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Was Moses a baby killer?
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macintologist
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Apr 10, 2005, 02:32 PM
 
Credit to spl.

WARNING:
This post contains explicit description of violence which may be upsetting to some readers.


A quote from the Christian Bible (also in the Hebrew Bible):
"[The Israelites] warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. [...] And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. [...] And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? [...] Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
(Numbers 31:7-18, KJV)
In the following story, you see through the eyes of Moses. You are Moses.

It is a joyous day for you. The war against the Midianites is finished, the Lord God has blessed you, and you have been victorious. You have taken all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and taken the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods, as the Lord commanded you.

Two of your soldiers come towards you, between them there is a young Midianite woman. They grasp her shoulders and clothes tightly to prevent her from escaping. In her arms, she protectively holds her small baby. Seeing this, you tell your soldiers to hold her, and you stride towards her. As you reach for her baby, she struggles to free herself, but your soldiers hold her well.

The baby cries as you grapple with him, trying to pull him away from his mother. Suddenly, you give the mother a heavy slap across the face. In the moment when she is stunned, you pull her baby away from her. Her voice thick with emotion, she says, "Please don't take my baby! PLEASE! Please I beg you!"

Without answering her, you carry the crying baby away, but order your soldiers to bring the mother. After a short walk, you reach a rocky patch of ground that is littered with jagged beige stones of medium size. Using both hands, you raise the baby, still crying, above your head.

The mother screams frantically, "NOOOO!!! PLEASE DON'T KILL MY BABY! I beg you! I will do anything for you, anything! PLEASE!!"

You ignore her pleas. With all of your strength, you hurl the baby towards the stones. The mother covers her face with her hands, unable to look at the imminent death of her baby. There is a loud cracking sound as the baby's skull hits a rock and breaks, along with other fragile bones. However the baby does not die instantaneously. His arms and legs slowly twitch as his blood starts to seep out of his broken body and stain the rocks and the ground with bright redness. After some time, his body ceases twitching, and he is dead.

The mothers legs have collapsed, and she has fallen to the ground. Tears are streaming down her face making dirty streaks, and her body is shuddering with uncontrollable sobs.

You look at what you have done, and you feel happy. You smile at your soldiers. You feel honored to be serving the almighty God. You turn to face your people, and you say unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

You gaze with approval as a group of your men kick the legs out from underneath a Midianite girl of about 14 or 15 years of age, causing her to fall to the hard ground. She screams in terror and kicks frantically, but your men hold her arms and legs, stretching her out on the ground. One of your men pulls up her dress and examines her hymen, poking and prodding with dirty fingers splattered with dried blood from earlier activities, in an attempt to determine whether she is a virgin and thus whether she will be killed or kept alive for the pleasure of the men.

Satisfied that she is a virgin, your men then proceed to throw dice to determine who will have sex with her first. You nod, and praise and thank the Lord for all that He has given you today.
     
Joshua
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Apr 10, 2005, 03:01 PM
 
Why did you post this? What do you hope to accomplish?
Safe in the womb of an everlasting night
You find the darkness can give the brightest light.
     
JohnSmithXTREME
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Apr 10, 2005, 03:35 PM
 
With all due respect Macintologist, your threads do seem to be a bit off.
     
RAILhead
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Apr 10, 2005, 04:04 PM
 
Not that this nutjob will care, but he sure does like ellipses. Here's the FULL passage in case someone with a brain wants to read it:

31:7
They waged war against Midian, as the Lord had commanded Moses, and killed every male.

31:8
Along with the others slain by them, they killed the Midianite kings-Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.

31:9
The Israelites took the Midianite women and their children captive, and they plundered all their cattle, flocks, and property.

31:10
Then they burned all the cities where the Midianites lived, as well as all their encampments,

31:11
and took away all the spoils of war and the captives, both human and animal.

31:12
They brought the prisoners, animals, and spoils of war to Moses, Eleazar the priest, and the Israelite community at the camp on the plains of Moab by the Jordan [across from] Jericho.

31:13
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp.

31:14
But Moses became furious with the officers, the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds, who were returning from the military campaign.

31:15
"Have you let every female live?" he asked them.

31:16
"Yet they are the ones who, at Balaam's advice, incited the Israelites to unfaithfulness against the Lord in the Peor incident, so that the plague came against the Lord's community.


31:17
So now, kill all the male children and kill every woman who has had sexual relations with a man,

31:18
but keep alive for yourselves all the young females who have not had sexual relations.
That's the Holman Christian Standard translation. I boldfaced one of the key verses to the whole context of the passage, which was "astonishingly" edited out with a handy "...".

Spare us, and move along...
Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Kilbey
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Apr 10, 2005, 04:41 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Not that this nutjob will care, but he sure does like ellipses. Here's the FULL passage in case someone with a brain wants to read it:

That's the Holman Christian Standard translation. I boldfaced one of the key verses to the whole context of the passage, which was "astonishingly" edited out with a handy "...".

Spare us, and move along...
Maury
It is amazing what one can accomplish when they take it out of context isn't it? Thanks for pointing that out.

For that macintoligist, you are awarded the acclaimed MMM (Michael Moore Medal):



And here's the NIV version of that same series of verses:

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba-the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]

___ 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.

___ 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.[B]
And that story you supplied took quite the dramatic license didn't it?
     
Zimphire
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Apr 10, 2005, 04:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Kilbey:

     
macintologist  (op)
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Apr 10, 2005, 05:17 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Not that this nutjob will care, but he sure does like ellipses. Here's the FULL passage in case someone with a brain wants to read it:
Originally posted by Kilbey:
It is amazing what one can accomplish when they take it out of context isn't it? Thanks for pointing that out.

For that macintoligist, you are awarded the acclaimed MMM (Michael Moore Medal):
Originally posted by Zimphire:
LOL, this is the best the Christians can do? They think that one little line will vindicate their violent Holy Bible, which encourages the dashing of infants heads against a rock, raping virgin girls, killing babies, slavery, subjugation of women, etc. Either you fess up and admit your Bible is violent, or remain in denial for the rest of your spiritual existence.
     
RAILhead
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Apr 10, 2005, 06:24 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
LOL, this is the best the Christians can do? They think that one little line will vindicate their violent Holy Bible, which encourages the dashing of infants heads against a rock, raping virgin girls, killing babies, slavery, subjugation of women, etc. Either you fess up and admit your Bible is violent, or remain in denial for the rest of your spiritual existence.
And that's the best the Non-Christians can do?

Good freaking crap, man, if you need someone to tell that there's violence in the Bible, you need therapy.

OH NOH!!1 TEHR3 IZ VI0LENZ IN TEH BIBL3!!11! ALL TEH KRISCH33NZ R KILLARZ OF TEH BABIEZ!!11! TEHR3 IZ A VI0L3NT R3LIGIZ B00K IN TEH WURLD!!11!

Now I'm outta here to eat dinner, watch Monk Season 2, and eventually go to bed.

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
dcmacdaddy
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:17 PM
 
Dood, what is up with all the Christian-bashing? Feeling a little self-rightenous are we? Want to knock down some Christians to feel better about yourself? Grow the F*** up. Seriously!
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
SimpleLife
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Kilbey:
It is amazing what one can accomplish when they take it out of context isn't it? Thanks for pointing that out.

For that macintoligist, you are awarded the acclaimed MMM (Michael Moore Medal):



And here's the NIV version of that same series of verses:



And that story you supplied took quite the dramatic license didn't it?
That was one stupid reply that has nothing to do with the topic.

Call it misplaced, exagerated and insulting, but to put this in the realm of communism, that is just dumb. Your mixing apple with oranges.

Even rotten, they are still apples and oranges.
     
SimpleLife
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:24 PM
 
Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
Dood, what is up with all the Christian-bashing? Feeling a little self-rightenous are we? Want to knock down some Christians to feel better about yourself? Grow the F*** up. Seriously!
Agreed, up to a point.

No one knows how things happen then, although I doubt it was that dramatic.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:50 PM
 
Originally posted by SimpleLife:
Agreed, up to a point.

No one knows how things happen then, although I doubt it was that dramatic.
Actually, it probably was that dramatic if you are referring to the whole bashing in of heads of young babies. Human culture has a tremendous propensity for violence. Hell, how often nowadays do you hear a story of some baby being left in a dumpster or a public toilet? same practice, different method.

Having said that, Macintologist is not looking to debate the finer points of Old Testament practices of doctrinal conformance as presented in the book of Numbers. He is looking to spout off some anti-Christian crap just to rile up people.

He needs to just leave it be. He is not not going to convince any Christian to renounce their religious beliefs based on a few posting in an Internet forum. And if someone were to change their mind based on his posting that person was an adherent in the first place.

No, Macintologist is just a d*** trying to foment conflict.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:52 PM
 
It's pretty disgusting to watch people defend vast passages because one line was missing or because there are other lines in a book they feel comfortable with.

How about we do a little update of the story to see how you would feel as a Medianite if they were Americans and Moses was Bin Ladin? The fact is Jews, apart from ultra-rightwing orthdox who are hardly unlike the Taleban, have viewed these stories as something to be shameful of. Why can't WASP Christians deal with it too instead of defending it?

Such passages also exist in Islamic texts. Progressive Arab thinkers have denounced them as barbaric while people like Osama, Zarqawi and their followers praise such acts of murder, theft and terrorism in the name of God.

Whose side will you be on? How is your conscience?
     
SimpleLife
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Apr 10, 2005, 09:06 PM
 
Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
No, Macintologist is just a d*** trying to foment conflict.
It takes 2 to debate, and victims to have a conflict.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 10, 2005, 11:27 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
LOL, this is the best the Christians can do? They think that one little line will vindicate their violent Holy Bible, which encourages the dashing of infants heads against a rock, raping virgin girls, killing babies, slavery, subjugation of women, etc. Either you fess up and admit your Bible is violent, or remain in denial for the rest of your spiritual existence.
No, I am saying you are being a drama queen. And you are!
     
Shaddim
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Apr 11, 2005, 09:30 AM
 
macintologist,

*sigh* It's allegory written, best we can tell, by Ezra, based on a much older oral tradition... it's a tribal morality tale. Almost any Jewish Theologian will tell you that. FWIW, there is a very important, and mildly enlightening, message in that particular passage, but I'd be wasting my time trying to spell it out for you. Given your infantile and unreceptive state of mind, you'd never be able to grasp it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Apr 11, 2005, 10:25 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
macintologist,

*sigh* It's allegory written, best we can tell, by Ezra, based on a much older oral tradition... it's a tribal morality tale. Almost any Jewish Theologian will tell you that. FWIW, there is a very important, and mildly enlightening, message in that particular passage, but I'd be wasting my time trying to spell it out for you. Given your infantile and unreceptive state of mind, you'd never be able to grasp it.
Tsk tsk -- that's not very "open-minded" or "accepting" of you -- and not "tolerant" in the least, MacNStein!

Oh wait -- macintologist, being the liberal that he is, is the one that's supposed to be so accepting and tolerant of other people.

Huh. The irony is sickening.

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
Kilbey
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Apr 11, 2005, 07:14 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
LOL, this is the best the Christians can do? They think that one little line will vindicate their violent Holy Bible, which encourages the dashing of infants heads against a rock, raping virgin girls, killing babies, slavery, subjugation of women, etc. Either you fess up and admit your Bible is violent, or remain in denial for the rest of your spiritual existence.
Why was the line left out then? I'll tell you: to take the entire passage out of context. MacNStein has it mostly right, you could learn quite a lot from him.

The Bible is full of violence! REPEAT: The Bible is full of violence! I have no denial of it. It reveals man's true nature. It needs to be taken into context as a whole though to learn the redeming value it includes also. The path to peace and a relationship with The Creator.

Taken passage by passage you can make just about anything you want out of it. But as a whole it will change your life to one of peace and true understanding. Don't be lazy.
     
Kilbey
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Apr 11, 2005, 07:17 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Tsk tsk -- that's not very "open-minded" or "accepting" of you -- and not "tolerant" in the least, MacNStein!

Oh wait -- macintologist, being the liberal that he is, is the one that's supposed to be so accepting and tolerant of other people.

Huh. The irony is sickening.

Maury
Liberals always preach tolerance. Why are they so intolerant of Christians?
     
budster101
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Apr 11, 2005, 07:36 PM
 
Hey, it's his religion, let him spread the word of anti-christiandom if he wants.

The anti-church-church if you will.

---

MacnStein usually is quite right when it comes to religion, and he should be, that PhD didn't come mail order. He earned it.

---
Originally posted by Macintologist
LOL, this is the best the Christians can do? They think that one little line will vindicate their violent Holy Bible, which encourages the dashing of infants heads against a rock, raping virgin girls, killing babies, slavery, subjugation of women, etc. Either you fess up and admit your Bible is violent, or remain in denial for the rest of your spiritual existence.
I thought denial was a river in Egypt.

Dude, you have issues with the Bible, and Christians, and seem to have a fetish for telling anyone who will listen. Doesn't that strike you as a bit 'Preachy'?

I think we all know the Bible is a book based on stories, and some half-truths, and some factual information. Much has been made of the book, and yet, nothing at the same time.

Take a chill-pill and relax already. You aren't going to change anyone's mind that believes, and you are only pissing off people by your crazy threads. It's just annoying. I guess though, that is your main purpose for them anyway.


---

btw: you do deserve that medal. Michael Moore attacks for the sole purpose of attempting to discredit and slander by using deceptive tactics. It's pretty pathetic.

---

Talk about 'thinking for yourself' , you read this crap? Wow.

http://spl.haxial.net/

Disturbed person alert...

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( Last edited by budster101; Apr 11, 2005 at 07:41 PM. )
     
Mithras
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Apr 11, 2005, 09:22 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Not that this nutjob will care, but he sure does like ellipses. Here's the FULL passage in case someone with a brain wants to read it:

31:16
"Yet they are the ones who, at Balaam's advice, incited the Israelites to unfaithfulness against the Lord in the Peor incident, so that the plague came against the Lord's community.
That's the Holman Christian Standard translation. I boldfaced one of the key verses to the whole context of the passage, which was "astonishingly" edited out with a handy "...".

Spare us, and move along...
Maury
Did we read the same "exculpatory" verse? Let's break it down:
Moses is angry, because the army has allowed the women to live.
Why is he angry that they allowed the women to live? Because these women "incited the Israelites to unfaithfulness against the Lord." How did they do that?
Numbers 25 (NIV):
1 While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women,
2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods.
3 So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD's anger burned against them.
I see. The Israelite men engaged in "sexual immorality" with these women. The women then invited the men to join them in their religious services. And this made the LORD angry. So the Israelites had a plague, which only ended when a fornicating Israelite and the Moabite woman were speared to death.

Because these women permitted Israelite men to have sex with them, and later invited the men to come with them to "church", Moses says the women must die.

In what sense does this contradict the overall sense of the passage?
Answer: Not at all. Probably it was elided because the reference to the earlier incident is confusing, and interrupts the flow of the narrative. It certainly doesn't change the sense of the passage in any way.
     
Mithras
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Apr 11, 2005, 09:27 PM
 
MacNStein: I agree that there can be many subtle and interesting lessons woven throughout these tales. And I would love to hear your exposition on this one -- earnestly.

But at the same time, to think that they are not the record of a people who, like all contemporaneous peoples, engaged in genocide, baby-killing, and general nasty slaughter, is to be delusional.


macintologist: Great dramatization. Gripping! Vivid! Really, I enjoyed it; thanks for reposting it here. And I agree with the implication of your thread question. But what next? You have to be bigger than them; rather than sticking your thumb on your nose and waggling your fingers, try to figure out how to live in a world where people think texts like these reflect the Word of God. Rubbing their faces in it in a controversial way isn't going to help you or them.

</sanctimoniousness>
( Last edited by Mithras; Apr 11, 2005 at 09:42 PM. )
     
budster101
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Apr 12, 2005, 10:21 AM
 
And yet most people who read the Bible are against the killing of babies. (Abortion).

Go figure.
     
macintologist  (op)
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Apr 12, 2005, 10:28 AM
 
Originally posted by budster101:
And yet most people who read the Bible are against the killing of babies. (Abortion).

Go figure.
More people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion.
     
budster101
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Apr 12, 2005, 10:35 AM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
More people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion.
Edit: Your agenda is rearing it's ugly head again, and again, and again...

Now then, we were discussing the fact as you say that "Moses was a baby killer", and the next premise that you think the Bible promotes the killing of babies.

I responded with the fact that the majority of those who read the Bible are against the killing of babies.

Having your initial premise crushed by logic and the truth, you fall back on the old and common bait statement that "More people have killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion."

Is there another reason that you now wish to change the topic of your thread?
     
Kilbey
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Apr 12, 2005, 05:31 PM
 
Originally posted by budster101:
Is there another reason that you now wish to change the topic of your thread?
I'll take "the inability to admit he is wrong" for $200 Alex.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 12, 2005, 06:10 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
More people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion.
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 12, 2005, 06:30 PM
 
Originally posted by budster101:
And yet most people who read the Bible are against the killing of babies. (Abortion).
Yet so many American Christians support the death penalty (grown up babies). Not all though, certainly non-American Christians have more sense.
     
undotwa
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Apr 12, 2005, 08:07 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
More people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion.
What about atheistic communism in China, Russia, Cambodia etc. or Nazism? Millions upon millions murdered. More people alone have been killed by these secular modernist ideologies than I believe all the previous wars of history concerning Christianity.

What about the Islamic conquests of Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey etc. in the 7th and 8th centuries? Tens of thousands martyred.

What about the Boxer Rebellion in China where tens of thousands of Christians were martyred?

What about the suppression of Christianity under the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1600? Hundreds of thousands of Christians brutally murdered.

What about the brutal pagan religions of the Americas where an innumerable amount of deaths occured from ritualistic human sacrifice?

I think that your statement is hardly tenable.
In vino veritas.
     
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Apr 12, 2005, 08:53 PM
 
Originally posted by undotwa:
What about atheistic communism in China, Russia, Cambodia etc. or Nazism?
They were secular? Christianity wasn't the only thing they controlled. Puleeze.

Also, not every person in their governments were atheists. Very few in fact. Many Russians in the military went to Church or prayed before going off to do their duties. That's just a single example.
     
Mithras
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Apr 12, 2005, 09:51 PM
 
I absolutely agree that neither Judaism nor Christianity is unique in the history of religion -- or quasi-religious atheistic worldviews -- in sanctioning hideous acts of genocide and barbarism.

I would take the moment to point out, though, that what's changed in the past ~3000 years since the events chronicled in macintologist's little story is not religion, but ethical ideas both within and without religion. Theologians have played a role in the development of these modern humanistic values, and so have a great many nontheologians, and indeed nonreligious people.

When we trace the history of the idea that maybe we oughtn't kill all of the Midianite women for sleeping with our men, religion per se hasn't made a great difference one way or the other.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 12, 2005, 10:45 PM
 
The real cause of this isn't religion, or faith.

It's greed. Man's arrogance and greed.

What man uses to get what he wants because of these two things can't really be blamed.

Religion cannot physically do anything.
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 12, 2005, 11:28 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
The real cause of this isn't religion, or faith.
Because theocracies like the ones recommended by the Bible and Koran are such rosey places to live in

Newsflash: Man = Greedy. Man = Makes God in his own image. Man = Writes Bible/Koran. Man = Rules over people by lying to them.

Graw teh fak up
     
Zimphire
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Apr 13, 2005, 07:03 AM
 
Originally posted by RonnieoftheRose:
Newsflash: Man = Greedy. Man = Makes God in his own image. Man = Writes Bible/Koran. Man = Rules over people by lying to them.

Graw teh fak up
Well you have every right to believe that Ronnie.

But it takes faith to believe that since you have no proof to back said belief up.

How does it feel to live in faith?
     
Shaddim
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Apr 13, 2005, 09:42 AM
 
Originally posted by RonnieoftheRose:
They were secular? Christianity wasn't the only thing they controlled. Puleeze.

Also, not every person in their governments were atheists. Very few in fact. Many Russians in the military went to Church or prayed before going off to do their duties. That's just a single example.
Many Christians in the USSR military leadership? Really? I'd like to see some info on that. I somehow doubt it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
macintologist  (op)
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Apr 13, 2005, 10:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Religion cannot physically do anything.
So then this sign is wrong too?
     
Kilbey
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Apr 13, 2005, 07:47 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
So then this sign is wrong too?
You are correct! Wow! Mark the calendars for this day!

Seriously kid, it's people using something to do the killing. A belief system on it's own is physically unable to do anything.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 13, 2005, 07:52 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
So then this sign is wrong too?
Indeed.
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 13, 2005, 08:37 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Many Christians in the USSR military leadership? Really? I'd like to see some info on that. I somehow doubt it.
Putin still appears in the news going to church. Things were no different then. The Western media made it looked otherwise. The churches were always open as they were in China were they have their own branch of Catholicism separate from Rome. The only thing they didn't have is western missionaries going there to get the church money for themselves. So they must have been evil secular atheists!

Hey, here's something else. Did you know Saddam called himself 'socialist' but also said he was working for God? Did you also know he was friends with American Christian missionaries, the cowboy hat Bible bashing variety, and helped them build churches in Iraq? True story. In the late nineties, maybe still today but I doubt it after 9-11, these very missionaries used to preach in Hyde Park, London, every Sunday and had many good words to say about Saddam and the work he helped them do. Some of the money they gave him no doubt went to...Palestinian martyrs!

But of course...let's turn a blind eye.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 13, 2005, 08:39 PM
 
Ronnie ever heard of the story about the wolf in the sheep's clothing?
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 13, 2005, 08:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ronnie ever heard of the story about the wolf in the sheep's clothing?
Hear of it? I'm replying to one now!
     
Zimphire
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Apr 13, 2005, 08:42 PM
 
<-- me
     
demograph68
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Apr 13, 2005, 08:42 PM
 
Faith isn't a religious term. Realistically, faith is meaningless.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 13, 2005, 08:44 PM
 
Who said faith was?
     
demograph68
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Apr 13, 2005, 09:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Who said faith was?
The voices inside my head.
     
Shaddim
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Apr 14, 2005, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose
Putin still appears in the news going to church. Things were no different then. The Western media made it looked otherwise. The churches were always open as they were in China were they have their own branch of Catholicism separate from Rome. The only thing they didn't have is western missionaries going there to get the church money for themselves. So they must have been evil secular atheists!

Hey, here's something else. Did you know Saddam called himself 'socialist' but also said he was working for God? Did you also know he was friends with American Christian missionaries, the cowboy hat Bible bashing variety, and helped them build churches in Iraq? True story. In the late nineties, maybe still today but I doubt it after 9-11, these very missionaries used to preach in Hyde Park, London, every Sunday and had many good words to say about Saddam and the work he helped them do. Some of the money they gave him no doubt went to...Palestinian martyrs!

But of course...let's turn a blind eye.
Russia isn't the USSR and I don't believe the comments about Saddam. I've seen references before, but no evidence to back them up.

I know Russian Orthodox priests in Russia, quite a few, in fact. The pressures exerted on them by the Soviet gov't were unbearable.

After the Revolution of 1917, the Bolsheviks undertook a massive program to remove the influence of the Russian Orthodox Church from the government and Russian society, and to make the state atheist. Thousands of churches were destroyed or converted to other uses, such as warehouses. Monasteries were closed and often converted to prison camps, most notably the Solovetz monastery becoming Solovki camp. Many members of clergy were imprisoned for anti-government activities. These victims are now recognized as the "New Martyrs" by the Russian Orthodox Church, the old martyrs being the victims of the Roman persecutions. Church property, including the icons and other objects of worship (especially those made of precious metals) was confiscated and put to other uses.
http://www.answers.com/topic/persecution-of-christians
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
undotwa
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Apr 15, 2005, 07:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose
They were secular? Christianity wasn't the only thing they controlled. Puleeze.

Also, not every person in their governments were atheists. Very few in fact. Many Russians in the military went to Church or prayed before going off to do their duties. That's just a single example.
For a government to be secular , not every member has to be an athiest. The policies of these communistic governments were secular and so from that we deduce that the government was secular, by its policy. Have you no idea what persecution the Orthodox Church faced under Communist rule?
In vino veritas.
     
undotwa
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Apr 15, 2005, 08:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose
Putin still appears in the news going to church. Things were no different then. The Western media made it looked otherwise. The churches were always open as they were in China were they have their own branch of Catholicism separate from Rome. The only thing they didn't have is western missionaries going there to get the church money for themselves. So they must have been evil secular atheists!

Hey, here's something else. Did you know Saddam called himself 'socialist' but also said he was working for God? Did you also know he was friends with American Christian missionaries, the cowboy hat Bible bashing variety, and helped them build churches in Iraq? True story. In the late nineties, maybe still today but I doubt it after 9-11, these very missionaries used to preach in Hyde Park, London, every Sunday and had many good words to say about Saddam and the work he helped them do. Some of the money they gave him no doubt went to...Palestinian martyrs!

But of course...let's turn a blind eye.
Turn a blind eye? What is this I hear of turning a blind eye?

Read some damn factual history for goodness' sake!
In vino veritas.
     
Will V.
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Apr 15, 2005, 09:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by undotwa
What about atheistic communism in China, Russia, Cambodia etc. or Nazism? Millions upon millions murdered. More people alone have been killed by these secular modernist ideologies than I believe all the previous wars of history concerning Christianity.

What about the Islamic conquests of Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey etc. in the 7th and 8th centuries? Tens of thousands martyred.

What about the Boxer Rebellion in China where tens of thousands of Christians were martyred?

What about the suppression of Christianity under the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1600? Hundreds of thousands of Christians brutally murdered.

What about the brutal pagan religions of the Americas where an innumerable amount of deaths occured from ritualistic human sacrifice?

I think that your statement is hardly tenable.
People don't get to be good because others are bad, they get to be good through their own actions, and only through their own actions. If you look at the actions of Christians, from the Crusades, to the exploration and conquering of the New World, to our unique version of slavery, to westward expansion, to our relationship with our southern neighbors, to our modern military campaigns, it's a pretty dismal record. Certainly as dismal as any of those mentioned above. Are we getting better?
     
vmarks
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Apr 15, 2005, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Will V.
People don't get to be good because others are bad, they get to be good through their own actions, and only through their own actions. If you look at the actions of Christians, from the Crusades, to the exploration and conquering of the New World, to our unique version of slavery, to westward expansion, to our relationship with our southern neighbors, to our modern military campaigns, it's a pretty dismal record. Certainly as dismal as any of those mentioned above. Are we getting better?
Your reply fails because with the exception of the Crusades and spread to the New World, all other items you mentioned were not prompted by a Christian belief system. It also fails because the Crusades were a response to Muslim oppression of Christians, not some unprovoked assault. It is also interesting that you say US slavery was unique in the world. I am not sure that it was or on what basis you think that it was, and it certainly wasn't based on Christian ideals or Christian motivation. However, the oppression of Christians and Jews under Muslim rule is well documented throughout history, and the enslavement of Christians under Muslim rule goes on to this day. See Sudan.


Your case would have been much stronger if you had only mentioned the Spanish Inquisition and left the rest alone.

Summary:
Crusades? Christian, but a response to Muslim oppression of Christians.

Exploration of the New World? Christian motivation to speard the Word, but also non-Christian motivation of world domination and new-found wealth by the likes of Ferdinand and Isabella.

So-called Unique version of Slavery? No Christian motivation. Use of the word unique is questionable.

Westward expansion? No Christian motivation.

Relationship with southern neighbors? No idea who you mean: Is it Mexico, or Alabama?

Modern Military Campaigns? No modern military campaign has been about spreading Christianity.

On this reverse side, the examples cited previously:

atheistic communism in China, Russia, Cambodia etc. or Nazism? The motivation was the spread of communism or Nazism.

What about the Islamic conquests of Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey etc. in the 7th and 8th centuries? The goal was the spread of Islam and making it dominant, the only accepted religion.
If this post is in the Lounge forum, it is likely to be my own opinion, and not representative of the position of MacNN.com.
     
 
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