[mdc]

Originally Posted by bballe336 

The translucent menu bar is also gross, did apple stop to think that maybe I want the menu bar to be a solid color so that it's less confusing and cluttered? At least I can change that one.

If the reports are correct that you can turn off the opacity on the menubar, then yeah. . . Apple did "stop top think that maybe [you] want the menu bar to be a solid color".

Originally Posted by bballe336 

Also getting rid of the brushed metal look for this unified thing is pretty ugly. The new finder is pretty lame too, especially if you aren't a fan of the itunes set up. I'm not much for the flat buttons and ugly itunes scroll bars.

The ugliness of it is personal preference, but the idea of a unified look to OS X is a smart decision. Personally, I am all for the new look and the unification of OS X. I've always been a fan of the new iTunes/iLife borders.

Originally Posted by bballe336 

I really hope apple gives you the option to use all the old style GUI looks, for me they would just be more functional.

I don't think that that is going to happen. It seems like it's unified for every window.

I wonder what Interface Builder's options look like now. Did the "has texture" checkbox go away?

By the way, add me as another user who has been around since the days of DOS, config.sys, and autoexec.bat files.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

How can you possibly know this having never used Jaguar?

People whine and complain that things will "hurt usability", but the fact is we won't know this until someone actually uses it and posts their impressions.

Frankly, I have a hard time believing that a translucent menu bar is going to hurt usability...

Some things are just inherently unusable. If I sent you a haxie to make all your windows 90% transparent, would you use it for a week before judging whether that helped or hindered your workflow? I wouldn't.

Also, all the reports of the new menubar basically seem to amount to, "Eh, well, I guess maybe I'll get used to it?" Which doesn't really speak strongly in its favor, although I guess maybe they will get used to it.

[analogika]

Actually, the first report I read about it was, "Eh, I was really skeptical at first, but they've done it in a way that's still excellently legible, and it really *does* HELP you focus on just the document window."

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It is true, I'm not so happy to attack Apple that I'll disregard any positive reports and just assume Apple ****ed up regardless.

Anyway, the point is, it's silly to go, "Oh, Apple, you should fix the Finder before you work on this other stuff" when Apple is saying, "Hey, we fixed the Finder!"

You might be right, but I'm not going to believe some guy in a forum that insists this is so without being able to prove him/herself, sorry.

And, regardless, it's about damn time! What has taken them all these years?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

How can you possibly know this having never used Jaguar?

People whine and complain that things will "hurt usability", but the fact is we won't know this until someone actually uses it and posts their impressions.

Frankly, I have a hard time believing that a translucent menu bar is going to hurt usability...

We won't actually know this until a variety of users of all sorts of computing backgrounds test this for us.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by bballe336 

I really find the new desktop to be garbage. Before the dock was a block with an actual top, this way I could line my application windows up with the top of the dock easily and neither would interfere with each other. The dock doesn't have a top now so I can't do that and it will look like crap. The translucent menu bar is also gross, did apple stop to think that maybe I want the menu bar to be a solid color so that it's less confusing and cluttered? At least I can change that one. Also getting rid of the brushed metal look for this unified thing is pretty ugly. The new finder is pretty lame too, especially if you aren't a fan of the itunes set up. I'm not much for the flat buttons and ugly itunes scroll bars.

I really hope apple gives you the option to use all the old style GUI looks, for me they would just be more functional.

Classic Mac user.

It's almost becoming comical how every time something new is released I have to wade through pages and pages of posts along the lines of:

"This thing is crap/unusable because it looks gross/I don't like the shadow/I don't like the theme/insert other personal cosmetic designer sensibilities here"

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but in the real world people use their computers for work as they were designed to be used - not simply stare at them and marvel how pretty their desktop looks.

Prettiness enhances user experience, granted, but you guys are absolutely OBSESSED with the aesthetics. How about some actual usability criticism rather than just the usual verdict on how pretty the new look is?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but in the real world people use their computers for work as they were designed to be used - not simply stare at them and marvel how pretty their desktop looks.

Dear sweet lord, get outside your Apple-hating Linux geek bubble for two seconds once in a while. Your job is not any more "the real world" than mine is.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Prettiness enhances user experience, granted, but you guys are absolutely OBSESSED with the aesthetics. How about some actual usability criticism rather than just the usual verdict on how pretty the new look is?

If you don't see how desktop clutter and difficulty of visual organization affects usability, that says more about your level of UI knowledge than it does about the validity of the criticism. (To be honest, I don't think the menu bar will actually disrupt the visual organization of the desktop, but it's a valid criticism on purely philosophical terms.)

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Dear sweet lord, get outside your Apple-hating Linux geek bubble for two ****ing seconds once in a while.

I'm not an Apple hater, quite the contrary. I used to be a big Apple fan boy like you appear to be now, but I'm done with being anybody's fan boy. They are just a company. It seems that you are the one with the consistent knee jerk reactionary tendencies to defend Apple, even before you know what you are defending.

If you don't see how desktop clutter and difficulty of visual organization affects usability, that says more about your level of UI knowledge than it does about the validity of the criticism. (To be honest, I don't think the menu bar will actually disrupt the visual organization of the desktop, but it's a valid criticism on purely philosophical terms.)

We are talking about usability? I thought we were just talking about what shadows/reflections look the nicest or something... That's what I was responding to, before your knee went off. Please, steer this conversation into usability, it would be a refreshing change of pace.

[bballe336]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Classic Mac user.

It's almost becoming comical how every time something new is released I have to wade through pages and pages of posts along the lines of:

"This thing is crap/unusable because it looks gross/I don't like the shadow/I don't like the theme/insert other personal cosmetic designer sensibilities here"

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but in the real world people use their computers for work as they were designed to be used - not simply stare at them and marvel how pretty their desktop looks.

Prettiness enhances user experience, granted, but you guys are absolutely OBSESSED with the aesthetics. How about some actual usability criticism rather than just the usual verdict on how pretty the new look is?

The aesthetics are over the top now. Before the GUI was simple enough to be elegant yet productive. Now it's just a bunch of stupid distractions. Apple is concentrating far too hard on trying to captivate an audience of idiots who like shiny crap and not concentrating enough on making the OS work better for users who actually use the systems for work. The new dock will get in the way of me using FCP, before it was great for switching through programs related to my editing, but now I know I will have to hide it while editing. It's not a huge deal but they have made the OS less professional, and for me that makes it less functional.

[besson3c]

Well, I do have a hard time seeing any usability justification for making the dock 3d like that... Seems purely cosmetic, unless Apple has some more 3D desktop concepts in store for us for the future in how we think of our desktop environments.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

How can you possibly know this having never used Jaguar?

People whine and complain that things will "hurt usability", but the fact is we won't know this until someone actually uses it and posts their impressions.

Frankly, I have a hard time believing that a translucent menu bar is going to hurt usability...

I assume you meant Leopard, not Jaguar?

Anybody who used old versions of Mac OS X knows about translucent menus: the menu bar itself was always solid, but the dropping menus were very translucent. Over time, Apple has scaled back the level of translucence. It looks pretty good now.

Actually, I downloaded MenuShade to experiment with the Leopard look. It's distracting, and it looks like a cheap gimmick. (And I downloaded the "green grass" desktop from somewhere. The green is kinda soothing.)

BTW, I kinda like the 3d Dock effect.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm not an Apple hater, quite the contrary.

That's why you complain when Apple violates imaginary Windows UI guidelines but attack anyone who complains when Apple's actual UI guidelines are violated? That's why you assume, when Apple touts nonblocking networking as one of Leopard's features, that Leopard does not feature nonblocking networking? That's why you're constantly flinging around the term "Mac user" as an insult? I'm not trying to be mean or whatever — you seriously don't seem to have one good thing to say about anything related to Apple, but plenty of bad things.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I used to be a big Apple fan boy like you appear to be now, but I'm done with being anybody's fan boy. They are just a company. It seems that you are the one with the consistent knee jerk reactionary tendencies to defend Apple, even before you know what you are defending.

Oh, blah blah blah. That's what all the Apple-bashers say. In actuality, I like Apple and think they generally make good products but recognize that they do sometimes go wrong. As I recall, I was one of the first ones to say "WTF?" during the keynote.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

We are talking about usability? I thought we were just talking about what shadows/reflections look the nicest or something... That's what I was responding to, before your knee went off. Please, steer this conversation into usability, it would be a refreshing change of pace.

Well, the post you were replying to was mostly about esthetics, but it also got into concerns about whether the more eye-candy-ful interface would make the desktop seem more cluttered. Several other people here have expressed similar concerns over whether a transparent menubar will take too much concentration to read and whether the constant eyecandy will distract from the actual content of the desktop.

[:dragonflypro:]

So… um… how about that sexy QuickLook icon…

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

That's why you complain when Apple violates imaginary Windows UI guidelines but attack anyone who complains when Apple's actual UI guidelines are violated? That's why you assume, when Apple touts nonblocking networking as one of Leopard's features, that Leopard does not feature nonblocking networking? That's why you're constantly flinging around the term "Mac user" as an insult? I'm not trying to be mean or whatever — you seriously don't seem to have one good thing to say about anything related to Apple, but plenty of bad things.

What are you talking about Chuckit? Are you okay?

I was saying some arguments in an article criticizing Safari 3 on Windows seemed valid. I cited the idea of violating Windows guidelines, if this is indeed true. I don't know if it is true, because I don't know what Windows UI guidelines are, and I'd be willing to bet that you don't either (and yes, they do exist, no matter how long you stick your fingers in your ears and cry "la la la"). It does seem to be true, because I've read several reports of people stating that Safari does not fit in well in Windows at all.

Non-blocking networking? Do you mean network requests that are not threaded properly? I have not read any Apple literature using this term, you are welcome to point it out though. Still, I'm still not terribly inclined to believe all of Apple's marketing literature at face value anyway, as perhaps you are... Sorry dude, until I can actually use this product, my complaints are valid, and the fact that a product on the horizon may fix this problem does not make up for the years of this being a unique problem to OS X.

I do have plenty of good things to say about Apple and I could list them if I had to, but I don't really feel the compelling need to come to this board simply to say "rah rah Apple, aren't them Apples great, I love my Apple!" There are good things and bad things about OS X, as there are in any OS. It is still my desktop OS of choice, or else I wouldn't be here.

Well, the post you were replying to was mostly about esthetics, but it also got into concerns about whether the more eye-candy-ful interface would make the desktop seem more cluttered. Several other people here have expressed similar concerns over whether a transparent menubar will take too much concentration to read and whether the constant eyecandy will distract from the actual content of the desktop.

What do you think?

Sorry, it is difficult to distinguish between comments related to aesthetics and usability in here, it has been for years.

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro: 

So… um… how about that sexy QuickLook icon…

I'm not feelin' it. Or the Parental Controls (proportions are strange, like the people are trying to fit in the same ring that appears in the Accessibility icon) or Spaces icons. Yeesh.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Frankly, I have a hard time believing that a translucent menu bar is going to hurt usability...

Originally Posted by besson3c 

We won't actually know this until a variety of users of all sorts of computing backgrounds test this for us.

Oh yes, please... let's have an in-depth discussion on the translucent menu bar.

That crucial *option* will surely be make-or-break for millions of Leopard buyers.

Turning it off isn't enough... the fact that it even exists will certainly sway many minds.

Now I used RULER Aero.guiKit (as well as other like CrystalClear-Lite.guiKit which is
totally transparent) with ShapeShifter... so I know how it feels. Turning it off was not
enough. I had to erase all those files from my computer so I wouldn't even *THINK*
about the effect.

I look forward to a FULL discussion of this dreaded translucent menu bar,
with feedback from everyone (new users... please JOIN us)!!!

Not enough can be said about this highly controversial issue!!!

THANKS.

[Peter]

^

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Usability is not about personal preference.

Sure it is. What I find useable you may not and vice versa.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Oh yes, please... let's have an in-depth discussion on the translucent menu bar.

That crucial *option* will surely be make-or-break for millions of Leopard buyers.

Turning it off isn't enough... the fact that it even exists will certainly sway many minds.

Now I used RULER Aero.guiKit (as well as other like CrystalClear-Lite.guiKit which is
totally transparent) with ShapeShifter... so I know how it feels. Turning it off was not
enough. I had to erase all those files from my computer so I wouldn't even *THINK*
about the effect.

I look forward to a FULL discussion of this dreaded translucent menu bar,
with feedback from everyone (new users... please JOIN us)!!!

Not enough can be said about this highly controversial issue!!!

THANKS.

Read the thread title. This IS a thread devoted to discussing "Leopard's Interface". There are plenty of other threads focusing on Leopard's other features. Don't want to talk about translucent menu bars? Find another thread to post in. I assume you have some control over which threads you choose to participate in...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

Sure it is. What I find useable you may not and vice versa.

True, but designing to textbook usability standards is generally a safe bet. Human computer interaction design is a field in and of itself that has been studied extensively.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro: 

So… um… how about that sexy QuickLook icon…

Wrong forum, this is the private argument forum, please don't post anything sesible in here.

[wispering]
Are you talking about the eye icon?
It looks just like the new Big Brother UK logo, very cool.[/wispering]

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by bballe336 

The aesthetics are over the top now. Before the GUI was simple enough to be elegant yet productive.

Before when? Surely you must talk about Platinum? The Leopard GUI is the most refined OS X GUI yet. No pinstripes, no garish colours, no mess with different themes everywhere.

There are really only three UI things I can think of that is added for pure aesthetics that adds nothing to usability:
1) Widget droplets
2) Translucent Menu Bar
3) Shiny 3D dock

Of these I think the dock is the least offensive ('course I'll have to try it out for myself first). Widget droplets at least distracts you from the widget loading (though I would prefer a progress indicator). Which leaves us with only one UI that actually demonstrably can detract (however slight) from general usability: the translucent menu-bar. And at least one report is adamant that it's optional (and if not from Apple, some 3rd party will surely come to the rescue).

Have you looked at Aero? It's all visual flare that REALLY detracts from usability: glassy window borders that makes titles unreadable, visually distracting "glare" that is static while the windows move around, Flip 3D etc. etc.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Which leaves us with only one UI that actually demonstrably can detract (however slight) from general usability: the translucent menu-bar.

Demonstrated by whom? Source? As far as I know, there have been NO first hand reports of the Leopard Preview that was released at the WWDC. So, it's purely speculative (by you and others) that the translucent menu bar "detracts" from usability. You (and others) are basing your opinions on SCREENSHOTS as far as I can tell.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

Demonstrated by whom? Source? As far as I know, there have been NO first hand reports of the Leopard Preview that was released at the WWDC. So, it's purely speculative (by you and others) that the translucent menu bar "detracts" from usability. You (and others) are basing your opinions on SCREENSHOTS as far as I can tell.

Uhm, no. As I said, usability is not based on personal preference. Readability is best when there is high contrast. Anything less than black and white is going to be worse than 100%. Add in transparency and texture and you will get less readability and as a result, less usability. This isn't rocket science, but it is science, and not opinion.

You don't even need to see a screenshot to determine that a solid background is better for text than a translucent one. Common sense should be able to deduct that for you.

Oh, and if you want research based sources, I shall refer you to:
Research based web design and usability guidelines - chapter 11: Text Appearance (10.97MB PDF)
by the U.S. department of health and human services
which states:

Guideline: When users are expected to rapidly read and understand prose text, use black text on a plain, high-contrast, non-patterned background.

Comments: Black text on a plain background elicited reliably faster reading performance than on a medium-textured background. When compared to reading light text on a dark background, people read black text on a white background up to thirty-two percent faster. In general, the greater the contrast between the text and background, the easier the text is to read.

Sources: Boyntoin and Bush, 1956; Bruce and Green, 1990; Cole and Jenkins, 1984; Evans, 1998; Goldsmith, 1987; Gould, et al., 1987a; Gould, et al., 1987b; Jenkins and Cole, 1982; Kosslyn, 1994; Muter and Maurutto, 1991; Muter, 1996; Scharff, Ahumada and Hill, 1999; Snyder, et al., 1990; Spencer, Reynolds and Coe, 1977a; Spencer, Reynolds and Coe, 1977b; Treisman, 1990; Williams, 2000.

Importance: 4/5
Strength of evidence: 5/5

[plastiqueusa]

erik, I don't see any difficult to comprehend prose in my menubar; there's no prose of any kind, actually.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

[Re: Usability a personal preference] Sure it is. What I find useable you may not and vice versa.

No. You're talking about taste.

Ergonomics and usability are actually a fairly well-documented *science*.

With enough training, a monkey will find Windows NT "useable". DOS was "useable", as is the bash command-line.

That is NOT what this discussion is about.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

Demonstrated by whom? Source? As far as I know, there have been NO first hand reports of the Leopard Preview that was released at the WWDC. So, it's purely speculative (by you and others) that the translucent menu bar "detracts" from usability. You (and others) are basing your opinions on SCREENSHOTS as far as I can tell.

Well, welcome to an alternate reality:

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...2007-thread/7/

Originally Posted by inkhead, MacRumors.com

A couple of notes from Moscone WWDC (woohoo!)

Menubar transparency can be turned off

However after trying it out, you never want to, it makes you more focused, and less distracted. I thought it was ugly, then tried it. It's actually very good for productivity.

[and further down]

transparent menu bar (optional), is EXCELLENT, you ONLY focus on your documents (and i thought i would hate it)

[OreoCookie]

@Erik
Yes, of course, high-contrast text is more legible. But only if you want the menu bar to be the focus of attention. In recent years, not just Apple (Aperture, FC, iApps, etc.), but also Adobe (with Lightroom) have been moving to low-contrast interfaces (HUDs, grey-on-grey, etc.) that distract less from the document (in case of images this has many advantages).

So the point of the translucent menu bar is to put more emphasis on the document (which remains `high-contrast') and less emphasis on the menu bar. If that's what they want to achieve, they have indeed succeeded. Of course, we can argue whether this decision to de-emphasize the menu bar was good and I think it boils down to personal preference. In much the same way some people don't like low-contrast UIs a la Lightroom/Aperture (personally, I wish there was a bit more contrast in them). But it is well-thought out and I do work well with Aperture as this decision also has its pay-offs.

On a personal note, I've seen Leopard yesterday and I have to tell you that the menu bar is far more legible than I initially thought. It's similar to my Adium window and I'm sure it'll work well with my backgrounds (low-contrast images).

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by plastiqueusa 

erik, I don't see any difficult to comprehend prose in my menubar; there's no prose of any kind, actually.

Don't be a moron, it's equally if not more applicable to navigational elements.

[- - e r i k - -]

@Oreo

I'm not arguing that there are not some thoughts behind it ala what you are saying with focus on the document and not the UI, but just the simple usability aspects of the changes themselves.

[Don Pickett]

Nerds!

[OreoCookie]

@Erik
Well, in an earlier post, you claimed that Apple had added the translucent menu bar as eye candy, and I don't think that's necessarily the case. I've actually seen it and you don't `notice' the translucency as much: the menu bar is where you expect it to be and it distracts less from your documents. So this change might have positive effects on the usability of the overall system.

[- - e r i k - -]

That could very well be. I need to see it for myself though. Muscle memory should probably annul most usability issues for experienced users like you and me anyway.

[cambro]

Originally Posted by ginoledesma 

Just saw the Leopard videos at Apple's website... One thing I'll have a hard time determining from the dock is which apps are currently running (the color effect is too subtle from casual glance). Not that I'll mind much since my dock is hidden all the time.

It might be nice if the icons of currently unopened applications were transparent like the menu bar and rest of the dock. Then, running apps would jump off the dock and distinguish themselves from the rest.

[SomeToast]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I've actually seen it and you don't `notice' the translucency as much: the menu bar is where you expect it to be and it distracts less from your documents.

You don't notice the translucency, but you certainly notice the underlying desktop.

I saw one desktop with a grassy background and a large white flower filling the center. Running apps (where you could only see the app and the menu) had a white band in the middle of the menu bar and dark green patches on either side exactly where the menus were, fighting with the black text.

Another desktop had a photo with sky at the top. With a running app, all you could see was the neon blue of the menu bar, standing out in stark contrast to the gray gradient windows of the OS.

Apple's site says that the transparent menu bar allows the desktop picture to "take center stage" (and don't get me started on the "active applications are even more distinct, casting deeper shadows" bit ). I don't see how a thin, glowing strip of my desktop picture is supposed to help me focus on my documents when I'm running actual applications, which is roughly 99% of the time.

Great that there's apparently a pref to turn it off, shame that "off" is not the default.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by SomeToast 

You don't notice the translucency, but you certainly notice the underlying desktop.

I saw one desktop with a grassy background and a large white flower filling the center. Running apps (where you could only see the app and the menu) had a white band in the middle of the menu bar and dark green patches on either side exactly where the menus were, fighting with the black text.

Since you are free to choose a background at will, I don't think this will be an issue. Again, I was positively surprised that it didn't just look good, but I found that it didn't really look as bad as I feared it would.

[dru]

I'm not worried about the menu bar. I'm concerned about the new folders. They don't have a strong outline and are rather muted. I like to change the background colors of different folders and I'm concerned those new folders are not going to look right. As it is, they don't seem to fit stylistically with the other icons in the system. The embossed badges are not going to be very readable when scaled.

I've found it impossible to find a good universal replacement for the Aqua folders. Most are either too glossy and saturated or too muted like the Leopard folders.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by SomeToast 

You don't notice the translucency, but you certainly notice the underlying desktop.

I saw one desktop with a grassy background and a large white flower filling the center. Running apps (where you could only see the app and the menu) had a white band in the middle of the menu bar and dark green patches on either side exactly where the menus were, fighting with the black text.

Another desktop had a photo with sky at the top. With a running app, all you could see was the neon blue of the menu bar, standing out in stark contrast to the gray gradient windows of the OS.

Apple's site says that the transparent menu bar allows the desktop picture to "take center stage" (and don't get me started on the "active applications are even more distinct, casting deeper shadows" bit ). I don't see how a thin, glowing strip of my desktop picture is supposed to help me focus on my documents when I'm running actual applications, which is roughly 99% of the time.

Great that there's apparently a pref to turn it off, shame that "off" is not the default.

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...2007-thread/7/

Originally Posted by inkhead, MacRumors.com

A couple of notes from Moscone WWDC (woohoo!)

Menubar transparency can be turned off

However after trying it out, you never want to, it makes you more focused, and less distracted. I thought it was ugly, then tried it. It's actually very good for productivity.

[and further down]

transparent menu bar (optional), is EXCELLENT, you ONLY focus on your documents (and i thought i would hate it)

[JKT]

Originally Posted by dru 

I'm not worried about the menu bar. I'm concerned about the new folders. They don't have a strong outline and are rather muted. I like to change the background colors of different folders and I'm concerned those new folders are not going to look right. As it is, they don't seem to fit stylistically with the other icons in the system. The embossed badges are not going to be very readable when scaled.

I've found it impossible to find a good universal replacement for the Aqua folders. Most are either too glossy and saturated or too muted like the Leopard folders.

Agree with you there - the new folder icons appear to be very drab and ugly. It is looking to me as though Leopard could well be the very first version of OS X where I am going to have to consider using an app to change the theme, just to get away from overwhelming blandness of it all. I already know that if it is anything like iTunes is at present, I'll hate the UI. If the icons look as boring in the flesh as they do in the screen shots, then its going to push me over the edge. Sigh.

[Hi I'm Ben]

I'm not sure if a single new GUI has ever come out from Apple that hasn't produced a thread of whiny Mac Users who cry and argue over the new look.

The finder, iTunes, Icons, Quicktime, Safari... the list goes on. You guys are such cry babies. I guess it would have made you totally stoked if Apple never changed any of the UI ever. That would be really cool. Not only that UI changes can be done as a migration process to a new idea they're not even releasing to you. You know Apple is always thinking ahead.

Even if Apple breaks UI rules, there own or universal ones, their OS and all the applications inside it look a lot more consistent than anyone else so move on with your lives already and get pumped for Leopard.

[kent m]

Two things I was hoping for in the new Finder (after of course being updated) was a tabbed Finder and an option to display and work with the file path. Instead I get a reflective dock and the Stacks concept resurrected from the early days of the apple system. I'm totally underwehlmed on this one. I was hoping for advanced features within the FInder, instead I get bits and bobbles to impress my grandma with.

Sorry, reflections is neat and gosh it's sometimes nice to see the file icons sliding by in pagination format, but I was hoping for more.

[SomeToast]

Originally Posted by Hi I'm Ben 

I'm not sure if a single new GUI has ever come out from Apple that hasn't produced a thread of whiny Mac Users who cry and argue over the new look.

When the system UI that most of us use on a daily basis changes, I think it's natural to discuss the merits of those changes. If that's considered being whiny, well... so be it.

In the case of the menu bar -- the universal constant across most Mac apps -- when the highest praise you hear are things like "it's not as bad as I thought it would be" (and more often along the lines of painting white bands in desktop pictures, finding prefs to disable, or even creating apps to put behind it), you have to be a little concerned about the "migration process to a new idea [Apple's] not even releasing to you".

[TETENAL]

The Tiger-Finder can show a Path pop-up menu when you customise the toolbar, and it is also "tabbed". It's just that the tabs are in a column on the left instead of a row at the top.

[Gamoe]

Originally Posted by CKr 

This change, on the other hand, seems elegant and purposeful. This really does make the desktop feel lightweight and clean. No huge window borders, no huge menubar; your workspace is your area. I really think Apple wants the user to feel uncluttered, and they actually do it unlike the other guys. I'm keeping an open mind knowing (or thinking) that Apple has an idea as to what they are doing. :-)

This is the problem. I don't care about things feeling "clean". I care about the Finder (and Mac OS in general) being functional. Eye candy is nice, but it's not a main "feature" in any sane person's mind for the main file management app.

Is your real desktop "tidy"? Mine isn't. That's because I'm constantly shifting papers and things around while getting my work done, and putting a paper down "near the corner of the desk next to the pencil sharpener" helps me remember where it is more quickly than a huge list of files (as in the file browser windows Apple has been pushing since 10.0).

Pictures are nice on the desktop, but it's a background! If I wanted to view photos I'd open up a slide show in iPhoto, not look at my desktop! The desktop needs to be a functional file management workspace, not some clean, tidy, elegant facsimile of the old desktop.

I also don't understand the translucent menu bar from a functional point of view. It only seems to make sense from an "artistic" point of view, which would be fine if it were solely a work for art, but it's supposed to be a functional, very often-used interface element.

And yes, I realize a lot of things are optional, but it's sad to see functionality take a back seat to eye candy, and it might not be long until these things are no longer merely optional. Also, I agree about the Finder-- I not only wanted a "new" Finder, but a better, "fixed" Finder, which I've yet to see in the Leopard previews.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by SomeToast 

When the system UI that most of us use on a daily basis changes, I think it's natural to discuss the merits of those changes. If that's considered being whiny, well... so be it.

In the case of the menu bar -- the universal constant across most Mac apps -- when the highest praise you hear are things like "it's not as bad as I thought it would be"

How about

Originally Posted by inkhead, see above

Menubar transparency can be turned off

However after trying it out, you never want to, it makes you more focused, and less distracted. I thought it was ugly, then tried it. It's actually very good for productivity.

[and further down]

transparent menu bar (optional), is EXCELLENT, you ONLY focus on your documents (and i thought i would hate it)

That's kind of the opposite of what you're claiming.

I suggest everybody quit whining about this until they've actually used it. THEN start hammering Apple if you really want it changed.

Or, just turn it the **** off.

[P]

Every Finder since System 6 or so lets you show the path to the current folder by command-clicking the folder name in the title bar.

[SomeToast]

Originally Posted by analogika 

That's kind of the opposite of what you're claiming.

Yeah, but I think that inkhead's high.  

And also in the minority.

[iz3r]

I know I am new, and very late in this conversation. But people like sleek and eye pleasing desktops, at least it appeals to the main stream.

But my main point here, this is OSX 10+, we own the computing world at most anything, and all features in 10.5 are changeable, so if you do not want transparency, just turn it off.

[msuper69]

Originally Posted by youngfool 

Hi All,

I'm a newbie here so bare with me.

...

I don't know you that well.

[kent m]

Originally Posted by P 

Every Finder since System 6 or so lets you show the path to the current folder by command-clicking the folder name in the title bar.

Yes, but showing it and having it as a string of text that can be cut and pasted is quite different. The only way to do this now is to keep the Terminal open or to use a CM add-on like 'Path To Clip'. I use this a ton at work and when I'm doing web dev, and I'd just like to have it available. It's a minor thing because you can get a sort of similar thing via the CM plug-in, I was just hoping it would be an option in the new Finder.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

and it is also "tabbed". It's just that the tabs are in a column on the left instead of a row at the top.

ish... I see what you mean, but that would sort of be like calling Bookmarks in Safari or other open windows 'tabs'. I'd just prefer to have actual tabs, & think it would really help to organize Finder browsing in the same way that actual tabs have in web browsers. Personally, I like to keep the Sidebar fairly static, keeping top level links to project directories and such in there, I don't like to keep changing it. Tabs are just a different level of 'throw away navigation'...