[tie]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Liberals love socialists. It's a brotherhood.

..and he responds..

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I give up, You ain't right in the head.

[selowitch]

Simple fact: North Korea knows we are overextended in Afghanistan and Iraq and don't have the resources, forces, or political will to confront them, so they chose this opportunity to advance their nuclear program, knowing that all Bush could offer is bluster and (phony) belief, like he usually does. Far from enhancing our military security, Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld have totally squandered it and left us vulnerable. We're totally screwed now.

[Cody Dawg]

Like I said, blow them away.

What they don't realize is that China is going to be pissed off about it.

It's their side of the world that they're f*cking with.



I honestly don't believe we really don't give a rat's ass about it at this point beyond a certain extent. Let China deal with them.

[Face Ache]

The next logical step is for the US to attack Iran.

[Cody Dawg]

Honestly, who cares.

This country will just sit back and watch.

This business with North Korea all developed on Bill Clinton's watch. Madeline Albright going over there to buddy up with their leader Kim "Mentally" Ill was the icing on the cake.

Their country is starving and their "leader" has nothing to lose.

On the other hand, when North Korea screws up and has a radioactive issue that drifts over into China and causes China harm then we'll see what China does. China will slap that bitch down so fast he won't know what hit him.

[PER3]

At least Albright had the sense to realise she was dealing with a very shrewd and intelligent opponent, saying that he "knew his brief".

Bush openly insults the man, calling him an "evil midget" (if my memory serves).

That's why he has consistently lost in this game—he has no respect for, or understanding of diplomatic nuance. He is out of his depth—a dangerous, unfocussed, amateur.

[Nicko]

Yet another failure by Bush & Co has come to fruition.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This business with North Korea all developed on Bill Clinton's watch.

I can't wait 'til he's out of office.

[GSixZero]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This business with North Korea all developed on Bill Clinton's watch.

Man... that guy Clinton really sucked it up. Too bad we haven't had anyone around to fix his egregious mistakes for the last six years.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by selowitch

But the fact that we neither killed nor captured him means we failed in Afghanistan. Oh, and the Taliban are coming back, too.

[/b]
Hyperbole

[b]
Clinton and Albright handled NK so much better than these blustering, ignorant fools in the Bush administration.

AHAHAHA If they handled it so much better, why does NK have nukes now?



That's hilarious. Clinton's answer was to throw money at them. They took the money and kept doing what they were doing regardless.

I love leftist revisionist history.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac

Knowing that a country is a problem is different than saying things to intentionally provoke them. I'd say Bush publicly calling them part of the axis of evil has contributed to where we are today.

By the time Bush got into office, it was waaay too late.

Again, lets be a little realistic, and not so eager to blame Bush for every damn thing that happens.

People will start taking you more seriously. I promise.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by selowitch

Simple fact: North Korea knows we are overextended in Afghanistan and Iraq and don't have the resources, forces, or political will to confront them, so they chose this opportunity to advance their nuclear program, knowing that all Bush could offer is bluster and (phony) belief, like he usually does. Far from enhancing our military security, Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld have totally squandered it and left us vulnerable. We're totally screwed now.

No, NK was advancing their Nuke program in the 90s. I honestly believe certain people in here don't have any recollection of history before Bush was in office.

For example

Originally Posted by Nicko

Yet another failure by Bush & Co has come to fruition.

Comedy gold.

Not blaming Clinton directly, but he was told just throwing money at Korea would make a even bigger problem. He was warned. He didn't listen.

He just wanted to put a band-aid there till he was done with his term.

He didn't really think about the future, he just thought about how he was going to get out of hot water THEN.

And guess what, they people who warned him were right.

Sucks we are right, but we are non-the-less.

[Dakar]

I love how at 3am, CNN was reporting on NK, Fox News had the weather.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by PER3

At least Albright had the sense to realise she was dealing with a very shrewd and intelligent opponent, saying that he "knew his brief".
Bush openly insults the man, calling him an "evil midget" (if my memory serves).

Your memory doesn't serve. You're contriving nonsense out of thin air. So... care to try that again? Albright realised he was shrewd (as if that is supposed to account for failed foreign policy, negotiate with the shrewd liar anyway) and Bush says Ill is...

That's why he has consistently lost in this game—he has no respect for, or understanding of diplomatic nuance. He is out of his depth—a dangerous, unfocussed, amateur.

... and of course this critique brought to you by... an amateur. See how easy it is to eat bon-bons while watching CNN and enlighten us all on your military prowess?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I love how at 3am, CNN was reporting on NK, Fox News had the weather.

I had spent hours watching N. Korea coverage on Fox last night. They have to cover the weather at some point. I just popped on the tele and noticed that CNN was talking about Iraq and Fox was talking about N. Korea.

Hmm, they must be different broadcasts.

[Dakar]

The only other time I checked in (maybe 2am or so) it was the journalist round table program on.

I think CNN was on the phone with someone from Washington about NK at that time, too.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

and of course this critique brought to you by... an amateur.

As far as I can tell, we're all amateurs here, unless one of you lunkheads is a fellow at some think-tank like the Brookings Institution without my knowing. But my status as an amateur doesn't prevent me from having an opinion. You can value or devalue my two cents as you please.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Face Ache

The next logical step is for the US to attack Iran.

The only people to whom that comment makes sense are those who don't get much past the headlines of newspapers, the TV evening news shows, TDS/TCR and comic books.

And while it's wonderful how those folks are able to earn a living and afford the price of a computer, that doesn't mean their opinions should count as much as thorough and intellectually honest people's opinions.

[Dakar]

He was joking, you know.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

selowich, the Clintonistas and Jimmy Carter were responsible for allowing NK to get nukes and put America into the position that we're in.

That is completely true. They developed their nuclear technologies during the Clinton administration.

However, Bush and Conservatives have been more than willing to use that as an excuse to do absolutely nothing about North Korea other than tell them that they're on the US' hit list, even if they scrap their nuclear weapons program.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by selowitch

As far as I can tell, we're all amateurs here, unless one of you lunkheads is a fellow at some think-tank like the Brookings Institution without my knowing. But my status as an amateur doesn't prevent me from having an opinion. You can value or devalue my two cents as you please.

I certainly never suggested that amateurs don't have a voice in our system. When that voice includes ad hom statements of the President being "amateur", I take issue with that. If you read my post, that was clearly my point. Unless of course, one of you lunkheads is a fellow at some think-tank like the Strategic Studies Institute.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Again, lets be a little realistic, and not so eager to blame Bush for every damn thing that happens.

Precisely. Let's be a little more eager to blame Clinton for every damn thing that happens.

[ebuddy]

France is upset and is calling for UN Resolutions backed by UN sanctions.

US and Russia have spoken and both feel the need for decisive and coordinated action against N. Korea. i.e. sanctions. If China is on board (and I believe they are), sanctions in this case could have a profound effect on N. Korea.

[Dakar]

It's a real shame that train bombing a few months ago didn't work.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, NK was advancing their Nuke program in the 90s. I honestly believe certain people in here don't have any recollection of history before Bush was in office.

For example


Comedy gold.

Not blaming Clinton directly, but he was told just throwing money at Korea would make a even bigger problem. He was warned. He didn't listen.

He just wanted to put a band-aid there till he was done with his term.

He didn't really think about the future, he just thought about how he was going to get out of hot water THEN.

And guess what, they people who warned him were right.

Sucks we are right, but we are non-the-less.

I remember an episode of Columbo where he caught the murderess, who thought that everyone's thought processes were the same as hers, by getting the murder victim's daughter (her stepdaughter) to pretend to blackmail her. The murderess believed the step daughter could be persuaded to stay silent about certain aspects of her actions which would implicate her in her husband's murder, by paying her with money.

I believe Clinton believed that others can be persuaded in the same way he could be persuaded.

And what motivates Clinton?

Sex. Money. Power. Acclaim.

And while you might say that Repubs (or ALL humans) are similarly motivated, the difference is that there is little about Clinton's performance in the area of foreign policy which strikes you as being primarily motivated by duty or principle.

In that way his foreign opponents would be at an advantage over him.

A committed Communist might feign a money motivation. Clinton might say, "Kim, you are a man after my own heart." And tell his advisors, "this is a guy we can do business with." He'd flash that charming smile and sign the check to NK.

Meanwhile Kim is no less committed to Communism or a desire to develop nuclear weapons, but they are richer for the exchange with the 'brilliant' former president.

Who knows? Maybe Clinton said to just wait until after he was no longer in office before doing whatever NK was going to do.

Bill: Kim, now you and I both know the USA is not going to go to war to stop you from getting nukes but what do I have to do to get you to just be cool and hide your development while I'm in office?

Kim: (Korean lingo) $#*&+$@

Bill: Hmm, that much, huh? Well, you drive a hard bargain, but we have a deal.

(They shake hands)

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar

He was joking, you know.

But it was a joke based on what he and you and many others believes is the truth or close to it.

[Dakar]

Maybe you're right.

[marden]

Originally Posted by goMac

We can't touch North Korea now. As soon as we touch them they'll start lobbing nukes at all their neighbors. Japan, South Korea... they wouldn't care if they were even involved in the military action against them.

Congratulations to the Bush administration for again letting the important issues go for too long until they're a really big mess. If we had been talking to North Korea in the early 2000's maybe this could have been solved. Now not even military action will help.

Just because that is a truISM doesn't make it TRUE.

We CAN touch North Korea. One device tested underground does not necessarily mean they have more of those devices. And having one or more nuclear device does not mean they have the ability to mount them as warheads on missiles.

And even IF they did have multiple devices and they were able to mount them on missiles, we would still be able to touch them but at a greater cost in lives and political fallout.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Maybe you're right.

I certainly am, at least in this instance.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

That is completely true. They developed their nuclear technologies during the Clinton administration.

However, Bush and Conservatives have been more than willing to use that as an excuse to do absolutely nothing about North Korea other than tell them that they're on the US' hit list, even if they scrap their nuclear weapons program.

Ahhh. So, in terms of the jihadists doing nothing is the best course. But with the NK's doing nothing was bad.

Your lesson is as clear as mud.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by marden

I certainly am, at least in this instance.

Apparently talking to you like yourself is lost on you.

Not surprising.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by marden

Ahhh. So, in terms of the jihadists doing nothing is the best course. But with the NK's doing nothing was bad.

Your lesson is as clear as mud.

Follow along abermarden, this is going to get complicated...

1. Invading Afghanistan was good, necessary, prudent, and initially successful. Back-slaps all around.

2. Then, while we are still in Afghanistan, Bush labels Iraq, Iran, and North Korea as the Axis of Evil, essentially saying, "you're next, 'cause you're evil--it's nothing really specific about you, you're just evil, can't be helped. Expect to be bombed sometime."

3. The Bush Administration then focuses 100% of its foreign policy attention on Iraq, ignoring North Korea completely.

It's not that I thought that the Axis of Evil speech was a good idea in the first place, but once you label three countries squarely in some sort of evil pseudo-alliance, then yes, ignoring one of the parties who you know has been trying to build a nuclear program in the past is a clear, clear mistake. Bush basically gave them 4 years notice that they would be bombed, or worse. To not follow that up with real action or diplomatic pressure is just incompetent.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Apparently talking to you like yourself is lost on you.

Not surprising.

Junior, you regularly throw what you might call fast balls my way and when I don't swing at them you think it's because I can't turn on them.

[marden]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey

Follow along abermarden, this is going to get complicated...

1. Invading Afghanistan was good, necessary, prudent, and initially successful. Back-slaps all around.

2. Then, while we are still in Afghanistan, Bush labels Iraq, Iran, and North Korea as the Axis of Evil, essentially saying, "you're next, 'cause you're evil--it's nothing really specific about you, you're just evil, can't be helped. Expect to be bombed sometime."

3. The Bush Administration then focuses 100% of its foreign policy attention on Iraq, ignoring North Korea completely.

It's not that I thought that the Axis of Evil speech was a good idea in the first place, but once you label three countries squarely in some sort of evil pseudo-alliance, then yes, ignoring one of the parties who you know has been trying to build a nuclear program in the past is a clear, clear mistake. Bush basically gave them 4 years notice that they would be bombed, or worse. To not follow that up with real action or diplomatic pressure is just incompetent.

Betcha can't back that up.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by marden

Junior, you regularly throw what you might call fast balls my way and when I don't swing at them you think it's because I can't turn on them.

The sound you hear is your post whiffing.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by marden

Just because that is a truISM doesn't make it TRUE.

We CAN touch North Korea. One device tested underground does not necessarily mean they have more of those devices. And having one or more nuclear device does not mean they have the ability to mount them as warheads on missiles.

And even IF they did have multiple devices and they were able to mount them on missiles, we would still be able to touch them but at a greater cost in lives and political fallout.

We don't know that for sure do we? Do you wanna bet the lives of everyone in Seoul or Tokyo? They successfully tested a nuclear device and I think that's a good indication they have the ability to produce more. As other's have posted, it's a shame we wasted our efforts on Iraq and ignored the country that actually had WMD.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by marden

Betcha can't back that up.

Back what up? We called three countries evil, and then we invaded one of them. The strain of it on our military was great enough that we have been locked down there and can't threaten regime change anywhere else. I guess the Bush administration thought that North Korea and Iran would be too busy sh!tting their pants to go through with the best gamble they had for survival, which was to build a nuclear weapon.

[Dakar]

I might note we invaded the least capable country of the 3 of manufacturing nuclear weapons.

Unless we invade Iran after the elections, I suspect we'll have shown the world the best deterrent to a US invasion is having nuclear weapons.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar

The sound you hear is your post whiffing.

This is a picture of you huffing.


Cat Huffing.

WARNING: DO NOT TRY TO HUFF A MATURE CAT WITHOUT PLENTY OF EXPERIENCE WITH KITTENS! IT MAY CAUSE A LETHAL OVERDOSE!

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Kitten_Huffing

[Dakar]

It's ok, I can stop anytime I want to.

[Cody Dawg]

I love how at 3am, CNN was reporting on NK, Fox News had the weather.

That's because North Korea doesn't matter.

BTW, Kim Jong Mentally Ill is a crossdresser. Madeline Albright talked about how he loved her shoes and tried them on and wore women's shoes on a couple of occasions.



The guy is definitely just plain crazy. Probably all the mercury in his water. Bush will never meet with him because then he'd have to shake his hand and who knows where his hands have been.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by marden

But it was a joke based on what he and you and many others believes is the truth or close to it.

Okay, now you're confusing me.

If you truly *were* abe/aberdeenwriter/mojo2/whatever, you'd have had plenty of time to figure out how Face Ache works.
Then again, your complete lack of any sense of sarcasm and complete incomprehension of the irreverent makes claims that you ARE the same guy all the more credible.

Of course, that would also mean you were lying, and we all know the real aberdeenwriter'd never do that (again) - would you now?

[marden]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

We don't know that for sure do we? Do you wanna bet the lives of everyone in Seoul or Tokyo? They successfully tested a nuclear device and I think that's a good indication they have the ability to produce more. As other's have posted, it's a shame we wasted our efforts on Iraq and ignored the country that actually had WMD.

Ladies and Gents, let's be VERY clear about the levels of danger here.

Radical Islamic Jihad is a global force which has an evergreen appeal to untold numbers of millions around the world who, at any time, might pick up the book, read it's instructions and follow those instructions to kill and try to conquer all non-Muslims and all moderate Muslims.
With or without nuclear weapons they have presented a threat to millions and to the very idea of man's self determination and governance. They must be stopped in their tracks and not allowed to progress unopposed or the fate of the world would be jeopardized.

North Korea is an impoverished Communist rogue nation with less than a few nukes with no ability to inspire converts around the world or a philosophy that would spread like a cancer and put the world at risk.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

Get a grip. Do your homework. Return and discuss this reasonably.

[Spliffdaddy]

left point of view:

NK ---- Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy, OMG Dubya should have attacked them. wtf was he waiting for?


Iran ---- Diplomacy is the answer.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I might note we invaded the least capable country of the 3 of manufacturing nuclear weapons.

Unless we invade Iran after the elections, I suspect we'll have shown the world the best deterrent to a US invasion is having nuclear weapons.

If you think just because NK has nukes they are as dangerous as Iraq or Iran you need some more time in study hall.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

left point of view:

NK ---- Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy, OMG Dubya should have attacked them. wtf was he waiting for?


Iran ---- Diplomacy is the answer.

And that's the well informed lefties.

Some folks aren't even at that level of misunderstanding yet. These laggards think there's not even been any diplomacy.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by marden

If you think just because NK has nukes they are as dangerous as Iraq or Iran you need some more time in study hall.

If you think because the Global Jihadist Agenda™ is dangerous, that Iraq was dangerous, then you really need more time in study hall.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by marden

If you think just because NK has nukes they are as dangerous as Iraq or Iran you need some more time in study hall.

I hear your ad hominem, but I don't see anything to back it up.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

left point of view:

NK ---- Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy, OMG Dubya should have attacked them. wtf was he waiting for?


Iran ---- Diplomacy is the answer.

What your missing is that some of these recommendations are from before Bush's Axis of Evil Speech, or before the invasion of Iraq, and some are from after.

It's not as simple as "attack," or "diplomacy." It's about perceived U.S. strength and credibility.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I hear your ad hominem, but I don't see anything to back it up.

I regularly forget to put in the qualifier "you all" or "your side." It's really not meant personally, I just think many of you think alike and I'll refer to one post or another and think of that poster not as an individual but as a representative of a group.

So, I apologize if I insulted you, particularly.

My intent was to address all who think as you do.

There. Does that make you feel any better?

As for backing it up, you will have it backed up in time. But don't you think this says all you need to know???

Ladies and Gents, let's be VERY clear about the levels of danger here.

Radical Islamic Jihad is a global force which has an evergreen appeal to untold numbers of millions around the world who, at any time, might pick up the book, read it's instructions and follow those instructions to kill and try to conquer all non-Muslims and all moderate Muslims.
With or without nuclear weapons they have presented a threat to millions and to the very idea of man's self determination and governance. They must be stopped in their tracks and not allowed to progress unopposed or the fate of the world would be jeopardized.

North Korea is an impoverished Communist rogue nation with less than a few nukes with no ability to inspire converts around the world or a philosophy that would spread like a cancer and put the world at risk.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

Get a grip. Do your homework. Return and discuss this reasonably.