[lpkmckenna]

Israel sees Gaza rocket fire 'as part of Iran threat'.

I think this proves that nothing Netanyahu says about Iran can be taken seriously.

Phase 1. Order bombing of Gaza.
Phase 2. Suffer retaliatory rocket attack from Gaza.
Phase 3. Blame rocket attack on Iran.

Remember that, Americans, while this crank drags your country into yet another pointless war.

[turtle777]

Did you slip on a banana as a child ? You probably blamed the Jews.

-t

[Big Mac]

lpk, I heard this is an accurate portrait of you:

Or do you look more like this?
PM Netanyahu said that Hamas and Iran are two sides of the same coin. They are both openly pledged to Israel's destruction. Hamas is now raining rockets not just on Israeli border cities as before but much deeper into the country-the left-wing heartland of Israel, Tel Aviv. Iran aspires to do the same with nuclear weapons. Please explain to me your thought process (such as it is) as to how Netanyahu is so off base here. Also, please enlighten us as to which other war(s) you believe Netanyahu (or Israel more generally) has dragged anyone else into. I can't think of a single one. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? You could argue that, but Iraq was very much an American-led war. I don't think you can offer a single compelling piece of evidence that Israel led America to war with Iraq. It really seems like this is your Mel Gibson moment.

[besson3c]

Somebody says something critical of Israel's leader and he is called a nazi by the second response, somebody says something implying racism against black people, he is told that they are imagining this?

[Big Mac]

If the shoe fits, besson. Those who use Nazi propaganda should embrace the label. Some Jew-haters do just that while others are more timid about it. As for racism against black people being called imaginary, I have no idea what you're referring to. I guess I missed that thread.

[Athens]

I really don't see how the Rockets are tied to Iran in any way other then a supplier buyer relationship. And on that note Iran isn't doing anything different from the old USSR and the US which both supplied military equipment to war'ing factions respective to each other for decades. Netanyahu has zero respect from me when it comes to intelligence, the day he traded solders for prisoners was the day I thought he should have been removed from office. The Canadian Harper government is buying all the rhetoric hook line and sinker and has become a bigger supporter of Israel then even Obama's government. I am not 100% sure how I feel about that kind of relationship. I am more on the US governments current stance of caution and diplomacy then Israels perceived intent on a preemptive strike on Iran's Nuclear program.

I just can't see Iran ever using Nuclear weapons on any one because it would mean the absolute annihilation of the country if it did. I think the biggest fear of Iran having Nuclear weapons is the inability to use force on Iran because they could retaliate with Nuclear weapons. If anything Iran having Nuclear weapons would undermine the ability to control the country with any threat of force. This is all political posturing on all sides.

The real fear is in the future and the what if. What if in 1, or 2 or even 5 decades from now some new radical religious group gains full power of Iran who would die for religious ideology and take every one with them. I mean really radical. Such a group in control of Nuclear weapons would be devastating because they would use them for ideology including nuking Israel. The current Iran in my opinion is not radical enough to sacrifice anything. But preemptive attacks on Iran could be the creation of such a radical groups that could lead to my what if scenario above. So I absolutely support diplomatic methods above all else.

So blaming Iran over everything that occurs in Israel is not really helpful, some of it true, some of it not.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

If the shoe fits, besson.

It doesn't.

Those who use Nazi propaganda should embrace the label.

No one is doing that.

I really didn't expect to be labelled an anti-semite because I think Netanyahu is a warmongering crank. Apparently, attacking the sainted Leader is the same as attacking the entire race of Jews. Who knew?

I've lost all respect for you Big Mac. Well, I lost most of my respect for you long ago when you advocated racist politics like completely driving the Palestinians from every corner of the Holy Land and destroying their holy places like the Dome of the Rock. But you've reached the utter low we all know you were prone to embrace.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

PM Netanyahu said that Hamas and Iran are two sides of the same coin. They are both openly pledged to Israel's destruction. Hamas is now raining rockets not just on Israeli border cities as before but much deeper into the country-the left-wing heartland of Israel, Tel Aviv.

Hamas isn't the source of the rockets, it's Islamic Jihad. Hamas isn't even mentioned in the news report.

Iran aspires to do the same with nuclear weapons.

Iran wants nukes for the same reason Pakistan, India, Israel, and North Korea wanted them: to deter attacks from other nations. The day Iran launches nukes is the day they are wiped off the map in retaliation. Iran knows this. Besides, Iran claims to be concerned about the Palestinians; why would they destroy the land that the Palestinians want to live on?

EDIT:

Iran has good reason to be paranoid: they are surrounded by American bases, they are surround by Sunni nations that hate them, their scientists are being killed by terrorists from Israel, their research centres are being hacked by Israel.

I don't know why you can't get it thru your skull: the Iran gov't preaches against Israel for reasons of demagoguery. They don't actually give a sh!t. The few token pennies they give to Lebanese and Palestinian groups is a scam on their own people.

No one in the world wants Iran to get nukes. They are crazy people. But a war against Iran is a worse outcome than anything else.

Please explain to me your thought process (such as it is) as to how Netanyahu is so off base here.

The rocket attacks are the response to the air strike by Israel. Iran has nothing to do with it.

Also, please enlighten us as to which other war(s) you believe Netanyahu (or Israel more generally) has dragged anyone else into.

I never said any such thing. You're illiterate.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Iran wants nukes for the same reason Pakistan, India, Israel, and North Korea wanted them: to deter attacks from other nations.

Who is attacking Iran? When was the last time Iran was actually attacked by anyone or anything? If Iran has cause for paranoia, what about Israel; the size of New Jersey, flanked round and infiltrated by hostile elements operating not under the sane notion of mutually assured destruction, but of a desire for martyrdom? Yes, Iran wants nukes for energy, political posturing, and for possible sale to other rogue elements. Would they use it? I'm not 100%. At the surface they certainly don't appear sane enough to play global politics, but I'm not convinced they're quite this suicidal. Still, if someone were busily loading a gun claiming he is going to kill me and my family, I'm guessing I may not let him finish loading.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Yes, Iran wants nukes for energy, political posturing, and for possible sale to other rogue elements. Would they use it? I'm not 100%. At the surface they certainly don't appear sane enough to play global politics, but I'm not convinced they're quite this suicidal.

I have less concerns about Iran's nukes than I have about Pakistan's nukes. The Pakistani government is weakening and some elements of government are aligned with the Taliban. Iran is »stable« and their fanatics are less fanatic than the Taliban. I don't want to imagine what the Taliban will do with a nuke.

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Still, if someone were busily loading a gun claiming he is going to kill me and my family, I'm guessing I may not let him finish loading.

The problem is that it's not certain whether a combined US-Israli air strike can even take out Iran's nuclear program: some of the bunkers are buried deep underground, and it is not certain that they will be destroyed by even the most powerful bunker busters the US has. Furthermore, even if there is an air strike, it will only delay Iran's nuclear weapons program rather than stop it.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Who is attacking Iran? When was the last time Iran was actually attacked by anyone or anything? If Iran has cause for paranoia, what about Israel; the size of New Jersey, flanked round and infiltrated by hostile elements operating not under the sane notion of mutually assured destruction, but of a desire for martyrdom? Yes, Iran wants nukes for energy, political posturing, and for possible sale to other rogue elements. Would they use it? I'm not 100%. At the surface they certainly don't appear sane enough to play global politics, but I'm not convinced they're quite this suicidal. Still, if someone were busily loading a gun claiming he is going to kill me and my family, I'm guessing I may not let him finish loading.

Seriously dude... Iran has serious cause of worry from American and Israeli rhetoric. Examples of history, look at the second Iraq war which would never have happened if Saddam had Nuclear weapons. Last time Iran was attacked was in 1981 by Israel. Israel stole US Nuclear bombs for its protection from the Arab countries. The Arab countries want Nuclear weapons for protection from the Americans and Israel. Israel has been pushing for a attack on Iran for couple years now. Google it, hundreds of hits come up with news stories of Israel pushing for attack. So I think Iran has good cause to be paranoid.

I am not trying to defend Iran here, but from my view they do have a valid reason to want them for protection. Just like Israel has a valid reason to want them. When it comes to actually using Nuclear weapons in any kind of conflict, I have more fear between Pakistan and India then Iran and Israel.

[Waragainstsleep]

Israel stole nukes? Somehow I think that would have been bigger news. And I doubt the US would have stood for it either.

[Athens]

Sorry lazy typing, they stole the secrets from the US with other information obtained from the French on how to create them and its currently accepted by most they maintain a illegal arsenal of undeclared weapons now. Illegal in the sense of IAEA and UN standards.

As for the US standing for it, the US absolutely requires Israel support in the Middle East for its own objectives and operational requirements, and Israel can and have gotten away with a lot. Look up the USS Liberty to see how far the US bends backwards. If this had been any other nation you can bet the response would have been very different.

[Waragainstsleep]

There isn't really much need to steal secrets when it comes to building nukes. The principals could be very easily found long before we all had the internet.

The tricky part of building nukes is refining your Uranium. It takes ages. Last I looked, you react your Uranium with something and vapourise the resulting compound so it becomes a fluid (I want to say its Bromine you react it with but I'm going from memory and could be very wrong). The stuff you want is Uranium 238 which naturally makes up about 1% with the rest being Uranium 235 so you can imagine how long it takes to separate out when the only difference is the weight of 3 neutrons. Ages.

Thats how they did it first time out I think, maybe there are better ways now but it still takes a while as far as I know. It used to take a couple of years to get enough to make a bomb worth detonating.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Israel stole US Nuclear bombs for its protection from the Arab countries.

I think you are confusing the Rosenbergs, who gave nuclear secrets to the Soviets. There's no evidence that Israel stole nuclear secrets from the Americans. If they stole information from anyone, it was probably the French, who build a nuclear reactor in Israel.

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Who is attacking Iran? When was the last time Iran was actually attacked by anyone or anything? If Iran has cause for paranoia, what about Israel; the size of New Jersey, flanked round and infiltrated by hostile elements operating not under the sane notion of mutually assured destruction, but of a desire for martyrdom?

Two things:

One, Iran is more isolated in the Middle East than Israel. Israel has Turkey and Egypt as long-time allies, and they have generally good relations with Syria and Saudi Arabia. In fact, a Wikileaks cable revealed that Saudi Arabia was encouraging the United States to attack Iran.

Two, "a desire for martyrdom" is a completely false. The leaders of Iran or any other nation do not desire martyrdom for themselves. Glorifying martyrdom is a tool of manipulation by those in power over the poor and weak. There is absolutely no reason to believe Iran's leaders wish to destroy themselves for Islam or anything else.

[Athens]

The CIA believed that Israel's first bombs may have been made with highly enriched uranium stolen in the mid-1960s from the US Navy nuclear fuel plant operated by the Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation, where sloppy material accounting would have masked the theft.[51][52]

Israel’s Bomb by Victor Gilinsky | The New York Review of Books

Photo

The Insider - Israel used loyal US officials to steal nuclear secrets and sell them on black market

USA Turns Blind Eye to Israeli Espioange

THE DAILY STAR :: News :: Middle East :: Israel stole uranium from U.S., report will show

[lpkmckenna]

I'm willing to admit that I might be wrong, but I'm not impressed with the evidence in these links.

Originally Posted by Athens 

The CIA believed that Israel's first bombs may have been made with highly enriched uranium stolen in the mid-1960s from the US Navy nuclear fuel plant operated by the Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation, where sloppy material accounting would have masked the theft.[51][52]

Israel’s Bomb by Victor Gilinsky | The New York Review of Books

For instance, in this link a single person claimed than the CIA knew in 1976 that Israel stole 100 kgs of uranium from Pennsylvania and moved it to Israel (at what date is unspecified). Israel already had nuclear capability in 1968. When did this theft take place? And I'm ready to believe Israel could have stolen technical information, but hundreds of kilos of nuclear materials? Very skeptical. And his footnote says this is not "formal testimony," which makes it really his opinion without historical evidence. And he says this:

NUMEC had exceptionally close and suspicious ties to Israel. The firm’s sloppy material accounting could have masked the removal of the bomb-grade uranium. After numerous investigations and reinvestigations the facts remain unclear.

He doesn't seem to be very sure.

Photo
This link doesn't say the nuclear material was stolen from Americans, but as your first link suggests, from Belgium.

The Insider - Israel used loyal US officials to steal nuclear secrets and sell them on black market
Um, this linked info makes no sense. The title has no relationship to the content, which is about India and Pakistan obtaining nuclear weapons. And I doubt very much that Israel was selling nuclear secrets on the black market.

USA Turns Blind Eye to Israeli Espioange
I think this page is utter crap. This line: "Even before Israel was established, Jewish nuclear scientists working on the Manhattan Project were sending nuclear secrets to the fledgling Israeli nuclear weapons project" made me laugh out loud.

THE DAILY STAR :: News :: Middle East :: Israel stole uranium from U.S., report will show
A Lebanese tabloid.

What's interesting here is that Gilinsky, the guy from your first link, is much more skeptical and isn't sure the information is reliable:

Victor Gillinsky, who was a commissioner for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission from 1975 to 1984, said that evidence of a link between samples found at Dimona and nuclear material produced at Portsmouth, if reliable, would be “very significant.”

“The [Portsmouth] plant was producing very highly enriched uranium, more highly enriched than the usual stuff produced anywhere in the U.S. or other countries because they were turning it out for Navy fuel. So if you found material of that high enrichment, I believe Portsmouth was the only place in the world that would be making it,” Gillinsky told The Daily Star.

In the first link, he says the info is the CIA's conclusion, and here he's discussing info that he isn't sure is "reliable."

So did Israel steal nuclear material from US soil? Even though they already had nuclear material in Israel built by the French? When did this happen exactly?

Sorry, not buying it yet.

These Wikipedia pages discuss the possible loss of nuclear material at NUMEC:

The Apollo Affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Zalman Shapiro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So we have: maybe the material is missing, maybe not, and maybe the director gave it to Israel because he's a Zionist traitor. That doesn't sound like credible history to me.

[lpkmckenna]

This story seems to be better timelines of the alleged theft: Israeli Spy Visited A-Plant Where Uranium Vanished - Los Angeles Times

The interesting part for me is that materials went missing over a period of several years (66-68), and additional material went missing in the 70s after Shapiro stopped working there. It seems more likely to me that this plant had a systemic accounting problem.

And are we supposed to believe the same man, Rafael Eitan, the guy who captured Eichmann, was the master thief?

[Athens]

You are putting personal beliefs ahead of reason and logic. I see no point on continuing with this run of conversation. Its has never even been proven that Israel HAS nuclear weapons to begin with. It is generally accepted that they do. Just as its generally accepted that they got help from France and stole information and possibly material from the Americans. The Vela Incident is mostly accepted to have been a joint Israeli and South Africa joint test operation though its never been put to rest as fact. I'll leave it at that. Israel claims they do not want to be the first one's to introduce Nuclear Weapons in the middle east. Its possible they have created this hype around the possibility of having Nuclear weapons as a deterrence with out actually developing Nuclear weapons. I don't believe that. The country has been under extreme threat for its entire life and I think its reasonable they have Nuclear weapons for protection. I think it is also reasonable they obtained the information through legitimate and non legitimate means including material. Since we can't even say for fact they have Nuclear weapons anything on the subject is conjecture but the evidence is strong supporting they do and stole some of it. Its a moot point at the end of the day my statement they stole Nukes, corrected to say they stole information is valid to why Iran would feel the need to also create Nuclear Weapons. But I think its not Israel that Iran feels the threat from because after all like Iran, Israel would never use them knowing it would be its own destruction if it did.

Iran's nuclear ambitions would be for protection from the United States. Israel probably maintains nuclear weapons to protect itself from Arab nations. The Arab nations want Nuclear weapons to protect it from Americans. At the end of the day you end up with a Jewish state with Nukes, Muslim states with Nukes and no conflicts because of mutual destruction. The US loses its ability to influence the region if the Arab countries gain Nuclear weapons.

Now of course if Israel does NOT have Nuclear weapons, then there would be a serious problem and a grave threat to Israel. If its been a bluff for all these years and Iran does acquire Nuclear weapons it puts Israel at a great disadvantage. I still doubt they would be attacked because the US would protect them.

The more and more I look into Iran politics it seems to be less and less to do with Israel and more to do with internal politics. A lot of propaganda with no real substance. The claim made to wipe Israel off the map seems to be more political then real. The anger around the Palestinians is genuine with the people so any kind of rhetoric around Israel is to score political points.