[aaroncsmith]

For those who say "Apple warned us that 10.0 was for early adopters only", I invite you to show us all a link to a document that states this. I have been looking, and I cannot find any reference to any such "early-adopter" warning. I think we may have imagined it because it seems so obvious in retrospect.

Here are a few links to get you started:
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001...1osxstore.html
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001...macosx_gm.html
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/jan/09macosx.html


Even the Public Beta release doesn't mention anything about "early adopters" :
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2000/sep/13macosx.html

I, too, remember Jobs mentioning early adopters at a keynote, but can we expect the average Joe to watch a postage-stamp-sized streaming keynote while at work in order to hear a caveat that no, in fact, they should NOT buy Aple's newest, latest, greatest Operating system Update? After all, they've been working on this update since 1996! How could it NOT be ready? Right?

In any case, the "early adopter" message clearly did not get through to the buying public.

And charging $20 for the update is a pretty low blow to those who already poneyed up $130 for the barely usable 10.0.x version. Saying "you should have known better" is beside the point, because as far as I can tell, there is no mention anywhere that 10.0 was unfinished in any way. Unless you watched the keynote, or prowl the MacNN forums, you COULD NOT have known better.

People have every right to be angry and frustrated at the way MacOS X's development and commercialisation was run. This is definitely APPLE'S problem, not ours.

Some "digital hub", huh?

-You have to choose from a "Apple approved" list of DV camcorders if you expect it to work properly.
-Same for CD burners.
-DVD was completely MIA for 6 months, and will still be in 10.1 for users with hardware decoding. (even though their machine is officially supported!)
-Almost no scanners have native support. (excluding VueScan, which does not work with my scanner)
-Digital image management is little more than an afterthought with "Image capture".
-There is no native support for the most popular web media formats (Windows Media, Real Media, DivX)
-There are no WebCam drivers for video conferencing.

These are all very much Apple's problems, because it will be Apple (not Adobe or Philips) that will be held back by these problems.

OS X is not a new beginning for many users. It is a last ditch solution before moving to Windows. Many Mac users have been hanging on to the platform purely on the promise that OS X was going to right everything that was wrong with the Classic OS.

So to get back on topic, I mostly feel let down that all of my digital devices do not work with my "Digital Hub". As usual, Apple has a good vision, but only Microsoft seems to be able to make it a reality.

[TC]

So to get back on topic, I mostly feel let down that all of my digital devices do not work with my "Digital Hub". As usual, Apple has a good vision, but only Microsoft seems to be able to make it a reality.

Wow, you really must come from another planet.
If this is how you feel then why not just sell your Mac and go and live in Windows world?

I use OS X 24/7 and it is a pleasure (TiBook 500MHz 512MB RAM), when 10.1 comes out and it gets faster it will be even more of a pleasure.

A couple of points about 10.0 not being ready for mainstream.
1. Does Apple advertise OS X?
2. Does Apple ship OS X as the main OS on its computers?

When Apple starts doing these things then we all know Apple thinks it is ready for the big time.

Hey, I guess you won�t be along for the ride as you will be enjoying the pleasures of Windows.

Just wanted to point out I have a PC, I use it for testing web sites I build (mainly ASP/database stuff) and every time I have to use it I feel so lucky knowing that I can get back to my mac.

Scott, your card is supported, but the drivers aren�t optimized. I can understand people with Beige G3s being annoyed about their floppy drives not working, but I don�t get your complaints.

[karbon]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>I didn't write OS X, I didn't ship it, I don't run Apple, I don't tell them what to support and who to **** over. It is NOT MY FAULT THAT APPLE ****ED ME OVER AND DIDN'T SHIP DRIVERS FOR MY COMPUTER.

And now I have to PAY to get what ****ing Apple should have shipped in the first place and didn't bother anyone wouldn't be there. This is MY FAULT?</STRONG>

Man you gotta calm down. First of all, Apple is STILL not shipping machines with Mac OS X set up as the default OS because they KNOW Mac OS X 10.0.4 is not feature complete and as good for the average Joe as OS 9 is. Did you really think Mac OS X 10.0 would function as smoothly as OS 9 does, which has been developed steadily through the last 20 years? Sounds pretty naive to me...

And what's really the problem here? Just use OS 9 for now and all your problems will be solved.

BTW, 10.1 may be a free download? Either way it'll still be available through Carracho and Hotline so it's really no problem getting it for free. You might argue that's not legal but I really don't think Apple would care as long as you own Mac OS X 10.0 ...

[edddeduck]

Think of this problem from the standpoint of a modem user....

You cannot download all the updates as it would take weeks so $20 or �15 sounds good to me.... Also you might realise with the massive changes under the hood a clean install is always better than a update so... I for one will buy the update CD just for this reason....

P.S. Scott I also have a imac at home but the box says runs on G3s upwards and it does.... So they didn't lie they just in the words of nixon "were economical with the truth" .

Still sucks though....

Edd

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by karbon:
<STRONG>

..
And what's really the problem here? Just use OS 9 for now and all your problems will be solved.

...</STRONG>

Oh I get it now. I didn't understand before. So the way it works is that I buy OS X, install it and then just use OS 9. Then when Apple get's it's act together and ships an OS people can use I buy OS X again (oops I mean pay to have it shipped to me) and then what do I do? Use OS X or use OS 9?

[pete]

Besson3c asked if I was new to the computer industry. I've been using computer for the past 10 years. But that's besides the point. The point is that of course Apple didn't advertize that macos x 10.0 was inadequate and lacking. that's how they duped us. The only people that discussed its many problems before its release were people on these kinds of sites who had obtained illegal builds. The average person WAS NOT AWARE of this fact. Apple advertised it the most advanced OS in the world. We know that was not true and although most companies do the same thing, that doesn't mean it's ethically defendable to offer an OS that simply doesn't work as advertized.

IF VERSION 10.0 WAS ACCEPTABLE, HOW COME APPLE IS NOW GOING TO OFFER A 400+ MB UPGRADE???? 400+MB!!!!! Because it's been totally redone! What we're going to get is what should have been done before. But who cares? What's done is done. The main point is that early adopters/Public Beta 1+2 users should not have to pay a dime for the upgrade. We should get it immediately for free. NO "SHIPPING AND HANDLING"!

Somebody also mentioned that we all knew that the same problems existed with 10.0 as with PB - then why did so many people buy 10.0? Because we thought it would be so much better....it wasn't THAT much better.

As Scott said, this is Apple's problem, not the consumer's. I know it might not be the best analogy, but imagine buying a new car and discovering that the power windows don't work and you need to turn the ignition key five times to get it going - Ford then tells you that there will be a fix within a few months and decides to charge you $1000 for it. There would be an outrage! The computer industry gets away with murder because there seem to be little consumer protection in the area. Companies blame each other for incompatibilites and the consumer is stuck in between. In this case, the solution is simple: Apple should offer free upgrades to 10.0 owners. Simple as that.

[iloveOSX]

use os9

sounds like that's what you need to do scot. (not saying this in a sarcastic way) but seriously there are some people x is not ready for. (final cut, dvd authoring) maybe you should stick with 9 and save us all more dicussion.

but please stop making broad strokes about OSX not being usable. you are just wrong on that count. it has been great for some of us.

10.1 is more than a bug fix. sorry you feel that's all it is.

[besson3c]

Pete: Apple has barely advertised OS X at all... You'd be surprised how many Mac users have no clue it exists.

Besides, it is still my contention that people don't upgrade until informed. This explains why there are many still using Win98 and 95, and many Mac users who are still not running 9 (let alone 9.2). They either couldn't be bothered, aren't aware of the upgrade existing, use whatever OS their machine came with as default, or don't feel they are informed enough to make a decision about such a purchase.

I think the same applies for OS X... the people who clunk down $100 for OS X are either geeks, or novice users who are amused at its appearance (and there is enough there in 10.0 to entertain novice users).

The only people who have been actually using 10.0 have been us geeks. Those novice users who bought 10.0 to amuse themselves can get new CDs for $20 - far easier than downloading and burning a CD.

My main point: I don't think people randomly upgrade based on how it looks on the box.

Scott: this is not meant as a personal challenge, but I'm sincerly curious as to what you would do if you were blessed with RagePro drivers tomorrow?

[Smircle]

Originally posted by pete:
Besson3c asked if I was new to the computer industry. I've been using computer for the past 10 years. But that's besides the point. The point is that of course Apple didn't advertize that macos x 10.0 was inadequate and lacking.

Maybe I am missing something, but 10.0.1 offers things never seen on a mac: memory protection, preemptive multitasking, some severely cool functions adopted from Unix/Linux.
Yes, it is slow, get over it. We ****ing know it by now. But it is also much more advanced than any version of MacOS before.

IF VERSION 10.0 WAS ACCEPTABLE, HOW COME APPLE IS NOW GOING TO OFFER A 400+ MB UPGRADE???? 400+MB!!!!! Because it's been totally redone!

Obviously you know nothing about software development. It is positively impossible to completely redo an OS in 6 month. It took Apple nearly 4 years to adapt OpenStep/BSD/Mach/MacOS to what it is now, not redoing everything.

If Apple just improved the compilers massively (which they probably did) they have to recompile the whole **** to see the improvements pay off. So without changing a single line outside the compilers they can end up with a 400MB update.

Plus they added the DVD framework, authoring support (those are additions you pay for in the MS world) and redid a lot inside the guts of the OS.

What we're going to get is what should have been done before. But who cares? What's done is done. The main point is that early adopters/Public Beta 1+2 users should not have to pay a dime for the upgrade. We should get it immediately for free. NO "SHIPPING AND HANDLING"!

I have seen 10.1 in action. In my eyes, the superior quality, features and speed justify the cost associated with updating. You may think different, but 10.1 is more than a bug-fix. It adds net value.

[ZO]

how can you "20$ is nothing and I'll pay for it" people say that?

dont you get it? nobody was warned that half the stuff didnt work... and now you have to pay MORE to make it work BETTER (not even well... nor 'perfectly')

Yes, the OS may WORK... but I want it to work WELL and with everything I have that used to work!

Do ALL of you accept mediocrity like this? Or are you all brainwashed to accept everything Apple throws at you? OS X was not complete when it shipped... the fact that they charde you even MORE to fix their errors is horrible.

PS Whoever said it was going to be 3CDs?

PPS And WHO IS THE MORON who is calculating 20$ PER BOX/UPDATE that has to cover salaries, etc? Apple could easily help feed the families of people at CD replication companies even at 3$/update. Yeesh.

[edddeduck]

mmm...

$20 Dollars.... I would pay $20 for a DVD player App..

I am getting one so to me $20 is not that bad we were not duped I expected and saw thanks to steve what type of speed and or things I was getting.

Also anyone have a PC with 95 on it according to microsoft there are/were NO updates for 95 but there was 95, 95a and 95b yet there was no updater..... I phoned up over a problem with a PC I was fixing and I asked could this be du to an older copy of 95 they said there is only one version of 95.....

So to be honest $20 is not much it's the price of a DVD in the UK or 4 Big King meals and with the massive increase of speed its worth it.

Also do as I do is a $20 price for a DVD App that speeds up my entire machine

[TC]

If Apple just improved the compilers massively (which they probably did) they have to recompile the whole **** to see the improvements pay off. So without changing a single line outside the compilers they can end up with a 400MB update.

I agree with this totally. People have mentioned in other threads that the gcc compiler was not good at producing code optimized for the Power PC. The huge increase in speed people have seen could well be down to this.
(the only part which confuses me about this is that if gcc is so bad at producing code for Power PC how is it that it can produce code which utilizes Altivec, a G4 specific technology)

Anyway if this is true then once Software companies get their hands on this improved compiler then we should see application performance improve as well.

[Scott_H]

The compiler is an interesting issue. Mainly because one of the RISC concepts is that you make the CPU ISA simple and have the compiler do a good job of compiling. That way instead of optimizing calls in the CPU (hardware) and having to debug them (Intel) you do it in software where you have much more control.

So it would seem that crappy PPC compilers would impact OS X. Of course no one knows if the compiler is that crappy and how much improvement we could get from it. Sounds to me like the old "wait 'til the bebug code is out of OS X. It will fly then." snake oil.

[godzookie2k]

Actually, Apple DOES advertise OSX, in, of all places. CompUSA. Land of Uneducated Buyers. Last I walked in I saw a big &lt;expletive deleted&gt; OS X:The Most Advanced OS Ever (or whatever) banner, hanging above a whole shelf of OSX boxes. Being in the Ad business, I can tell you that that qualifies as advertising. Advertising in a place where the majority of shoppers are about as educated as the 5.50 an hour employees who work there. So yes, Apple DOES advertise OS X and if I was some joe schmo mac user who walked into a comp usa looking for mavis beacon type tutor or something and happened to see that my computer manufacturer has shipped the "most advanced operating system ever" I would probably buy it. And you know what? I would install it and PROBABLY be lost and disappointed. And since there is no clear way to UNINSTALL OSX, I'd probably be pretty &lt;expletive deleted&gt; pissed off too.

Mac users have been waiting HOW long for copland, rhapsody and now X, and this piece of &lt;expletive deleted&gt; is what we get? a slow buggy, incomplete waste of hard drive space? We've been waiting YEARS to be able to........NOT be able to watch DVD's on our macs (I don't but some do) to NOT be able to have a working scanner. to NOT be able to connect my olympus digital camera? to NOT be able to have an internet connection last longer than 15 minutes? to have to upgrade my ram to 512 JUST to h menus drop down in less than 15 seconds? (exageration ) come now, and to top it all off, we've waited HOW long to have to fork up ANOTHER 20 bucks just to get the OS we were "supposed" to get? What the &lt;expletive deleted&gt;?

And to whomever suggested just downloading it off of hotline instead of paying apple, come now that goes against the principle of the matter. If I WANTED to pirate off a copy of OSX I could and would, but thats not the point. Apple has &lt;expletive deleted&gt; us over and THEY should pay for it.


nick

Oh, on topic:

digital hub my ass. My olympus doesn't work. My speakers work, I can listen to my mp3s pretty good, can't complain there. my Ati Xclaim OR nexus (second monitor) don't work, so no TV on my mac. and no video out to my TV so I can play rougue spear in REAL full screen either. Without my secondary cards I can't connect my video camera (hi 8) to my mac like before. My smart card reader doesn't work. My CD burner works.....slowly. Oh wait, VOICE COMMAND works! weee, I can say "open mail" and it pops open mail.app! wee. uhm oh wait, I still use entourage. crap.

[Visnaut]

Originally posted by ZO:
<STRONG>dont you get it? nobody was warned that half the stuff didnt work... and now you have to pay MORE to make it work BETTER (not even well... nor 'perfectly')</STRONG>

Perhaps if you had waited about, oh say, 2 weeks to make your purchase then maybe you would have been sufficiently warned? Then you would have come to realize the same thing I did at that time: that is was better to spend my $129 ($200CN to be more specific) when OS X was truly worth spending that much. I don't even know if 10.1 will be enough for me, which is why I'll play wait-and-see again.

Originally posted by ZO:
<STRONG>Yes, the OS may WORK... but I want it to work WELL and with everything I have that used to work!

Do ALL of you accept mediocrity like this? Or are you all brainwashed to accept everything Apple throws at you? OS X was not complete when it shipped... the fact that they charde you even MORE to fix their errors is horrible.</STRONG>

Brainwashed to accept everything Apple throws at us? Not me, but apparently you were. Apple's hype or mantra, whatever you wanna call it, took a hold you sufficiently for you to out and buy the thing without question, or waiting for reviews and the like. Now thats what I call brainwashing!

And may I hazard a guess that if Apple ships the DVD Player with no support for hardware-based decoders, or no support for your CD-RW, people with those machines will STILL go out and buy it, and will STILL go on this board and bitch about it till the cows come home?

I think what whats wrong here is that people are arguing about two different things. Some ppl think that others are defending what Apple released, and its your fault that your machine is not supported, and to just get lost. That's not true! Of course it sucks that Apple did all that! No one disagrees with that! Hell, all the reasons you mentioned why OS X 10.0 sucked are all the reasons I didn't buy it! The point that I'm trying to get across is that if you had the same expectations of being totally satisfied with this OS, then maybe you should of had the same amount of patience to do your research on it before-hand. I know I did, and I don't regret it.

Sure, Apple said certain machines were supported, and that OS X was the best thing since sliced bread. But you took no other word than theirs, and in the computer industry thats a very dangerous thing to do. In short, we are ALL deserving of a top-notch Apple product; but no one is deserving of Apple's pity or guilt for one's own misinformation, or not being satisfied for our own need for "Bigger, Better, NOW!".

Even with all that said, I have no doubt many of you are going to pre-order Mac OS X 10.1 the day it hits the Apple Store Online without blinking an eye, and then continue bitching about how Apple forced you to upgrade and how its no good, etc., etc., ad nauseum...

[Scott_H]

for the 10,000,001st time.

We found out after the pre-order that OS X would be lacking.

If Apple would make good on the "free" update many of us would be quiet. I didn't expect to pay $20 for video card drivers.

You know at "work" they're giving me a notebook to use. I asked for a powerbook but I think all they have are PeeCees. So maybe Linux will run well on it? At least with Linux you know where you stand.

[Smircle]

[quote]Originally posted by Scott_H:

So it would seem that crappy PPC compilers would impact OS X. Of course no one knows if the compiler is that crappy and how much improvement we could get from it. Sounds to me like the old "wait 'til the bebug code is out of OS X. It will fly then." snake oil.

In your furor about MacOS-X, you have misread my post. I was not trying to make you believe that compiler optimisations are all that Apple did over the last 4 month. However if they improved their compilers, they almost have to recompile every single line to make use of the changes.

MacOS-X 10.1 does fly here (Tit-Book 400). No "wait 'til", it is just fast. This cannot be just better compilers, they somehow cut down on interface latency, making the GUI much more responsive and somehow modified the Frameworks layout, severely boosting application launch time.

My single most important application is my emailer. I always kept the Classic version in the 10.0.x time. However with 10.1, I will switch to a native mailer app, because 10.1 is the release I am confortable with.

(and why the **** does that shitty board censor my swear-words?)

[Scott_H]

I know, i know. I write code my self. I read about how all the pirate builds of 10.0 were "fast" and "just wait for the debug code ...". Didn't happen.

OS X is slow. Slow for no good reason. That's good because that means Apple can speed it up. I'll be the final judge of speed on my system though. I'm sure what Apple thinks is fast is not what I think is fast. I'm sure they thought 10.0 was fast.

[iloveOSX]

Linux you know where you stand.

yes you do at that.

no chance of photoshop ever apearing on that platform
no chance of illustrator ever apearing on that platform
no chance of dreamweaver ever apearing on that platform
no chance of final cut ever apearing on that platform
no chance of consumer easy dvd authoring ever apearing on that platform
no chance of simple enough for grandma to use interface ever apearing on that platform
no chance of imovie ever apearing on that platform

linux has lots of good points but its no consumer OS and they too have problems with video drivers and sound drivers and video support

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by iloveOSX:
<STRONG>

yes you do at that.

no chance of photoshop ever apearing on that platform
no chance of illustrator ever apearing on that platform
no chance of dreamweaver ever apearing on that platform
no chance of final cut ever apearing on that platform
no chance of consumer easy dvd authoring ever apearing on that platform
no chance of simple enough for grandma to use interface ever apearing on that platform
no chance of imovie ever apearing on that platform

linux has lots of good points but its no consumer OS and they too have problems with video drivers and sound drivers and video support </STRONG>

Gosh I don't use any of that software.

Linux has...

Matlab yes
IDL yes
Xemacs yes
gcc yes
LaTeX et. al. yes
X Windows yes
perl yes


Video drivers? Like I said. I know where I stand. Unlike Apple's promise the world and ship 10% of it.

My grandmother can't use a computer so she's not a problem.

Did I mention that speakable items doesn't work on my iMac? It doesn't. I'll have to pay $20 to get it working. Thanks Apple. You suck.

[iloveOSX]

sounds like linux does everything you need. maybe you should save yourself $20 bucks apply that towards yellow dog linux i saved you a few minutes by looking up the url for you:
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/st...phtml?products

but scott, before you order PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE make sure you email them first and ask them if they support the rage pro drivers. If they do it looks like you are going to be one happy camper!!

congrats!

[edddeduck]

Personally ScottH I think you should take a chill pill dude....

Apple said sorry about the slowness of X.....

Also for my MP OS X make a huge difference coz OS 9 SUCKS with an MP thats it....

Now thats now quite true but it has as much thought put into it as your rants... But I do only use one proccessor in 9, so I run in X and classic all the time (minus DVD).

These days you never seem to post any more about issues you just rant on and on about drivers and/or recentally $20....

Chill out look @ the bigger picture b4 saying OSX sucks Apple sucks Etc....

Edd

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>

Gosh I don't use any of that software.

Linux has...

Matlab yes
IDL yes
Xemacs yes
gcc yes
LaTeX et. al. yes
X Windows yes
perl yes


Video drivers? Like I said. I know where I stand. Unlike Apple's promise the world and ship 10% of it.

My grandmother can't use a computer so she's not a problem.

Did I mention that speakable items doesn't work on my iMac? It doesn't. I'll have to pay $20 to get it working. Thanks Apple. You suck.</STRONG>

No, you suck. You could have returned the 10.0 if it was unsatisfactory (unless you were so stupid that you bought it from somewhere that disallows returns). But you didn't. So you effectively accepted the implied contract between buyer and seller.

Why the f*** are you still here anyway? Weren't you quitting as moderator? The sooner the better. You'd better get back to your lame-ass job that pays so poorly you can't even afford the upgrade.

[SnowmanX]

I, for one, don't care how old you are, Scott; you're childish beyond belief. Or na�ve. Maybe both. Does it really matter?

Anyhow, have you considered dumping your Mac(s) in favor of Linux and/or Windows or ending your line of Macs upon 10.1 release? I think that's reasonable, seeing how Apple has caused you a much fraught relationship. Seeing as how Linux fits your bill, what do you use your Mac(s) for anyway?

snowman

--finding solutions for incessant bitchers, whiners and their cousins

[nuckin futs]

i wish Apple would make available the previous builds (lower than FC1) on an "AS IS" basis with no support and a disclaimer.It's my decision if i want to royally screw up my OS. I wanna know what i'm missing without having to obtain the builds illegally.
I always get that warm fuzzy feeling when Software Update detects an update and fires up the updater. Hell, i'd be a happy camper if i start seeing 10.0.5 - 10.0.9(i know, it's non-existent) from now until 10.1 comes out!

Hope you're reading this SJ.

[Scott_H]

Ah You people are being silly now. I have to be a mindless OS X cheerleader to moderate here? I'm childish because I point out the short comings of the OS X roll out and how it totally sucks that Apple charges for drivers that should have shipped with the 10.0. Why would I return OS X when Apple said the updates were coming? We got to 10.0.4 and then nothing. That was months ago. Maybe I was a fool to trust Apple but ... you know ... fool me once shame on you (Apple) ...

Wake up people. OS X is NOT READY and it's not my fault. Saying so does not make me childish or a bad person. 10.1 will be closer but it will be lacking too. If you took a hard look at it you'd see that OS X is late and lacking in many areas. Remember, not my fault.

Don't kill the messenger.

New mods are coming for the forums here. But that wont fix OS X either.

[besson3c]

Did I mention that speakable items doesn't work on my iMac? It doesn't. I'll have to pay $20 to get it working. Thanks Apple. You suck.

horrors!! First you can't enjoy your screensavers, and now you don't have speakable items?

I guess speaking smooth-running screensavers would be your ultimate pill, eh? =)

[iloveOSX]

10.1 will be closer but it will be lacking too.

oh gee. does this mean we can look forward to your osx/apple comments post 10.1 launch?

on a totally different topic... is there a way to filter out certain user's posts from being displayed? perhaps in the prefs?

[edddeduck]

Scott there is a difference between a point of view and bitching and moaning. Most people aruge there point I understand YOUR problem but for me X is just fine if not better thanks alot.

Yes I have a different machine but before I had a Powermac 7100AV and OS9 chugged and games didn't work with my graphics card the box said works with 7100AV but it did not say some parts don't.

OS 9 comes with a DVD player as well but it will not work in my power mac even with an external DVD player but I understood my machine was more than 3 Years old and such is life in the computer world.Os 9 works on my old powermac but its cannot do all my new iMac could with the same system...

How old is your machine??? I think the one argumement of drivers is wearing a little thin now and that is why people are having a go at you. I for one think OS X is far from what was needed at release BUT I can see its good points as well. You seem blinded by the one fact of drivers....

My advice is stick to OS 9 then save up by a new machine with 10.1 when you can.....

I don't ever expect you to like X on your machine BUT you can at least listen and acknowledge why others like it..

As a final mark I cannot help but say wouldn't it be great if the moderator used some moderation in his commnts

This is just comments and is in no way a personal attack or flame on ScottH btw.

Cheers Edd

[godzookie2k]

Ok, a perfectly civil, allbeit heated discussion on the principality of paying for a 10.1 upgrade has quickly spiraled down into the usual Macnn name calling drivel. Can't we be remotely mature, just once? for &lt;expletive deleted&gt; sake! Now, back to our show.

i've downloaded 10.1 It kicks ass. It doesn't make my scanner work, I just upgraded my modem connection so I have no clue whether or not the DP modem bug is still in it, and I've upgraded my ram. yes. I can ALMOST be productive in X. finally. I can't &lt;expletive deleted&gt; print to my epson 1160 but hey, most of my apps are in classic ANYWAY so i guess thats ok. However if epson doesn't get some drivers out before Adobe and company start upgrading THEN some &lt;expletive deleted&gt; will be hitting the fan.

10.1's greatness isn't the point. 10.0's short comings is the point. 10.1 is theOS we were supposed to get. 10.0 is what we got. I recieved no warnings about it being as crappy as it was before i ordered. However the rumors of 4k7 (or whatever) being lightning fast after it was "de bugged" sure as &lt;expletive deleted&gt; were flying around before it shipped. So then I wait for the "next update will fix it all your problems!" (at this point DP modem panic being the main one) 10.0.1 came and went. nada. So then I wait for the "next update will fix it all your problems!" 10.0.2 came and went. nada.

etc. etc.

I'm still waiting for the OS X that Apple promised me. 10.1 is that OS and as far as I am concerned. I've already paid for it.


Nick.

on another note, I appreciate Scott_H's negative view of OS X as a moderator. Its a kinda refereshing piece of reality in this little disneyland we've built.

[Milio]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
<STRONG>Ok, a perfectly civil, allbeit heated discussion on the principality of paying for a 10.1 upgrade ...</STRONG>

Actually that's not even a problem. Steve Jobs stated that the update was free. Apple will be charging $20 for the CD and shipping. I, however, will not be charging for my burner time. If an OS X 10.0x user comes to me and asks about 10.1, I'll hand them some discs. It's free after all.

(BTW, Scott you know I completely agree with you. It's false advertising to release a boxed product that doesn't work. Everyone does it, but that doesn't make it right.)

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>Ah You people are being silly now. I have to be a mindless OS X cheerleader to moderate here? </STRONG>

No.

In my humble opinion (and I'm sure MacNN's policies disagree), the Moderators should be absolutely, totally neutral. IE, just moderate, and keep the personal stuff to oneself. Like a referee.

But, that's MacNN's (and the mods') decision, not mine.

[moki]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>
So it would seem that crappy PPC compilers would impact OS X. Of course no one knows if the compiler is that crappy and how much improvement we could get from it. Sounds to me like the old "wait 'til the bebug code is out of OS X. It will fly then." snake oil.</STRONG>

It certainly is true that gcc doesn't have very good PPC optimizations -- CodeWarrior is far superior, and MrC is even better than that. Just take a look at the disassembly yourself, it should be easy to see, assuming you know PPC asm.

Of course, we're talking about a 10% difference in terms of speed in most cases (which is a pretty big deal in programming terms) -- though some specific code can be optimized far more by a good compiler.

So the issue is real, however, we aren't talking about anything that will make such a dramtically noticable difference.

[Brit Ben]

Originally posted by Spirit_VW:
<STRONG>

No.

In my humble opinion (and I'm sure MacNN's policies disagree), the Moderators should be absolutely, totally neutral. IE, just moderate, and keep the personal stuff to oneself. Like a referee.

But, that's MacNN's (and the mods') decision, not mine.</STRONG>

What a pile of Cr@p. Everyone has a right to opinions, and I for one, find endless solace in other people also feeling ripped off, screwed, and generally let down.

It makes a very pleasant change from the mindless "I love apple and they can do no wrong" that the majority of apple users seem to have adopted.

Ben
My $0.02 only.

[godzookie2k]

You could have returned the 10.0 if it was unsatisfactory (unless you were so stupid that you bought it from somewhere that disallows returns).

Ok, Where exactly can you buy software, open the box, install the software and decide to return the software for a full refund? please tell me the place because I could use some free software.


Nick

[edit] and if you say the store is called hotline... I swear to (expletive deleted)

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: godzookie2k ]

[TNproud2b]

Amen, Scott.

If Microsoft released an OS that didn't support common hardware - everyone here would say, "see, Microsoft sucks".

I've used every Microsoft product ever made and none were as unfinished as OSX.

So there.

[SnowmanX]

Originally posted by Brit Ben:
<STRONG>

What a pile of Cr@p. Everyone has a right to opinions, and I for one, find endless solace in other people also feeling ripped off, screwed, and generally let down.

It makes a very pleasant change from the mindless "I love apple and they can do no wrong" that the majority of apple users seem to have adopted.

Ben
My $0.02 only.</STRONG>

What I find more unpleasant than even the "I love apple and they can do no wrong" crowd are 1) the "I love Microsoft and they can do no wrong" crowd and 2) the incessant, childish bitchers and moaners who think the world stops at their feet.

Frankly, I would think it befitting of -ahem- "adults" to find a more mature, perhaps quiet resolve than bantering for a shoulder to cry on in forums such as these.

Here's a thought to chew on, my fellow bovines: Say Apple had gone a different route, not released Public Beta and 10.0 as they had, but instead had gone ahead and waited until sometime this month to officially launch OS X (dubbed 10.0 but with the purported exemplary fit and finish of 10.1) for $150 US. In other words, the development timeline and effective cost would not change one bit, but the semantics and politics of releases would change to reflect a later, more realistic timeline. Would you rather have gone this route for what would effectively be the same net cost?

snowman

Originally posted by aaroncsmith:
<STRONG>OS X is not a new beginning for many users. It is a last ditch solution before moving to Windows. Many Mac users have been hanging on to the platform purely on the promise that OS X was going to right everything that was wrong with the Classic OS.

So to get back on topic, I mostly feel let down that all of my digital devices do not work with my "Digital Hub". As usual, Apple has a good vision, but only Microsoft seems to be able to make it a reality.</STRONG>

Ok...I feel like I should let you in on something here. I am a PC user...At the beginning of this year I purchased a Dell Laptop with Windows ME installed. Please bear in mind here that I did so at a time when Wintel boxes were being shipped with ME as the one and only OS. This was Microsoft's next big thing and they backed it as their newest consumer Home PC OS...

Do you guys, being Mac Users, really need me to list all the problems I'm having? Not just me either...but EVERY SINGLE PERSON I'VE MET who is still running ME (most people drop it and install 98SE but I'm lazy and sort of amused by how crappy this product is).

Let's see where to start...ok, I'll just give you the problems this beast had when it came out of the box...

1) Multiple blue screens...so far I've narrowed it down to A) ME can't deal with my Ram setup...as in it has no idea how much ram I have on how many chips on whatever number of slots... or B) One of the following programs that I have installed on this piece is not compatible with the OS and that freaks ME (Microsoft's version of ME not me, Yeti) out. The guilty program is one of the following (or...possibly all of the following): AIM, Netscape, iMesh, ICQ, Palm Desktop, or Eudora. When I don't run any of these programs everything is fine.

2) You guys have problems with brightness keys not working in X? How about in ME world where each tap of the brightness key turns the left side of the screen almost completely dark? This when I'm trying to make the screen brighter (admittedly this could be a problem with Dell's components)

3) Oh yeah, this one is my favorite...ME won't let me click on a weblink that exists inside of any app other than IE. If I try it: instant Freeze. Every time.

There are more...but those are the most fun...ok, now let's talk tech support: Microsoft's website offered me several downloads...they have done nothing...ONE CAME WITH A VIRUS!!!!!!!! Norton hooked me up on that one...I'm basically waiting till ME kills Norton...then a virus will kill the comp and the circle will be complete.

Oh, and DELL has no clue what is going on...I've spoken with them more than I have with my mother the past few months...and I'm starting to realize that my Mom definetly knows more about computers than their tech support.

So, should you be ticked that you are being asked to pay $20 bucks to upgrade to a usable O.S.??? NO WAY, because you'll have a sweet OS (I've seen it...it's beautiful...everything a Computer should be) that every PC user will be wishing they had (until Microsoft copies it and totally screws it up then all of us will be cursing it). And if you really can't do with the 20 dollar pricetag, you've always got OS 9 to fall back on...

count your blessings mac users, count 'em...

-the Yeti

Oh yeah...and if you're wondering why I'm still a PC user, don't worry, I am too...

[godzookie2k]

Good point, probably I would have less to bitch about. Apple has made us wait this long, a couple of months more wouldn't have made that much of a difference. I would have wished that apple showed us more of the the OS throughout development, but I guess that would ruin any and all surprise factor. The cost in this case isn't the point that I am trying to make. (and Scott_H I assume) The point is that Apple promised, but didn't come through. They promised an OS that ran fully functional on a list of hardware. Nowhere did I see that 10.0 was feature incomplete. On Apple's site or on the box or anywhere outside of these boards and others like them. Even C|Net's review didn't say that, neither did any of the other reviews I have read on it (post purchase).

SO, If Apple's selling price on OSX 10.(1)/0 was 150 and it worked as advertised. NO multiprocessor modem bug, FULLY optimized and functional video drivers, DVD/CDR support out of the box, and SCSI access through classic (i.e. so my scanner works) and speed optimizations along the lines of what we have seen of 10.1 then yes, I would eagerly have put my money down. 150 bucks is nothing to pay for a piece of software. neither is 30 bucks (beta) neither is 100 bucks (10.0) neither is 20 bucks (10.1) but at least it would work as advertised.

Nick

[TNproud2b]

In response to Yeti:

(1) WinME is running great until you install non-Microsoft freeware, some of which is 'beta' (ICQ). No kidding? (insert rolleye smiley here) Well, it's either that or the RAM, you say. Did Microsoft sell you that RAM?

(2) You're describing a hardware issue related to the cold cathode backlighting in your Dell TFT LCD flatpanel. Did Microsoft manufacture that flatpanel backlight assembly?

(3) Typical Microsoft glitch. You'll grow to love 'em. Just don't ever leave the IE browser window and your problem is gone.


Your score: 1 for 3

[proceedNeXT]

Yesterday, there were 5 CD's in my post. 3 From AOL, one from Compuserve, even one from a local backery. All had a small booklet with them.

Guess what? They were for free. I think it wouldn't be a bad advertisment for Apple, if they just shipped the X CD's to every registered X user.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: proceedNeXT ]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>The compiler is an interesting issue. Mainly because one of the RISC concepts is that you make the CPU ISA simple and have the compiler do a good job of compiling. That way instead of optimizing calls in the CPU (hardware) and having to debug them (Intel) you do it in software where you have much more control.

So it would seem that crappy PPC compilers would impact OS X. Of course no one knows if the compiler is that crappy and how much improvement we could get from it. Sounds to me like the old "wait 'til the bebug code is out of OS X. It will fly then." snake oil.</STRONG>

First the versions of GCC that Apple used to build the initial retail release of of MacOS X were very bad, what's worse is that the compiler situation hasn't gotten much better.

Apple is HURTING for compiler writers right now. They have been trying to find compiler engineers to hire for over 2 years now. The compiler team has been and continues to be EXTREMELY understaffed and to a significant degree is lacking some real talent in this field.

Second the initial releases of OS X were FILLED with debugging code, it's only been since the 5xxx series builds that the lions share of all that bloat was removed from the OS. In this regard OS 10.0.0 was most definitly of beta quality in the department of optimization.
Fortunately much of this has been fixed and many of the API's which were nearly totally lacking in documentation have now been well documented, and even API's which had nearly no implementation have been made much more robust. The HID Manager comes to mind in particular.

Lastly I wouldn't exactly say that I feel duped by Apple, but MacOS X NEVER should have been released back in March, and it certianly never should have been put on retail shelves for consumtion by the average person. I don't know what the motivation was to release the OS in such an unfinished, and more over unpolished state was, but by my estimation and by the definition of good software engineering practices this was a huge mistake on Apple's behalf.

I do feel that Apple ought to offer this upgrade via both media. People who can manage a large download ought to at least be given the opportunity to do just that. For those that can't handle such an undertaking or prefer to get a hardcopy the CD route should be available as it always has been in the past. I wouldn't call Apple's decision to distribute this upgrade (which is really finally in the form the initail release ought to have been) via only a $20 CD isn't exactly underhanded, but it's not really on the up-and-up either.

I'll pay for the upgrade because ultimately I don't have a choice. My ADP (ADC now?) membership has recently expired and I don't plan on renewing it because I won't soon be able to get the student pricing, and to be honest it's not really been worth it for me in the past. However if Apple were really interested in instilling confidence in it's user base I think it would be wise not to alienate a large chunk of an already incredibly small user base.

Though I can understand the reasons to charge $20 for a CD only upgrade, all the arguments to the contrary are also very good and shouldn't be dismissed so easily.

-Nathan

P.S. MacOS X is only the worlds most advanced operating system because Apple killed off OpenStep ;p

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Did I mention that speakable items doesn't work on my iMac? It doesn't. I'll have to pay $20 to get it working. Thanks Apple. You suck.

Wow, finally I've discovered someone who doesn't HATE speakable items. Amazing.

I think Apple warned everyone about OS X by default. The first version of virtually all software sucks, this is common knowledge among veteran computer users. If you buy version 1.0.0, then it's going to be a headache. Apple tried to hide this by calling it 10.0.0, but I doubt that anyone at these fora was fooled by that stunt.

So all I can say is, what on Earth did you all expect with version 1.0.0?!?!? Of course it's going to need updates. Apple has created an update so thorough, so vast, that it is too large to download. We must get it on CD because it's the biggest damn x.1 update to ever come out of Cupertino, and all in only 8 months time!!! This is reason to rejoice, not to bitch and moan!

I think that a 600+ MB update to OS X should be looked upon as a blessing, not an inconvenience. If it costs $20, then so what? Think about all the programmers working 16 hr days...think about Apple remaining profitable in the current economy.

Plus, since most of you already bought OS X and this is merely an update for existing users of OS X, then it should be fine to copy the update disc. So just find one or two others to split the cost of the CD, and then copy it. It will cost you less than a Big Mac and fries.

[- - e r i k - -]

Ah.... the joys and gripes of living on the cutting edge.

Scott, I think you're just angry because you failed to see the warning signs. You wanted desperatly OS X to be all what the hype set it out to be. And so you felt let down. By Apple. OS X wasn't optimized. It lacked drivers. Most of all it lacked applications.

And we all knew. Or should have known, in your case.

OS X 1.0 was indeed the Public Beta 2. But not releasing anything solid at the set date would have made Apple look bad. So they box it, slap version 1.0 on it and ship it.

This is version 1.0. Did you expect it to be perfect? Sure. Apple told you so, didn't they? And every other company will have you know that their latest and greatest product is too.

Well, I have learned. I knew OS X wouldn't be ready for prime-time. I saw the red flags waving high in the sky. So I held out. And it looks like it's going to pay off too. I won't have to pay $20 for an upgrade, so I can skip that altogether and pay the $99 for a OS I can work, play and live with.

You've learned your lesson Scott. Just don't feel bitter about it.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: - - e r i k - - ]

[TC]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
<STRONG>150 bucks is nothing to pay for a piece of software. neither is 30 bucks (beta) neither is 100 bucks (10.0) neither is 20 bucks (10.1) but at least it would work as advertised.

Nick</STRONG>

Hey, remember if you bought the beta then you got a discount on 10.0.

Somebody else mentioned receiving AOL + Compuserve discs for free. So should Apple give you the CDs for free and then charge you every month?

I am so sick of hearing everybody complaining about this. Has nobody seen the state of the industry at the moment? Almost all PC companies are seeing sales + profits dropping and you don�t want to help keep Apple moving in the right direction?

Others have mentioned that Apple should have stated on the box that there were faults with the OS. If Microsoft followed suit you wouldn�t be able to get the box through your front door!

I think Apple should just give people the choice as they always have with 'free' upgrades. If you have a cable modem then the download won�t be so painful. I am on ISDN so I would prefer to pay the money and get the 3 CDs delivered. But like I say, you should have the choice if only to stop people complaining.

[Smircle]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
10.1 will be closer but it will be lacking too. If you took a hard look at it you'd see that OS X is late and lacking in many areas. Remember, not my fault.

I guess this is what they call a self-fulfilling prophecy. With that attitude, there is no chance in hell you are going to like 10.1. And not because it sucks.

Am I not right in saying, "The Customer Is ALWAYS Right!"

Well then to you I-have-more-money-than-brains-"quit-whining"-I-love Apple-no-matter-what-because-it-is-perfect-and-there-is-no-reason-to-move-forward-as-OS10.0.4-is-fine-and-there-is-no-need-for-free-(meaning-free)-upgrades-and-certainly-NO-questio n-for-customer-service-or-ANY-ROOM-FOR-IMPROVEMENT-COS-APPLE-ROCKS-AND-IF-ITS-PERFECT-THEN-THE-ONE-BUTTON-MOUSE-IS-THE-BEST-AND-THERE-IS-NO-NEED-FOR-BUILT-IN-MICROPHONES-BLAH-BLAH mofos, you are wrong!!

Having said that, I'll pay for the update cos what use is PB and OSX.0 without OSX.1 huh? I might as well get the 'real thing' after all because that's what I wanted in the 1st place. (And there wasn't that much different between PB and OSX but yeah 10.1 will rock)

Let's Get This Party Started Right and Quickly!!

[jokell82]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
<STRONG>

Ok, Where exactly can you buy software, open the box, install the software and decide to return the software for a full refund? please tell me the place because I could use some free software.


Nick

[edit] and if you say the store is called hotline... I swear to (expletive deleted)

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: godzookie2k ]</STRONG>

Well, I don't think they sell Mac stuff, but Electronics Boutique (aka in some places EBX) allows you to return any and all software within 10 days, open or not. I've returned games within the time just saying I had beat it and didn't want it anymore, and they took it back. Now if they'd only carry Mac stuff.

[besson3c]

(1) WinME is running great until you install non-Microsoft freeware, some of which is 'beta' (ICQ). No kidding? (insert rolleye smiley here) Well, it's either that or the RAM, you say. Did Microsoft sell you that RAM?

It's a shame that any program can bring down the OS like that... of course, Classic apps can bring down the OS too, but more often than not these are caused by third-party extensions. At least we don't have to deal with a registry, or startup programs which are difficult for novice users to know how to disable.


WinME is a horrible OS.

[ScottEllsworth]

$20 seems reasonable for what you are getting. I intend to pay it for the machines I administer.

As far as "they should have been trickling out changes", that is only something you can do with incremental changes. With sweeping changes, you need to change everything in sync, or stuff breaks.

Consider - if they had released a few dozen patches, they would need to test the entire matrix of "has apache update, but did not install open gl" if they wanted it to be relatively crash free. This way, they can test just one configuration - 10.1 - on every machine they can find, and feel pretty sure that the final product was good.

Further, given that interaction bugs are hard to find and hard to fix, you really do want a limited number of test platforms.

Finally, software takes time. I was at WWDC, and saw the Java pre-release. It was very cool, but it was not really usable by end users. They have been working hard, and now, things that were only barely there in May are working and finished in September, along with the OS update that some of it depends on.

So, while they likely could have released some patches since 10.0.4, I consider 10.0.0 to 10.0.4 a pretty amazing rate of code - test - release for just seven months. Adding 10.1 to the mix means that this has been a very fast release cycle.

I did just do the 650M developer download of the latest 10.1 build for testing, and it took a while. I can see why they feel that it is important to save that bandwidth for the typical consumer, and to give the average CDR-less consumer a rescue CD.

Scott