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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Yet Another Israel Vs. Hamas Thread

Yet Another Israel Vs. Hamas Thread (Page 2)
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Kevin
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Jul 8, 2006, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
I don't agree with Israel's tactics, and am not convinced that the Israeli government sheds any tears for Palestinian civilian deaths that result from those tactics, but as long as Palestinian militants, who target Israeli civilians, hide amongst the Palestinian civilian population, it's difficult to argue that Israel is targeting Palestinian civilians.
And they are doing it on purpose so little apologists like von will say "LOOK AT THE EVIL JEWS!"
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 8, 2006, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
Hamas calls for genocide in their charter and in their declarations that they do not accept Israel as a state, but only allow for one state, not a two-state solution. We all know this means genocide. The PA, whether under Fatah or under Hamas agrees on pushing the Jews to their deaths in the sea.
You keep saying this but you still haven't provided any evidence for it. Any chance you could for once back up your own words with facts?
When Palestinians set off mines on the beach in Gaza, Israel took in the wounded to the hospital in Tel-Aviv. Israel cares for non-Israeli wounded.
That's a fekking lie and you know it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WaCJn4hdjc

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/20/israb13595.htm

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Kevin
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Jul 8, 2006, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
No, it cannot. It's disproportional use of force.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/29/isrlpa13662.htm
You don't go up to a man, slap him in the face then cry that he slaps you back harder.

A good way to NOT get slapped back harder is to not slap people in the face in the first place.

In other words von, The terrorists actions direct correlate to how they get treated.

You keep forgetting if the terrorists would stop, Israel would as well.

It's that simple.


But we know how you feel about the matter. No matter how many different faces you put on in here.

You already claimed certain Israeli members in here would "Get theirs'

You act like you don't side with their plan, but when backed in a corner the true von comes out.

You aren't fooling anyone anymore. And I am not sure you ever did. We just have proof now.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 8, 2006, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
That's the same argument turned around that Palestinians and their supporters use for attacking any Israeli- (almost) all Israelis served in the army at some point, therefore it must be a legitimate military attack to attack them wherever they may be, no matter how young or old.

What is different is that Palestinian children are taught that they should be martyrs, that it is a proud thing to be a human shield or bomber. Culture of death.

I linked to it earlier.
So you agree with that argument? Or do you only think that Israel has the right to do that?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Kevin
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Jul 8, 2006, 11:47 AM
 
von the Palistinians are the one that started this little rift. I think Israel should do anything within their means to get him back.

Again if the people didn't want this type of thing, they should not have elected a terrorists organization into office that would put them into such danger.

You reap what you sow.
     
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Jul 8, 2006, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
So lets just take three examples.

1. Sonic booming Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?

2. Taking out the only electric generator in Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?

3. Stop imports of food and medicine to Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?


Would be nice to see vmarks answer this as well.
Here are three answers.

1. The civilians being affected realize their suffering is due to the actions of the militants and turn them in to the legally elected Palestinian government so the legally elected Palestinian government can stop the militants from attacking Israel.

2. The civilians being affected realize their suffering is due to the actions of the militants and turn them in to the legally elected Palestinian government so the legally elected Palestinian government can stop the militants from attacking Israel.

3. The civilians being affected realize their suffering is due to the actions of the militants and turn them in to the legally elected Palestinian government so the legally elected Palestinian government can stop the militants from attacking Israel.


See how easy that is. If the Palestinian citizens really don't like what is happening then they can choose to betray the militants hiding in their midst or to continue suffering because the militants are hiding in their midst. But, I think honestly that the citizens of Gaza would rather suffer from sonic booms and loss of power than turn over those in their midst responsible for this happening to them.

It's the same thing I have always said to you, vW. At what point will the Palestinian citizens rise up and tell the Hamas leaders running the Palestinian Authority that the actions of the militant wing of Hamas are not acceptable. They had democratic elections so we know the Palestinian people can make their political voice heard. So, when do they rise up and say "not in MY name!!" to the Hamas militants who continue to attack Israel? When?
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von Wrangell
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Jul 8, 2006, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
Here are three answers.

1. The civilians being affected realize their suffering is due to the actions of the Zionists and turn them in to the legally elected Israeli government so the legally elected Israel government can stop the Zionists from attacking Palestine.

1. The civilians being affected realize their suffering is due to the actions of the Zionists and turn them in to the legally elected Israeli government so the legally elected Israel government can stop the Zionists from attacking Palestine.

1. The civilians being affected realize their suffering is due to the actions of the Zionists and turn them in to the legally elected Israeli government so the legally elected Israel government can stop the Zionists from attacking Palestine.

See how easy that is. If the Israeli citizens really don't like what is happening then they can choose to betray the Zionists openly dwelling in their midst or to continue suffering because the Zionists are openly dwelling in their midst. But, I think honestly that the citizens of Israel would rather suffer from suicide bombings and loss of security than turn over those in their midst responsible for this happening to them.

It's the same thing I have always said to you, dcmacdaddy. At what point will the Israeli citizens rise up and tell their Zionist leaders running Israeli politics that the actions of the Zionist wing of Israel are not acceptable. They had semi-democratic elections so we know the Israeli people can make their political voice heard. So, when do they rise up and say "not in MY name!!" to the Zionist extremists who continue to attack Palestine? When?
Fixed™

And see how far we can go with arguments like that?

Oh, and as for your answers.

Article 33 of the GC (which most if not all nations have signed and ratified) states:

No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Pillage is prohibited.

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.
So you are in fact defending a war crime. Congratulations. You've just lost all right to complain the next time terrorists strike at the US or your allies.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
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Jul 8, 2006, 01:06 PM
 
von nice dodge and spin there.

You seem to always attempt to dodge the very truths when people point them out to you.
     
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Jul 8, 2006, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Fixed™

And see how far we can go with arguments like that?

Oh, and as for your answers.

Article 33 of the GC (which most if not all nations have signed and ratified states:


So you are in fact defending a war crime. Congratulations. You've just lost all right to complain the next time terrorists strike at the US or your allies.
Are you trying to suggest the Israeli military are in fact militant Zionists? Because it is not individual Israeli citizens who are invading the Gaza Strip to retrieve a captured soldier, it is the Israeli military. So, do you think the entire Israeli army is comprised of militant Zionists acting on their own and not as a military force seeking to retrieve a comrade captured in battle?

If you want to draw that parallel that the IDF are all Zionists then we could assume as well that the militants launching rockets into Israel ARE in fact the formal military force of the Palestinian Authority and as such they are committing war crimes as well by hiding out amongst civilian populations.

See how easy that was.


vW, Hamas militants kidnapped an Israeli soldier and the legally elected Palestinain government did nothing to a) obtain his release from the militants nor b) transfer him from the possession of the militants to the possession of the government where he could be detained as a POW. They did nothing for a week before Israel invaded.


The Palestinian Authority can't both act like the former freedom-fighting/terrorist group it once was and as a soveriegn governing body. They have to choose what they want to be, and in this instance they failed miserably in making a choice. They had a chance to show the whole world that their belief in government and the rule of law trumps their belief in militancy by a) obtaining the release of the captured soldier from the militants or b) obtaining possession of him and treating him like a POW like any government would do. Instead, they did NOTHING.

Go back and read all my postings regarding the election of Hamas. I was one of the few advocating for giving them a chance to prove themselves. I was one of the few who suggested Hamas could be beneficial as a ruling body. I was one of the few who said "wait and see" before passing judgment on their ability to govern. Here was a chance for the Palestinain Authority to say "We are doing the right thing" by how they dealt with this captured soldier and the militants who kidnapped him. The legally elected Palestian government did NOTHING to show the world that they can function better as a government than as a militant group. Nothing! And that is very disappointing to me.

I really hoped that the Palestinian people knew something we didn't about Hamas when they elected them to power. I really hoped they knew that once elected to power Hamas would function better as a governing body than as a militant group. But, that is not to be the case. So, it would seem that either the Palestinian people were fooled by the Hamas political wing as they were running for election or the Palestinian people willfully elected to office a group they knew would perpetuate terrorist activities even while acting as a sovereign government. I would still like to think the Palestinian people want peace over violence but I find it much harder to believe that when they are not out in the streets marching in protest of the actions of the militant wing of Hamas, when they are not out in the street renouncing their government's inability to control the militant wing of Hamas. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt but you've got to show me where/how everyday Palestinians are renouncing the actions of the Hamas militant wing (in this particualr instance and in general).
( Last edited by dcmacdaddy; Jul 8, 2006 at 01:29 PM. )
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von Wrangell
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Jul 8, 2006, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
Are you trying to suggest the Israeli military are in fact militant Zionists? Because it is not individual Israeli citizens who are invading the Gaza Strip to retrieve a captured soldier, it is the Israeli military. So, do you think the entire Israeli army is comprised of militant Zionists acting on their own and not as a military force seeking to retrieve a comrade captured in battle?
No one is forced to serve in the military. If you don't agree with the aggressive policy Israel follows you can simply deny serving in the military. So yes, everyone serving in the IOF is in fact a militant Zionist. They get their orders from above and as such are no different from any other militant organisation.
If you want to draw that parallel that the IDF are all Zionists then we could assume as well that the militants launching rockets into Israel ARE in fact the formal military force of the Palestinian Authority and as such they are committing war crimes as well by hiding out amongst civilian populations.
Agreed.
vW, Hamas militants kidnapped an Israeli soldier and the legally elected Palestinain government did nothing to a) obtain his release from the militants nor b) transfer him from the possession of the militants to the possession of the government where he could be detained as a POW. They did nothing for a week before Israel invaded.
No, Hamas did not capture the soldier. Three groups were responsible for that and one of them is linked to Hamas. The problem is that it seems like they are following orders from a former Hamas member in exile who does not follow what the elected Hamas officials say. That means they are in fact a rogue organisation with no official links to Hamas.

And soldiers aren't kidnapped in a time of war. They are captured.

Do you really expect a newly born government who is still trying to put together any working security apparatus can find the soldier before the very powerful IOF? Please don't tell me you think so.

Hamas has repeatedly asked those who hold him to treat him humanely and with respect. And so far that seems to be the case.

And if they knew where he is why should they hold him at some place where Israel would know where he is? We all know what that would mean. Israel has repeatedly attacked prisons to get persons already held by the Palestinians. So why should they let Israel know where he is? There is only one party that should get to know where he is and I'm disappointed that hasn't been done yet (it's either because the PA doesn't know where he is or because they don't think it's right, you decide). Those who hold him captive should let the IRC know about his whereabouts so they can monitor his treatment. (which ironically would be more than the US does regarding their prisoners)
The Palestinian Authority can't both act like the former freedom-fighting/terrorist group it once was and as a soveriegn governing body. They have to choose what they want to be, and in this instance they failed miserably in making a choice. They had a chance to show the whole world that their belief in government and the rule of law trumps their belief in militancy by a) obtaining the release of the captured soldier from the militants or b) obtaining possession of him and treating him like a POW like any military would do. Instead, they did NOTHING.
They have already chosen but aren't allowed to be a sovereign governing body. You know this just as well as I do. They haven't had the chance to run Palestine as an independent nation and probably never will.
Go back and read all my postings regarding the election of Hamas. I was one of the few advocating for giving them a chance to prove themselves. I was one of the few who suggested Hamas could be beneficial as a ruling body. I was one of the few who said "wait and see" before passing judgment on their ability to govern. Here was a chance for the Palestinain Authority to say "We are doing the right thing" by how they dealt with this captured soldier and the militants who kidnapped him. The legally elected Palestian government did NOTHING to show the world that they can function better as a government than as a militant group. Nothing! And that is very disappointing to me.
Perhaps I'm just willing to give them more time than you. I wanted to see how they'd react to this. Unfortunately they didn't get the chance to do anything because Israel reacted almost immediately.
I really hoped that the Palestinian people knew something we didn't about Hamas when they elected them to power. I really hoped they knew that once elected to power Hamas would function better as a governing body than as a militant group. But, that is not to be the case. So, it would seem that either the Palestinian people were fooled by the Hamas political wing as they were running for election or the Palestinian people willfully elected to office a group they knew would perpetuate terrorist activities even while acting as a sovereign government. I would still like to think the Palestinian people want peace over violence but I find it much harder to believe that when they are not out in the streets marching in protest of the actions of the militant wing of Hamas, when they are not out in the street renouncing their government's inability to control the militant wing of Hamas. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt but you've got to show me where/how everyday Palestinians are renouncing the actions of the Hamas militant wing (in this particualr instance and in general).
Both sides need to take steps towards peace. Not just one side. You can't expect a people who have been living under occupation and humiliation for over 50 years to all of a sudden decide that a non-violent solution is the best way. And you can't judge a whole population because a few are (and always will be) committing acts of terror.

Like I've always said, there is only one solution to this conflict and that is for the West to separate the two. But unfortunately that won't happen so we'll have innocent people on both sides who will suffer. And we'll have criminals on both sides committing war crimes without anyone dealing with them.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
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Jul 8, 2006, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
So yes, everyone serving in the IOF is in fact a militant Zionist.

     
vmarks
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Jul 8, 2006, 07:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
No one is forced to serve in the military. If you don't agree with the aggressive policy Israel follows you can simply deny serving in the military. So yes, everyone serving in the IOF is in fact a militant Zionist. They get their orders from above and as such are no different from any other militant organisation.
You, sir, are incorrect. Either you do not know you are wrong, or you are a liar.


in part from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription#Israel :

Israel has mandatory military service for both Jewish men and women. All Israeli Jews are conscripted, except Haredim, who can choose to serve but mostly do not. Israeli Arabs are exempt from service, although they can volunteer and some communities such as the Druze, Bedouin, and Circassians do serve.

Young women can generally opt not to serve if they are married, pregnant, or otherwise — Israel is generally very lenient with Israeli women when it comes to the draft. However, most that can, do serve out of patriotism.

Typically, men serve for 36 months, women serve for 24 months.

There are limited number of refuseniks who resist military service in general, or who refuse to serve in the West Bank. Some of them serve short prison terms as a result (no more than a few months).

But their lives are marked forever- in the US, when you apply for a job, where you went to school matters. In Israel, it is where and with what unit you served, in my experience.

In addition, men are liable for up to one month per year of reserve duty (miluim) until they are fifty years old. Women are liable for it until they are twenty-four years old, married, or pregnant.

So you serve, or you're extremely religious and exempt, or you resist, and go to jail.

Don't tell me it's optional. You know better.

No, Hamas did not capture the soldier. Three groups were responsible for that and one of them is linked to Hamas. The problem is that it seems like they are following orders from a former Hamas member in exile who does not follow what the elected Hamas officials say. That means they are in fact a rogue organisation with no official links to Hamas.
Where did you get this from? This is nonsense. They are one group, they are following Hamas leaders directions to hold him until their demands are met.
And soldiers aren't kidnapped in a time of war. They are captured.
Nonsense. Capture would mean held responsibly in accordance with international humanitarian law. It might even mean a visit from the International Red Cross to ensure his safety and health.

Instead, Hamas declares he is being held "In accordance with Islamic law."
Do you really expect a newly born government who is still trying to put together any working security apparatus can find the soldier before the very powerful IOF? Please don't tell me you think so.

Hamas has repeatedly asked those who hold him to treat him humanely and with respect. And so far that seems to be the case.
How would you know? There have been no pictures, no Red Cross inspections, no evidence at all.
They have already chosen but aren't allowed to be a sovereign governing body. You know this just as well as I do. They haven't had the chance to run Palestine as an independent nation and probably never will.
So that evacuation of Gaza, that painful pullout and abandoning of communities, resources, greenhouses, was for nothing? I'm sorry, but it established a de facto sovereign Palestinian state.

And what have they done with it? They looted and destroyed the greenhouses, and have used the former Israeli communities as the launching ground for rockets fired on Israel.
     
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Jul 8, 2006, 07:57 PM
 
Not kidnapped? AAAHAHAHAHA!
It was terrorists and NOT soilders who kidnapped them.
Good God. It't too easy.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 9, 2006, 08:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
You, sir, are incorrect. Either you do not know you are wrong, or you are a liar.
But still you say this:
So you serve, or you're extremely religious and exempt, or you resist, and go to jail.
You admit that you don't have to serve in the military if you don't want to. Yet you say I'm wrong.
Where did you get this from? This is nonsense. They are one group, they are following Hamas leaders directions to hold him until their demands are met.
Nonsense?

The flier, distributed to news organizations and passed out on the streets of Gaza City, came from Izzedine al Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas; the Popular Resistance Committees, an umbrella group that includes militants from Fatah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas; and a previously unknown group calling itself the Army of Islam.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...ier/index.html
So it's more than one group. And one of them is following a former Hamas leader in exile in Syria. Except that leader does no longer follow what the elected Hamas officials say.
Nonsense. Capture would mean held responsibly in accordance with international humanitarian law. It might even mean a visit from the International Red Cross to ensure his safety and health.

Instead, Hamas declares he is being held "In accordance with Islamic law."
Him being held "in accordance to Islamic" laws means that he should be getting better treatment than the GC says he should. And yes, soldiers are captured in a war. Not kidnapped.

(although I don't like them trying to use him as a bargaining tool to release the "prisoners" Israel holds. It's wrong)
How would you know? There have been no pictures, no Red Cross inspections, no evidence at all.
Israel continues to say that their intel suggests he is alive and has gotten treatment for his initial wounds. The PA says the same. When both sides agree on something it's likely to be true.
So that evacuation of Gaza, that painful pullout and abandoning of communities, resources, greenhouses, was for nothing? I'm sorry, but it established a de facto sovereign Palestinian state.

And what have they done with it? They looted and destroyed the greenhouses, and have used the former Israeli communities as the launching ground for rockets fired on Israel.
Not even close. Israel controls their borders, the airspace, the coast, what goods are allowed into Gaza etc etc etc.

They might have more control over Gaza than before but this still doesn't make it a "de facto sovereign Palestinian state".

And answer this question please.

You've repeatedly stated that Gaza is the Palestinian state they always wanted. But you've completely ignored the West Bank. Does this mean that you think that Palestinians should only have the Gaza strip as their state and if so what should be done with the Palestinians in the West Bank?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
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Jul 9, 2006, 10:13 AM
 
I haven't said it's the Palestinian state 'THEY'VE ALWAYS WANTED.'

I have said it's the Palestinian state. The one they've wanted has been at the expense of all Israel. And whether or not they really want a state is questionable.

If they truly wanted a Palestinian state, they could have had the majority of all land in 37, and 47. If they wanted a Palestinian state, they could have had one in 2000 at Camp David. If they didn't like that offer, but really wanted a Palestinian state, they could have had one by 2004 -GUARANTEED- under the roadmap.

The difference is that in Israel's case, in the early days they were willing to settle for a small sliver of land. And had they never been attacked, that tiny sliver would be all we would see marked on the map today.

Palestinians want an all or nothing, and raise their children to believe that if even one inch of land they believe to have been theirs in the past is no longer theirs, that they must fight to the death to reclaim it. Even if it was never theirs, or has been centuries since it could be called theirs. Under that kind of thinking, Spain is going to be in real trouble.

Arabs living west of the Jordan river who wish to be Palestinians can move to Gaza. Or they can stay and become loyal Israelis. Just as Jews wishing to be Israelis fled other middle east countries to be free, and came to build the country and make it strong and productive. That's the sort of thing you do, if you really want to have a state.

What you and the Palestinians need to remember is that in all of history there has never been an independent Palestinian state with self-government. Not under the Romans, under the Ottomans, under the British. Today, with Israel, there is. So the whole notion that Israel is somehow the occupier and oppressor of all time, one of the greatest threats to peace today, does not jibe with reality.
     
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Jul 9, 2006, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
The difference is that in Israel's case, in the early days they were willing to settle for a small sliver of land. And had they never been attacked, that tiny sliver would be all we would see marked on the map today.
Really? Is that why the Zionist congress said no several times before finally accepting an offer?
Arabs living west of the Jordan river who wish to be Palestinians can move to Gaza.
Thanks for finally showing your true colours.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
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Jul 9, 2006, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
The flier, distributed to news organizations and passed out on the streets of Gaza City, came from Izzedine al Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas; the Popular Resistance Committees, an umbrella group that includes militants from Fatah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas; and a previously unknown group calling itself the Army of Islam.
The popular resistence committees is a thinly disguised Hamas front.
The Izzedine al-Qassam brigades are Hamas.

(remember when just a few posts ago you asked how I could say Hamas was launching rockets on Israel? They're Qassam rockets. Invented by Hamas. Fired by Hamas.)

The Army of Islam in Gaza is also Hamas. They're working in tight conjunction with the military of the elected government. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Abu Marzook in Damascus and Ismail Haniyeh in Gaza coordinate. It's not as if the political leadership in Syria is some rogue body of Hamas- they are the same political body. They both claim to not take part in planning the military's actions, a claim that doesn't really help their case since they support the military actions without reservation, saying that they all work for the same goal, the destruction of the Zionist entity, Israel.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060704/wl_nm/mideast_dc

"“Whether he will be killed or not killed, we will not disclose any information ... Discussion is closed,” said Islamic Army spokesman Abu al-Muthana.

But he later said: “We do not kill captives. Our Islam requires that we treat captives well and fairly.” He declined to say whether Shalit was alive or dead."

So we don't know whether Shalit is alive or dead.
If this post is in the Lounge forum, it is likely to be my own opinion, and not representative of the position of MacNN.com.
     
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Jul 9, 2006, 10:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Really? Is that why the Zionist congress said no several times before finally accepting an offer?

Thanks for finally showing your true colours.
If people want a state, they need to go and build it. Sitting put and continuing violence does not build a state. Which is why that, in conjunction with the large number of times they've rejected having a state, leads me to believe they don't really want one.

More important to them is destroying Israel and the Jews. They've said as much, and their actions back that up.
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Jul 9, 2006, 11:00 AM
 
Like Devils talking out both sides of their mouths.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 9, 2006, 11:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
If people want a state, they need to go and build it. Sitting put and continuing violence does not build a state. Which is why that, in conjunction with the large number of times they've rejected having a state, leads me to believe they don't really want one.

More important to them is destroying Israel and the Jews. They've said as much, and their actions back that up.
In throwing out the same old propaganda you forgot to answer my question.

You said that the Zionists were willing in the early days to accept a much smaller state than they have taken today. And used the argument that the Palestinians declined those offers.

I'll ask again,

Originally Posted by vmarks
The difference is that in Israel's case, in the early days they were willing to settle for a small sliver of land. And had they never been attacked, that tiny sliver would be all we would see marked on the map today.
Really? Is that why the Zionist congress said no several times before finally accepting an offer?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Busemann
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Jul 9, 2006, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
You admit that you don't have to serve in the military if you don't want to. Yet you say I'm wrong.
Well, it's hardly voluntary when you risk jail time if you don't serve.
     
vmarks
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Jul 9, 2006, 12:00 PM
 
If I added up all the times you've intentionally ignored my questions or requests and allotted them a minute each per occasion, I expect I'd have a few more weeks of my life back.

In answer to your question, the early Zionist congresses were much like any committee- before you can set the strategy to -attain- the goal, you have to -agree- on what the goal should be.

In 1903, the British discussed the possibility of establishing the Jewish state in Uganda. This was seriously considered. The delegates to the Congress agreed by 295 in favor, 178 against and 98 abstentions that a committee should be dispatched to examine the possibility of Jewish settlement in East Africa.

The 1905 Congress heard the report of the Commission that had been sent to East Africa which had concluded that “Uganda” was unsuitable for mass Jewish settlement and proceeded to vote against a national home anywhere except Palestine and its immediate vicinity.

In 1921 the Congress passed resolutions welcoming the decision of the principal Allied Powers to grant the mandate for Palestine to Britain and encouraged the ratification of the Mandate by the League of Nations. (remember, the Balfour Declaration had been issued by this time.)

It's about setting goals.

That was clear to the founder of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, when he declared from the start that the goal of Zionism was the establishment of a Jewish state; and it was clear to Ze'ev Jabotinsky when, feeling that the Zionist movement had lost sight of this goal, he introduced a motion at the Zionist Congress in Basel in 1931, affirming that the aim of Zionism was the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. When the congress refused to approve this motion, he climbed on a chair and, in view of the delegates, tore up his delegate's card, declaring that "this is no Zionist Congress."

Eleven years later, at a Zionist conference held at the Biltmore Hotel in New York in 1942, in the presence of Chaim Weizmann and David Ben-Gurion, the Zionist establishment put forth the demand for the establishment of a "Jewish Commonwealth" in Palestine. From there, the path to the fulfillment of this goal was difficult but straightforward.

What is the relevance of all this to Israel in 2006? The present Israeli government is led by Kadima, a party that declares that its goal is the establishment of a Palestinian state in Palestine.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 9, 2006, 12:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Busemann
Well, it's hardly voluntary when you risk jail time if you don't serve.
But you can still not join the military.

This is what I said:
No one is forced to serve in the military. If you don't agree with the aggressive policy Israel follows you can simply deny serving in the military.
Yes, you'll do time but if you think it's immoral what the IOF is doing a few months in jail isn't terrible.

So my point stands, no one is forced to serve in the military.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 9, 2006, 12:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
If I added up all the times you've intentionally ignored my questions or requests and allotted them a minute each per occasion, I expect I'd have a few more weeks of my life back.

In answer to your question, the early Zionist congresses were much like any committee- before you can set the strategy to -attain- the goal, you have to -agree- on what the goal should be.

In 1903, the British discussed the possibility of establishing the Jewish state in Uganda. This was seriously considered. The delegates to the Congress agreed by 295 in favor, 178 against and 98 abstentions that a committee should be dispatched to examine the possibility of Jewish settlement in East Africa.

The 1905 Congress heard the report of the Commission that had been sent to East Africa which had concluded that “Uganda” was unsuitable for mass Jewish settlement and proceeded to vote against a national home anywhere except Palestine and its immediate vicinity.

In 1921 the Congress passed resolutions welcoming the decision of the principal Allied Powers to grant the mandate for Palestine to Britain and encouraged the ratification of the Mandate by the League of Nations. (remember, the Balfour Declaration had been issued by this time.)

It's about setting goals.

That was clear to the founder of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, when he declared from the start that the goal of Zionism was the establishment of a Jewish state; and it was clear to Ze'ev Jabotinsky when, feeling that the Zionist movement had lost sight of this goal, he introduced a motion at the Zionist Congress in Basel in 1931, affirming that the aim of Zionism was the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. When the congress refused to approve this motion, he climbed on a chair and, in view of the delegates, tore up his delegate's card, declaring that "this is no Zionist Congress."

Eleven years later, at a Zionist conference held at the Biltmore Hotel in New York in 1942, in the presence of Chaim Weizmann and David Ben-Gurion, the Zionist establishment put forth the demand for the establishment of a "Jewish Commonwealth" in Palestine. From there, the path to the fulfillment of this goal was difficult but straightforward.
Good answer. You should be a politician.

Now, could you perhaps focus on why the Zionist congress denied a couple or several offers for a nation in Palestine before they finally settled for what later became Israel?
What is the relevance of all this to Israel in 2006? The present Israeli government is led by Kadima, a party that declares that its goal is the establishment of a Palestinian state in Palestine.
The relevance? Simply that you continuously try to paint the Zionists as harmless good people who just settled for anything they could get while the Evil Palestinians never accepted the Jews and wanted them all dead. That's basically the picture you are trying to portray.

Like I said, you should be a politician.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Busemann
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Jul 9, 2006, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
But you can still not join the military.

This is what I said:

Yes, you'll do time but if you think it's immoral what the IOF is doing a few months in jail isn't terrible.

So my point stands, no one is forced to serve in the military.
When you risk prison, then you are in reality forced. It's not like they would kill you for not serving.

A few months in jail is indeed terrible for people wanting, say, a good job in the future.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 9, 2006, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Busemann
When you risk prison, then you are in reality forced. It's not like they would kill you for not serving.

A few months in jail is indeed terrible for people wanting, say, a good job in the future.
Lose a good job in the future or commit war crimes? Easy choice for me.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Kevin
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Jul 9, 2006, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
So my point stands, no one is forced to serve in the military.
No, your point was thoroughly trounced.
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Lose a good job in the future or commit war crimes? Easy choice for me.
Hyperbole.

I wish you were as critical with the Palestinians as you are Israel.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 9, 2006, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin
I wish you were as critical with the Palestinians as you are Israel.
Kevin, one could say the inverse about you and vmarks; that it would nice if you were as critical of Israel as you are of Palestine. The reality is that in a debate, it isn't very fun or useful when everyone agrees.
     
vmarks
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Jul 9, 2006, 07:47 PM
 
Wiskedjak: go and use the search feature. I have been openly critical of Israel in these forums when Israel merited it.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 9, 2006, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
Wiskedjak: go and use the search feature. I have been openly critical of Israel in these forums when Israel merited it.
Perhaps. But there is an issue of perspective as to "merit". Obviously, you and Kevin feel that Palestine merits criticism when vW does not. Likewise, there are times when some of us feel Israel merits criticsm and you do not.

and, hence, all the debating.

(plus, what search criteria would you suggest I use to find your criticism of Israel?)
     
Shaddim
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Jul 11, 2006, 11:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Lose a good job in the future or commit war crimes? Easy choice for me.
( Last edited by Shaddim; Jul 11, 2006 at 11:17 AM. )
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Jul 11, 2006, 12:17 PM
 
Palestine recruits women bombers now.

With this mentality, the violence will never end.
     
Taliesin
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Jul 12, 2006, 09:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
What is different is that Palestinian children are taught that they should be martyrs, that it is a proud thing to be a human shield or bomber. Culture of death.

I linked to it earlier.
Actually, it has to be called "culture of afterlife", since these socalled "martyrs" are not doing it in order to die, but in order to live in eternal happiness in the afterlife, at least that's what they think, but it's of course very bad theology to conclude that suicide and murdering of innocent people would lead anywhere else than to hell...

But back on topic, now it seems like the Hezbollah has attacked Israel and kidnapped two israeli soldiers, and Israel seems to have crossed the border to Lebanon with groundforces:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm

Taliesin
     
 
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