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finboy · Sep 17, 2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:

So again and again you accuse others of being something they are NOT, you lie, you pester other users and POISON the COMMUNITY we have here.

The real problem here is that the "trolls" are on the wrong sides of the issues. Heck, when I complained about the repetitive mindless anti-war crowd in here in the spring, people got up in arms about the "right" to opinions, etc.

As with so many things, the standards appear to differ depending upon where your opinions are. Free speech is great as long as people support your cause or your opinion, I guess.

Lerkfish · Sep 17, 2003, 09:21 AM

just ignore the trolls. Attention is what they want, so don't give it to them. put them on your ignore list, and then read the rest of the thread that is relevant and useful. If someone has a history of trolling or flamebaity posts, put them on ignore and occasionaly open a random post if you must.
Reply to them only when they make a non-trolling, non-flamebait post.

Because, otherwise to keep responding to them only forces those of us using the ignore list effectively to have to read their tripe.

Since we cannot force people to not be trolls, and banning, even when utilized properly, seldom works, just be thankful this forum has an ignore feature.

Know it, use it, live it. (/ridgemont high)

boots · Sep 17, 2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
And banned he should be. There is no irony going on here - just an issue that is looong overdue to resolve.

The irony is that you seem to have chosen the "give peace a chance" thread to force the issue. It wouldn't be ironic if you had started a "Ban Zimpy" poll thread. Lord knows cash has had enough of those posted about him.

I've seen the good in Cash and I have defended him on those occasions and after 2 years of reading this forum I've seen many trolls - they are easy to spot but few as easy as Zimphire. This is not a flame fest as such because I don't regard Zimphire as a proper member of this forum. He is a pure grade A troll, racist, bigot and is only posting here to get attention => attention whore.

I like cash. He's growing up into a pretty decent person. Still rough around the edges, but I am very hopeful. It's been kind of fun watching him grow up here. I can hardly believe he's married now, but that's another thread.

If you'd like to defend Zimphire then put up some political posts that have been interesting to read - that were not pure derailment or trolling. The guy has a lot of posts and I dare you to find one in the political lounge that isn't totally worthless.

I'm not defending Zimpy so much as the general idea that ban's need to be done with much deliberation. Zimpy riles people up so much because of the volume of his posts. They all say pretty much the same thing, but it makes things difficult to wade through a thread he is participating in. I wonder if the mods can set the "time between posts" flag for individual users. Right now it is set for either 30 or 60 seconds for all users. Maybe 10 minutes for Zimpy? It would help get his post count under control.

Zimpy hasn't said things that other members haven't expressed. There are other racists, other biggots, and other fundamentalists. They are simply not as vocal, so they fly under the radar. If you set the bar with Zimpy, it needs to be a consistent bar...you would inadvertently take a lot of people out along with him.

I guess the last part (setting the bar and sticking with it) is the biggest reason I'm not in favor of kicking him. Just because I disagree with him doesn't mean he should be silenced...If he were a true troll, he'd start a bajillion incidiary threads and then run away. But he doesn't; he sticks around and participates. That's not a troll, it's just annoying.

As for "usefull posts," I don't hang around in the lounge enough anymore to give many recent examples. Most recently, though was pointing out the Dennis Miller interview. But I do remember a few rather funny responses he's had in the lounge proper. His perspective gives him an odd sense of humor. Thats all I'm saying.

Lerkfish · Sep 17, 2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by finboy:
The real problem here is that the "trolls" are on the wrong sides of the issues. Heck, when I complained about the repetitive mindless anti-war crowd in here in the spring, people got up in arms about the "right" to opinions, etc.

As with so many things, the standards appear to differ depending upon where your opinions are. Free speech is great as long as people support your cause or your opinion, I guess.

well, I have to disagree. there is a difference from someone whose intention is to disrupt or flamebait vs. someone who just has an opposing viewpoint. Even though both might be on the same side of an issue, what differs is their intent in the manner of their posting.

Further, the "free speech" defense of trolls is a very tired and inaccurate one. For one thing, free speech on a message board owned by someone else is a fallacy. You do NOT have free speech as a guarantee on someone else's board. You are posting there at their largesse, not as a guaranteed right. You CAN, of course, start your own message board, and that is where free speech comes in, although only peripherally.

Whenever someone starts using "free speech" , you can bet its to defend inappropriate behaviour that falls outside the guidelines of the user agreement.

to get back on track to my point: the problem with trolls is that if you object to their behaviour, they try to make it appear as if you are objecting to their POV, and then try to make it a free speech issue, claiming you're trying to limit their free speech or discriminate against their political point of view. Frankly, that's chickensh!t. If someone objects to a troll's behaviour, the issue should remain their behaviour, end of story. To try to bait and switch and make it sound like a content issue is a spineless act to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions and blame the offended party instead of themselves for their own actions.

having said that, though, I support the ignore feature over banning. If you ignore someone that is seeking attention only (as all trolls are) then you are addressing their behaviour. Similarly, to encourage other people who are offended by the trolls to ignore them is also addressing their behavior, and not their POV.
Their POV remains intact and unrestricted. If all they want is to make their point and express their POV, they can continue to do so even if everyone on board ignores them. HOWEVER, if they object to being ignored, then that is proof positive they are trolls, because they need the attention more than the "free speech".

voodoo · Sep 17, 2003, 09:40 AM

posted by boots:
"If he were a true troll, he'd start a bajillion incidiary threads and then run away. But he doesn't; he sticks around and participates. That's not a troll, it's just annoying."

It doesn't matter. There is no real "rules" or definitions on if you are troll or not. Zimphire posts threads like "Hitler filmaker dead" and things of that ilk and he derails any discussion that doesn't suit his POV. This he does excessively and without control.

I like your individual post delay idea. Dunno if it is doable but it wouldn't work since Zimphire seems to be able to nag the Admins so they give him everything back. He was BANNED from the political lounge and boy whas that good!! For something like 24 hours people could participate in civilized and proper discussions about things they were interested in discussing. For a day we didn't have to put up with the **** that comes from the TROLL that is Zimphire. That was a good day. Now because he whined in the admins and they granted him the privileges to post in the pol lounge again (faster than you could say "what the heck happened") he has received some out-of-this-world "untouchable" status with the admins it seems. How weird is that??

So Zimphire can nag his way back into the forum apparently. But this time it wasn't enough - he has brought friends (from the fubarforums). One of them has already been banned (mars_attacks) and at least one is still posting here flamebaits apart from Zimphire.

They are trolls - but of a different variety. The visit forums, become members and troll like there is no tomorrow until they are banned or the forum community has gone sour. I can tell you boots that the pH level of this community is dropping rapidly because of Zimphire and friends.

xi_hyperon · Sep 17, 2003, 09:42 AM

I'll reiterate what I said yesterday. Banning likely won't solve anything. Ignoring is the key. Voodoo, by carrying on a (pointless) dialogue with zimp on this topic, you are only perpetuating that which you despise - an argument with zimp. Why?

boots · Sep 17, 2003, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
They are trolls - but of a different variety. The visit forums, become members and troll like there is no tomorrow until they are banned or the forum community has gone sour. I can tell you boots that the pH level of this community is dropping rapidly because of Zimphire and friends.

The bile only tastes sour if we eat it up. Banning only makes the person a stronger acid. (Cash is a good example of that...he comes back with a vengeance, then settles down.)

Maybe a quota system would work. Few people post as much as Zimphire, so a reasonable quota would not affect most of us. But it might make certain people more selective about their posts....hmmmm. The gears are turning. I'll get back with any other ideas I might have.

version · Sep 17, 2003, 09:48 AM

I agree, I've learned that, by just watching how in a tizzy these muppets get into. Not only do they post here, but in their fububba forum, they must be terminally bored, intelectually crippled, or just complete wankers. You can just see them spending their whole day foaming at the mouth, waiting to reply here, then p-ssing off to their mutual (auto)jackoff forum to masturbate over their stupidity, how sad, and such a boring life. Just listen to Gimphire, he talks of Autokid blinding us with his rationalism, well, look at what he wrote, more like as-holeism.

Cheers everyone, and take Lerk's advice, use Ignore.

Lerkfish · Sep 17, 2003, 09:50 AM

Voodoo: please read my post above yours.

I would just add that trolls want to disrupt, but they only can if you allow them to. Its like the Voodoo wizard, unless you believe in their JuJu, they have no power over you. Similarly, if you ignore them and keep them ignored you take their power away from them.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
I never said that. I think you are here because you are a TROLL.

But that is just it, I am not. Just because you have projected that to me, doesn't mean I am. Now going from thread to thread making "troll: comments however is very trollish. This is also a personal attack. This doesn't belong in this thread.

you are nothing important - just a nuisance.

Keep telling yourself that.

other than that you are a whiney little brat that has groaned and sobbed and nagged the admins here to believe that YOU are a VICTIM of some sorts -

LOL talk about the pot kettle thing. Who is whining in here the most?

when you REPEATEDLY admit that you never get mad at other posters. I don't know why you get such a big chance with the admins (cuz I'd never listen to a crybaby like you - I'd have kicked you without hesitation - victim my ass)

Admins have asked me to report personal attacks. Ask them. Don't like it? Stop posting personal attacks like this.

So again and again you accuse others of being something they are NOT, you lie, you pester other users and POISON the COMMUNITY we have here.

The VERY SAME THING that has been done to me. BY THE VERY SAME people that want me banned. Neat huh?

How the HECK can you be a victim when you certify that you are never affected, has thick skin blah blah. Since that was your defence before I'd say you've pretty much forfeited it. I've seen you say pretty nasty things Zimphire - both here and in that fubarforum of yours. You are no victim, you are a troll and you are messing up the community here. You deserved to be kicked a long long time ago.

Not a victim. Just following orders.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:

So again and again you accuse others of being something they are NOT, you lie, you pester other users and POISON the COMMUNITY we have here.

Originally posted by voodoo:
I don't regard Zimphire as a proper member of this forum. He is a pure grade A troll, racist, bigot and is only posting here to get attention => attention whore.

LOL! how about that pot and kettle comparison. While I admitted to being a bigot (most of you are too, if you don't accept my views) I am not a racist. No matter how many times you call me that. I tried to prove a point in that whole "nazi sympathizer" post. But It seems no one got it. Not too surprised. Don't like being called a nazi sympathizer when you aren't right? I don't like being called a racist when I am not. So you are indeed doing the EXACT same thing. But you guys started it first. (Not that that matters in the big picture) I was just showing you how SILLY it was to do that.

If you'd like to defend Zimphire then put up some political posts that have been interesting to read - that were not pure derailment or trolling. The guy has a lot of posts and I dare you to find one in the political lounge that isn't totally worthless.

That is highly subjective.

eklipse · Sep 17, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by eklipse:
Okay. I'll wait.

Search seems to be working now Zimph.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 17, 2003, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by eklipse:
Search seems to be working now Zimph.

That is highly subjective.

Stop projecting: just because your brain is working, doesn't mean that MacNN is back up.

-s*

eklipse · Sep 17, 2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
That is highly subjective.

Stop projecting: just because your brain is working, doesn't mean that MacNN is back up.

-s*

voodoo · Sep 17, 2003, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
I'll reiterate what I said yesterday. Banning likely won't solve anything. Ignoring is the key. Voodoo, by carrying on a (pointless) dialogue with zimp on this topic, you are only perpetuating that which you despise - an argument with zimp. Why?

I am having dialogue with Zimphire? I don't think so. Not now not ever. I for one am permanently ignoring him (didn't I make myself clear xi??)

There is no malice or bile felt on my side - I just see what has to be done. There are those who find it adequate to ignore Zim: good on ya! I do it myself. Maybe this is something you think is pointless but in my part of the world you take action to do what has to be done. See if nothing else this thread and my posts in it show that by my silence to Zimphire's posts I do not condone of their content, rather I am ignoring them because anything else in life is more important than to read the drivel posted by Zimphire.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by eklipse:
Search seems to be working now Zimph.

You are right. No one has came out and called him a "troll" out right. It probably has something to do with him being a mod.

But I did find these gems.

:

Vmarks, I honestly find some of your posts, and reasonings quite numbing

You're acting like a nice Jewish brainwashed boy.

I'm clear on how you think and I've met people like you. They believe something and no amount of evidence to the contrary will ever change their minds. Dogmatic belief.

Nice ad hominem attacks.

And voodoo I suggest if someone on a internet forum is upsetting you this much, I would take time out and look at what is really bothering you in life. It's probably not the person in the forum that is making you mad. At least I would HOPE someone wouldn't get so bent out of shape over text on their screen.

xi_hyperon · Sep 17, 2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
I am having dialogue with Zimphire? I don't think so. Not now not ever. I for one am permanently ignoring him (didn't I make myself clear xi??)

Yes, you make yourself very clear. I was simply citing the back-and-forth w/ zimp on page two of this thread as an example of my point. If such dialogue ceases, he and all his little buddies will eventually take their ball home and pout there.

eklipse · Sep 17, 2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You are right. No one has came out and called him a "troll" out right. It probably has something to do with him being a mod.

Do you really think it is due to the fact that he is a mod?

Are you sure it's not because his posts tend to be well reasoned, argued eloquently, backed up to a degree and decidedly lacking in venom?

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
Yes, you make yourself very clear. I was simply citing the back-and-forth w/ zimp on page two of this thread as an example of my point. If such dialogue ceases, he and all his little buddies will eventually take their ball home and pout there.

No, I will post here no matter what. Even though people claim I am doing it just for a reaction, I am not. As far as "my little buddies" I don't control when they post, or how they post, or if they post at all.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by eklipse:
\Are you sure it's not because his posts tend to be well reasoned, argued eloquently, backed up to a degree and decidedly lacking in venom?

Then why the harsh words against him? The attacks he gets for posting his opinion?

I would say calling someone a "Jewish brainwashed boy" is actually worse than calling someone a troll. So you are right. Nothing to do with being a mod. Some people will attack no matter what.

But non-the-less you are right and I am wrong. He was not called a Troll. I even changed my sig because it was dishonest.

voodoo · Sep 17, 2003, 10:59 AM

Well Zimphire is now a permanent member of my ignore list.

I suggest everybody does the same - until the time comes and he is banned from this lounge.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
Well Zimphire is now a permanent member of my ignore list.

I suggest everybody does the same - until the time comes and he is banned from this lounge.

Yes please, if you can't stand the things I say, if they make you so mad you want to start a personal attack/tirade on me like voodoo just did, PLEASE ignore me. I probably wont want to respond to your venomous posts anyhow. You will be doing me a favor as well.

Spliffdaddy · Sep 17, 2003, 11:02 AM

No thanks, voodoo.

I'll leave my ignore list empty and firewall the crap posts with my superior intellect.

eklipse · Sep 17, 2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Then why the harsh words against him? The attacks he gets for posting his opinion?

I would say calling someone a "Jewish brainwashed boy" is actually worse than calling someone a troll. So you are right. Nothing to do with being a mod. Some people will attack no matter what.

But non-the-less you are right and I am wrong. He was not called a Troll. I even changed my sig because it was dishonest.

Everyone trades insults once in a while - but the fact remains that no one is calling for vmarks' bannination - what does that tell you?

Here's a clue: it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by eklipse:
Everyone trades insults once in a while - but the fact remains that no one is calling for vmarks' bannination - what does that tell you?

LOL! Of course no one is. It would be futile to call for a ban on a mod. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

Here's a clue: it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

That is what the ignore button is for. Don't like what I say? Put me on ignore.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
No thanks, voodoo.

I'll leave my ignore list empty and firewall the crap posts with my superior intellect.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 17, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
Well Zimphire is now a permanent member of my ignore list.

I suggest everybody does the same - until the time comes and he is banned from this lounge.

Will you please stop talking about him now?

This thread was doing fine when it was about beating max with whiffle-bats and cheescake.

-s*

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 11:15 AM

So then I got this idea about driving a cheesecake truck, because at the end of the day I could take some of the leftover cheesecakes home, and I love cheesecake. So I went to the cheesecake company and they asked me if I could drive a truck and I said yes and they said you're hired. So the next day I got in the truck with all the cheesecakes and I drove about a block and I just had to have a cheesecake. So I pulled over and I opened the trunk and I got a cheesecake and I also took one for later, and I took one for my friend Farmboy, and I took one to bring home and by this time I had eaten one of the cheesecakes. So I tok another one. Then I figured I might as well stop at my house to drop off all the cheesecakes. So I took five cakes to eat on the way and I drive another block and a half to my house. Now it's lunchtime, so I eat ten cheesecakes and a cheesecake for dessert. I should point out that all of these cheesecakes were very delicious. Anyway, I decided that the only thing to do would be to eat all the rest of the cheesecakes and hide the truck somewhere and leave town. I miss everybody a lot, but I'm not really sorry, because they were very delicious cheesecakes.

xi_hyperon · Sep 17, 2003, 11:23 AM

eklipse · Sep 17, 2003, 11:24 AM

Did you find a Fat Barry post and replace 'donuts' with 'cheesecakes'?

Troll · Sep 17, 2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I would say calling someone a "Jewish brainwashed boy" is actually worse than calling someone a troll.

I seem to recall that the brainwashed jewish boy comment was made by a jewish boy! I remember being taken aback by the comment but then realised that the poster didn't mean any offence. Kind of like when black people call each other "n*gg*r."

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Troll:
I seem to recall that the brainwashed jewish boy comment was made by a jewish boy! I remember being taken aback by the comment but then realised that the poster didn't mean any offence. Kind of like when black people call each other "n*gg*r."

That is a awfully poor rationalization.

But hey, it it works for you.

I think calling anyone "brainwashed" would be offensive no matter what orientation.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 17, 2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
So then I got this idea about driving a cheesecake truck, because at the end of the day I could take some of the leftover cheesecakes home, and I love cheesecake. So I went to the cheesecake company and they asked me if I could drive a truck and I said yes and they said you're hired. So the next day I got in the truck with all the cheesecakes and I drove about a block and I just had to have a cheesecake. So I pulled over and I opened the trunk and I got a cheesecake and I also took one for later, and I took one for my friend Farmboy, and I took one to bring home and by this time I had eaten one of the cheesecakes. So I tok another one. Then I figured I might as well stop at my house to drop off all the cheesecakes. So I took five cakes to eat on the way and I drive another block and a half to my house. Now it's lunchtime, so I eat ten cheesecakes and a cheesecake for dessert. I should point out that all of these cheesecakes were very delicious. Anyway, I decided that the only thing to do would be to eat all the rest of the cheesecakes and hide the truck somewhere and leave town. I miss everybody a lot, but I'm not really sorry, because they were very delicious cheesecakes.

Okay, I'll make a single exception.

A BIG

for the King Missile reference.

"Jesus was way cool. No wonder there's so many Christians."

-s*

lil'babykitten · Sep 17, 2003, 11:43 AM

Stop saying cheesecakes!!!

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Stop saying cheesecakes!!!

CHEESECAKE SMACKDOWN

lil'babykitten · Sep 17, 2003, 11:57 AM

Ahhhhhhhhhhh

boots · Sep 17, 2003, 11:58 AM

Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake Cheesecake

Spliffdaddy · 12:11 PM

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boots · Sep 17, 2003, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Don't like what I say? Put me on ignore.

Zimphire, I've said it before and I'll say it again. To me (and to a lot of others) it isn't what you are saying...it's the way you say it.

I say this not out of spite or some vendetta, but with courtesy and respect:

1) When you make a point, make the point. There is rarely need to dissect a post line by line. Also, once made, there is no use in restating the same opinion/fact over and over. If someone doesn't get it, it isn't your problem. It's an old evangelism trick: Your job is to get the word out, not convict people of the truth. Conviction is the spirit's job. Say your peace and have faith.

2) the same thing we say about ignore lists can apply to you...if someone is just too thick skulled (by your way of thinking) to get your point....drop it and move on. There is little that is more annoying on these boards than watching two people argue in a "yes it is - no it isn't" format. Monte Python might have made it funny, but Eric Idle isn't on the board. It often seems that when you get into an argument, you and the person arguing with you fall into the same pattern of arguments...which devolves into personal attacks...which just plain sucks for the rest of us.

As a matter of courtesy (a la Mr. Axelson), if people start with personal attacks, just walk away. Surely you are secure enough in your opinions that you can walk away from an obvious flamefest. As a matter of courtesy, help us out. We are a community, and we all suffer when people lack in simple courtesies.

It isn't about any opinion you hold...it's about the way you express them that gets tiring and frustrating.

The more I get to know Spliffdaddy, the more I think he abides by this courtesy...in a sometimes non-obvious way. He gets his dig in and then gets out (most of the time). You could do worse than to look at his example.

Think about it. No response need be made.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by boots:

1) When you make a point, make the point. There is rarely need to dissect a post line by line.

That is the normal way to respond to such posts. Sorry, I feel that complaining about such a thing is being petty.

Also, once made, there is no use in restating the same opinion/fact over and over. If someone doesn't get it, it isn't your problem. It's an old evangelism trick: Your job is to get the word out, not convict people of the truth. Conviction is the spirit's job. Say your peace and have faith.

I am usually not trying to convince people. I feel if someone responds to my posts, I am obligated to respond.

2) the same thing we say about ignore lists can apply to you...if someone is just too thick skulled (by your way of thinking) to get your point....drop it and move on. There is little that is more annoying on these boards than watching two people argue in a "yes it is - no it isn't" format. Monte Python might have made it funny, but Eric Idle isn't on the board. It often seems that when you get into an argument, you and the person arguing with you fall into the same pattern of arguments...which devolves into personal attacks...which just plain sucks for the rest of us.

Of course it takes two to tango. Saying I should just drop something, esp when people follow me around asking me when I am going to respond to them doesn't help either. Again I feel obliged to reply. Again, there is the ignore button.

Spliffdaddy · Sep 17, 2003, 12:20 PM

I click the 'reply' button about ten times as often as I click the 'submit reply' button.

You guys are lucky...in that you're only seeing 10% of my drivel.

Demonhood · Sep 17, 2003, 12:30 PM

sure seems like a civil war.

which is a shame.

a crying damn shame.