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The Pirate Bay sold for $7.8 Million
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moep
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Jun 30, 2009, 05:55 AM
 
Links:

http://mashable.com/2009/06/30/break...r-7-8-million/
http://thepiratebay.org/blog/164
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/30/p...-legit-like-n/

[…]what will happen to The Pirate Bay now that it has a new owner? The founders claim “nothing,” but I remain skeptical.

“If the new owners will screw around with the site, nobody will keep using it. That’s the biggest insurance one can have that the site will be run in the way that we all want to. And – you can now not only share files but shares with people. Everybody can indeed be the owner of The Pirate Bay now. That’s awesome and will take the heat of us.“

Compare this to the statement from Global Gaming Factory CEO Hans Pandeya:

“The Pirate Bay is a site that is among the top 100 most visited Internet sites in the world. However, in order to live on, The Pirate Bay requires a new business model, which satisfies the requirements and needs of all parties, content providers, broadband operators, end users, and the judiciary. Content creators and providers need to control their content and get paid for it. File sharers’ need faster downloads and better quality”
The end of an era — RIP TPB as we know it.
( Last edited by moep; Jun 30, 2009 at 06:12 AM. )
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Phileas
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Jun 30, 2009, 07:01 AM
 
Interesting.

There are a lot of people out there right now, trying to figure out how to make money out of music, movies, games and software. For music, one of the working models seems to be shared experiences. Which in essence means, give the music away, make your money out of shared experiences like live performances.
     
Doofy
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Jun 30, 2009, 07:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
For music, one of the working models seems to be shared experiences. Which in essence means, give the music away, make your money out of shared experiences like live performances.
I wonder how many of your clients would like to start giving their books away and only make money off live readings?
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Phileas
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Jun 30, 2009, 07:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I wonder how many of your clients would like to start giving their books away and only make money off live readings?
Fair point, but different business model altogether, for now. If and when e-books take over from printed books, which is only a matter of time in my opinion, that will indeed be a question that will need answering.

There are many bands out there, trying many different things. The shared experiences experiment is one of many and one of the few that seems to show some early promise. More promise than the fighting piracy model did.
     
Doofy
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Jun 30, 2009, 07:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
There are many bands out there, trying many different things.
All of them failing. For example, Trent has recently gone bump again and can't afford to pay his musicians, hence the shelving of NIN for the foreseeable future.

Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The shared experiences experiment is one of many and one of the few that seems to show some early promise. More promise than the fighting piracy model did.
Great. I'll go with the shared experiences thing if all the punters agree that the only time they're going to listen to music is at one of these so-called "shared experiences". If they want to listen to music in their car, or at work, or whilst cooking, or cleaning, or shagging, or lounging in their garden... ...then they can damn well buy a copy of the recording.
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Phileas
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Jun 30, 2009, 08:22 AM
 
The problem is that you're, that we all are, faced with societal change. The act of creation, publishing and sharing content has become so much part of normalcy for so many people born after - say - 1985 that you might as well try and stop a tidal wave.

I understand, respect and, to a degree, share your concerns, but the business model will have to change, otherwise there will be no business.

Just as an example, my wife and I will be taking a road trip to Nova Scotia this coming Saturday. I'll be upgrading my iPhone today, mainly for the better camera and the video ability. So let's say we stay at a great little hotel, I take a quick video of the place and put it on my YouTube channel, together with a quick review. I tag it properly, and because it's on YouTube anybody looking for travel reviews of the East Coast will see the result.

Now, that's information that you needed to pay for, by buying a travel guide. Now, because publishing has become so easy, it's freely available.
     
Doofy
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Jun 30, 2009, 08:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The problem is that you're, that we all are, faced with societal change. The act of creation, publishing and sharing content has become so much part of normalcy for so many people born after - say - 1985 that you might as well try and stop a tidal wave.
You say "sharing". I say "stealing". Because every copy of a song "shared" is one less Bud in my fridge. That's, at minimum, a punch in the face for the offending perp. One thousand albums is the difference between the writer's mom getting a hip replacement on the NHS or getting the job done properly privately. That's, at minimum, taking a carving knife to the offending perp and commandeering his hip.

Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
I understand, respect and, to a degree, share your concerns, but the business model will have to change, otherwise there will be no business.
I don't think the business model will change, because no business model can compete with "free".

Laws will change. Detection of file sharing will advance. Prisons will be built. And the law will always be on the content creators' side because content sold equals tax revenue, while content shared equals no tax revenue.

Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Just as an example, my wife and I will be taking a road trip to Nova Scotia this coming Saturday. I'll be upgrading my iPhone today, mainly for the better camera and the video ability. So let's say we stay at a great little hotel, I take a quick video of the place and put it on my YouTube channel, together with a quick review. I tag it properly, and because it's on YouTube anybody looking for travel reviews of the East Coast will see the result.

Now, that's information that you needed to pay for, by buying a travel guide. Now, because publishing has become so easy, it's freely available.
This is different, IMO. In the creative world, it's the case that someone can write a site or GarageBand a couple of tracks together - but these will never, ever be of the same quality as the product offered by someone who does it for a living and has spent years at it. As the saying goes: Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
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Phileas
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Jun 30, 2009, 09:15 AM
 
While I understand your point of view, I disagree profoundly. Your assumption that the state, the police or whoever is tasked with stopping sharing will be successful doing so is mistaken, in my opinion. Even if there should ever be an Orwellian crackdown on filesharing there will always be a reaction against it - one recent consequence to convictions in the US is an increase in darknets which are virtually impossible to penetrate.

The problem you're facing, the problem everybody faces who creates for a living and that includes me, is that creation is quickly becoming something that's accessible to everybody. Your peanut argument only holds water to a certain level. Take my travel advice as an example. While the video might be shaky, the audio just about ok, the information is all I need. In other words, it's good enough to make me forgive the production values of the content.

Now, with movies and music the production value is part of the experience, I understand that. However, if the attitude of the individual is that creation and sharing is the normal thing to do, then you will have an extremely hard time to convince them that just the music is a product worth paying for.

I don't pretend to have all the, or any, answers but as a business we're spending considerable effort on trying to understand what the future holds, all of the above are just observations.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jun 30, 2009, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
every copy of a song "shared" is one less Bud in my fridge.
Has your music been "shared"?
     
Dakar V
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Jun 30, 2009, 10:29 AM
 
Pirate Bay going legit is the new Napster going legit.
     
zerostar
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Jun 30, 2009, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You say "sharing". I say "stealing". Because every copy of a song "shared" is one less Bud in my fridge. That's, at minimum, a punch in the face for the offending perp.
On less Bud sounds like they are doing you a favor....

So um anyway... what is your album/band I'd like to "look them up" to check it out!
     
Doofy
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Jun 30, 2009, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Has your music been "shared"?
Not my music, no. But stuff I've got points in, yes.

Originally Posted by zerostar View Post
So um anyway... what is your album/band I'd like to "look them up" to check it out!
No. This place is leisure - I don't mix business with leisure.
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Salty
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Jun 30, 2009, 10:58 AM
 
Doofy was heavily involved in Mini Pop Kids 5 the Revenge of Chrissy.
     
Doofy
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Jun 30, 2009, 11:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
Doofy was heavily involved in Mini Pop Kids 5 the Revenge of Chrissy.
I'm not even gay enough to know what that is.
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Salty
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Jun 30, 2009, 11:20 AM
 
Now now Doofy, the mini pop commercials are universally despised by people from all walks of life.
     
Doofy
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Jun 30, 2009, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
Now now Doofy, the mini pop commercials are universally despised by people from all walks of life.
I still don't know what you're on about.
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Laminar
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Jun 30, 2009, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'm not even gay enough to know what that is.
And that's saying something!
     
exca1ibur
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Jun 30, 2009, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar V View Post
Pirate Bay going legit is the next Napster going under.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 30, 2009, 02:29 PM
 
I sympathize with my friend Doofy's position. I pay for products that I use and value and do my best to stay away from what I'm not willing to pay for. Given the success of the iTunes Store, certainly a large portion of the public does the same at least to some extent. I believe that intellectual property has value and deserves protection; content creators definitely deserve to be compensated for their work.

Where I respectfully disagree is with Doofy's seemingly absolutist view that digital distribution somehow can be removed from the free market equation. Content that can be expressed and reproduced digitally will necessarily see a portion of its previous market value erode because the democratization of technology has given the world populace the tools to easily reproduce digital content. If the average person owned the technology to reproduce museum grade prints, the value of those fine works of art would be diminished in a similar fashion.

And I have to say I don't think the remedy is tougher enforcement. The Internet and digital distribution is a disruptive technology, and disruptive technologies change market landscapes. The most successful market players will be those that adapt to the technology and use it to advance their market positions, like Apple has. Content creators and distributors should make an effort to reduce copyright infringement, but they should not be looking to turn their customers into criminals by spying on their downloads and targeting them with various punitive measures. They should focus on attempting to curb blatant and overt violations of their rights and then call it a day. That's what Apple does with the Hackintosh movement. Apple goes after those who are trying to directly and outwardly infringe on the company's rights, like Psystar and other would-be Mactel cloners that attempt to actively compete with Apple hardware on the end-user level. Yet Apple's clear policy is to let the Hackintosh underground alone even though technically they're enabling a similar type of infringement. Apple likely knows that many of the customers hacking their PCs to run OS X would likely not buy Macs anyway, and besides it would be too difficult (at least at this point) to go after the underground and try to shut it down completely - the opportunity cost of doing so would be too high.

If content creators price and distribute their products more effectively, fewer will turn to the digital underground. But attempts that clamp down on consumers too tightly will rally people to the cause of the file sharers and probably drive more people to reduce their legal consumption of content being sold. Excessively fining or putting in jail huge portions of the population for file sharing is a laughable concept. Perhaps eventually we'll move to a much less free, less anonymous, more restricted form of the Internet, and then Doofy's vision can come closer to reality. But that's not the Internet I want. There are costs associated with liberty - people sometimes do things that other people don't like, but that doesn't mean all offensive acts can be made unlawful. And most of us would probably agree that the benefits of liberty outweigh the costs.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 30, 2009 at 02:50 PM. )

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Big Mac
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Jul 5, 2009, 03:59 AM
 
Aw, no response!

I think one of the ways to curb illegal file sharing is to make a better effort at teaching young people that stealing is wrong, and theft of someone else's work is wrong no matter what form it may come in. Let them know that there may be consequences to the actions they commit online. It won't completely stamp out the problem, but it will reduce it to some degree.

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Phileas
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Jul 5, 2009, 07:39 AM
 
Big Mac, you're ignoring a major shift that is happening in - western - society right now, the change from consumer to creator and curator. With creation tools becoming cheaper and cheaper, and publishing your creation easier and easier, the act of creation is beginning to have less and less value.

We're experiencing creation inflation.

In such an environment it is becoming harder and harder to put a price on creation. Now, don't think that I am condoning piracy here, this is purely an observation of what is beginning to happen, not my personal approval. Doofy, correctly, says that there is a difference in quality between a professionally produced album and something two teens throw together in their bedroom. Whether or not these teens then grow up to produce something great, and whether or not they will be able to make an income out of their work, remains to be seen.

However, I do believe that the notion that musical success equals financial success might be challenged in the near future.
( Last edited by Phileas; Jul 5, 2009 at 07:47 AM. )
     
kylef
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Jul 5, 2009, 07:46 AM
 
In quantitative terms, there is a difference between piracy and stealing. In stealing - you are removing the original copy and thus reducing the overall supply of it. Whereas in pirating, it is being copy and you are increasing the overall supply of it.

A few years ago I was given a legitimate copy of Quake III Arena. I've lost the disc, the key etc. Probably threw it out long ago. Is it wrong that I just downloaded and found a key online?
( Last edited by kylef; Jul 5, 2009 at 07:53 AM. )
     
Big Mac
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Jul 5, 2009, 07:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Big Mac, you're ignoring a major shift that is happening in - western - society right now, the change from consumer to creator and curator. With creation tools becoming cheaper and cheaper, and publishing your creation easier and easier, the act of creation is beginning to have less and less value.
You're right, but that's an associated issue. Technology has made it very easy to both freely create new content and reproduce/edit/manipulate existing content. As a result there have been and will continue to be huge implications for the free market and particularly for those industries that produce digital content.

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Doofy
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Jul 5, 2009, 08:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by kylef View Post
In quantitative terms, there is a difference between piracy and stealing. In stealing - you are removing the original copy and thus reducing the overall supply of it. Whereas in pirating, it is being copy and you are increasing the overall supply of it.
And in both instances, you're still taking Bud out of my fridge. And that's a kneecapping-worthy offence.
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Wiskedjak
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Jul 5, 2009, 10:45 AM
 
Doofy, you need to re-evaluate your business model, and to stop threatening to kneecap everyone who offers a suggestion.

Selling the thing that you create is an obsolete model since the cost to reproduce that thing is almost $0. You need to figure out a way to charge for the *act* of creation. The thing you create has no value anymore; it is the *act* that has value. This transition won't be easy, and you'll rant and rave about the suggestion, but surely you can see that things are changing in a way that you can't stop and that it's better to find a way to adapt to the changes now rather than after people have stop buying your creations because someone else is giving their creations away for free (after being paid to create them)?
     
Big Mac
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Jul 5, 2009, 11:03 AM
 
Digital content doesn't have $0 value. If that were the case there would be no iTunes Store. It just doesn't have the same amount of value that it used to have when the labels had full control over pricing and distribution. Plus, now content creators can self-publish if they so choose, cutting out the cartel middle men who soaked up most of the profits formerly.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jul 5, 2009 at 11:43 AM. )

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Doofy
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Jul 5, 2009, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
and to stop threatening to kneecap everyone who offers a suggestion.
Funny. I thought I was offering to kneecap people who take Bud out of my fridge. Reading comprehension problems much?
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Chuckit
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Jul 5, 2009, 12:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Funny. I thought I was offering to kneecap people who take Bud out of my fridge. Reading comprehension problems much?
Kneecapping? You should thank them and ask only that they recommend a replacement beer that isn't terrible.
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Laminar
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Jul 5, 2009, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And in both instances, you're still taking Bud out of my fridge.
Not at all.
     
turtle777
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Jul 19, 2009, 09:01 PM
 
Well, seems like the new owners will make it a subscription site.

What a bunch of f***ing idiots. Do they really think they can make money off of that ?

Where do retarded monkeys like them get all that money from to purchase websites, and then destroy the working model completely ?

-t
     
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Jul 19, 2009, 09:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, seems like the new owners will make it a subscription site.

What a bunch of f***ing idiots. Do they really think they can make money off of that ?

Where do retarded monkeys like them get all that money from to purchase websites, and then destroy the working model completely ?
If this buy is industry-funded then it's tactical genius. A zillion little trackers created by a zillion little geeks all after the next $7.8m is far less damaging than one or two large sites.
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turtle777
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Jul 19, 2009, 09:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
If this buy is industry-funded then it's tactical genius. A zillion little trackers created by a zillion little geeks all after the next $7.8m is far less damaging than one or two large sites.
I have to agree.

But it will be a short-lived victory.

How long do you think for some other tracker to take PB's place ?
Weeks ? Maybe a couple of months.

-t
     
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Jul 19, 2009, 11:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I have to agree.

But it will be a short-lived victory.

How long do you think for some other tracker to take PB's place ?
Weeks ? Maybe a couple of months.
Longer than that, I imagine. There will be many trackers that pop up to take its place and I don't think any of them will become the one-stop shop for a while.
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moep  (op)
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Jul 20, 2009, 05:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I have to agree.

But it will be a short-lived victory.

How long do you think for some other tracker to take PB's place ?
Weeks ? Maybe a couple of months.

-t
It actually already happened with http://openbittorrent.com/ which will continue to track every single TPB torrent in existence. The php script linked on that page also has plenty of hints in it.

$ dig openbittorrent.com|grep '^openbittorrent'
openbittorrent.com. 2453 IN A 212.63.222.20

$ dig -x 212.63.222.20 |grep '^20.222.63.212'
20.222.63.212.in-addr.arpa. 86259 IN PTR tfr.org.

$ whois tfr.org |grep '^Registrant'
Registrant ID-9512183
Registrant Name:Fredrik Neij
-- snip --

wikipedia: Fredrik Neij (born April 27, 1978), a.k.a. TiAMO, is a co-founder of The Pirate Bay, a BitTorrent index site and tracker. He also owns the web host PRQ, which previously hosted The Pirate Bay.
( Last edited by moep; Jul 20, 2009 at 05:30 AM. )
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turtle777
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Jul 20, 2009, 12:23 PM
 


Seems like "tactical genius" of the MI just burned $7.8m.

-t
     
Chuckit
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Jul 20, 2009, 01:45 PM
 
Is anybody actually using OpenBitTorrent? I wasn't aware that it had anywhere near the popularity that The Pirate Bay (or even Demonoid) has.
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moep  (op)
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Jul 20, 2009, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Is anybody actually using OpenBitTorrent? I wasn't aware that it had anywhere near the popularity that The Pirate Bay (or even Demonoid) has.
Everyone that is currently using TPB is using OpenBittorrent already. The OBT tracker is a mirror of the current TPB tracker that will stay up after the original TPB tracker shuts down (which will happen in August).

Indexing sites such as mininova, isohunt, btjunkie and so on will just have to replace the tracker addresses in the torrents and “business” will resume as usual.
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turtle777
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Jul 20, 2009, 02:38 PM
 
So, basically, it's like charging people for google.com, when they can get the same catalog at the-next-google.com.

-t
     
moep  (op)
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Jul 20, 2009, 02:51 PM
 
Well, I don’t even know how GGF's business model is supposed to work.
Users pay a subscription fee and keep sharing stuff while GGF uses that subscription fee to compensate copyright holders? And the whole thing is legal in the end? What about all the small apps or indie content that is shared then?
I personally expected them to completely wipe all content off TPB and start out fresh with yet another video/music store that happens to use the BT protocol.

As for OBT, I just saw that torrentfreak has an article on it.
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