[turtle777]

Originally posted by brandon420506:
I've been hearing how longhorn is supposedly going to blow mac's out of the water and will just be so much better then OS X.

Where do you here that crap ?
Any links ?

I don't think there is a general consent that Longhorn is going to be better than OS X.

-t

[Hash]

Which brings us to the question - what is a good OS? To beat OS X, XP must be better OS. But what is precisely good OS? i would argue that OS is environment. Like air. or water. Best OS is OS you dont notice, like a good referee in a soccer/football game.

[BZ]

I agree there are a ton more developers out there for Windows, but most developers I know build for a shipping OS, not something that "might" come out in 2-3 years. There is not much money in building an app that no one can use because the OS has not shipped.

The earlier Tiger is on the loose, the more software that will be available for it.

BZ

Originally posted by HOMBRESINIESTRO:
I think you underestimate how Microsoft works with their developers (DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS). Of course they have alpha releases of Longhorn now and are going to be supplied with up-to-date info on Longhorn so that they can get their software ready to use the advantages of Longhorn.

There are many more developers for Windows than there are for the Mac and many of them Win-developers are getting in touch with the new architecture right now and not when Longhorn is released!

Nevertheless, it is a good thing to have Tiger out before Longhorn. And I'm hoping for UI independence in the final version of Tiger, which is the only true advantage of Longhorn that I can see now.

[justinhale]

2 - 3 years? um, that's not what microsoft says.

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by justinhale:
2 - 3 years? um, that's not what microsoft says.

Look at the date of that article, May 2003 !!! Longhorn will not be out in 2005.

[BZ]

If I were in Vegas I would put $20 on late (Nov) 2006.

Umm... yeah..
http://news.com.com/Windows+update+w...l?tag=nefd.top

BZ

Originally posted by justinhale:
2 - 3 years? um, that's not what microsoft says.

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Browse the Internet shortcuts and E-Mail shortcuts were in Mac OS 9. But I really doubt these shortcuts really made much of a difference in usability.

You're pretty much just renaming Safari to 'browse the internet' and Mail to 'check mail'. I can understand how 'browse the internet' and 'check mail' can be useful to someone who's just crawled out of a cave...on Mars...and stumbles upon 'a computer'...luckily there is only a small number of people in North America and Europe in this situation.

I think you underestimate the Dock. Why would you need shortcuts on the Desktop when the apps are all right there...1 click away?

Yes they are there but there are no words to read. I've had dozens of people sit down to use my computer and say "how do i get online?" The name "safari" is not associated with "world wide web" quite like "IE" and "Netscape" are.

Either that or an interactive tutorial - remember how the old tutorial stuff would circle menus on the screen way back in the day?

The tutorial could come up for new users, and give "this is how to browse the web", "here's how you check your e-mail." I know this is sort of available in help, but most new people don't know to look there, and are discouraged very easily because it's not the same interface they are used to. Once they are online however it's pretty damn easy.

Oh yeah, and they don't know what the hell the red, yellow and green buttons do. I don't even really know what the green button does.

[K++]

Originally posted by mikemako:
It's the same with Longhorn. If your current PC isn't powerful enough for its high tech effects, it can scale back as much as necessary.

You MUST be looking at different minimun requirements than I was. Though to be fair when/if Longhorn is ever released they should be commodity harder. But in any case, the minimum requirements demand that your machine be an ungodly Pentium workhorse of zeal with 5GHZ, nitro burning, video cards like the ATI 9800 or NVidia 5700, and RAM in excess of a gig. WHEN it comes out that might be commodity hardware, but it sure won't scale well to any of the things that Tiger already does nor the way that Quartz scales down to my Rage 128 Pro.

[digiology2]

The way I figure it is that first of all Microsoft are embarrassed about OSX and just scared of Linux. I wouldn't underestimate Microsoft, they have lots of money and thats all they need. Its the people they pay to think up ideas and implement them that make an OS great. I'm guessing they are investing heavily in R&D for the benefit of Windows.
I figure they dont need to compete on sheer OS quality. The DRM will play a big part, if they charge developers, DVD/CD publishers to have their media protected they can grab a percentage of multiple markets. Then because of the new income, lower the price of Windows to compete with Linux.
No-one will have a choice but to move to Longhorn from XP if they want to use the latest games using Direct Next for example. Also the DRM which will encourage games developers to support only longhorn for fear of piracy.
I feel Microsoft could leave out all the fancy features and just provide developer tools for longhorn only so that everyone will need to change eventually. With proper DRM they can take over the world!

Then again, everything gets cracked eventually...

[raviruddarraju]

I was checking out some videos of longhorn

http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/p...d/default.aspx

It might have been a big wow if I was still using windows, but my standards have improved since I switched!!

- ravi

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by K++:
You MUST be looking at different minimun requirements than I was.

You've been reading nonsense that's why. Longhorn is already running with most of its final features on machines running at less than a Ghz. With 32MB cards some of the effects are disabled, with 64MB cards there are full effects and with top end cards you can use high resolutions and have lots of open windows with full effects. The features that are coming will be mostly improvements to what's already there now, plus security and database enhancements.

[powermacj7]

In my humble opinion, Longhorn will be fine, and I am sure peeps will go crazy over it. I believe the merger between UNIX foundations and Apple are the best thing going. From what I have seen of XP and Longhorn is the OS does not know enough to get out of its own way, as mentioned earlier in the post. And for some, that is acceptable, for me, it irrates me to a level of frustration that scares me
I like OSX because like all previous version of OS, it runs in the background, and I can get things done without pop-ups, and a series of beeps and whistles. Moreover, even though I am not a power using, my system never crashes, and runs well with little maintenance.
Lastly, Longhorn, appears to me a complete rip off of OSX. I believe the best App M$ makes in Office!

[ApeInTheShell]

Why isn't this in the lounge?

BTW, Bob looks like those older games where you navigated through the house or level to explore artifacts or acquire weapons. Makes a good children's game interface like the ones designed in Macromedia Director.

I think some of us see the features we would find useful in our workload. Spotlight looks like it would take and enhance a lot of features we use in Finder today. Which begs the question, will Finder be included in a future release or integrated w/ Spotlight?

Applescript is intimidating for an "end user" especially when they expect things to happen quickly and without their interaction of 5 or 6 applications or tasks. Automater will be successful and like spotlight make our Mac easier to use.

I don't know about you but I'm excited about the game releases for Mac now that it uses the GPU in Tiger and the real time graphics in Funhouse just blew me away! Gamers won't care for a headless iMac by the time Tiger comes around.

So if your still not convinced Tiger is worth your money than hooray for you but I will definetly be buying a new Mac next year

Windows XP => Longhorn will be Mac OS X 10.0 and have the same hurdles ahead to convert the older users. People still find Windows 98 useful and upgrading to XP is just more of the same to them. Reminds me of the new Palms. New features but same old Palm.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by lookmark:
Also -- haven't taken a look at Apple's "piles" patent too recently, but isn't Longhorn's use of stacks as "filters" for creating + sorting metadata somewhat unique?

Sounds a little bit like Tiger's smart folders...

[Horsepoo!!!]

Excellent Spotlight info from Daring Fireball's John Gruber.

[Apfhex]

Originally posted by leperkuhn:
Either that or an interactive tutorial - remember how the old tutorial stuff would circle menus on the screen way back in the day?

I remember. Sounds like Spotlight (er, not the search technology I guess, but like what the new System Preferences does when you perform a search, as show at WWDC) would be a perfect candidate for this kind of thing.

[Stradlater]

As far as new user usability goes, what's so hard about using the Help Center?

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
As far as new user usability goes, what's so hard about using the Help Center?

No! Aliases/Shortcuts on the Desktop!!!!



Hehe...I don't understand it either. The Help Center is there (not to mention *in* the Dock on first install) and I'm sure Spotlight will take care of the rest of what people want.

I find it laughable that shortcuts/aliases and Windows XP-style task questions is anymore helpful than opening up Help Center and typing in the question yourself.

Apple goes to extreme lengths to provide the best user interface experience without sacrificing power features and people want the babyish, hand-holding interface XP offers?

The Help Center...one click away and a few keywords away from a solution. If newbies don't want to use it, it means they really don't want to use the computer and learn about them. No amounts of hand-holding with save them.

If I wanted to look through a bunch of questions and choose one from them that suits best what I want to do, I'd be running a CLI OS. Windows XP's task-based bull**** is the equivalent of a CLI contained inside colorful FisherPrice windows with actions triggered by clicks instead of the letter 'y' and 'n'.

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
No! Aliases/Shortcuts on the Desktop!!!!



Hehe...I don't understand it either. The Help Center is there (not to mention *in* the Dock on first install) and I'm sure Spotlight will take care of the rest of what people want.

I find it laughable that shortcuts/aliases and Windows XP-style task questions is anymore helpful than opening up Help Center and typing in the question yourself.

*shrug* I guess no one else seems to understand that people who don't understand computers never look for things (like a damn help center). They are afraid to break the comp. but I'm giving up on this now.

Of course, when they buy the computer, if they buy it at an apple store, hopefully they've gotten a basic run through at the very minimum, so I guess that would solve most of the issues.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by leperkuhn:
*shrug* I guess no one else seems to understand that people who don't understand computers never look for things (like a damn help center). They are afraid to break the comp. but I'm giving up on this now.

Of course, when they buy the computer, if they buy it at an apple store, hopefully they've gotten a basic run through at the very minimum, so I guess that would solve most of the issues.

Enough people use computers that if a new user needs help, they can ask a friend. Otherwise, all they have to do is look around the screen and try the "Help" menu if that's what they need: help.

[Horsepoo!!!]

I never use Help...but I just gave it a try. Directly from the Finder...Help -> Mac Help.

Typed in "browse the web" and wouldn't you know it "Browsing the World Wide Web using Safari" came up. I clicked on that. Got a few instructions and a link "Open Safari for me".

Typed in "check my mail"...the first result wasn't the really what I was looking for but the 6th one was "Sending and receiving email with Mac OS X Mail"...inside was a convenient link to "Open Mail for me".

Then I figured...why not just type "e-mail"...and "Sending and receiving email with Mac OS X Mail" was actually the first and most relevant result.

"Chat with friends"...2nd result "Sending messages with iChat AV"...OMG, "Open iChat for me"...YES PLEASE!

What do I do now? I don't know how to start chatting with my friends. OMG, "iChat Help"...wow, I need an account? How do I get that? "Go to website".

"Listen to music"...wow, an app called 'iTunes' will let me do that. But I don't have any music and I don't know how to put that onto my computer. Oh, neat, I can put a CD in and add them to my computer, or buy songs from the iTunes Music Store.

Help Center seems pretty powerful to me. It allows the user to explore and learn instead of things being done automatically for him and never learning how to use the computer beyond the built-in limited selection of scripted tasks offered in other operating systems.

[Brass]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I can understand how 'browse the internet' and 'check mail' can be useful to someone who's just crawled out of a cave...on Mars...and stumbles upon 'a computer'...luckily there is only a small number of people in North America and Europe in this situation.

Yes, but Apple and MS both sell to Africa, Australia, South America and Asia (as well as other smaller island communities). And these are full of people who've just crawled out of a cave and have no idea about IT.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by Brass:
Yes, but Apple and MS both sell to Africa, Australia, South America and Asia (as well as other smaller island communities). And these are full of people who've just crawled out of a cave and have no idea about IT.

Maybe they should take it easy...it would be a technological shock to go from cave to computer. You can't take someone who's never seen a phone or a TV and put him in front of a computer.

"Browse the internet" and "check mail" aliases won't help them at all.

[hmurchison2001]

It remains to be seen how many of Longhorns features "actually" work come 2006/7 when it ships but I have the sneaking suspicion that Longhorn just about kills any possibility of Apple making inroads and getting on the Enterprise Desktop.

Longhorn, on paper, is neatly organized in pillars and is really a knockout technically providing that it works. The use of Digital Signatures and having a stable DRM policy for documents throughout the whole OS is very powerful.

Avalon doesn't really impress me all that much but it's a step in the right direction and afer viewing the videos from above it's obvious that Longhorn will seek to co-opt 3rd party information (the McGraw-Hill video) and encapsulate that info in ways that only Longhorn can take advantage of. MS is re-inventing the wheel here as HTML is fine for navigating from internet link to link but HTML doesn't sell OS. Avalon 3D is ok. I do think Apple should infuse Quartz with a similar 3D library and API as well because sometimes people aren't looking for Maya like graphics but just a simple 3D visual.

Longhorn is going to shut OSX out of any chance at being peer on the network. Longhorn's hooks will run so deep into MS' cadre of biz apps I see it as being vitually impenetrable. If you think the MS way today has locked people in you haven't seen nuthin' yet.

Apple may as well stop lollygaggin and get out a suite of their own and aim their tools at smallbiz where there is a lack of IT staff yet people still need functional software.

They also should make sure they are maintaining progress with the iPod and expanding that market as well as focusing on dominating multimedia content creation. MS is playing their hand, they are focused on big business so Apple would be smart to get entrenched in multimedia and make the bucks while they can.

[michaelb]

Originally posted by Brass:
Yes, but Apple and MS both sell to Africa, Australia, South America and Asia (as well as other smaller island communities). And these are full of people who've just crawled out of a cave and have no idea about IT.

What the...?

LOL. And you're from Australia?!

Oh, I see you're in Tasmania... 'Nuff said.

[Zimphire]

MS ALWAYS tries to say their next OS is going to be The Best�

It never is.

[Brass]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Maybe they should take it easy...it would be a technological shock to go from cave to computer. You can't take someone who's never seen a phone or a TV and put him in front of a computer.

"Browse the internet" and "check mail" aliases won't help them at all.

yes, their brains might explode (see "Truckers" by Terry Pratchett)

[JKT]

It seems to me that it would be ideal if, on first launch of a new computer (or newly installed OS), that you were given a choice to have Help Viewer open automatically and that way the person can then decide if (a) they need to look at anything on offer at all, such as the what's new section or (b) if they are a newbie to computing or the Mac, then the New to MacOS X/Computing section is right there staring them in the face...

IMO, task based computing just keeps people stupid and doesn't let them expand or learn...

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by JKT:
It seems to me that it would be ideal if, on first launch of a new computer (or newly installed OS), that you were given a choice to have Help Viewer open automatically and that way the person can then decide if (a) they need to look at anything on offer at all, such as the what's new section or (b) if they are a newbie to computing or the Mac, then the New to MacOS X/Computing section is right there staring them in the face...

IMO, task based computing just keeps people stupid and doesn't let them expand or learn...

Apple should just release an Mac OS X version of a tutorial they created back in 1984-1985. It taught people how to move the mouse, click, double-click, drag and drop and explained other basic things.

Explain the Dock, show where Applications are stored, explain how to use Spotlight.

Just a quick 45 minute tutorial should be enough for anyone.

Who wants to replicate that tutorial Apple created 20 years ago but in full cartoony colors and relevant to OS X?

[andreas_g4]

Please look at this.

http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...37F/CLI360.ppt

"Innovative Design"

[radii_22]

What about XAML, the next xml based language for creating windows web user interfaces, out of the web browser, in Longhorn. That would change things if it "standarises", and I guess that's the real reason why Apple has created Dashboard, which is based in Web Standards.

I don't undestimate Microsoft, Windows is in itself a "standard" given its position in the market. It can create and decreate tendencies and ways of working because of its muscle.

One of the exemples of that, for the Web Designers, is the difficult situation of Flash developping in Mac OS X.

I hope Apple can resist to those problems, maybe trying to etablish a better relationship between OS X and Linux.

--->>>

Pd : I thing spotlight worth really the update to Tiger from Panther. LaunchBar doesn't search "inside" PDF and Word documents, and it can't create "smart folders" (or groups) of things. But the real quest, is in creating a FS totally based in metadata. Spotlight is the first step I guess.

[elbles]

Just to comment on a few things, from a very recent convert (though I've used Macs before, starting with a SE, then a SE/30, and a variety of LCII and LCIII machines in elementary school where FoolProof Control Panel was too easy to hack, heh):

I've used everything under the Sun (pun intended): DOS, starting with version 3.3 to 6.22, Windows from 3.0 to XP, OS/2 2.0 and Warp 3, the Macs with System 7, Sun Solaris (on an older SPARCstation), SGI IRIX, various versions of free UNIX, Linux since the 2.0 kernel, FreeBSD since around 4.0, well, you get the idea. A lot of those have been oriented towards the server, but I've tried each and every one of them on the desktop, and NONE have been as good as OS X. I used Windows 2000 the most out of any of them on an older IBM ThinkPad (PII 266 MHz, 256 MB RAM), and it worked pretty damn well; fairly quick, stable, and I knew Windows so well I could get around a lot of applications and multitask pretty damn well, or so I thought. I got my PowerBook G4 for a high school graduation present back in June, and I almost right away could multitask many times better than I ever could in Windows (and I had been using Windows forever, knew all the keystrokes, etc); things like Expos�, CMD-tab, CMD-` made it amazingly easy for me to get things done much quicker than I ever could on Windows. Things were no better in XP for me, thus I stayed on 2000 because it just didn't require the modifications XP required to get it looking "professional", and not some goofy knock-off of OS X. I could NEVER go back to using Windows again; I never had a virus or any spyware (didn't use AV software either, just common sense, and the paranoid system administrator mentality helped too, heh), but it just plain can't compare to OS X. Microsoft has a lot of catching up to do; prior to OS X, Microsoft had done a decent job of catching up on the 10 year or so lead Apple first had when the Mac first came out, but come OS X, Apple, IMO, got that 10 year lead back. I say this as someone who really didn't like Macs all that much back in the day, just because x86 machines had more choices (OS/2 was a really great operating system that was lacking in applications), but with OS X, I'm a fan not because of some intangible quality, but because it just works, and it just works much better than Windows has ever. As long as Apple keeps it up, I'm not leaving this realm of computing again. (Also keep in mind I'm only 19 years old, so I like to think I have a lot of computing still left in me as a CS/CE/IT major :-)).

[Brass]

Originally posted by michaelb:
What the...?

LOL. And you're from Australia?!

Oh, I see you're in Tasmania... 'Nuff said.

Yes, that's right: My computers are on the "LAN Down Under".

[Big Mac]

Brandon is a particularly pathetic troll, isn't he? I was tempted to dub this the Worst Thread Ever, but since it produced elbles insightful post, the thread acquired some redeeming qualities.

[PER3]

"Task-based" computing.

At last some truth in advertising.

[teknologika]

The two biggest Longhorn features IMHO are both "developer" features: Indigo and WinFX. (No I didn't mean WinFS.)

Indigo is the new Windows communications platform and it implements the Web Services Enhancements (WSE) standards for communicating between applications with web services and replaces all the "legacy" communications protocols such as DCOM and .net Remoting. Indigo will be "back ported" to Windows XP. With Indigo you use the same API and only different transports, to talk between two applications on the same machine, or different machines.

WinFX is the replacement for the entire Win32 API, which allows all the Windows API to be accessed natively from .net managed code.

Both of these new features will make developers lives a lot easier on Windows, and MS are hoping that they will be the foundation for the next wave of Windows applications.

Also MS recently took the knife to Longhorn and cut WinFS, so the new SQL Server based file system will not be in the initial release.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by teknologika:
The two biggest Longhorn features IMHO are both "cracker" features: Indigo and WinFX. (No I didn't mean WinFS.)

Indigo is the new Windows communications platform and it implements the Web Services Enhancements (WSE) standards for communicating between applications with web services and replaces all the "legacy" communications protocols such as DCOM and .net Remoting. Indigo will be "back ported" to Windows XP. With Indigo you use the same API and only different transports, to talk between two applications on the same machine, or different machines.

WinFX is the replacement for the entire Win32 API, which allows all the Windows API to be accessed natively from .net managed code.

Both of these new features will make crackers' lives a lot easier on Windows, and MS are hoping that they will be the foundation for the next wave of paid Windows updates.

Fix0r3d.�

[Judge_Fire]

Regarding task-based UIs and accommodating new users:

I think the Windows/Explorer/Whatever app in Longhorn will probably be far superior to the Finder/Desktop/Dock (and its own previous incarnation in Win XP).

I'm afraid it ends there, though. Using any 3rd party app will still constitute a modal switch from task-based to tool-based even in Longhorn. I don't expect 3rd party developers to appreciate Microsoft-dictated UI or UE guidelines that seriously.


So in that sense there is consistency in Mac OS X, it feels tool-based all the way, though I agree with some previous posters; it is a bit cryptic for newbies. In Windows, you look at a folder full of pictures and options such as "View Slideshow", "Order Prints" and "Mail Picture" are right there. It just works. In Mac OS X, you'll need to know beforehand that iPhoto or Mail perform these functions.

Interestingly, once you learn the Mac way and come to see these as 'tools', it's IMHO easier to see them as replaceable, in other words, you can for example look for a Mail alternative. It's harder to augment the built-in magic tasks in Windows, or even suspect there could be something better out there.

/rambling

J

[Luca Rescigno]

OMG Longhorn Beta Screenshot!

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
OMG Longhorn Beta Screenshot!

Well, could be, since I fully expect the default desktop pic in Longhorn to be atleast as badly compressed as the one in XP. It's the 'Microsoft attention to detail' - magic. As if they couldn't fit a decent .jpg on the installer disk.

(take a close look at the pic on a PC near you, it's crap.)

J

[radii_22]

Ugly shot, I don't think it is true.

About task based interfaces, I guess that Apple would be moving in that direction, in his way. It's easy to build a way of creating "contextual actions" based on the type of navigation you're doing. For example, the "action" button of the Finder is doing that, in a very shy manner. The "services" menu item is also there. It's just a question of implementing more and smarter actions. I can imagine more development in terms of the Dock and the Finder sidebar, as Application filtering in the dock, and more options and types of sidebars (for example, a sidebar for new users, more orientated to tasks and help, and a sidebar for advanced users, more customizable.)

I don't really see why Apple should consider staying static in terms of this debate. They have shown intelligence in implementing metadata and a better way of searching, features that users and critics have been demanding to the OS X since 10.1 (John Siracusa debate, for example).

We have not seen all in Tiger, I guess that Apple is going to let the Tiger Finder new features hidden, as the better part of the thing. I hope so at least.

[Brass]

Originally posted by radii_22:
Ugly shot, I don't think it is true.

About task based interfaces, I guess that Apple would be moving in that direction, in his way. It's easy to build a way of creating "contextual actions" based on the type of navigation you're doing. For example, the "action" button of the Finder is doing that, in a very shy manner. The "services" menu item is also there. It's just a question of implementing more and smarter actions. I can imagine more development in terms of the Dock and the Finder sidebar, as Application filtering in the dock, and more options and types of sidebars (for example, a sidebar for new users, more orientated to tasks and help, and a sidebar for advanced users, more customizable.)

I don't really see why Apple should consider staying static in terms of this debate. They have shown intelligence in implementing metadata and a better way of searching, features that users and critics have been demanding to the OS X since 10.1 (John Siracusa debate, for example).

We have not seen all in Tiger, I guess that Apple is going to let the Tiger Finder new features hidden, as the better part of the thing. I hope so at least.

I wonder if the user of the "Preview" column (in column view) could be enhanced to include buttons/widgets for task-based actions? I still find the task-based way a bit ugly, but I can appreciate that some users may find it easier.

[Nodnarb]

Originally posted by Big Mac:
Brandon is a particularly pathetic troll, isn't he? I was tempted to dub this the Worst Thread Ever, but since it produced elbles insightful post, the thread acquired some redeeming qualities.

Fuck you man I was asking a legitimate question about longhorn what the hell is your problem?

[jamil5454]

We have to remember than Apple and Microsoft are, after all, businesses. And what's the sole purpose of a business?

To make money.

In this repsect, Microsoft are winning even if they have a crappy OS. My theory is this: spending more on marketing and less on quality(M$) will get you more money but with less satisfied customers. On the other hand, generating a quality OS that only ~3% of the market uses gives you almost %100 customer satisfaction.

To me, the second choice is more important, because Apple is focusing more on quality than making money. In that respect, UNIX (especially Linux) is also a very nice OS, once you learn how to use it.

But with OS X, you basically have two OSes in one: UNIX and Mac.
As a Linux user, It's nice to know that if something starts acting up I won't be afraid to open the Terminal and use it, which IMO is immeasurably better than the l337 Winblows� c0|\/||\/|4nd |>r0m|>7 (command prompt).

In conclusion, take everything I say with a grain of salt because I've never used a Mac! My iBook is coming...






Please excuse any typos; I'm on acid.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by jamil5454:
We have to remember than Apple and Microsoft are, after all, businesses. And what's the sole purpose of a business?

To make money.

...

Please excuse any typos; I'm on acid.

You're also on acid for thinking a business' sole purpose is to make money.

[jamil5454]

ok, ok I'll argue with you. But just this one time.

What I meant was:


"A business' first priority is to make money..."
inseated of
"A business' sole purpose is to make money..."


I just got a new pair of shoes so I subconsciously mentioned that, sorry.

[Telusman]

Apple didn't feel ashamed when it ripped it's UI off of Xerox

Originally posted by powermacj7:
Does M$ ever feel ashamed or embarrassed for obviously copying other's ideas? I agree, it appears that Apple has the upper hand in OS technology. Longhorn still has time to implement technologies by the time it comes out. In any event, Windows is not Unix, and that is my reason to stay with Apple, among several others.

[murk]

Originally posted by Telusman:
Apple didn't feel ashamed when it ripped it's UI off of Xerox

Apple brought a lot to the party. MS didn't. Plus Apple licensed Xerox's stuff.

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
You're also on acid for thinking a business' sole purpose is to make money.

According to college finance professor, it is to increase the wealth of the stockholders. That is the point of a corporation.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by leperkuhn:
According to college finance professor, it is to increase the wealth of the stockholders. That is the point of a corporation.

A while back it was cool to ridicule the concept of 'stakeholders', and to repeat the above mantra ad infinitum.

IMHO, the increasing wealth of shareholders is a sign of a company being profitable and well managed. It isn't a purpose as much as it is a _requirement_. No point running a business at a loss. Other requirements include the ability to attract a skillful workforce, with things like competitive pay, interesting challenges, good career options or a nice combination of such things.

I'm sure people like Jobs or Gates don't go to work in the morning to please the greedy masses of AAPL and MSFT shareholders. They are being motivated by personal goals, as are many people working for them. Companies like Apple, Microsoft, Google etc. seem to fulfill the above requirements.

While some people stuck with narrow-minded mantras seem to do better as professors than CEOs.

J