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DUDE 007 · Oct 1, 2003, 03:27 AM

I have heard from different people that the GHZ ratings for Mac are different than the PC ratings...is this true?
They say that the G4 1.33GHZ powerbook is comparable to a Pentium 4 2.6 GHZ....is this also true?
I am just about to purchase a new PB 17 and will be using it mainly for audio production running Logic Platinum 6. I am hoping that the PB G4 17" is sufficient enough to do what I want. So far based on what i've researched everyone seems to agree that the PB G4 17" is a powerhouse and will do just fine and more.
Can anyone help?

dennis88 · Oct 1, 2003, 03:38 AM

Don't forget that panther will come anytime now, and it will give the powerbook a BIG boost in performance!

nagromme · Oct 1, 2003, 04:52 AM

That's a very fast machine--I'm probably getting one myself. People have used MUCH slower PowerBooks for Logic in the past.

And you're right that GHz can't be compared between Macs and PCs. It's Apples and oranges. There's no TRUE comparison except to look at specific real-world situations, with specific settings, and see which machine gets done faster.

But as a GENERAL rule, many people estimate a G4 to be as fast as Pentium 4 with 50% higher MHz. So a 1 Ghz G4 might equal a 1.5 Ghz desktop P4. (Laptop Pentiums are another matter--generally slower than desktop Pentiums, but the low-Ghz Pentium-Ms aren't bad.) Some comparisons estimate the G4 at only 40% higher, while others estimate double the Mhz! And for SIMD operations, the G4's velocity engine is a real benefit over x86. Plus, the G4 in these PowerBooks is the latest generation (more L2 cache) and actually a bit faster than previous G4s, even of the same Mhz.

The reason for the Mhz myth is that Mhz/GHz simply measures how many times a processor cycles in each second. A 1.33 Ghz G4 runs its cycle 1.33 billion times per second. But what does a cycle a mean? Some designs--like the G3/G4/G5--do a lot more work PER cycle than other processors. That means Mhz is pretty useless for many speed comparisons.

And I agree: waiting for Panther will save you the bother/cost of upgrading--and it's a MAJOR new OS. (As long as Logic runs on Panther,or will with a free patch).

herbsman · Oct 1, 2003, 01:57 PM

this thing is pretty fast compared to the 1ghz tibook that i just sold. i am very impressed with this computer great job apple.

Daniel Bayer · Oct 1, 2003, 02:26 PM

Agreeeeed..mine is a good chunk faster than my 1ghz ti.

The 7200 rpm drive is pretty slick as well.

And...then it all get's more fun with a fresh plug of "Tube Fuel"

DUDE 007 · Oct 1, 2003, 02:56 PM

Thanks everybody.

As for the hard drive, I know that the stock drive is 4200rpm but I will be getting an external firewire drive that will be 7200rpm and I will use that for all audio and video work. I was debating whether or not I should upgrade the internal HD to the 5400rpm option or scarp it altogether and save for a tasty LACIE firewire drive???

ctishue21 · Oct 1, 2003, 02:59 PM

I got the stock model from the local Apple Store. I got the Hitachi 80GN 4200rpm drive in mine which, according to barefeats.com, is faster than the other stock 4200rpm model apple uses, the fujitsu.

All I can say is that this machine flies. Without running any benchmarks I know it dusts my old dual 500 G4 that it is replacing.

AssassyN · Oct 1, 2003, 03:00 PM

I'd opt for the internal 5400RPM drive...you'll have a lot of work cut out for yourself if you try to change internal drives later, and ESCP. w/ audio, the faster the RPMs, the better.

Podolsky · Oct 1, 2003, 03:46 PM

I did opt for 5400 in the 17 and it will be here day after tomorrow - yummmm

I keep Powerbooks for 2 years and with this drive, I can put it of mind that I have, well at least a pretty fast drive. Externals are an option like you say.

dennis88 · 05:35 PM

I just got my brand new 15" 1,25ghz, and it's awesome!
It feels soo fast, and I have just innstalled extra ram, so now I have 1024mb ram.

I got 109,19 xbench score and 152 cpu score last time I ran xbench.

I'm just so happy, this thing is just perfect!
I love it!

LfGrdMike · Oct 1, 2003, 05:24 PM

Differences in pipelines and stuff. I think G4 is 7 steps and the PC processors can be like 20 steps. Imagine if it only took 7 quick steps to make a piszza at 1.33 ghz that would be fast. Their are other factors too.

Please don't flame me for not being a mastermind with processors im just giving a rough example and my pipeline numbers for could be wrong. I know the mac one is right read it in macaddicts great article a few issues back.

So now I wonder will I get flamed?

Anyway dude my 867MHZ 12 INch is faster than every PC I have ever used. So these thins scream take all of our words for it. Im assuming you might have been lurking around teh mac rumors forums where some individuals are starting to lose their lives over processors. Sometimes i wonder if thats all they talk about on that web site.

Anyhow dont listen to the people over there. Half of what they say is pulled out their you know whats. Many of them say the G4 is outdated and all this hog wash. False info like that. Gobby or whatever the heck the next G3 is that IBM is making is for the ibook, and no one speaks of that over there. So we can assume the only reason they say stupid crap like this is because of the G5. Trust me and everyone else on this normal mac board full of people that know what they are talking about. The G4 is fast. Still with OSX their are other factors get at least 512mb of memory for example/

bonk · Oct 1, 2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by LfGrdMike:
Differences in pipelines and stuff. I think G4 is 7 steps and the PC processors can be like 20 steps. Imagine if it only took 7 quick steps to make a piszza at 1.33 ghz that would be fast. Their are other factors too.

I won't flame you, I'll politely correct you

A longer pipeline is better. Yes it takes more steps to complete an instruction but here's how it works:

Instruction 1 goes through step 1 then moves to step 2, while instruction 1 is at step 2, instruction 2 can move to step 1 and so on and on. Instruction one moves to step 3, ins 2 to step 2 and then a new instruction to step one. In a processor with 20 steps, by the time the first instruction is done, it's already working on the 20th instruction.

This is my understanding, of course it's a lot more complicated than that, but you get the idea.

LfGrdMike · Oct 1, 2003, 05:47 PM

I sort of get what your saying but that is nothing like what I read in the article. Im going to find it and quote teh example they had. I hope I still got it.

bonk · Oct 1, 2003, 05:52 PM

Here's a good link I just found:
http://cse.stanford.edu/class/sophom...sc/pipelining/

Now, I have seen on Apple's website where they advertise the G4's pipeline as a good thing, which I can't believe they would do that, the more steps the better.

Podolsky · Oct 1, 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by bonk:
I won't flame you, I'll politely correct you

A longer pipeline is better. Yes it takes more steps to complete an instruction but here's how it works:

Instruction 1 goes through step 1 then moves to step 2, while instruction 1 is at step 2, instruction 2 can move to step 1 and so on and on. Instruction one moves to step 3, ins 2 to step 2 and then a new instruction to step one. In a processor with 20 steps, by the time the first instruction is done, it's already working on the 20th instruction.

This is my understanding, of course it's a lot more complicated than that, but you get the idea.

I liked the pizza metaphor a bit more but thank you.

bonk · Oct 1, 2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Podolsky:
I liked the pizza metaphor a bit more but thank you.

The link I just posted has the laundry metaphor, but pizza tastes better.

LfGrdMike · Oct 1, 2003, 06:06 PM

Thanks man all have to take a look at that later tonight. Get my facts straight.

Podolsky · Oct 1, 2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by bonk:
The link I just posted has the laundry metaphor, but pizza tastes better.

I could say something about getting pizza on my shirt and having to do laundry.....but, I won't......or just did?

Both metaphores work for me........

bobette · Oct 1, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by DUDE 007:
I have heard from different people that the GHZ ratings for Mac are different than the PC ratings...is this true?
They say that the G4 1.33GHZ powerbook is comparable to a Pentium 4 2.6 GHZ....is this also true?
I am just about to purchase a new PB 17 and will be using it mainly for audio production running Logic Platinum 6. I am hoping that the PB G4 17" is sufficient enough to do what I want. So far based on what i've researched everyone seems to agree that the PB G4 17" is a powerhouse and will do just fine and more.
Can anyone help?

I ordered the 15" 1,25GHz and will be using it for everything from audio to video editing, to large format photoshop and Flash authoring.

I currently own a Tibook 550 and Logic 5 works wonders on it. Very slick at a moderate processor speed, I can imagine how Logic 6'll be on an Al17, yesss...

I also use Reaktor 4 which is a processor hog, but yet it works good (not fine) on my Tibook. Again I'm sure that on my future Albook it'll be a blast, no sweat baby.

But I definitely recommend for audio.

Although I'd rather have, for the same $$$, a 15" and an external monitor than just a few hundred pixels more monitor acreage and a slightly faster processor with a 17". But that's the graphics dude talkin' not the audio dude.

Portability is also a factor, the 17" is one big laptop, especially when I carry my powerbook with 2 digital SLRs, lenses, tripods and all the rest. But hey, that's just my 2 yens.

herbsman · Oct 1, 2003, 07:11 PM

iphoto is very quick now. importing a bunch of images doesn't take nearly as long as before

Daniel Bayer · Oct 2, 2003, 01:23 PM

Hey Herbsman,

Wher'd that cool signtaure go?

....Cough, Cough....

scott brown · Oct 2, 2003, 02:02 PM

long pipelines have disadvantages though, notably when dealing with unpredictable branching. in this case, the whole pipeline needs to be flushed and refilled. the longer the pipeline, the more instructions that were travelling on the pipeline will be lost and the longer it'll take to be refilled again

omegahack · Oct 2, 2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by dennis88:
I just got my brand new 15" 1,25ghz, and it's awesome!
It feels soo fast, and I have just innstalled extra ram, so now I have 1024mb ram.

I got 109,19 xbench score and 152 cpu score last time I ran xbench.

I'm just so happy, this thing is just perfect!
I love it!

I ran that score with the stock 512mb ram... what brand ram is it? is it the apple kind?

Podolsky · Oct 3, 2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by scott brown:
long pipelines have disadvantages though, notably when dealing with unpredictable branching. in this case, the whole pipeline needs to be flushed and refilled. the longer the pipeline, the more instructions that were travelling on the pipeline will be lost and the longer it'll take to be refilled again

To be fair, you have to explain this in the context of pizza or laundry.........

dennis88 · Oct 3, 2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by omegahack:
I ran that score with the stock 512mb ram... what brand ram is it? is it the apple kind?

I have crucial.

Crayon · Oct 3, 2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by bonk:
I won't flame you, I'll politely correct you

A longer pipeline is better. Yes it takes more steps to complete an instruction but here's how it works:

Instruction 1 goes through step 1 then moves to step 2, while instruction 1 is at step 2, instruction 2 can move to step 1 and so on and on. Instruction one moves to step 3, ins 2 to step 2 and then a new instruction to step one. In a processor with 20 steps, by the time the first instruction is done, it's already working on the 20th instruction.

This is my understanding, of course it's a lot more complicated than that, but you get the idea.

Up to a point, more stages can help somewhat. Beyond that it causes performance losses. This is due to inter instruction depenancies and branchs. For example, if one instruction performs an add and the next instruction requires the result of the previous instruction a pipeline bubble will result. Certain types of bubbles, branches, result in a 20 stage delay. Obviously this kills performance.

It's widely known that the P4 has too many stages and performance suffers because of this. Intel did this to bump their clock speeds for marketing reasons hoping the average user didn't notice it.

The G4's pipeline makes a good compromise between clock speed and performance.

Podolsky · Oct 3, 2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Crayon:
Up to a point, more stages can help somewhat. Beyond that it causes performance losses. This is due to inter instruction depenancies and branchs. For example, if one instruction performs an add and the next instruction requires the result of the previous instruction a pipeline bubble will result. Certain types of bubbles, branches, result in a 20 stage delay. Obviously this kills performance.

It's widely known that the P4 has too many stages and performance suffers because of this. Intel did this to bump their clock speeds for marketing reasons hoping the average user didn't notice it.

The G4's pipeline makes a good compromise between clock speed and performance.

Pizza, laundry, now bubbles.......AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH

bonk · Oct 3, 2003, 03:34 PM

Very good point.

In connection to pizza, it's as if in order to cook the second pizza, you need info from the first pizza, so you have to wait until the first pizza is done before cooking the second. In this case a shorter pipeline would be better.

Daniel Bayer · Oct 3, 2003, 03:44 PM

Hey Bonk or somone with a 17, 1.33 with the 5400 RPM drive, Could you do a test for me??

I just want to see how the 5400 is compared to the 7200 in terms of opening and saving files.

If you have photoshop 7.0, open a 60MB tiff file and see how it does time wise. use the timing setting down near the lower left corner of the file to view it. It will usually read the file or scratch disk size, you can scroll to timing and get a reading.

I am getting around 2.1 seconds at the fastest on a 60.2 mb tiff file by double clicking on it in an open window.

My old 60GB 4200 toshiba in my ti 1ghz used to open it in around 5.8-6.1 seconds., quite an improvment over that time.

I am finding this to be extremely helpfull when I do automated work like do a batch conversion of 200 CMYK files to RGB and save in place using a photoshop 7 droplet.

Thanks,

Dan

pjmurphy · Oct 3, 2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by dennis88:
I just got my brand new 15" 1,25ghz, and it's awesome!
It feels soo fast, and I have just innstalled extra ram, so now I have 1024mb ram.

I got 109,19 xbench score and 152 cpu score last time I ran xbench.

I'm just so happy, this thing is just perfect!
I love it!

I am debating if going from 512 to 1024 would be noticeable - what was your experince with that?

My tasks include: 3D gaming, spreadhseets, iphoto, web sufing, itunes