[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by UnixMac 

You're correct, yet another fact lost on the anti-Islam crowd today.

Some minds are just closed to change... partly because the person is motivated by a political agenda... but facts are facts..

Jews and Muslims in the Middle Ages � Katamon Journal

Don't get me wrong. I agree with Big Mac that modern Islam, taken as a whole, is a majorly messed-up institution. It's probably worse than Christendom was at its worst, just less powerful. I definitely think it's something to be wary of. I just don't see how the evidence supports the idea that Islam is inherently bad — I'd say that's just where it's trended in recent times.

This also isn't me being "closed to change." I'm fine with change that doesn't involve people stoning their daughters to death and hating the Jews just for existing.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

For its part even Islam used to verify that truth. Look at Koran, chapter 17 (Al-Isra), verse 104:
"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning (of the End of Days) will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd." But it seems that Islamic theology discounts that as being part of the "abrogated" verses, theology that the Islamic deity apparently changed his mind on.

Christianity has an even less flattering reason why it's a `good thing' that all the Jews gather in Israel (= the land).

Originally Posted by Zechariah

13:8 It will happen in all the land, says the Lord, that two-thirds of the people in it will be cut off and die, but one-third will be left in it.
13:9 Then I will bring the remaining third into the fire; I will refine them like silver is refined
and will test them like gold is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer;
I will say, ‘These are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’

So in order for Christians to be saved, two thirds of the Jews serve as human sacrifice and must die.
(Not that I subscribe to this point of view.)

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Islam actually used to be at the forefront of culture and science — I mean, we still use their word algebra. So I have trouble buying that it's an inherently violent philosophy when the Islamic world as a whole was actually ahead of the Christian world for quite a while.

Agreed. Their advance in geometry, optics and other mathematical subjects over 'the west' was enormous.

Why do we use their numbers and they don't? I've never found an answer to that.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Agreed. Their advance in geometry, optics and other mathematical subjects over 'the west' was enormous.

Why do we use their numbers and they don't? I've never found an answer to that.

Algebra(by some other name) originated in India. The civilizations before Islam in those vicinities also used similar mathematical theories.... think Egyptians/Babylonians/Mesopotamians.

Also, glass/mirrors originated in ancient Egypt.... long before Islam.

As far as geometry..... well you only need look at the Pyramids to know where the origins of their geometry stem from.

Too bad they(Muslims) havent added any value to that knowledge for 1400 odd years, while the rest of the world moved on, grew up, learned, discovered, etc.... i wonder what's holding them back. I wonder what the main socio-political difference is between those ancient societies and the societies of today which inhabit that region.(rhetorical question)

In the meantime...... Europe grew, the new world blossomed, China & India emerged(recent), Japan underwent a massive transformation. And last but not least, the largest segment of people who win Nobel prizes are Jewish.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chongo

One man's take on the moon/rock theory. He discusses the " There in no... " creed. YouTube - Who is Allah? Part 4

What a tiresome rant that was. We never even learn the name of the speaker. The title of "Idiot's Guide" is accurate, since only idiots are attracted to this kind of screed.

Yep. I've got "allah" as one of Mecca's old pagan gods too. or Hadad, whichever you like

Several of God's names or titles in the Jewish bible, such as El or Eliyon or Adonai, were used by the surrounding peoples also. It's meaningless.

And El Hadad wasn't known in the area around Mecca, unless you think Mohammed went to Mesopotamia.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Algebra(by some other name) originated in India. The civilizations before Islam in those vicinities also used similar mathematical theories.... think Egyptians/Babylonians/Mesopotamians.

Also, glass/mirrors originated in ancient Egypt.... long before Islam.

As far as geometry..... well you only need look at the Pyramids to know where the origins of their geometry stem from.

Too bad they(Muslims) havent added any value to that knowledge for 1400 odd years, while the rest of the world moved on, grew up, learned, discovered, etc.... i wonder what's holding them back. I wonder what the main socio-political difference is between those ancient societies and the societies of today which inhabit that region.(rhetorical question)

In the meantime...... Europe grew, the new world blossomed, China & India emerged(recent), Japan underwent a massive transformation. And last but not least, the largest segment of people who win Nobel prizes are Jewish.

It's important to note that those are overwhelmingly Reformed Jews and are very secular or even outright nonbelievers.

The rest of your comment is ahistorical nonsense. To say Muslims contributed nothing and merely carried on existing knowledge would be comical, if it wasn't so petty. Grow up.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You really need to watch the documentary I'm going to link to because I know for a fact that you don't understand that violent mandates of Islam. Yes, certain verses of the Koran are peaceful, but they are abrogated and nullified according to the religion by the chronologically later verses. The documentary I'm linking to goes through all of this; I made this thread specifically to promote it in the face of views such as yours.

Islam: What the West Needs to Know

All of you who think like lpk, watch this documentary - I think it will be edifying for you. Let me know if you think you can refute any of it.

I'm pretty sure I saw this a few years ago, but I'll watch it again. As I recall, it's a very narrow interpretation of the Koran, with the assumption that all Muslims view the Koran this way. And it's unnecessarily long and trite.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I chose to look at this particular post of yours, lpk. And I'm glad you made those claims. I already explained the manifestations and theological limitations of violence in Judaism in besson's religion thread, which you may have missed or ignored. To recap, Judaism allows for violence limited to self-defense, the settlement of the Land of Israel and the defense of the Land of Israel. Aside from that, Jews are prohibited from using violence even against their enemies. In contrast, Islam's violence on behalf of spreading the faith so that Islam becomes the religion of the world is unrestricted. (Muslims are also openly permitted to lie to non-Muslims, whereas Judaism counts lying to non-Jews as a serious sin.)

Well that bodes ill for peace in the Middle East, particularly the West Bank.

BTW, I don't think lying is an absolute evil. It's permissible to lie to protect yourself from harm, such as snoopers and gossipers for instance.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The rest of your comment is ahistorical nonsense. To say Muslims contributed nothing and merely carried on existing knowledge would be comical, if it wasn't so petty. Grow up.

Prove me wrong.

Just to make it easier for you to do so, expand your scope to include fine arts as well.

[UnixMac]

The amount of misinformation in this thread re: Islam, the word Allah (used by Christian Arabs as well), and other issues relating to the contributions of Islam to modern civilization are mind boggling on a forum of Apple / Mac users.. This demographic should be one of the more educated segments of society. I feel like I'm reading posts on GarageJournal for God's sake!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Prove me wrong.

Just to make it easier for you to do so, expand your scope to include fine arts as well.

Sure: how about Penrose tilings:

They can be found in quite a few mosques:

Of course, it would be improper to call them Penrose tilings in this context, because they have been found much earlier.

Arab scholars were leading when it comes to mathematics (as you can see above), geography and medicine, for instance.

They have invented quite a few things themselves, but that still doesn't change where they are today.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Sure: how about Penrose tilings:

They can be found in quite a few mosques:

Of course, it would be improper to call them Penrose tilings in this context, because they have been found much earlier.

Arab scholars were leading when it comes to mathematics (as you can see above), geography and medicine, for instance.

They have invented quite a few things themselves, but that still doesn't change where they are today.

In that case, why do the so eagerly adopt western architecture ?....... science, medicine, financial structures, industry, business models, art(instruments, motion pictures, photography, etc), fashion, communication systems(radio, newspapers, television, internet, etc), education systems, transportation systems(cars, aircraft, etc), computers, manufacturing systems(production facilities), defense/military systems, etc....... well you get my point.

UnixMac...... how long have you lived in the middle east, specifically a predominantly Muslim nation ? i'm clocking pretty close to 15 years myself.

I'd like to clarify that as people I think they have just as much potential as anyone, and prior to a certain point in time 1400 odd years ago, theirs were the 'empires' that were leading the way in language, art, hygiene, science, etc..... but unfortunately their choice in a restrictive, overbearing and in my opinion controlling socio-political paradigm stifled their growth as a people.....the results of which we see today. On the physical level we're all born the same, pretty much, with the same capabilities and potential. the choices that follow(such as religion) play a great role in determining the distance we actually end up going and what we ultimately contribute.

Could you imagine what middle-eastern society would have been like today if the ancient egyptians/babylonians/persians continued to flourish and they could actually capitalize on the oil reserves they sit on on their own ?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Christianity has an even less flattering reason why it's a `good thing' that all the Jews gather in Israel (= the land). So in order for Christians to be saved, two thirds of the Jews serve as human sacrifice and must die. (Not that I subscribe to this point of view.)

That may be a traditional Christian reading, but Christians use such a tortured reading of that chapter from Zechariah that their position is untenable and their interpretations about other verses like the ones you cite questionable at best. For instance, they identify the shepherd with wounds between his hands as a proof text for the Christian deity, but the text clearly says that that very shepherd will be punished for misleading the flock. "O sword, awaken against My shepherd and against the man who is associated with Me! says the L-rd of Hosts." They are desperate to insert Christological overtones anywhere they can shoehorn it into the Hebrew Scriptures, but I don't think they knowingly would want to call that shepherd their deity, if you catch my drift. (Sorry for any offense my Christian friends, but if these subjects are to be brought up I have to be honest.)

As for Zech. 13 saying 2/3rd of the people perishing and 1/3 surviving, it says that about "all the land." The verse appears to be talking not narrowly about the Land of Israel about all the land and all the population of the earth. Rashi's commentary states that these verses are talking about non-Jewish proselytes at the end of Gog & Magog. The Talmud says that the judgment will be upon all the descendants of Noah. In the beginning of the chapter G-d says that all He will remove contamination throughout all the earth, so from that you can see that the scope of these verses are most likely wider than Israel alone. Also, when prophecies are given pertaining to the Jewish people, they're usually far more specific in identifying the places where judgment will manifest - Jerusalem, Judah, etc.. Look back at chapter 12 and ahead at chapter 14 for specific prophecies related to Israel. (It is very interesting that G-d says that Judah will fight against Jerusalem since that's certainly coming to pass in our days when the citizens of Judah will increasingly be forced to fight against the evil decrees of capitulation and expulsion from the Israeli government and its Knesset, which is seated in Jerusalem.)

[lpkmckenna]

So I'm half-way thru What the West Needs to Know, and yeah, it's the same crap I saw a couple of years ago. I feel bad for anyone who finds this illuminating.

It boils down to this: "Islam = militant Islamic fundamentalism." That's the whole argument. Not surprisingly, this kind of thing only impresses people who are themselves very fundamentalist or orthodox in their thinking.

As for the story of Mohammed personally beheading 600-900 Jews, that has all the truth of King Arthur meets the Loch Ness Monster.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

So I'm half-way thru What the West Needs to Know, and yeah, it's the same crap I saw a couple of years ago. I feel bad for anyone who finds this illuminating.

Ah, I see, same crap. Now given that that's your claim, what specific evidence can you offer against any of the points made in the video?

It boils down to this: "Islam = militant Islamic fundamentalism." That's the whole argument. Not surprisingly, this kind of thing only impresses people who are themselves very fundamentalist or orthodox in their thinking.

A tremendous amount of evidence is brought to bear to prove the argument that Islam is a religion that promotes and even mandates violence against the non-believer. It demonstrates that fact in many different ways that come straight from Islamic fundamentalism. If you claim it's all crap, what evidence do you have to the contrary?

As for the story of Mohammed personally beheading 600-900 Jews, that has all the truth of King Arthur meets the Loch Ness Monster.

Even if it's a legend, religious Muslims are taught that Mohammed was the perfect man and the perfect example of how to live one's life; therefore, his example of intrigue and mass murder of Jews and others is taken directly to heat by many Muslims as the best model for mankind.

[Chuckit]

The Tanakh contains divine endorsements of genocide, infanticide and many other such things. I'm sure somebody could build a scary video around that.

[Big Mac]

Was that facile Devil's Advocate comment really necessary? Yes Tanakh does contain such things, but aside from retelling the history of battles, the Torah endorses warfare by the Nation of Israel that is limited by divine law - war which is only waged in the course of conquering or defending Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel, as I have pointed out multiple times. If the Jewish state followed the prescriptions of its G-d given laws, the conflict over the Land would take a much different course, but outside that geography Jews would not be in religious conflict with anyone. In contrast, the Koran's mandate to make war on the non-believer is open ended with no legal or geographic limitations. Do you see the difference?

Additionally, non-Jews choosing to live as loyal minorities under a Torah-based state would have their rights highly respected, as opposed to the degraded dhimmi status that non-Muslims suffer under in Muslim states.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Was that facile Devil's Advocate comment really necessary?

When your argument is "If Muhammad reputedly killed Jews, that will turn Muslims into homicidal maniacs," I thought it was worth asking why the same logic does not apply to your own religion. If God commanding and even taking credit for these things is not enough to turn all of modern Judaism evil, I think Muslims might not be beyond hope.

[Hawkeye_a]

Because when you factor in how open said societies are to change, and growth, one society could take a lesson from those old books and decide to improve and leave stories where they belong, while the other takes it literally and tries to repeat it.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Algebra(by some other name) originated in India. The civilizations before Islam in those vicinities also used similar mathematical theories.... think Egyptians/Babylonians/Mesopotamians.

I never said that Muslims or Islam invented algebra. Read what I wrote. You seem to have the same problems when talking about games as history or religion, you don't actually argue about what someone else wrote, you digress slightly.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Also, glass/mirrors originated in ancient Egypt.... long before Islam.

See above.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

As far as geometry..... well you only need look at the Pyramids to know where the origins of their geometry stem from.

See above. Spent four years in Egypt, been in the big old Pyramid a few times, saw the big stoney thing that got left behind.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

In the meantime...... Europe grew, the new world blossomed, China & India emerged(recent), Japan underwent a massive transformation. And last but not least, the largest segment of people who win Nobel prizes are Jewish.

Be interested to see a link to this info (Nobel prize winners) if you've got it.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

When your argument is "If Muhammad reputedly killed Jews, that will turn Muslims into homicidal maniacs," I thought it was worth asking why the same logic does not apply to your own religion.

Fair enough, but I thought I had already covered that issue a number of times in various threads. I hope my reply was edifying. (Also, I noted that you said that while you don't like much of the institution of Islam, you don't see how the religion itself is at fault. Have you watched the documentary yet?)

Btw, I think you're trivializing the point I was making about the Islamic ideal. Mohammed is viewed by Islamic orthodoxy as the ideal to aspire to and to emulate, so it's no surprise that radicals emulate him when they murder Jews and crash planes into the heart of the heavily Jewish metropolis - New York was selected in part by Al Qaeda because of its Jewish population. That ideal will turn a portion of Muslims into homicidal maniacs who believe that killing innocent Jews and Christians (and others) in jihad will guarantee them entry to Muslim paradise with their 72 Houris. Certainly not a majority will be radicalized to that degree, but a large portion of the religious Muslim world at least applauds the murder of Jews and Christians. That is verifiably true.

If God commanding and even taking credit for these things is not enough to turn all of modern Judaism evil, I think Muslims might not be beyond hope.

I guess you missed the point I was making. First of all, we affirm that G-d is the maker of all creation and all of His ways are holy and just, so if He chooses to condemn some of what He has created because of their transgressions, He can do so as he pleases. His ways are always good even if those on the receiving end of punishment see them as evil. Secondly, our mandate to observe the Torah did not change from ancient times to today. (Yes, before you say it, there has been a barrier in our observance for the last 1900 years when we have lacked our Holy Temple, so a substantial portion of commandments cannot be directly, but that's besides the point.) The way we are commanded to conduct ourselves in relation to the non-Jewish world is covered by Jewish law that has changed very little since its inception from the earliest times. Our law was and is great, and it is mostly peaceful even toward enemies. So I take offense to your baseless characterization that G-d's law could have made us evil - it is good and what has always made us good.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Because when you factor in how open said societies are to change, and growth, one society could take a lesson from those old books and decide to improve and leave stories where they belong, while the other takes it literally and tries to repeat it.

I usually agree with you Hawkeye, but it's not a matter of that. Religious Jews are committed to our religion and its doctrines in a way that parallels the religious Muslim's commitment to Islam. We revere our founding figures like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and David in ways that parallel Muslim reverence for Mohammed. The difference is that while Judaism and Islam have many common elements (Islam having taken them from Judaism), there are a great many salient distinctions as well. For one, while we revere those figures, we don't take their actions as a straight template for our actions today because we have Torah and rabbinic laws that govern our actions directly. We also recognize that there are certain things that we cannot accomplish today without divine sovereignty leading us. I could make this post a mile long describing all kinds of differences between the two religions, but I have better things to do with my time. The fact that boils down is that Judaism is goodness, holiness, truth. I don't expect the non-Jew to believe that, but that is the truth. Meanwhile, Islam has some positive traits, some goodness, but it has a lot of evil on top, which makes it philosophically incoherent and forces religious Muslims to resort to bizarre claim of abrogation. And on top of that they abrogate most of the goodness!

And as I have been pointing out, the way the two religions approach warfare happens to be very different. National religious warfare stops for Jews at the borders of the Land, as I said. (Self-defense is recognized beyond that, but not religious war.) In contrast, there are no border restrictions for Islamic jihad. The highest Jewish aspiration is peace; war, when necessary, is never desired or highly valued. In contrast, the highest Muslim aspiration is holy war; peace is only valued as a consequence of overcoming one's foes in war. Jews are explicitly commanded to tell the truth not only to each other but to non-Jews, whereas Muslims are explicitly authorized to deceive the non-believer. Also, Jews are commanded to abided by the laws of the countries they reside in while in exile, as long as they do not force Jews to violate core aspects of the faith. In contrast, you can see in many countries with large Muslim minorities their push for the institution of Sharia law as a replacement of the existing legal institutions in those countries. Religious Jews would never desire that Halacha (Jewish law) be substituted for law in any country aside from a country with a Jewish majority, namely Israel. The qualitative differences between the two religions accounts for the peaceful orientation of religious Jews in contrast to the violent orientation of religious Muslims.

Of course, one could rightly also point out that the lack of Jewish political sovereignty and the degraded state of exile over the last 1800 years has also contributed to Jewish meekness, which is true. But aside from that you can see in the history of the modern state of Israel that Jews continue to be largely peaceful even with a measure of political sovereignty. Israel-bashers will dispute that point, but no other country I can think of has sacrificed more in the name of peace and conceded more in victory against its vanquished, hostile enemies in the name of peace than Israel.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

I never said that Muslims or Islam invented algebra. Read what I wrote. You seem to have the same problems when talking about games as history or religion, you don't actually argue about what someone else wrote, you digress slightly.



See above.



See above. Spent four years in Egypt, been in the big old Pyramid a few times, saw the big stoney thing that got left behind.



Be interested to see a link to this info (Nobel prize winners) if you've got it.

Meh i've said what i've wanted on this subject. (Oh and, i too have been inside the great pyramid. it was on a school trip actually, so we were only in Egypt for a week). But I am glad to know that you have spent an extended period of time in the Middle East, and so i do respect your opinion in this discussion now.

I'm still waiting for someone to find that great contribution Islamic society has made to society. No society is perfect, obviously, but surely maybe one of you could find something ? Maybe something in the realm of Human Rights ? Woman's Lib ?

BigMac,
Point taken. I havent been around religious orthodox Jews, so i do not know how they practice. I guess if you(as a Jew) say they follow the old texts to the word, like the Muslims, they probably do. In the end when i look at both groups, i dont see Jews on every continent attacking people indiscriminately because of a difference in faith, but i do see Muslims doing so i nthe name of Islam. So in the end whatever the difference is, i appretiate it. It is interesting that you mention Jewish exile to their relitave 'meekness' in the first half of the last century. Do you think that if theoretically, Israel did occupy all of Jordan as well today, we would see extremest Jews akin to extremist islamists ? (ie is there a similar notion in Judaism to Islamic Jihad that can be interpreted as 'death to infidels' or whatever), Also (my knowledge of Jewish history is limited)......are religious Jews bent on converting the world to Judaism ?

Cheers for the discussion guys.... i'll be withdrawing to spectator mode now.

PS>> Link (probably not the most unbiased of sources but the best one i could find on Google (im sure one can verify the info). I did read the thing about Nobel Prizes in a book, but i cant remember which one)

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Btw, I think you're trivializing the point I was making about the Islamic ideal. Mohammed is viewed by Islamic orthodoxy as the ideal to aspire to and to emulate, so it's no surprise that radicals emulate him when they murder Jews and crash planes into the heart of the heavily Jewish metropolis - New York was selected in part by Al Qaeda because of its Jewish population.

As I stated in another post, animosity towards Judaism, or animosity towards the United States for its support of Israel, is NOT a motive for the attacks against the US by Al Qaeda. Anti-Jewish sentiment is not a reason why the attacks took place. Anti-Jewish sentiment was not a causative factor--as you argue--it was a correlative factor subsumed under a general anti-Western, anti-everything-but-fundamentalist-Islam attitude that drives Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. The fact that large numbers of Jews live in metropolitan NYC is irrelevant to Al Qaeda's desire to hit at (what it sees as) the premier symbol of a despised Western culture.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Osama bin Laden attacked the United States on American soil because he saw it as the biggest symbol of the West, and it is the West's involvement/influence in the Arab Muslim Middle East to which he was opposed. Attacking the US was simply a matter of hitting the biggest western target to say to the western world "Stay out of our sh*t; we don't want you (and your socio-cultural influences) here."

Osama bin Laden is a true Islamic radical/fundamentalist. He wants the Muslim world--certainly the Arab Muslim world--to stay in the 12th century. And he wants to fight ANY attempts to modernize the Arab Muslim world. That is why he would organize attacks against Saudi Arabia in Saudi Arabia. He was just as mad at the Saudis for allowing in the Western infidels as he was made at the Western infidels for being there. Heck, the Saudis threw him out of Saudi Arabia in what, the late 1990s? As strict as it was, the Wahhabist Islamic fundamentalism of the Saudi rulers is/was not strict enough for Osama bin Laden's vision of a purely Islamic society/culture.

Osama bin Laden wants to maintain the tribal cultural and religious practices of 12th-century Islam in the 21st century. He wants to force Arab culture to restructure itself according to cultural and religious practices appropriate to the 12th century.* And the US, with its disproportionate socio-cultural influence on the rest of the world, is the biggest threat to maintaining that 12th-century mindset among Arab Muslim citizens of the Middle East.

*And while those "cultural and religious practices appropriate to the 12th century" include a lot of anti-Jewish and anti-Christian activity, being anti-Jewish or anti-Christian is NOT the motivating factor behind Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Maintaining a fundamentalist interpretation/practice of Islam in a very modern world IS the motivating factor behind Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

I'm still waiting for someone to find that great contribution Islamic society has made to society. No society is perfect, obviously, but surely maybe one of you could find something ? Maybe something in the realm of Human Rights ? Woman's Lib ?

Our president ran off a laundry list in his address to the Muslim world. But I guess you dispute much of that list. I don't know how much of the contributions that the golden age of Islam is credited with are actually truly Islam's to take credit for, but I acknowledge that there was a golden age and it must have produced some of what Islam's proponents claim.

Point taken. I havent been around religious orthodox Jews, so i do not know how they practice. I guess if you(as a Jew) say they follow the old texts to the word, like the Muslims, they probably do.

Yes, they (we) do study, believe in and follow the ancient texts as we have traditionally. We try to observe as much of the divine law as we can and imbue holiness into as many aspects of our daily lives as possible. There is, of course, some variation within the Orthodox continuum, but that's the general concept.

In the end when i look at both groups, i dont see Jews on every continent attacking people indiscriminately because of a difference in faith, but i do see Muslims doing so i nthe name of Islam. So in the end whatever the difference is, i appretiate it.

I appreciate your appreciation of the truth. I hope I have (or will below) sufficiently accounted for the difference you perceive.

It is interesting that you mention Jewish exile to their relitave 'meekness' in the first half of the last century. Do you think that if theoretically, Israel did occupy all of Jordan as well today, we would see extremest Jews akin to extremist islamists ? (ie is there a similar notion in Judaism to Islamic Jihad that can be interpreted as 'death to infidels' or whatever)

Relative meekness for the last 1800 years - I do attribute that in part to the lack of political sovereignty and the degradation of the exile. However, you ask if Jews had sovereignty over all of Jordan as well as what we have would there be extremist Jews, and my answer would be absolutely not. Most Israelis are prepared to give away much of the small subset of Jewish land that Israel possesses today in exchange for peace. They don't understand that the Jewish or western concept of peace differs considerably from the Hudna (temporary cessation of violence that is called peace but is really a prelude to war) that Islam offers to more powerful foes. A portion of them who are joined by Jews like me outside of Israel look at the dismal record of "land for peace" concessions and see that such schemes are fatally flawed; we believe it is sinful to give away that which Jews fought and died to retain, most of all the most sacred places to us.

If Israel had true sovereignty over the most important parts of the Land, which includes all of Jerusalem (and the Temple Mount, which we currently grant sovereignty to the Waqf), Judea, Samaria, the Golan, etc., and if Israel were committed to the defense of its citizens no matter what the world thinks, then the small portion of Jewish extremism in the world would virtually disappear, especially because under those circumstances the most fervent Zionists would likely go home to Israel. I'm waiting for a lot of that to occur, actually.

Also (my knowledge of Jewish history is limited)......are religious Jews bent on converting the world to Judaism ?

Nope, never, at least not for 4000 years. Abraham our father sought converts but not by force according to what we know of him. Our patriarch Jacob's sons formed the nucleus of our nation, and it was the children of Jacob/Israel who received the Torah at Sinai.

Early on, therefore, a key focus of our religion has been on our nationhood and the national revelation that took place. Lineages are also very important - especially the pure descent of the priestly Cohen line. While we accept converts and incorporate them into the nation, Jewish law actively deters conversion. It is said that a rabbi (an Orthodox rabbi at least) will turn a potential convert away three times to test whether he or she sincerely wants to make the eternal commitment of accepting the Torah. (Some Orthodox segments like Chabad try to deter conversion even more.)

Jews will never go out actively seeking converts - not in peace, and certainly never through force. Even in our eschatology it is prophesied that while idolatry will be removed from the earth, the whole world won't suddenly convert to Judaism. The other nations will acknowledge the one true G-d and the sovereignty of Israel, His chosen nation, but they will continue to mostly manage their own affairs. A couple may even rebel against the worldly revelation of G-d and be divinely punished until they repent, such as Egypt, which is named directly as doing such. The chapters of Zechariah that I was discussing with OC actually cover a lot of that.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

The Tanakh contains divine endorsements of genocide, infanticide and many other such things. I'm sure somebody could build a scary video around that.

That would be pretty easy. Moses himself ordered two (or was it three?) massacres. I might just do it for the LOLs!

Listening to Big Mac talk about Islam is pointless. He keeps tells us what "Muslims" believe. If I spent any time talking about what "Jews" believe, but limited it to the ultra-orthodox, it would be clearly false. Something is wrong with Big Mac's brain, because he can't recognize that.

Also, the fact that Big Mac believes that there is such a thing as a justified "religious war" is scary. All those Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are legitimate targets of warfare in his mind. And remember, God gives the entirely of the land to the shores of the Euphrates to the Israelites. Look at a map an see the insanity of that kind of "belief" in the modern world.

Originally Posted by Big Mac

So I take offense to your baseless characterization that G-d's law could have made us evil - it is good and what has always made us good.

As all those laws about killing witches and gays and adulterers, and killing your own children for apostasy, that's all "good" in your mind? I don't give a damn if you're "offended," because a lot of the Bible is just plain wrong: the writings of stone-age fanatics who occasionally got it right. The Koran is exactly the same, and you're blinded by indoctrination if you believe otherwise. There's a reason the overwhelming majority of Jews abandoned orthodoxy, for the same reason the majority of Muslim and Christians aren't "fundamentalists": unwillingness to swallow ancient myths and "morals" whole.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

In that case, why do the so eagerly adopt western architecture ?....... science, medicine, financial structures, industry, business models, art(instruments, motion pictures, photography, etc), fashion, communication systems(radio, newspapers, television, internet, etc), education systems, transportation systems(cars, aircraft, etc), computers, manufacturing systems(production facilities), defense/military systems, etc....... well you get my point.

Before, you were claiming that Arabs have never contributed anything to human society within the last 1400 years (`Too bad they(Muslims) havent added any value to that knowledge for 1400 odd years, while the rest of the world moved on, grew up, learned, discovered, etc....') and you have been proven wrong. In particular, you tried to challenge us by asking for specific examples for contributions to the arts.

You're trying to quote examples without understanding them properly, e. g. attributing the most significant advances in geometry (as a field of mathematics in the ancient times) to the Egyptians when it was actually the Greek. You also have the wrong idea about Western culture: even 1000 years ago, culture in Europe, compared to, say, the Chinese, was undeveloped in every respect. Western contributions came relatively late.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

I'd like to clarify that as people I think they have just as much potential as anyone, and prior to a certain point in time 1400 odd years ago, theirs were the 'empires' that were leading the way in language, art, hygiene, science, etc..... but unfortunately their choice in a restrictive, overbearing and in my opinion controlling socio-political paradigm stifled their growth as a people.....

That is true, but it did not start 1400 years ago (when what happened exactly? ), but much, much later. The flourishing culture was killed by religious extremists very similar to those in Europe: the rock doesn't fall to the ground because of gravity, but because of God's will! This is what has stifled development. And this is the reason why Europe has overtaken all superpowers on other continents after the invention of secularism and humanism.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

That may be a traditional Christian reading, but Christians use such a tortured reading of that chapter from Zechariah that their position is untenable and their interpretations about other verses like the ones you cite questionable at best.

You see, that's actually my point here: you explain to me that there is a different interpretation of these events today -- and for the vast share of Christians, this is probably true, you get no argument from me. This is exactly my point, though: if you look at the naked text, then also in the Bible (a `peaceful' religion some would claim) there are plenty of atrocities. And I agree that it is insufficient to point to passages in the bible to conclude whether or not Christianity is inherently violent or peaceful. However, the same is true of all other religions: any arguments based on `how violent the Koran is' and your (literal or not) interpretations of the text is equally invalid. It's not about the text, it's about how people behave today.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Prove me wrong.

Muslims were hugely influential in terms of astronomy. You can Google it yourself.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Nope, never, at least not for 4000 years. Abraham our father sought converts but not by force according to what we know of him. Our patriarch Jacob's sons formed the nucleus of our nation, and it was the children of Jacob/Israel who received the Torah at Sinai.

This is historically false. Before Christianity, Jewish proselytization did exist, and the great spread of Jews in Egypt and Asia Minor in the first century was partly the diaspora, partly proselytization. The Pharisees in particular were committed proselytizers. The Edomites were converted at the sword by the Hasmoneans; that's how Herod the Great's nation became Jews.) Jews abandoned proselytization under legal pressure once Christianity became the state religion.

There were small converted Jewish nations in history, including Abilene and Adiabene, and probably the Galatians of Paul's epistle were targets of Jewish proselytes too. (The traditional interpretation of Galatians was that after Paul converted them to Christianity, Jewish Christians came and insisted they adopt full Judaism. More likely, after Paul's departure, they reached out to learn more about this "Messiah" stuff and attracted the attention of nearby rabbis, not Jewish Christians. And they were successful, given Paul's rage in his letter.)

For the most part, conversion to Judaism was uncommon because this was too onerous, requiring the total abandonment of one's own culture. And as a result, the unconverted "God-fearers" became a common feature in first century synagogues, at least until Christianity.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Additionally, non-Jews choosing to live as loyal minorities under a Torah-based state would have their rights highly respected, as opposed to the degraded dhimmi status that non-Muslims suffer under in Muslim states.

More likely, they would be attacked by bears for laughing at holy people.

And bizarrely, non-Muslims in Muslim countries sometimes have more freedoms than Muslims do. Non-Muslims are often free to buy alcohol and other things that are banned under Sharia. (Not like I'd live there.)

Meanwhile, Islam has some positive traits, some goodness, but it has a lot of evil on top, which makes it philosophically incoherent and forces religious Muslims to resort to bizarre claim of abrogation. And on top of that they abrogate most of the goodness!

I'm not sure which is more absurd: believing one's scripture is without contradiction, or realizing it is and coming up with a theory that explain that God changed his mind. I have to credit Islam with common sense for not pretending the Koran is without contradiction. I wish North American Bible-thumpers had some common sense too.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

More likely, they would be attacked by bears for laughing at holy people.

That is one of the coolest stories in the Bible. A god that murders a bunch of children for laughing at a bald guy.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

That is one of the coolest stories in the Bible. A god that murders a bunch of children for laughing at a bald guy.

Huh?!?

While I am definitely more of a New Testament kinda guy I thought I still knew the whole Bible fairly well. What story is there in the Old Testament that has a bunch of bears attacking someone?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

That would be pretty easy. Moses himself ordered two (or was it three?) massacres. I might just do it for the LOLs!

Proud of you. Why don't you do that? Please, be my guest. I welcome your ignorant criticism.

Listening to Big Mac talk about Islam is pointless. He keeps tells us what "Muslims" believe.

I am telling you what fundamentalist Islam teaches and much of the religious Muslim world believes in, yes, and I am pointing you to a source of information that you reject outright without giving any substantive reasoning for doing so. I am not saying that all Muslims believe X, Y, or Z. There are secular and moderate Musims to be sure. There are even devout Muslims who consciously reject the violent portions of their religion, but they are far from the religious mainstream.

If I spent any time talking about what "Jews" believe, but limited it to the ultra-orthodox, it would be clearly false. Something is wrong with Big Mac's brain, because he can't recognize that.

Straw man.

Also, the fact that Big Mac believes that there is such a thing as a justified "religious war" is scary.

Why is it scary? Do you believe there are ever just wars? If so, then aside from your general hostility toward religion I don't see how you can automatically say that a war justified and governed under religious terms would always be a bad thing. You condemn that which you purposely try not to understand. You may think I'm a simpleton because I am a religious person, but here's the cold, honest truth: You're a narrow, provincial thinker steeped in and enamored with your own sanctimonious atheism. I truly feel bad for you and pray (!) for your future enlightenment.

All those Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are legitimate targets of warfare in his mind.

While that is true in part, please don't put words in my mouth because I never made such an open ended declaration. I believe that the Judea and Samaria (wrongly called the West Bank) should have been annexed thirty years ago and should be annexed now. As for Gaza, it is a cesspool of hatred. In the biblical era is was known as Aza, and it was the stronghold of the accursed Philistines, so it's fitting that the so-called Palestinians have their terrorist enclave there. Israel should shut off all the free utilities it gives to Gaza, declare it a hostile entity at war with Israel for (one) the thousands of rockets launched there into Israel over the last number of years that devastate Israel's bordering towns in way that's hugely traumatizing to innocent Israeli children, and let the strip naturally depopulate over the next number of years. Plus, rockets should be responded to with Israeli bombs. Israel needs to make it costly enough for that ignominious population to come begging for peace, not the other way around.

And remember, God gives the entirely of the land to the shores of the Euphrates to the Israelites. Look at a map an see the insanity of that kind of "belief" in the modern world.

The dimensions of the promised land are much larger than what we have today, but we would be satisfied with peace within substantially less territory. If we are to have less or more than that in the future only time well tell. Ultimately, what we get will be based on a combination of our merits plus divine mercy.

As all those laws about killing witches and gays and adulterers, and killing your own children for apostasy, that's all "good" in your mind?

1. The standard for imposing the death penalty for capital violations of the Torah was extraordinarily high. The person had to essentially engage in the behavior in front of at least three witnesses willing to testify to the act, and there were other rules in addition to that. The burden of proof was so high and capital punishment so unusual that a court that condemned one person to death in a period of 70 years was called a "bloody court"

2. The laws of the Torah were given not to the world generally but to the religious nation that He personally crafted and revealed Himself to. A high standard of conduct was set for that nation, the Jewish nation, and as such the Torah condemns various unholy behaviors. If members of the holy nation were allowed to act in those prohibited ways with impunity, the holiness of the nation would evaporate, and the purpose for which it was brought into being would be lost.

3. Based on the extraordinarily high burden for trying capital offenses, it was always known that the capital punishments prescribed were meant as a deterrent to the behavior. A person was meant to understand that the act would be worth the death penalty, even if the death penalty was not meted out by human hands.

I don't give a damn if you're "offended," because a lot of the Bible is just plain wrong: the writings of stone-age fanatics who occasionally got it right.

That's your view - so be it.

There's a reason the overwhelming majority of Jews abandoned orthodoxy, for the same reason the majority of Muslim and Christians aren't "fundamentalists": unwillingness to swallow ancient myths and "morals" whole.

Such smug self-righteousness. I'm sure you cherish the monopoly you believe you have on the truth. Perhaps one day your eyes will be opened. Btw, are you entirely sure that the majority of Muslims reject fundamentalism?

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

You see, that's actually my point here: you explain to me that there is a different interpretation of these events today -- and for the vast share of Christians, this is probably true, you get no argument from me.

That's not what you implied initially, but okay.

This is exactly my point, though: if you look at the naked text, then also in the Bible (a `peaceful' religion some would claim) there are plenty of atrocities.

Your view depends on how you understand the text, and obviously we have very different views in that regard.

And I agree that it is insufficient to point to passages in the bible to conclude whether or not Christianity is inherently violent or peaceful. However, the same is true of all other religions: any arguments based on `how violent the Koran is' and your (literal or not) interpretations of the text is equally invalid. It's not about the text, it's about how people behave today.

I think the problem is that you're comparing apples and oranges. You're apparently ignoring the arguments I've been making in trying to further the secular understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures. There is violence in both the Hebrew Scriptures (the Tanakh as Chuckit properly called it) and the Koran. But there is a world of difference between the manifestations and implications of the violence found in the respective texts. I have tried to point that out here by explaining the limitations on warfare in Judaism versus the unrestricted warfare of Islam, but not too many people seem to be recognizing those fine points.

Anyway, see you tomorrow night MacNN. Happy Chanukah; Shabbat Shalom.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Before, you were claiming that Arabs have never contributed anything to human society within the last 1400 years (`Too bad they(Muslims) havent added any value to that knowledge for 1400 odd years, while the rest of the world moved on, grew up, learned, discovered, etc....') and you have been proven wrong. In particular, you tried to challenge us by asking for specific examples for contributions to the arts.

You're trying to quote examples without understanding them properly, e. g. attributing the most significant advances in geometry (as a field of mathematics in the ancient times) to the Egyptians when it was actually the Greek. You also have the wrong idea about Western culture: even 1000 years ago, culture in Europe, compared to, say, the Chinese, was undeveloped in every respect. Western contributions came relatively late.

Ugh... i hate misquotes.

With arts, ok in 1400 years they managed to arrange tiles on a ceiling. yay!

As far as the origins of Geometry, Mathematics, etc... greeks, romans, etc.... my point is that it predated Islam. (How long has Chrisendom had the separation of Church and State ? 300-400 years ? And how long has Islam stifled growth ? 1400 years ? Ample time for change imo)

While i do acknowledge that there were some major mistakes done by the Church in terms of politics, sciences, etc..... at the very least we got the works of the Renaissance, DaVinci, Michelangelo, Rapahel, the Sistine Chapel, etc ......

Cya

[OreoCookie]

Misquotes? You wrote: `Too bad they(Muslims) havent added any value to that knowledge for 1400 odd years, while the rest of the world moved on, grew up, learned, discovered, etc....' And to call a problem that has puzzled mathematicians of the 20th and 21st century `just an arrangement of tiles' (Roger Penrose was awarded the prestigious Copley medal last year for, among other things, his work on Penrose tilings) just proves you're missing the point altogether. Or purposely ignoring it.

Your insistence that `Islam has stifled scientific growth for the last 1400 years' (i. e. since its inception) has already been proven to be wrong. How long do you keep rejecting reality and substituting it with your own?

All the accomplishments of the past don't change what's going on in the present. Then again, why should we single out several cultures that happen to share one religion: if you look at other former superpowers, say, China, you will also see that they have declined and stopped being at the forefront of scientific discoveries at one point. That they were easily defeated by the European colonial powers (Britain and France in this case) in the 19th century.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

That's not what you implied initially, but okay.

My intention was not to suggest that my understanding of the text is literal, but simply that if the quoted passage is taken literally, salvation of Christians hinges on a genocide. I've already said that I don't believe in this. My point was that even though very violent stories are part of the scripture, most Christians don't interpret it in this way. So when you take violent bits of, say, the Koran or Torah, and you merely interpret them literally, you will not necessarily reach the conclusion that other people will.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Your view depends on how you understand the text, and obviously we have very different views in that regard.

Not really: I don't have my own interpretation of this text, because I don't believe in it in the first place. I don't have the need to reconcile such a violent passage with my own spirituality. So in this sense, our views are different as you see the need to interpret this passage while I don't.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I think the problem is that you're comparing apples and oranges. You're apparently ignoring the arguments I've been making in trying to further the secular understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures. There is violence in both the Hebrew Scriptures (the Tanakh as Chuckit properly called it) and the Koran.

Just out of curiosity: what do you mean by `secular understanding' here? Knowing your background, I would assume you have an interpretation in line with your orthodox beliefs?

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

But there is a world of difference between the manifestations and implications of the violence found in the respective texts. I have tried to point that out here by explaining the limitations on warfare in Judaism versus the unrestricted warfare of Islam, but not too many people seem to be recognizing those fine points.

Again, in my opinion, it's not about the texts at all, it's about what people do.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Anyway, see you tomorrow night MacNN. Happy Chanukah; Shabbat Shalom.

Same to you!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Huh?!?

While I am definitely more of a New Testament kinda guy I thought I still knew the whole Bible fairly well. What story is there in the Old Testament that has a bunch of bears attacking someone?

II Kings 2:23-24

23And he goeth up thence to Beth-El, and he is going up in the way, and little youths have come out from the city, and scoff at him, and say to him, `Go up, bald-head! go up, bald-head!'

24And he looketh behind him, and seeth them, and declareth them vile in the name of Jehovah, and two bears come out of the forest, and rend of them forty and two lads.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Misquotes? You wrote: `Too bad they(Muslims) havent added any value to that knowledge for 1400 odd years, while the rest of the world moved on, grew up, learned, discovered, etc....' And to call a problem that has puzzled mathematicians of the 20th and 21st century `just an arrangement of tiles' (Roger Penrose was awarded the prestigious Copley medal last year for, among other things, his work on Penrose tilings) just proves you're missing the point altogether. Or purposely ignoring it.

Your insistence that `Islam has stifled scientific growth for the last 1400 years' (i. e. since its inception) has already been proven to be wrong. How long do you keep rejecting reality and substituting it with your own?

All the accomplishments of the past don't change what's going on in the present. Then again, why should we single out several cultures that happen to share one religion: if you look at other former superpowers, say, China, you will also see that they have declined and stopped being at the forefront of scientific discoveries at one point. That they were easily defeated by the European colonial powers (Britain and France in this case) in the 19th century.

I'm not aware of this 'Penrose' stuff, actually, cause when i look at around my house, i dont really see it's value. but thats just me. I'm not exactly sure how my view that Islam has stifled growth has been 'proved wrong', cause quite frankly, when i look at the most influential scientists in the past 2 millennia, none of them seem to have made their discoveries/inventions/breakthrough under muslim rule.....the stuff im referring to is...
electricity, light bulbs, plumbing, integrated circuits, internet, telephones, satellites, television, radio, space flight, telescopes, woman's lib, civil rights, cell phones, video games(technology), modern medicine, psychology, modern architecture, fashion, banking & finance, automobiles, etc...

You know, stuff like that, stuff that we all use in our everyday lives.

Also, just to clarify, i'm not criticizing a 'race' of people here (Arabs,etc) but rather the doctrine under which they(choose to) live. I'm sure that Muslims who find their way o the free world manage to make contributions just fine. It's great that they can have the "Penrose" tiling thing listed as one of their contributions, sadly, when i look around i dont see it's application anywhere in my life (technically or aesthetically). And if there are a few cases where they are examples, they're probably too few to even matter(to me), where as when it comes to the stuff i've mentioned above.... well i hope you get the idea.

I understand what you are trying to say here, and it is a bit premature of me to make a statement that nothing came out of the Islamic empire because as people, irrespective of governing doctrine, there will be 'new stuff' invented/discovered. What i am trying to get at is, when you look at the proportion of countries that were founded-under/influenced-by the different religious doctrines, a heck of a lot less has come from those under Islamic law. I brief overview of the world, you can easily see the contributions made by Protestants, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto, etc.... When it comes to Islam, well proportionally there's almost nothing. The very fundamentals are missing (free speech, civil rights, human rights, etc) imo.

[Chuckit]

You could equally well say, being a man, you don't see the value in women's lib, or, being a Wii player, you don't see the value in advancements to video game technology.

Whether or not the originated every aspect of the science, much of what we have came to us through scientists in the Islamic world. Do you think math is trivial?

[Hawkeye_a]

Nope math is extremely important, and i never implied otherwise. But i tend to credit the ancient indians, persians(prior to Islamic rule), babylonians(prior to Islamic rule), Egyptians(prior to islamic rule), greeks and romans the most for advances in Math. Sure you can add the 'Penrose' stuff as a contribution of Islamic states. But when you factor in the population size living under that rule, the geographic resources available for that empire, the 1400 years it's been dominant in that region, etc… i think it's relatively insignificant to the contributions and advancements made by others in any field of study.

Once again, please note that i am crediting the "same" group of people for their massive contributions to various fields of study, but it just so happens that those contributions were made prior to Islamic rule or more recently, by Muslims probably living outside the Islamic world. IMHO

Cheers

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Nope math is extremely important, and i never implied otherwise. But i tend to credit the ancient indians, persians(prior to Islamic rule), babylonians(prior to Islamic rule), Egyptians(prior to islamic rule), greeks and romans the most for advances in Math. Sure you can add the 'Penrose' stuff as a contribution of Islamic states. But when you factor in the population size living under that rule, the geographic resources available for that empire, the 1400 years it's been dominant in that region, etc…

And what would those contributions by Persians, Egyptians and Babylonians be?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

And what would those contributions by Persians, Egyptians and Babylonians be?

Agreed. All those empires made their contributions, as did Islam during it's so called' golden age'. And now that has faded into obscurity.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

And what would those contributions by Persians, Egyptians and Babylonians be?

Astrology?

[OreoCookie]

@Hawkeye
Now that you acknowledge the Golden Age: that lasted at least until the 12th, 13th century (scholars argue when it has actually ended), much later than your 1400 years threshold. Although I'm not sure why you say `it has faded into obscurity,' much of these teachings have been re-discovered during the Age of Enlightenment.

[mattyb]

Muslim televangelist takes his message to millions.