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Questions that you always wanted to ask but were afraid to ask (Page 17)
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andi*pandi
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Sep 29, 2022, 01:41 PM
 
The example of girls emulating ho-bag moms is way off. Girls do not want to dress anything like moms. Ew.

We had an event where older girls were being asked to be in an official flag ceremony, wearing as close to full uniform as possible. (white shirt, vest, khaki or neutral nonripped pants). Important grownups would be there so it wasn't just the usual moms/kids hanging out.

Well we didn't specify the shirts couldn't be belly shirts. So they wore nice white polos and tshirts, with collars, but showed midriff. To their minds they looked fine. Those running the event pinned their vests closed to solve the "problem", but later we had a discussion. When we pointed out that midriffs weren't professional (ie, us leaders and parents couldn't get away with wearing belly shirts to work), they googled and found lots of Indian businesswomen wearing saris that showed belly. So... they got us there. Why isn't it ok? Who decides? There are women right now in Iran being shot for not covering their hair.

What is so scandalous about a belly? These are kids who are completely correctly indignant about school dress codes that limit what girls wear but not boys, sometimes even to the point that it is impossible to buy shorts/tank tops that fit the requirements because they do not exist in current stores. (Go shopping for girls shorts, I dare you). The reasoning that scantily clad girls are distracting to boys is BS and gives boys education more importance than girls comfort. 100 years ago an ankle was shocking. Oooooh.

Why does fashion do this to us? Who decides that short-shorts are in, and bermudas are out? That high-waist jeans are back but also belly shirts? And as long as you can do your job safely, does it matter?
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Oct 6, 2022 at 12:37 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Sep 29, 2022, 01:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Why does fashion do this to us? Who decides that short-shorts are in, and bermudas are out? That high-waist jeans are back but also belly shirts? And as long as you can do your job safely, does it matter?
I blame the homosexuals.
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 29, 2022, 03:19 PM
 
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 29, 2022, 04:55 PM
 
^^^^



Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Spheric

What you term “the talk” is not at all the same as “coming out”.

Like so…



For it to be “coming out”, it has to involve coming out.
It didn't need to. It cleared the field for the actual coming out to be just a detail of a later conversation.
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2022, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
When it comes to coming out, if you don't do it then you are lying to the people you care about and are supposed to care about you. You can't establish an honest adult relationship if you have to lie about such an integral part of yourself and your identity.
A homosexual child has homophobic parents. Here are two scenarios:

1) The child announces they’re homosexual, and no longer hides they are homosexual.

2) The child no longer hides they are homosexual.

Scenario two fulfills all the requirements. There is no lying. There is no dishonesty. There is no betrayal of self.

If the child in the first scenario then goes on to justify the announcement because not to do so would be self-betrayal, well, they’re quite simply wrong. As the second scenario demonstrates, the announcement has literally zero bearing on whether the child is betraying their true self.

Whether it’s the intent or not, the announcement is like jabbing a stick into their parent’s eyes. If that’s what the child wants to do, they should have at it. Not my place to judge that. I am in a place to judge if the reason given is being true to themselves, because this statement is false.

To be fair, the consensus opinion is not only that the announcement is relevant to all these things which it’s not, but that the announcement somehow plays a critical role in all of them. I’m sure there are plenty of people who would make false statements about why they made the announcement not out of any ill intent, but because they’re not subjecting the consensus opinion to any kind of deep analysis. To them I apologize.
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2022, 06:52 PM
 
@Laminar

It may make more sense for you to have at what I just wrote rather than have me directly respond to your last post, but I’d be glad to do that too.
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2022, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
coming out to be just a detail of a later conversation.
To me, that’s the platonic ideal, because that’s what coming out is. It’s a detail.

What matters is having a functional relationship. This is not served by making coming out to be more than a detail. Doing that actually fucks things up more.


How you described handling the situation has gotten my highest marks from the outset, and if at any point my words appeared to be criticism of it I can assure you they weren’t.
     
Laminar
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Sep 30, 2022, 08:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
A homosexual child has homophobic parents. Here are two scenarios:

1) The child announces they’re homosexual, and no longer hides they are homosexual.

2) The child no longer hides they are homosexual.

Scenario two fulfills all the requirements. There is no lying. There is no dishonesty. There is no betrayal of self.
Not true. In option 2 an announcement still happens - there is a point at which the parents realize the child is homosexual. It might be a social media post, a passing comment, or showing up to Thanksgiving with a partner.

You seem to be implying that entire existence of the "coming out" conversation is unnecessary and a result of self-delusion of the gays.

The idea of "no longer hiding" by just showing up to a family dinner with a new partner would be far more selfish, passive-aggressive, and destructive to the relationship than a purposeful, frank conversation. But every person and every relationship is different, so I'll defer to someone who's had to go through that sort of situation and be willing to listen to and trust their experience without trying to claim I know their heart and motivation better.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 30, 2022, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
A homosexual child has homophobic parents. Here are two scenarios:

1) The child announces they’re homosexual, and no longer hides they are homosexual.

2) The child no longer hides they are homosexual.

Scenario two fulfills all the requirements. There is no lying. There is no dishonesty. There is no betrayal of self.

If the child in the first scenario then goes on to justify the announcement because not to do so would be self-betrayal, well, they’re quite simply wrong. As the second scenario demonstrates, the announcement has literally zero bearing on whether the child is betraying their true self.

Whether it’s the intent or not, the announcement is like jabbing a stick into their parent’s eyes. If that’s what the child wants to do, they should have at it. Not my place to judge that. I am in a place to judge if the reason given is being true to themselves, because this statement is false.

To be fair, the consensus opinion is not only that the announcement is relevant to all these things which it’s not, but that the announcement somehow plays a critical role in all of them. I’m sure there are plenty of people who would make false statements about why they made the announcement not out of any ill intent, but because they’re not subjecting the consensus opinion to any kind of deep analysis. To them I apologize.

As Laminar has already pointed out, if you just 'act homosexual' instead of saying "I'm homosexual", then sooner or later you are going to show up with a same sex partner. If your parents already knew and it was an open secret they are still likely to be angered by you showing up with a partner because they will have expected you not to be so in their face. If they aren't bothered, then they aren't likely to have been (as) bothered by you just stating that you're gay to them.
Either way, you either come out or you live a lie.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 30, 2022, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You seem to be implying that entire existence of the "coming out" conversation is unnecessary and a result of self-delusion of the gays.
The delusion is that not having the announcement is self-betrayal.

These qualifiers I keep putting in are like kinda integral to the argument.
     
subego
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Sep 30, 2022, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
As Laminar has already pointed out, if you just 'act homosexual' instead of saying "I'm homosexual", then sooner or later you are going to show up with a same sex partner. If your parents already knew and it was an open secret they are still likely to be angered
There’s an excluded middle between “no discussion whatsoever” and “I am a homosexual”.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 30, 2022, 09:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There’s an excluded middle between “no discussion whatsoever” and “I am a homosexual”.
In order to be yourself and actually act like a homosexual, there really isn't.

It seems likely to me that homophobic parents are going to put some restrictions on their gay kids behaviours. Whether thats just when they are present/looking, and whether its explicitly stated and enforced, or just silently assumed and obeyed by the kids, any transition to 'out' gay behaviour is going to be no different whether its accompanied by an explicit statement of coming out or not.
If the parents were already tolerating out gay behaviour, how homophobic can they be?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 30, 2022, 11:08 PM
 
If a parent restricts their child’s behavior, that’s not self-betrayal.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 2, 2022, 07:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If a parent restricts their child’s behavior, that’s not self-betrayal.
You always have a choice whether you go along with it or not, albeit at a price. So sooner or later, it becomes self-betrayal. But I bet it always feels like self-betrayal and since that only matters to yourself, whats the difference?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 2, 2022, 02:47 PM
 
The announcement changes this how?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 3, 2022, 06:31 AM
 
If you think having to hide your true self from the people who should love you most in the world is perfectly fine then I don't think I'm qualified to explain it to you. Truthfully its not something I get because either I don't have to hide myself or I don't care about hiding it because I know that no-one is interested, me included. But I do have the awareness to understand that this sort of thing matters intensely to the vast majority of people.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ghporter
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Oct 3, 2022, 09:24 AM
 
Announce and change behavior: in-your-face.

Change behavior without announcing: “let’s see if they notice”.

One is assertive and even confrontational, the other is more subtle. And the motivations and reactions involved in each are, to say the least, “complex.”

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 3, 2022, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Announce and change behavior: in-your-face.

Change behavior without announcing: “let’s see if they notice”.

One is assertive and even confrontational, the other is more subtle. And the motivations and reactions involved in each are, to say the least, “complex.”
…not least because they tend to involve at least a decade and a half of preëxisting interactive structures and dynamics.
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2022, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If you think having to hide your true self from the people who should love you most in the world is perfectly fine then I don't think I'm qualified to explain it to you.
I don’t think one should hide their true self from the people who should love them most, so no explanation is needed in that regard.

What I think is the announcement plays a negligible role in being one’s true self.
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2022, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
…not least because they tend to involve at least a decade and a half of preëxisting interactive structures and dynamics.
Perhaps I misunderstand, but I believe this was part of my original statement.

The homophobic parents either already know, or they have decided they don’t want to know.

This makes the dynamics involved in the announcement to be far more complicated than it’s made out to be. The way it’s made out to be is it’s simply a “duh” component of the process, when the reality is it’s not relevant, and will likely make things worse.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 4, 2022, 08:28 PM
 
We're talking about a situation where theres plausible deniability though right? If the parents are accustomed to seeing you kissing your significant other romantically and often, then there is indeed no point making an announcement. But if you've been hiding your SOs because you anticipate disapproval, never discussing your sexuality or any aspect or consequence of it with or around them, enabling them to keep up a pretence that you are straight, then making that announcement means you don't have to mask your identity any more. That has to be a massive relief.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 5, 2022, 02:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Perhaps I misunderstand, but I believe this was part of my original statement.

The homophobic parents either already know, or they have decided they don’t want to know.

This makes the dynamics involved in the announcement to be far more complicated than it’s made out to be. The way it’s made out to be is it’s simply a “duh” component of the process, when the reality is it’s not relevant, and will likely make things worse.
You’re assuming that parents are closely watching their kids or have any idea what’s going on in their lives. That’s optimistic and very unrealistic in many cases, for various reasons.

In my case one reason was that my parents were totally tied up in their own dynamics, and another was that I’d actually moved out five years before „the talk“.

But even with „normal“ families, teenage kids don’t report on the details of what they’re doing when they’re out and about.
     
subego
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Oct 5, 2022, 04:21 PM
 
I consider parents who are so self-involved they don’t even notice to be in the “don’t want to know category”, and if I understand correctly we both agree in most cases ignoring one’s children is likely a far bigger issue than homophobia.

Also, whatever quantity of “self-truth” is involved sharing with one’s parents in the first place, there’s less of it involved if the parents are utterly clueless and/or one’s already left the nest.
     
subego
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Oct 5, 2022, 07:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
…making that announcement means you don't have to mask your identity any more. That has to be a massive relief.
Making that announcement is a means of providing this relief.

I posit not only are there are other means, but those means are superior to the announcement, because they serve to address the (inevitable) larger scale dysfunction involved with the relationship.

As ways to begin this process go, the announcement is a singularly terrible one.



I just want to put out there again, if someone wants me to back-off all they need say is something along the lines of “because homophobia is morally revolting, should the announcement punish the homophobic parents in some way I’m fine with it”.

Great. I don’t really disagree. That shit will go nuclear. Maybe it should. Like I said, not my place to judge that.

This is distinct from the awfully convenient scenario where the person who just dropped the bomb did it because there was absolutely positively no other option.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 5, 2022, 07:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I consider parents who are so self-involved they don’t even notice to be in the “don’t want to know category”, and if I understand correctly we both agree in most cases ignoring one’s children is likely a far bigger issue than homophobia.

Also, whatever quantity of “self-truth” is involved sharing with one’s parents in the first place, there’s less of it involved if the parents are utterly clueless and/or one’s already left the nest.
I feel like this isn’t going anywhere. I still think you’re not getting what I’ve written, but I no longer really feel invested in trying to understand why you’re missing it.

I’m out.
     
subego
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Oct 5, 2022, 08:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I feel like this isn’t going anywhere. I still think you’re not getting what I’ve written, but I no longer really feel invested in trying to understand why you’re missing it.

I’m out.
That’s possible, and if so, I apologize for not doing better.

Not meant in any way as some final word, I wanted to repeat if at any point you felt or thought I was being critical of you, I most assuredly was not.

Likewise, I can’t say I’ve disagreed with anything you’ve said.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 7, 2022, 03:30 PM
 
Dammit. You make it really difficult to just storm off in annoyance with your goddamn level-headed, reasonable and downright amiable responses.

I guess it really boils down to:

"The talk" is, in my opinion/experience, primarily a means of breaking old patterns of interaction and levelling the field. Clarifying standpoints and bases for the relationship going forward.

This may need to be confrontational; it may just be a "time out" reckoning the way it was for me. In my case, it was the first actual break FROM being confrontational in many years.

My point is that whether sexual identity/orientation needs to be part of it is purely incidental to what is the actual purpose of "the talk".

It is, of course, not incidental to the people involved.

But the process during which parents tend to be confrontationally, er, confronted with coming out is one that happens in much the same way in a LOT of families, regardless of whether sexual identity is one of the issues.

I take umbrage at this statement:

Originally Posted by subego View Post
It’s akin to homosexual children coming out to their homophobic parents. They will almost always tell you coming out to their parents is about being true to themselves. That’s bullshit. It’s about sticking it in their parents’ faces as payback for being unsupportive.

The coming out isn’t for themselves, it’s for their parents.

I don’t have a problem with dressing to provoke a response, or coming out to homophobic parents. I have a problem with the delusional excuses for why.
I don't know how to make it any clearer why this offends me.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 7, 2022, 06:02 PM
 
I'm no expert but I've always seen it as a rite of passage as well. People tend to be selective about who they come out to when its comes to the folks they meet along the way, but surely everyone who comes out comes out to their parents? Sooner or later.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ghporter
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Oct 10, 2022, 12:31 PM
 
Not necessarily. A guy my wife went to school with, and her first “romantic” connection as well, came out to my wife and pretty much everybody he knew at about the same time. But not his mother.

His father pretty much figured it out but played it cool - he was a really nice man in many ways. But his mother was so fixated on this guy, her youngest, as being just as “manly” and such as his older brothers, that it was really clear to anyone who had even met her that “coming out” to her would have been…counterproductive.

Maybe she had a sense of the truth, but she was clearly not going to admit the possibility that her son wasn’t who she wanted him to be.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego
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Oct 10, 2022, 08:30 PM
 
@Spheric and War,

Sorry for the delay in my reply. Been extremely busy and want to wait until I can give replying my full attention.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 11, 2022, 06:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Not necessarily. A guy my wife went to school with, and her first “romantic” connection as well, came out to my wife and pretty much everybody he knew at about the same time. But not his mother.
I'm sure plenty of people get used to living a lie like that, in some small part. Doesn't mean you can't refuse to do it on principle, rather than because you're seeking attention.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ghporter
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Oct 21, 2022, 02:54 PM
 
I don’t think that this guy felt he was “living a lie” once he finally came out to himself. That took an awful long time, because of the culture where he grew up, and more so because of his mother’s not-too-loving attitude toward even things like males wearing hair longer than a crew cut.

And once he did come out, he was pretty much open with everyone. I’m sure that he did’t explicitly describe his sexuality to his dad, even though it was clear that his dad was cool. Plausible deniability, covering his dad in case mom went ballistic, that sort of thing. I really liked his dad.

It’s just that his mom (I met her, and I agree with the assessments I’ve heard from several people) refused to accept anything but what she wanted. So her son was a “normal” man because that’s what she decided. The woman was so set on her version of reality that she literally blamed my wife for “hurting” her son with the divorce.

Her reality was always neatly what she wanted, and facts never mattered. My wife and this guy both agreed that it was impossible to actually tell his mother anything. She’d ignore what she didn’t like, and make stuff up to suit herself.

This is a very nice man. He’s kind, creative, has a great sense of humor, and so on. He and my wife are still really dear friends. His journey to understanding his sexuality was really hard. I think he never thought of it as “living a lie” to his mother because he never felt that she actually listened to him in the first place.

Given that these events were in the late 1970s, and he grew up in a place that longed to go back to the late 1940s (including the treatment of minorities), I think the trauma of just accepting himself was more challenging than feeling he wasn’t being truthful to his mother.

Anyway, however second hand, observational and memory-based this was, at that time, just being open about his sexuality was hugely liberating for him.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
reader50
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Nov 22, 2022, 11:32 PM
 
Got an information mailer in the snailmail today, addressed to Current Resident. Seemed like the usual stuff - who to call for help. Until I read it.



Adult Services = sex work. So ... Older Adult Services = age-appropriate escorts for the elderly? How complete are the services?

I'm not sure if there's enough demand for this to be profitable.
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2022, 11:55 AM
 
From what I know, it’s basically like this…

 
     
Thorzdad
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Nov 23, 2022, 12:12 PM
 
Exactly!
     
ghporter
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Nov 23, 2022, 05:16 PM
 
Inquiring minds “gots to know.”

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
 
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