

MOST are based on humor. Not political conspiracies.

While I HAVE posted them before, I don't make a HABIT of doing it multiple times on a daily basis like you do.

If you would like, I can tally up which side posts the most conspiracy nonsense.

I can even rate them by USER if you wish.

But I don't think you'd want me to do that now would you.

[Zimphire]

Facts are, bad things happen in MOST prisons. No matter where they are. No matter WHO was in office.

Stop trying to force pieces of the puzzle that don't fit.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
The coincidental parts were the ones I highlighted. The same types of abuse in Abu Ghraib and Texas private jails. the same pattern of red flags and reports about the abuse that didn't acheive notice until pictures/videos were released to the public.

I find it interesting that the two events, the Texas private jail abuses, and the Abu Ghraib could be THAT similar, down to the tactics and the dogs.


My point about Bush was that this was a big story nationally, and it occurred in Texas, so I'm sure Bush heard about it (unless someone is suggesting he was a clueless governor).
If he had already been through this sort of problem as a governor, he should have been more aware than most about this sort of problem when the Abu Ghraib abuses broke.

As for coincidence, it is not inconceivable to think that similar agents in both cases relied on similar or the same sources for ways to "soften" prisoners. The Civilian contractors in Iraq were sent from a private company, just like a private company ran the prison...

It's just an odd coincidence.

If you want to look for connections, you would do better to look at Virginia jails. The sergeant who is at the heart of the Abu-Ghraib abuse is a national guardsman whose day job was as a prison guard in Virginia. CBS

However, you may not want to try to link that to the governor, because Virginia's Governor Warner is also a Democrat.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
If you want to look for connections, you would do better to look at Virginia jails. The sergeant who is at the heart of the Abu-Ghraib abuse is a national guardsman whose day job was as a prison guard in Virginia. CBS

However, you may not want to try to link that to the governor, because Virginia's Governor Warner is also a Democrat.

Wow another Dem in this mess!?!?! I BET IT'S a LEFT WING CONSPIRACY!

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
If you want to look for connections, you would do better to look at Virginia jails. The sergeant who is at the heart of the Abu-Ghraib abuse is a national guardsman whose day job was as a prison guard in Virginia. CBS

However, you may not want to try to link that to the governor, because Virginia's Governor Warner is also a Democrat.

were there similar abuses going on in Virginia? I honestly don't know, I'm asking. If there were not, then of course that would not be what I'm concerned about. I'm noting the similarity in tactics of the abuse process...

the party of the governor was not the point, but rather that Bush had already been though something similar, so should have been prepared for these new charges when they came due.

The point about the videos is not an indictment of Bush, but rather the odd way that abuses of any kind can happen, but until someone SEES it, it is not really an outrage. That
s more a commentary on society in general.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
were there similar abuses going on in Virginia? I honestly don't know, I'm asking. If there were not, then of course that would not be what I'm concerned about. I'm noting the similarity in tactics of the abuse process...

the party of the governor was not the point, but rather that Bush had already been though something similar, so should have been prepared for these new charges when they came due.

The point about the videos is not an indictment of Bush, but rather the odd way that abuses of any kind can happen, but until someone SEES it, it is not really an outrage. That
s more a commentary on society in general.

Virginia doesn't have a great reputation. For example, here. You could probably find similar accounts in all other states too. I'm no expert on it, but I think this is a hidden problem in prison discipline that bears examination. It would be a good topic for a thread that doesn't try to score party points.

Respectfully, if your intent was to discuss this in the way you say above that you are, you could have been more clear in your initial post and in your choice of thread title. The way you set it out seemed on its face to be implying some direct connection between the abuse in Iraq, similar abuse that you (wrongly) thought was the responsibility of the governor of Texas, and the identity of the governor at the time as the sitting president, then drawing that back again to the abuse in Iraq. You are free to deny it, but I suspect that impression was not accidental.

That connection is obviously untenible because the prison was private, and the governor concerned was from another state. It took no significant research to uncover that, and in fact the press release you cited was clear on its face that this really involved Missouri, not Texas. A little skepticism and research would have shown that the premise was simply wrong in all respects.

As for what you now say you want to discuss, I remind you that this was abuse by very low ranking soldiers at one particular facility. None of the soldiers so far indicted is above the rank of staff sergeant. Do you have any idea how many levels of command there are between a staff sergeant and the commander in chief? As the official reports indicate, there was a failure of command on the part of the military commanders of this unit, and the commanders above that. But presidents don't do day-to-day supervision of soldiers.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
As for what you now say you want to discuss, I remind you that this was abuse by very low ranking soldiers at one particular facility. None of the soldiers so far indicted is above the rank of staff sergeant. Do you have any idea how many levels of command there are between a staff sergeant and the commander in chief? As the official reports indicate, there was a failure of command on the part of the military commanders of this unit, and the commanders above that. But presidents don't do day-to-day supervision of soldiers.

Who is in charge of sending the civilian contractors? Who approved their travel to the prison?

[Spliffdaddy]

Why don't you tell us. It's your thread you're trying to save.

[SimeyTheLimey]

You know, on second thoughts, maybe I should spell out just how extensive a typical soldier's chain of command really is. People do seem to misunderstand how it works.

This is intended to be generic and practical. There are some theoretical exceptions to do with the difference between officers and Non-Commissioned officers I have highlighed those:

TYPICAL CHAIN OF COMMAND.

Private (or Specialist) Snuffy Smith -->Sgt Team Leader --> SSgt Squad Leader --> SFC Platoon Sergeant* --> 2LT Platoon Leader --> 1SG First Sergeant* --> Cpt. Company Commander --> LTC Batallion Commander --> Col Brigade Commander --> MG Division Commander --> LTG Corps Commander --> Gen Combatant Commander --> Secretary of Defense --> President of the United States

* these positons are theoretically not in the Chain of Command, but from a soldier's point of view these non-commissioned ranks are functionally in the typical soldier's chain of command. In theory, however, there are two parallel chains, and NCO's above squad leader belong to the Chain of Support. There are also some variations depending on whether it is peacetime or wartime. This is the wartime chain of command.

In practice, most soldiers never meet anyone above their batallion commander. Most of their daily interaction is within their platoons, so the most important people are the team and squad leaders, and platoon sergeant, and first sergeant. Soldiers generally do not receive commands directly from their platoon leaders or company commanders. The higher commanders are for the most part nothing but abstract names to recognize and people to salute on the off chance that you might pass them somewhere. Orders and instructions come down from them, but usually only through the chain of command.

Supervision is exclusively through the chain of command. Each soldier is supervised by the person above them in the chain of command. If a person higher in the chain of command observes a problem in a soldier not directly supervised by him, he will generally bring that to the attention of the supervisor rather than dealing with it himself. Because as i stated above most soldiers don't interact directly with their commanders at the company level or above, their commanders must rely on the supervision provided at the platoon and squad levels.

All the Abu Ghraib soldiers directly involved who have been identified so far are in the ranks of Staff Sergeant or below. Most are in the lowest or next to lowest positions in the chain of command. This INCLUDES the military intelligence soldiers.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Why don't you tell us. It's your thread you're trying to save.

I'm even embarrassed. He has to be.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I'm even embarrassed. He has to be.

ROFLMAO

[Capt.McDuff]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
"Lerk" wouldn't be discussed so much if he would stop posting threads like this day after day after day....

It's getting to the point where he is just being a parody of himself.