[driven]

Too overblown on the news.

Dog fighting is horrific. Convicting a man in the news before he even goes to trial is a bit much, but expected in modern times. What kills me is the sudden "love" for pit bulls. If you watch the news you'd think that these things are as gentle and family friendly as a poodle. Suddenly everyone loves pit-bulls.
(sigh)

If Vick did what they say he should get convicted of being stupid, in addition to the dog-fighting crimes.

[Dakarʒ]

Did you hear about some of the things found at his house?

[IceEnclosure]

Of course he did it. If dog fighting went on at MY HOUSE, I'd know about it. There are just some things you're gonna get convicted for, by the media, before seeing the judge.

[turtle777]

I hate pit bulls. For all I care, they should all be shot.

-t

[driven]

Did he live at that house?

I'm not getting him off here .. I have no sympathy for what he did. However I'm not going to start treating pit-bulls like puppies either.

[Dakarʒ]

Yes it was his house. That's why its a big deal.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Yes it was his house. That's why its a big deal.

I could be mistaken, but he owns several homes. I don't believe he resided in that house.
If you say he did I'll take your word for it.

[Dakarʒ]

I assume he owned it for a reason.

[Y3a]

I guess the dead ones in the shallow graves, and the junk they confiscated from his house, or the chopper video of the pens they were kept in mean nothing. Vick is an idiot.

[Dakarʒ]

I'm sure his dog rape stand was just conversation piece.

[::maroma::]

The demeanor of Pit Bulls has no bearing on whether or not you are allowed to force them to fight to the death, murder them, or generally mistreat them. They still reside under the laws that we have that protect any other animal from things like this.

Of course Vick is allowed is due process. Under the laws of this country he is innocent until proven guilty. But people have their opinions, and it seems that most have already convicted him. Hard to blame those people with all we've been presented with thus far. Personally I'm pretty certain he knew what was happening at the very least. At the most I think he was directly involved. It seems the evidence is stacked pretty high against him. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

What really gets me, other than the cruelty to animals, is the way anyone who is given so much (or earns so much) can just throw it all away by doing incredibly stupid things like this (as well as the other stupid things he's done in the past). It actually makes me angry. I would give just about anything to be paid as much as these athletes do to play a sport I love to play. I see these sorts of guys as spoiled little children who don't know what they have.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

The demeanor of Pit Bulls has no bearing on whether or not you are allowed to force them to fight to the death, murder them, or generally mistreat them. They still reside under the laws that we have that protect any other animal from things like this.

No one is arguing that they should be mistreated. I would argue, however, that we should stop breeding them at all. I get really sick of the stories of kids getting mauled by a neighbor's pit bull and the neighbor acting astonished. Let's face it, you most likely got a pit bull because of the reputation, so your machismo got the little girl next door messed up for life.

[Dakarʒ]

They do seem to attract some very poor owners.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

They do seem to attract some very poor owners.

QFT.

-t

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

No one is arguing that they should be mistreated. I would argue, however, that we should stop breeding them at all. I get really sick of the stories of kids getting mauled by a neighbor's pit bull and the neighbor acting astonished. Let's face it, you most likely got a pit bull because of the reputation, so your machismo got the little girl next door messed up for life.

I agree. Pitt Bulls certainly have proven to be more aggressive than most dogs, by a fairly big margin. I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of regulation on their breeding in the U.S. But that's another argument entirely.

[scottiB]

Pit bulls and Rots get bad reps, but it's the owner that trains them to be violent. Any dog can be trained to attack and be vicious, as can any dog be gentle and safe.

A long ago poster here wrote something that I always think about as a dog owner (and I've edited it a bit because it was a reponse to another post):

maxelson:
No such thing as a bad dog. Bad owners, yes. If the dog is "bad" it's a human's fault. Disease notwithstanding. A dog is a creature that works and lives at the whim of humans. To a dog, man is as a god.

I have two dogs that I never raise a hand to, and try never to raise my voice to. Dogs are devoted to man, and enjoy being in our presence. Those who don't have been abused or frightened by human contact.

Dogs who fight or attack do it for their masters' approvals and rewards.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

They do seem to attract some very poor owners.

You just hit the nail squarely on the head. A certain quality of "humans" goes for "tough looking, mean dogs" and corrupts breeds. In the '70s and '80s it was Dobermans and later Rotweillers. Today it's Pitts.

Ever met a properly socialized, well trained Pit? They are gentle, loyal, positively great to have around. They will defend kids to their (the dog's) death. Ever see the "Little Rascals"? Petey was a Pit. It's ALL about socialization and training. A well bred, well socialized, well trained dog of any breed will be a great dog, while a poorly trained, unsocialized, violently trained dog will be a danger.

Instead of doing away with the dogs, we need to start shooting the "people" who do this sort of thing to them. I hate people who abuse animals just as much as I hate people who abuse kids.

[scaught]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I hate pit bulls. For all I care, they should all be shot.

-t

<>Epithet deleted by management.<> Express your sentiments less crudely.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

They will defend kids to their (the dog's) death.

I think thats part of why myself and others don't like them. A labrador WON'T lock onto your hand ever. Neither will my housemate, a basenji dog. Heck, you'd have a better chance against an angry mastiff then an angry 90lb. pitbull, a pitbull who possibly got the wrong idea about your intentions of harming it's owner. My friend has a 110+lb pit and I don't like going to his house, to the point that I generally don't. It seems like a happy dog and he's a good owner from what I can tell. This thing is just large, toothy, and I've seen them hang from tree branches for like 2 minutes(with their mouth), chew up a metal door handle on a locked door to the point that it's a sharp mangled bloody mess, so I don't want nothin' to do wit em.

[KeriVit]

Precisely the point why they are used in this inhumane way. Unfortunately, it is in their blood. Unfortunately people take advantage of this. Unfortunately, people and dogs get hurt or die due to this.

I'm sorry, I would love to "save" such an animal and think all was well. As soon as you can convince me that they are just as safe as labs, terriers, setters, or even Rotties.

OH, and driven, I'm here in GA too. I only hope the rest of the nation isn't getting as bombarded from every direction like we are...

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I think thats part of why myself and others don't like them. A labrador WON'T lock onto your hand ever. Neither will my housemate, a basenji dog. Heck, you'd have a better chance against an angry mastiff then an angry 90lb. pitbull, a pitbull who possibly got the wrong idea about your intentions of harming it's owner. My friend has a 110+lb pit and I don't like going to his house, to the point that I generally don't. It seems like a happy dog and he's a good owner from what I can tell. This thing is just large, toothy, and I've seen them hang from tree branches for like 2 minutes(with their mouth), chew up a metal door handle on a locked door to the point that it's a sharp mangled bloody mess, so I don't want nothin' to do wit em.

You haven't met my girlfriends moms 235lbs mastiff then.

[Jawbone54]

Supposedly there were some undercover cops who were involved in the dogfighting circuit who saw Vick at many events, throwing around as much as $20,000 on single fights.

Regardless, it was Vick's property, and I guarantee you he knew what was going on. The judicial process will prove/disprove it.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by KeriVit 

OH, and driven, I'm here in GA too. I only hope the rest of the nation isn't getting as bombarded from every direction like we are...

It's been a slow news month. It's definitely saturated the news, until it was replaced by the NBA referee scandal.

[moonmonkey]

I don't see what the big deal is, its good exercise and the dogs enjoy it.

[Jawbone54]

Sports are going to get to the point where they're so screwed up with ref scandals, doping (the latest Tour de France developments don't help), thug lifestyles, egomania, and everything else that people are going to eventually stop caring as much.

I can't even watch the NBA anymore, and I watch very little football. I'm now a soccer and golf man (and a bit of baseball).

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by scottiB 

Pit bulls and Rots get bad reps, but it's the owner that trains them to be violent. Any dog can be trained to attack and be vicious, as can any dog be gentle and safe.

Ever think about why those breeds are chosen? Because they're already part way there. An owner can play a part in behavior, but don't pretend genetics is a nonfactor. It's already been proven to be a factor in humans, and we're randomly bred. Dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds of years.

It may be warm and fuzzy to think that there are no bad dogs, it's just not true. I've owned a variety of dogs and some were significantly more prone to biting people than others. My current dog, a lab, couldn't be trained to bite someone if you tried. You can reach in her mouth and take a piece of meat out and she'll just lick you. Many dogs I've had would bite hard if you even acted like to were reaching for the meat. I'm the same owner and the dogs have all been treated the same way.

[scottiB]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Ever think about why those breeds are chosen? Because they're already part way there. An owner can play a part in behavior, but don't pretend genetics is a nonfactor. It's already been proven to be a factor in humans, and we're randomly bred. Dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds of years.

It may be warm and fuzzy to think that there are no bad dogs, it's just not true.

I'm not saying there are no bad dogs - but there are no "bad" breeds of dogs.

The pit bulls that are bred for fighting are lost causes; they can only be put down. If I were to buy a pit bull or a Rot from an AKC breeder, they will not be bred for violence or fighting. Not all dogs of a breed are that way - just the intent of certain breeders to develop the violent tendencies. It may cold and rashy to think that all of a breed are frothing time bombs, but it's not true either.

It takes a lot of work to breed and develop a killing dog, I'd imagine. If not, there woudn't be so many graves at Vick's house.

[KeriVit]

I don't know I had a Female Chow/Shep that was sweet as pie to people but could and would maim another dog if her mood turned- with no provokation whatsoever. They are jealous little bitches who demand to be the only companion for their owners. Mean as she was - her fighting skills sucked.

She's now dead btw.

[k2director]

The only pit bulls I've ever known personally (two) have been incredibly loving and friendly. I think the breed may lean towards aggressive behavior *if pushed*, but if not, they're fine.

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Ever think about why those breeds are chosen? Because they're already part way there. An owner can play a part in behavior, but don't pretend genetics is a nonfactor. It's already been proven to be a factor in humans, and we're randomly bred. Dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds of years.

It may be warm and fuzzy to think that there are no bad dogs, it's just not true. I've owned a variety of dogs and some were significantly more prone to biting people than others. My current dog, a lab, couldn't be trained to bite someone if you tried. You can reach in her mouth and take a piece of meat out and she'll just lick you. Many dogs I've had would bite hard if you even acted like to were reaching for the meat. I'm the same owner and the dogs have all been treated the same way.

[macintologist]

I think the charges are false. I think state prosecutors are peeing their pants from excitement of being able to indict a celebrity, like they always do. This is only about lawyers and journalists shitting themselves from so much excitement. I don't think Mr. Vick should go to jail. He never did any wrong to anybody. Dogs, like cats, like ants, like flys, are a bunch of dumb animals and do not have any rights. Rights are for human beings only. What next, is the dog going to be an adverse witness? I think the bureaucrats should get real jobs and leave this guy alone.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

I think the charges are false. I think state prosecutors are peeing their pants from excitement of being able to indict a celebrity, like they always do. This is only about lawyers and journalists shitting themselves from so much excitement. I don't think Mr. Vick should go to jail. He never did any wrong to anybody. Dogs, like cats, like ants, like flys, are a bunch of dumb animals and do not have any rights. Rights are for human beings only. What next, is the dog going to be an adverse witness? I think the bureaucrats should get real jobs and leave this guy alone.

was that fake or are you really retarded?

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

was that fake or are you really retarded?

I think all the bureaucrats hounding him should get real jobs.. you know.. where you provide products and services to paying customers.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I think thats part of why myself and others don't like them. A labrador WON'T lock onto your hand ever. Neither will my housemate, a basenji dog. Heck, you'd have a better chance against an angry mastiff then an angry 90lb. pitbull, a pitbull who possibly got the wrong idea about your intentions of harming it's owner.

Pitts will only attack if they're trained to-or you're actually physically harming someone in their family. This is how dogs in general operate. Unless you're doing something that the dog can see is harmful or he's been trained to recognize as bad, he'll challenge you, charge you, try to run you off, but he WON'T attack (as in biting and such).

The whole "bull" part of all bull breeds was that they were trained to mess with bulls. Real, huge, male cattle-who are born with a lot of attitude. So these dogs have no inbred fear of big critters, and are really strong. But it is TRAINING that made the dogs in the 19th century do what they did to bulls, and it's training that makes attack dogs.

Further, Labs, Goldens, hounds, any large breed, will do what is smart in a situation, (unless they're otherwise trained). If you trained a Lab to latch on and hold, he'd do it. In German Shepherd circles, there's a sport called Schutzhund, which is really a skills competition rather than a dog show "beauty pageant." In Shutzhund, one skill is to hold someone. Not bite, not snap, but hold. With the mouth. A good GSD that's well trained can hold a person (often by the throat) for hours if needed without any real damage to the person (that doesn't take into account the person's potential laundry problems). In other words, this is a trainable skill, and not something that is specific to certain breeds.

The problem is so-called "people" who abuse animals. They are also statistically far more likely to abuse children and spouses. They have a problem with empathy, and it can border on antisocial personality disorder (which is sometimes called sociopathic disorder). Getting these "people" out of situations where they can harm others-humans or dogs-is paramount to protecting society as a whole and individuals around them.

[Laminar]

What's a pitbull thread without Rob? Answer: Civil
(kinda)

[Dakarʒ]

That's like a toilet without **** in it.

[Paco500]

Glenn-

You are generally reasoned and though out, but in this case, you just seem to be deluded. You can blame owners until the cows come home and claim all dogs are a tabula rosa behaving only how they are trained, but in doing so, you are being (willfully or not) ignorant.

Dogs are bread for certain physical and behavioral traits. I used to dog sit for a Siberian Husky, born and raised in Virginia Beach- obviously he had never pulled a sled in his life. But the dog was happiest when I put on roller blades and let him pull me around. He would run for miles- never encouraged, never trained. It was in his blood. Pit bulls were bread to fight and kill. They have the temperament and the body to back it up.

You keep saying that "Pitts will only attack if they're trained to-or you're actually physically harming someone in their family." Do you truly believe that a dog can properly reason what an attack is? Kids play fight, kids jump the fence to visit friends, and kids die. And for every Akita, Rotty, or doberman that does the killing, there are 20 pitts.

These things have no place in modern, civilized society.

[macintologist]

I don't think this is really a question of whether or not people should own bulldogs. Frankly, I think people can do with their property whatever they wish so long as they don't hurt others.

I think the real issue here is whether or not those bureaucrats working on this case should get real jobs, or at the very least work on cases involving rape, murder, robbery etc.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

I don't think this is really a question of whether or not people should own bulldogs. Frankly, I think people can do with their property whatever they wish so long as they don't hurt others.

I think the real issue here is whether or not those bureaucrats working on this case should get real jobs, or at the very least work on cases involving rape, murder, robbery etc.

Are you being serious? Do you not think that dogfighting should be illegal?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

Glenn-

You are generally reasoned and though out, but in this case, you just seem to be deluded. You can blame owners until the cows come home and claim all dogs are a tabula rosa behaving only how they are trained, but in doing so, you are being (willfully or not) ignorant.

Dogs are bread for certain physical and behavioral traits. I used to dog sit for a Siberian Husky, born and raised in Virginia Beach- obviously he had never pulled a sled in his life. But the dog was happiest when I put on roller blades and let him pull me around. He would run for miles- never encouraged, never trained. It was in his blood. Pit bulls were bread to fight and kill. They have the temperament and the body to back it up.

You keep saying that "Pitts will only attack if they're trained to-or you're actually physically harming someone in their family." Do you truly believe that a dog can properly reason what an attack is? Kids play fight, kids jump the fence to visit friends, and kids die. And for every Akita, Rotty, or doberman that does the killing, there are 20 pitts.

These things have no place in modern, civilized society.

You are right that all dogs have traits that are specific to their breeds. Huskies have almost no recall and love to run. Shepherds will herd anything and everything. And bully breeds are strong and tenacious. But that does NOT mean that they are, by nature, aggressive dogs. By far the most aggressive dogs in my experience are Chihuahuas, particularly since their owners think their aggressive behaviors are "cute". It's not cute when a Chihuahua bites anyone, but since they don't look like they could do a lot of damage (they CAN by the way), their owners laugh it off. This lack of training is the key to their behavior-they display aggressive and dominant behavior and get away with it, so they tend to be hard to manage and unpredictable. (Studies indicate other dogs, such as miniature poodles, are more aggressive, but it's probably regionally dependent.)

Also I never said that any dog won't attack. I was speaking about how a well trained, well socialized, well treated dog will behave-as he is trained. Untrained dogs are unpredictable and thus a problem. Well trained (as in good training toward good ends) are very predictable and thus NOT a problem. I do not recommend anyone get any dog and just expect the dog to "behave," because the dog won't know HOW to behave in his new context. By nature dogs DO seek a place in a pack structure, whether among other dogs or humans or both. By establishing the dog's place through training, a person gives the dog a context to work from and his behavior becomes very predictable (within the limits of his breed-my malamute-mix will romp and play within his pack role, while my GSD will herd and "enforce the rules" like dogs coming when they're called).

Again, it is NOT a problem with the dogs, it's a problem with the people who abuse them, whether for fighting or to "look tough" or whatever. If every dog was treated humanely, respectfully, and ethically, we would not have a dog population problem, we would not have a dog violence problem, and we would not need this discussion.

[OldManMac]

Excellent points, ghporter. I don't know if you've seen it, but National Geographic channel has a show called The Dog Whisperer, and he does some amazing behavioral modification with dogs of all types, including some very aggressive ones.

[driven]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

You are right that all dogs have traits that are specific to their breeds. Huskies have almost no recall and love to run. Shepherds will herd anything and everything. And bully breeds are strong and tenacious. But that does NOT mean that they are, by nature, aggressive dogs. By far the most aggressive dogs in my experience are Chihuahuas, particularly since their owners think their aggressive behaviors are "cute". It's not cute when a Chihuahua bites anyone, but since they don't look like they could do a lot of damage (they CAN by the way), their owners laugh it off. This lack of training is the key to their behavior-they display aggressive and dominant behavior and get away with it, so they tend to be hard to manage and unpredictable. (Studies indicate other dogs, such as miniature poodles, are more aggressive, but it's probably regionally dependent.)

Also I never said that any dog won't attack. I was speaking about how a well trained, well socialized, well treated dog will behave-as he is trained. Untrained dogs are unpredictable and thus a problem. Well trained (as in good training toward good ends) are very predictable and thus NOT a problem. I do not recommend anyone get any dog and just expect the dog to "behave," because the dog won't know HOW to behave in his new context. By nature dogs DO seek a place in a pack structure, whether among other dogs or humans or both. By establishing the dog's place through training, a person gives the dog a context to work from and his behavior becomes very predictable (within the limits of his breed-my malamute-mix will romp and play within his pack role, while my GSD will herd and "enforce the rules" like dogs coming when they're called).

Again, it is NOT a problem with the dogs, it's a problem with the people who abuse them, whether for fighting or to "look tough" or whatever. If every dog was treated humanely, respectfully, and ethically, we would not have a dog population problem, we would not have a dog violence problem, and we would not need this discussion.

My 5 pound Chihuahuas/pekingese mix (Pek-a-chu) is too stupid to bite anyone. The neighbor's cats beat him up just for the fun of it. On the off-chance that he *did* bite someone he doesn't have the teeth or the strength to break skin. Quite different than a pit-bull.

[nredman]

If the leash doesn't fit, you must acquit.

[♥]

Any dog can maim and kill.

Pomeranian kills baby.

And the lady who had a face put back on? Her Labrador dog chewed off her face.

So, it can be any dog though I do personally believe that pit bulls, at this point, have largely been selectively bred for aggressiveness and that makes them unpredictable which is why people are frightened of them. Me included.

[moonmonkey]

If a Pomeranian was as big as a small child it could easily kill a double decker bus several football fields long.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by driven 

My 5 pound Chihuahuas/pekingese mix (Pek-a-chu) is too stupid to bite anyone. The neighbor's cats beat him up just for the fun of it. On the off-chance that he *did* bite someone he doesn't have the teeth or the strength to break skin. Quite different than a pit-bull.

Your dog is socialized to be submissive. I assure you that a Chihuahua CAN and will break skin-and do a lot of damage beyond that-if he's so inclined. Sure, he may only have 3/8" long canine teeth, but he's got a powerful neck (for his size) and remember that all dogs have a (proportionally) huge amount of muscle dedicated to working their jaws. Your dog could do a lot of damage, but your training and socialization have made him safe-maybe too safe if the cat regularly beats up on him.

[OldManMac]

One of his co-defendants pleaded guilty, with no assurances of a lesser sentence for cooperating. It doesn't look good for Vick.

Vick co-defendant pleads guilty

[TheWOAT]

Its funny that Vick will have a problem finding NFL because of the animal rights lobby and the feelings of the general public towards dogs while Ray Lewis was involved in something more horrific, and is now all over those NFL Network ads. Vick is an idiot, and I hope he learns somethign from his younger brother Marcus (hehe)

[driven]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Your dog is socialized to be submissive. I assure you that a Chihuahua CAN and will break skin-and do a lot of damage beyond that-if he's so inclined. Sure, he may only have 3/8" long canine teeth, but he's got a powerful neck (for his size) and remember that all dogs have a (proportionally) huge amount of muscle dedicated to working their jaws. Your dog could do a lot of damage, but your training and socialization have made him safe-maybe too safe if the cat regularly beats up on him.

He's bit me 2 or 3 times in a moment of stupid. (Which got him smacked). He didn't break the skin, and I have no doubt he was trying. He's only like 4 or 5 pounds though. Physics aren't on his side.

Agreed about the cat. (But the cat is much bigger too ..)

[driven]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

Its funny that Vick will have a problem finding NFL because of the animal rights lobby and the feelings of the general public towards dogs while Ray Lewis was involved in something more horrific, and is now all over those NFL Network ads. Vick is an idiot, and I hope he learns somethign from his younger brother Marcus (hehe)

Not to mention the 9 players from the Bagels that were arrested last year. Certainly some of those arrests were more "criminal". Not supporting what Vick did (or didn't do ...) but this has lost it's perspective.

Who said PETA wasn't a powerful lobby group.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

But that does NOT mean that they are, by nature, aggressive dogs.

Bah. They are bred to be agressive. They were a breed created for the sole purpose of being agressive. To claim otherwise is just silly.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Again, it is NOT a problem with the dogs, it's a problem with the people who abuse them, whether for fighting or to "look tough" or whatever. If every dog was treated humanely, respectfully, and ethically, we would not have a dog population problem, we would not have a dog violence problem, and we would not need this discussion.

Again, bah. By this logic, it would follow that plastic explosives are not inherently dangerous as they can be used safely by children as modeling clay, and only irresponsible people will blow things up with it. Just because a naturally aggressive and physically dangerous dog can be trained to act in socially acceptable manner does not make these dogs sensible or safe. There is no reason for them to exist- it's time to let the breed die out.