[daimoni]

.

[netgear]

The line of questioning was in response to someone saying that we had something to learn from Germany. I think it's the other way around considering it's barely 60 years since Germany's last outrageous adventure that was responsible for nearly 40,000,000 deaths in Europe.

We have been around as a unified nation since the late 1700s and have yet to pilfer, plunder, murder, or execute on the scale on which Germany has. I think it's Germany that needs to learn from us, not the other way around.

If we were the warmongering people that Germans have been then Germany right now likely would be the 55th state in the United States (along with every other country in Europe that wasn't under the Iron Curtain). You think the Germans would have handed back all the countries that we liberated?

If we were really the control freaks people make us out to be then right now half the world would be part of the United States and the rest would be part of the USSR.

Any German is hardly in a position to lecuture anyone about peace, stability, and doing the right thing.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by netgear:
Any German is hardly in a position to lecuture anyone about peace, stability, and doing the right thing.

ahhh.. but supposedly Americans ARE, right?

[osiris]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
ahhh.. but supposedly Americans ARE, right?

Yeah, don't you remember? God said so. At least God told Bush that, then Bush told us.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by netgear:
The line of questioning was in response to someone saying that we had something to learn from Germany. I think it's the other way around considering it's barely 60 years since Germany's last outrageous adventure that was responsible for nearly 40,000,000 deaths in Europe.

We have been around as a unified nation since the late 1700s and have yet to pilfer, plunder, murder, or execute on the scale on which Germany has. I think it's Germany that needs to learn from us, not the other way around.

If we were the warmongering people that Germans have been then Germany right now likely would be the 55th state in the United States (along with every other country in Europe that wasn't under the Iron Curtain). You think the Germans would have handed back all the countries that we liberated?

If we were really the control freaks people make us out to be then right now half the world would be part of the United States and the rest would be part of the USSR.

Any German is hardly in a position to lecuture anyone about peace, stability, and doing the right thing.

'Goodness' isn't the same thing as 'not-as-badness'. And we do have something to learn from Germany. Everyone does. The lesson is that we have to pay attention to what is going on around us because it's a lot easier than we want to believe for horrible things to happen. Even if there are 'laws' and 'safeguards' against it. This is just as true in modern America, as it was in post-WWI Germany. It's not a problem that can be solved, through legislation or any other means. It's a problem that can merely be avoided through vigilance and care.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The German authorities once again release somebody they consider to be a dangerous threat to their country, and to their "allies,'" but it's America's fault.

And I guess America would also be wrong to screen visitors at our borders too.

This is exactly why you don't fight a war as a law enforcement problem. The tools are inadequate and the enemy uses that against you.

First of all, there is the Strafprozessordnung that determines what evidence can be used which cannot. Indeed, the German secret service has received the information that the prosecution has asked for, but not the prosecution. So if the Americans were to make sure that Motassadeq would remain behind bars, they could have turned over the evidence.

The available evidence was called "sufficient" by a spokesperson of the White House (White House I think), but clearly, the court saw itself forced to rule otherwise.

Terrorism is a crime, too. It needn't be singled out, although each time, Germany had a problem with terrorism (RAF era), there were calls for such a thing. Fortunately, this hasn't happened.

Just on a sidenote, Rechtsstaatlichkeit differs from due process according to some authors. Rechtsstaatlichkeit is putting less emphasis on the formal proceedings, but rather stresses the result.

[netgear]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
'Goodness' isn't the same thing as 'not-as-badness'. And we do have something to learn from Germany. Everyone does. The lesson is that we have to pay attention to what is going on around us because it's a lot easier than we want to believe for horrible things to happen. Even if there are 'laws' and 'safeguards' against it. This is just as true in modern America, as it was in post-WWI Germany. It's not a problem that can be solved, through legislation or any other means. It's a problem that can merely be avoided through vigilance and care.

But we are hardly in the same situation since we matured much earlier than Germany did (and has yet to do). Our Constitution prevents the rise of totalitarianism that took place in Germany and the fact that we have the right to bear arms gives us a rather large civilian army to keep the main government in check. You'll never see the like of a Hitler or Kaiser here because we peacefully replace our leaders and have for well over 200 years.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Just on a sidenote, Rechtsstaatlichkeit differs from due process according to some authors. Rechtsstaatlichkeit is putting less emphasis on the formal proceedings, but rather stresses the result.

Stressing the result, I'd say it was pretty bad in this case. But that's your problem.

[itai195]

Eh? Didn't the Nazis come to power legally through Germany's electoral process?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

The lesson we should all take from Germany, is how many people left to their own devices will sit on their duffs and let a disaster like the Third Reich storm and brew until it�s ravishing the entire globe (exactly what most of the world did) and how some rather than fight it will try to appease and deny its threat (What most of the world did) - and how even 60 years after the fact, many will STILL not understand it, as evidenced by the fact that they will routinely mount ridiculous pretenses that situations and politicians they disagree with that don�t even come CLOSE to comparison in any way shape nor form, are just as bad or worse.

[itai195]

Crash, meet our friend, the period. Period, meet Crash.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by netgear:
Any German is hardly in a position to lecuture anyone about peace, stability, and doing the right thing.

This will be my last response to your drivel:

I am, first and foremost, a human being.

You deem people fit or unfit to make ethical judgements based upon where they live?

You know nothing about me or my history.

I don't think you, as a person, are in any position to judge my fitness or unfitness to make ethical judgements.

And I really couldn't care less about where you happen to live.

-s*

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by netgear:
But we are hardly in the same situation since we matured much earlier than Germany did (and has yet to do). Our Constitution prevents the rise of totalitarianism that took place in Germany and the fact that we have the right to bear arms gives us a rather large civilian army to keep the main government in check. You'll never see the like of a Hitler or Kaiser here because we peacefully replace our leaders and have for well over 200 years.

And yet despite our constitution, we do not have all the rights that it guarantees us. We do not have freedom of speech. We do not have the freedom to bear arms free from the infringement of the government. We are not 'secure in [our] persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures'. We are not free from being 'deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor [from having] private property be taken for public use, without just compensation'. And we are not free from excessive bail, excessive fines, and cruel and unusual punishments.

And, in recent years, we have seen these rights further eroded. We have seen the US start to slip down the path that so many nations before us have. Hopefully we will pull back, but it is not guaranteed. Our constitution is not without its faults, and it is not impervious to attack. It can be twisted to fit someone agenda, and it can be circumvented. We are susceptible to the same risks as all other nations, whether we want to believe it or not. I don't want to come across as some loony conspiracy theorist who sees these threats at every turn. I do believe that the US will manage to avoid these threats and that we will continue to be a free people for quite a while. But it will avoid them because the American people will prevent the country from falling to them, not because our government is magically impervious to them. Eventually something will go wrong, and the US will lose those things that makes it special. It may be a very long way in the future, but it will happen. And the more we allow ourselves to think we are safe from the dangers that 'lesser' nations have succumbed to, the closer we will be to succumbing to those very same dangers.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by osiris:
Yeah, don't you remember? God said so. At least God told Bush that, then Bush told us.

oh, right. Sorry.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
The lesson we should all take from Germany, is how many people left to their own devices will sit on their duffs and let a disaster like the Third Reich storm and brew until it�s ravishing the entire globe (exactly what most of the world did) and how some rather than fight it will try to appease and deny its threat (What most of the world did) - and how even 60 years after the fact, many will STILL not understand it, as evidenced by the fact that they will routinely mount ridiculous pretenses that situations and politicians they disagree with that don�t even come CLOSE to comparison in any way shape nor form, are just as bad or worse.

Oh, don't worry, you are lucky enough to be sitting on your duff during a similar time.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by itai195:
Eh? Didn't the Nazis come to power legally through Germany's electoral process?

Yes.

Hitler was democratically elected chancellor in 1933.

He used a series of events, most notably the fire in the Reichstag, to declare a state of emergency, subsequently enacting "patriotic" legislature and eradicating citizens' rights.

The German Constitution very likely did not contain provisions for an autocratic dictator when it took effect after WWI.

These things happen when citizens don't remain vigilant and critical, and fall for populist demagogues.



-s*

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Oh, don't worry, you are lucky enough to be sitting on your duff during a similar time.

And speaking of one who: "routinely mounts ridiculous pretenses that situations and politicians they disagree with that don�t even come CLOSE to comparison in any way shape nor form, are just as bad or worse."

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by itai195:
Crash, meet our friend, the period. Period, meet Crash.

It's run-on sentence Friday, therefore I refuse to let periods slow me down!

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
The lesson we should all take from Germany, is how many people left to their own devices will sit on their duffs and let a disaster like the Third Reich storm and brew until it�s ravishing the entire globe (exactly what most of the world did) and how some rather than fight it will try to appease and deny its threat (What most of the world did) - and how even 60 years after the fact, many will STILL not understand it, as evidenced by the fact that they will routinely mount ridiculous pretenses that situations and politicians they disagree with that don�t even come CLOSE to comparison in any way shape nor form, are just as bad or worse.

Perhaps a more pertinent study for all of us, considering the current sorry state of affairs in the world, is to have everyone go back and review how the Third Reich came into being through the slow and insidious erosion of civil rights, exploitation of patriotism, augmentation of nationalistic, racial and religious bigotries - the scapegoating, fearmongering, intimidation and listing-making.

Let's go back and look at that.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

...and another one!

[netgear]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
This will be my last response to your drivel:

I am, first and foremost, a human being.

You deem people fit or unfit to make ethical judgements based upon where they live?

You know nothing about me or my history.

I don't think you, as a person, are in any position to judge my fitness or unfitness to make ethical judgements.

And I really couldn't care less about where you happen to live.

-s*

But you pretend to do? See, that's the bigger problem.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
...and another one!

Don't you think it would be better to be on the safe side and make sure that these 'ridiculous pretenses' actually are ridiculous pretenses instead of just dismissing them out of hand? Prove us wrong. Please. Nothing would make us happier.

[netgear]

Perhaps a more pertinent study for all of us, considering the current sorry state of affairs in the world, is to have everyone go back and review how the Third Reich came into being through the slow and insidious erosion of civil rights, exploitation of patriotism, augmentation of nationalistic, racial and religious bigotries - the scapegoating, fearmongering, intimidation and listing-making.

Slow and insidious? My God, it was spelled out for everyone.

It was due to inaction by pacifists and appeasers that Hilter was able to accomplish what he did. The same kind of people who likely would try reasoning with a criminal instead of taking him out in the first place, thus, preventing more people from becoming victims also.

The world's graveyards are full of people who are the victims of inaction. Germany put 40,000,000 there alone.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
And speaking of one who: "routinely mounts ridiculous pretenses that situations and politicians they disagree with that don�t even come CLOSE to comparison in any way shape nor form, are just as bad or worse."

err....I'm saying you are living through a similar time. Indeed you are.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

You've been proven wrong numerous times before.

You merely prove my point by even trying to mount yet another rediculous comparison argument that your hatred of Bush makes anything going on now comparable to the reality (which you folks keep demonstrating by your own dumb comparisons that you don't have any real understanding of) of Nazi Germany.

But by all means, keep making rediculous comparisons until you think by floating them enough times you'll suddenly be right!

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
You've been proven wrong numerous times before.

You merely prove my point by even trying to mount yet another rediculous comparison argument that your hatred of Bush makes anything going on now comparable to the reality (which you folks keep demonstrating by your own dumb comparisons that you don't have any real understanding of) of Nazi Germany.

But by all means, keep making rediculous comparisons until you think by floating them enough times you'll suddenly be right!

LOL!

okeydoke.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by netgear:
Slow and insidious? My God, it was spelled out for everyone.

In 1933?

[itai195]

Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
Perhaps a more pertinent study for all of us, considering the current sorry state of affairs in the world, is to have everyone go back and review how the Third Reich came into being through the slow and insidious erosion of civil rights, exploitation of patriotism, augmentation of nationalistic, racial and religious bigotries - the scapegoating, fearmongering, intimidation and listing-making.

Let's go back and look at that.

Not to mention the historical context that set the wheels in motion -- a time of immense national crisis.

[itai195]

Originally posted by netgear:
Slow and insidious? My God, it was spelled out for everyone.

He was referring to Hitler's rise to power within Germany, not the warmongering that followed.

[Ayelbourne]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

"Surprise! We're repeating it with a regularity that borders on a death wish." - Alfred Bester

[netgear]

Originally posted by itai195:
He was referring to Hitler's rise to power within Germany, not the warmongering that followed.

What dictators have come to power that didn't have intentions on invading or plundering those around them?

The Germans are magnificently efficient to the point where they can't even think for themselves. Much like robots on an assembly line.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by netgear:
The Germans are magnificently efficient to the point where they can't even think for themselves. Much like robots on an assembly line.

"Wir sind die Roboterrrrrr..."

Imbecile.

[netgear]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
In 1933?

Yes, a few years earlier.

[itai195]

Originally posted by netgear:
What dictators have come to power that didn't have intentions on invading or plundering those around them?

The Germans are magnificently efficient to the point where they can't even think for themselves. Much like robots on an assembly line.

As already discussed -- Hitler came to power democratically and the process of forming a totalitarian state was incremental. You seem to be picking and choosing the bits of history you want to remember and replacing the others with hindsight.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by netgear:
What dictators have come to power that didn't have intentions on invading or plundering those around them?

The Germans are magnificently efficient to the point where they can't even think for themselves. Much like robots on an assembly line.

Hmmmmm....naw, too easy.

[netgear]

Originally posted by itai195:


As already discussed -- Hitler came to power democratically and the process of forming a totalitarian state was incremental. You seem to be picking and choosing the bits of history you want to remember and replacing the others with hindsight.

Incremental? It didn't take him 50 years to establish the worst regime in the history of mankind. Excuses, excuses, denial.

[itai195]

Originally posted by netgear:
Incremental? It didn't take him 50 years to establish the worst regime in the history of mankind. Excuses, excuses, denial.

Oh you're right, it only took a decade. Overnight, practically.

What reason would I have for making excuses for the Germans? Don't blame me because you chose to take Troll's bait and stroll down this path...

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by netgear:
Incremental? It didn't take him 50 years to establish the worst regime in the history of mankind. Excuses, excuses, denial.

I'm not sure "incremental" means "50 years".

again, you may want to look it up

[netgear]

Originally posted by itai195:
Oh you're right, it only took a decade. Overnight, practically.

What reason would I have for making excuses for the Germans? Don't blame me because you took Troll's bait and strolled down this path...

Were Hitler's plans not laid out well in Mein Kampf?

[netgear]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I'm not sure "incremental" means "50 years".

again, you may want to look it up

Hitler was elected in 1933 and by 1939 the world was at war.

That's not incremental. That's overnight.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by netgear:
Hitler was elected in 1933 and by 1939 the world was at war.

That's not incremental. That's overnight.

So if Bush was elected in 2000, we have until 2006 to convince you?

I swear, I don't understand a word you're saying.

[netgear]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
So if Bush was elected in 2000, we have until 2006 to convince you?

I swear, I don't understand a word you're saying.

No surprise. Maybe you can't understand standard English perhaps?

[nam_pog]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
So if Bush was elected in 2000, we have until 2006 to convince you?

I swear, I don't understand a word you're saying.

2008.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by netgear:
Massive war? When we start rounding up Iraqis, putting them in trains, and haul them off to the ovens then maybe, just maybe, you might be onto something. Vietnam was France's mess, you know, that lovely cowardly country that your "country" finally made peace with.

Perhaps we would like to stop you before there is a smoking gun. Once the ovens start it will already be too late. That's what premption is all about, right?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by nam_pog:
2008.

Read the last five posts again.

[itai195]

Originally posted by netgear:
Were Hitler's plans not laid out well in Mein Kampf?

You do realize that eight years passed between the first publishing of Mein Kampf and Hitler's election. Until 1932 or so, the book was largely ignored or laughed at. That's not incremental?

To be honest, I also don't think most people back then would have understood it.

[Ayelbourne]

As I suggested, it looks like this period definitely needs a review.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Perhaps we would like to stop you before there is a smoking gun. Once the ovens start it will already be too late. That's what premption is all about, right?

Yup. Just taking a page from the administration playbook here...

[netgear]

Originally posted by itai195:
You do realize that eight years passed between the first publishing of Mein Kampf and Hitler's election. Until 1932 or so, the book was largely ignored or laughed at. That's not incremental?

To be honest, I also don't think most people back then would have understood it.

No, it's not incremental.

[itai195]

Originally posted by netgear:
No, it's not incremental.

Then what is it?

I'm actually rather amazed that many people today haven't read the book. And the opinions/reactions of those who have vary widely. It's certainly a philosophical and emotional book more than a 'plan.'