[Doofy]

And when I say "Monsanto", I mean all your crop genetics scientists.

Bees face extinction as billions of colonies die worldwide | Mail Online

The world faces a future with little meat and no cotton because of a catastrophic collapse in bee colonies, experts have warned.
Many vital crops are dependent on pollination by honeybees, but latest figures show a third failed to survive the winter in the U.S.

Genetically Modified Crops Implicated in Honeybee Colony Collapse Disorder

John McDonald, a bee keeper in Pennsyvania with a background in biology, speculated that genetically modified crops could play a role in CCD. Although the government constantly reassures us that these genetic manipulations are safe for both humans and the environment, his hope is that looking more closely at these issues might raise questions about those assumptions.

The common bacterium, bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) supplies the most commonly used segment of transgenic DNA. Bt has been used for decades by farmers and gardeners to control crop damage from butterfy larvae. Now, instead of spraying this bacterium directly on the crops, where it is eaten only by the target insects, the genes containing the insecticidal traits are incorporated into the genome of the plant itself. As the genetically modified plant grows, these Bt genes are replicated in every cell of the plant, including pollen. Therefore, every cell of each GM plant contains its own poison aimed to kill the target insect. The target insects consume some portion of the plant, then once ingested, the toxin produced by the Bt genes causes crystallization in the guts of boring larvae and thus death. The primary toxin is a protein called Cry1Ab. In the case of field corn, the targeted insects are stem and root-borers and butterfly larvae.

Although scientists "assure" us that bees (hymenopterans) are not affected, there are Bt variants available that target beetles, flies and mosquitoes. There is indisputable proof that Cry1Ab is present in beehives. Beekeepers spray Bt under hive lids to control the wax moth because the larvae cause messy webs on the honey. Canadian beekeepers have noted the disappearance of this moth even in untreated hives, apparently the result of bees ingesting Cry1Ab while foraging in GM canola plants.

Bees forage heavily on corn flowers to obtain pollen for the rearing of young bees. These pollen grains also contain the Bt genes of the parent plant, because they are present in the cells from which pollen forms. Mr. McDonald believes it may be possible that while Cry1Ab has no direct lethal effect on young bees, there may be some sub-lethal effect, such as immune suppression, acting as a slow killer.

...

Tens of millions of acres of genetically modified crops are allowing the Bt genes to move off crop fields and contaminate other flowers from which bees gather flowers. "Given that nearly every bite of food that we eat has a pollinator, the seriousness of this emerging problem could dwarf all previous food disruptions". He proposed an experiment to compare colony losses of bees from regions where there are no GM crops to losses of colonies where they are exposed. He wanted to put test hives where GM crops are so distant from the hives that the foraging worker bees would have no exposure to GM crops. Researches readily dismissed his ideas and no one followed through with such an experiment.

At this point, he decided to do his own investigation at his own expense. He established 8 colonies in new wooden hives to ensure no possible disease transfer from old hives. The bees were fed continuously with sugar syrup until the hives were placed at the selected locations.

"At both sites the flowers of goldenrod provided ample pasturage, with the honey flow commencing in the middle of August and tapering off by the second week in October. Medium-depth empty honey storage supers (a super is the part of the beehive used to collect honey) were put on the hives at this time in addition to the three brood chambers already there. By the simple expedient of lifting the hives from behind, progress could be roughly monitored.

This monitoring showed that the hives of the farmland bees, while numerous, were not gaining weight. Meanwhile, the non-farm colonies steadily gained weight. This part of the experiment was terminated Oct. 14 with the removal of the honey storage supers, with these results: The farmland bees had not even started to work in the honey supers and will require extensive feeding before winter sets in. The non-farm bee colonies produced, in total, nearly 200 pounds of extra honey in addition to about 150 pounds per hive stored in the over-wintering brood supers. These colonies will be left in place to see whether the die-off of last season is repeated. These results should encourage new research to determine what factor or factors are present in farm country to cause such a discrepancy in honey production."

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." - Ian Malcolm.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Well, we're screwed. Fun while it lasted.

[OldManMac]

But, man doesn't have any impact on the earth; it's impossible.

[imitchellg5]

I've written 122 pages this semester so far about Monsanto. Yeah, they creep me out. What bothers me the most about these corporations is that instead of actively searching for solutions to problems, they just come out with a new drug to suppress the problem. Nobody ever looks at the cause of the problem, they just try and stamp it out.

[Brien]

But it's the Future™:

[ShortcutToMoncton]

But how should we go about stopping them from bringing this higher-efficiency product to the free market? We know that government regulation cannot be the answer

[Phileas]

Monsanto are evil incarnate. They need to be stopped, as fast as possible.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

But, man doesn't have any impact on the earth; it's impossible.

The double standards are pretty funny.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And when I say "Monsanto", I mean all your crop genetics scientists.

Bees face extinction as billions of colonies die worldwide | Mail Online
Genetically Modified Crops Implicated in Honeybee Colony Collapse Disorder
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." - Ian Malcolm.

I agree with you. What do you think should be done about this?

(I feel I should warn you that your opinion is jumping 2-feet into environmentalist territory)

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The double standards are pretty funny.

No double-standards at all. MMGW is bullshit. This isn't.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I agree with you. What do you think should be done about this?

How's about letting organic farmers who've had their crop tainted by GM gene from adjacent GM growers be allowed to sue the offending farmer for everything they have?

Nobody will ever plant the stuff again if they think they're going to lose their shirt over it.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

(I feel I should warn you that your opinion is jumping 2-feet into environmentalist territory)

No it ain't. It's where it's always been - conservative (in a non-political sense)...

conservative |kənˈsərvətiv; -vəˌtiv|
adjective
holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

How's about letting organic farmers who've had their crop tainted by GM gene from adjacent GM growers be allowed to sue the offending farmer for everything they have?

Nobody will ever plant the stuff again if they think they're going to lose their shirt over it.

That's pretty much *exactly* the same position as the anti-GM environmentalists.

No it ain't. It's where it's always been - conservative (in a non-political sense)...

I've always found this particular dichotomy of the concept of dichotomy humorous. Most environmentalists are conservatives ... at least, in so far as the environment goes.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I've always found this particular dichotomy of the concept of dichotomy humorous. Most environmentalists are conservatives ... at least, in so far as the environment goes.

Bizarre, ain't it?

But then there's two types of environmentalists. Those who mean it, and those using it for political or social gain. Observe the Penn and Teller BS episode where they attend an environmentalista rally and manage to acquire zillions of signatures in support for the banning of water. Says it all.

I have no problem at all with those who mean it... But I find them to be a very rare breed.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And when I say "Monsanto", I mean all your crop genetics scientists.

Bees face extinction as billions of colonies die worldwide | Mail Online



Genetically Modified Crops Implicated in Honeybee Colony Collapse Disorder



"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." - Ian Malcolm.

OK, those were posted by nutbags, and it turns out, Colony Collapse Disorder was very prevalent in Europe where GMO crops were not allowed at all. Additionally, hives that had CCD would not be re-inhabitable by a healthy swarm until it was hit with disease killing radiation, likely implicating a disease rather than toxins from GMOs.

All in all, don't be a luddite. GMOs allow us to feed more people using smaller amount of land.

[lpkmckenna]

I'm entirely unconvinced of this "GM foods - bee extinction" link.

[Wiskedjak]

I'm no more convinced that GM foods = bee extinction than I am about links between other human activities and global warming ... which is to say that I'm willing to consider it to be possible and the potential dangers severe enough to warrant possible action.

But, I'm not a fan of Monsanto's corporate practices (suing farmers adjacent to Monsanto fields for using Monsanto seeds without permission) and I'm willing to accept Doofy's environmentalist leanings here that we should be cautious about genetic modification.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

OK, those were posted by nutbags, and it turns out, Colony Collapse Disorder was very prevalent in Europe where GMO crops were not allowed at all. Additionally, hives that had CCD would not be re-inhabitable by a healthy swarm until it was hit with disease killing radiation, likely implicating a disease rather than toxins from GMOs.

You didn't actually read that second link, did you? Reckons it's likely that the GM lowers immune response to diseases.

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

All in all, don't be a luddite. GMOs allow us to feed more people using smaller amount of land.

So does going veggie. Or eating smaller portions. Amerika.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No double-standards at all. MMGW is bullshit. This isn't.

Of course not, this one happens to fit your point of view.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Of course not, this one happens to fit your point of view.

So what's my agenda? Seems like you're suggesting that I have one and that it's convenient that some things fit in with my point of view and some don't.

Come on, put up or shut up. And afterwards, we'll delve into how much Malcolm Reynolds would despise your politics.

[besson3c]

Do you look anything like Malcolm Reynolds/Fillion in real life, Doofy?

Also, what happened to your Ghostbusters chick?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Do you look anything like Malcolm Reynolds/Fillion in real life, Doofy?

No Bess, I don't. I'm much better looking.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No Bess, I don't. I'm much better looking.

I don't doubt that! How is Blair doing, Doofy?

(For those of you that don't know who Blair is, Doofy apparently has a pet monkey he named Blair for obvious reasons)

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So what's my agenda? Seems like you're suggesting that I have one and that it's convenient that some things fit in with my point of view and some don't.

Well, one might wonder why someone so opposed to one environmental issue (global warming) is so concerned about another issue (colony collapse disorder). I would say both have clear evidence that something is happening but evidence pointing to causes are subject to interpretation.

CCD is clear a serious issue, but GM isn't the only potential culprit. Other suspects include natural processes (competition, disease), environmental change, malnutrition, pesticides, migratory beekeeping and cell phone radiation. I wonder, would you be as concerned about Colony Collapse Disorder if genetic modification were eliminated as a suspect?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Well, one might wonder why someone so opposed to one environmental issue (global warming) is so concerned about another issue (colony collapse disorder).

Could it be that I believe that one is BS and the other isn't, based on the information I have available to me?

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

CCD is clear a serious issue, but GM isn't the only potential culprit. Other suspects include natural processes (competition, disease), environmental change, malnutrition, pesticides, migratory beekeeping and cell phone radiation. I wonder, would you be as concerned about Colony Collapse Disorder if genetic modification were eliminated as a suspect?

I'm not concerned. There's loads of bees where I am.
Just giving you guys a heads-up, that's all.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You didn't actually read that second link, did you? Reckons it's likely that the GM lowers immune response to diseases.



So does going veggie. Or eating smaller portions. Amerika.

The second link was from early 2009, and has mostly been ruled out due to CCD occurring in places that banned genetically modified crops. Totally, such as the European Union.

Using GMO crops increases yield while reducing energy input. They do not require a life style changes, which are difficult to implement on a large scale (like in a society). Although there hasn't been any followed and scientifically proven cases of GMO related ailments, I wouldn't mind seeing GMOs being regulated like drugs. Let the FDA sort out if the modifications are dangerous, not people who talk about fertilizing plants with their menses. Luddites are awful.

Now saying that, Monsanto's legal practices are abhorrant.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

The second link was from early 2009, and has mostly been ruled out due to CCD occurring in places that banned genetically modified crops. Totally, such as the European Union.

Here's an article from 2005.
UK growers impressed by Spain's GM experience - 28/10/2005 - Farmers Weekly

Doesn't look like GM is banned in the EU.

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

Using GMO crops increases yield while reducing energy input.

At what cost? There's no free lunch.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Monsanto are evil incarnate. They need to be stopped, as fast as possible.

Seconded.

-t

[Spheric Harlot]

^ Thirded.

There are very few things in the world that make me as angry as Monsanto's doings.

[mattyb]

Yeah, pretty sure that GM stuff isn't banned in Europe. Hence the French farmer blocking traffic every now and again when somebody says lets test so-and-so-GM-crop. Also, due to the French farmer putting so much shite on their crops, honey produced in towns is now better quality than honey produced in the country-side. And there's more : the French farmer is the greatest polluter of French water. And Europe throws money at them for doing it.

Sure that I saw some documentary about flies being far better pollinators than bees. Haven't been able to find a link though.

Anyway Monsanto are scum. They may never have been sanctioned or found guilty of something, but there's far too many dodgy events surrounding their business.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So what's my agenda? Seems like you're suggesting that I have one and that it's convenient that some things fit in with my point of view and some don't.

You attack scientific process saying it's useless and worthless when it's something you disagree with, then you're suddenly a cheerleader when it's something you agree with.

The same scientific scrutiny that goes into studying global climate change is used to determine the validity of genetically modified crops.

I'm very much against GMO crops, by the way. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but my uncle is a farmer. He's one of the main suppliers of almonds for Blue Diamond. Over the past 20 years he's moved away from pesticides to seasonal crop rotation. His yields have dropped some, but he has infinite peace of mind that what he is growing is safe for him to work with, and more importantly, is safe for his kids to be around. He also gets to work with variety of different crops each quarter and not just almonds (though almonds still make up the majority of his crops.)

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Come on, put up or shut up.

Oh, please. I show you the math and you still question it. I put up as much as possible, you simply choose to ignore it.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And afterwards, we'll delve into how much Malcolm Reynolds would despise your politics.

It's just a TV show. I'm a fan of earlier Romero zombie flicks, but it doesn't mean I always agree with the sociopolitical undertones of the movies. I can root for Captain Reynolds when the TV show makes clear distinctions between good and evil.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

You attack scientific process saying it's useless and worthless when it's something you disagree with, then you're suddenly a cheerleader when it's something you agree with.

The same scientific scrutiny that goes into studying global climate change is used to determine the validity of genetically modified crops.

No, it doesn't. Both are related to politics and how the politicians want the data to be. Have you not grasped this concept yet?

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Oh, please. I show you the math and you still question it. I put up as much as possible, you simply choose to ignore it.

I told you that in reality, nothing is impossible. And you chose to ignore it.
So instead of adding to the anti-Monsanto feeling of this thread, you and the old boy come in here to troll me.

[imitchellg5]

Anyone interested in this thread should watch Food, Inc. It's a very good documentary that focuses on GMO food and Monsanto.

I've got no love for Monsanto, but I watched a segment on Discovery Channel last week about bees collapsing due to mite infestation.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No Bess, I don't. I'm much better looking.

pixplsthxbye

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

pixplsthxbye

Not Doof but almost identical (as in, a bystander who didn't know either of us wouldn't be able to tell us apart without closer inspection).

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I told you that in reality, nothing is impossible. And you chose to ignore it.

No, I answered you directly back on Page 2 when you stated:

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Originally Posted by Doofy 

A basic understanding of high-end theoretical physics would tell you that nothing is impossible.

I said next to impossible In any event, the mantle makes up nearly 85% of our planet's total volume, there isn't enough water on this entire planet to split up tectonic plates.

To which you ignored, and complained bout an insignificant amount of water not be accounted for, then complained about your well which actually is accounted for.

If your previous arguments are anything to judge by, you've probably misinterpreted most of the available data, came to the most unlikely conclusion, promptly ignore anyone who shows you otherwise, then somehow convince yourself that the "evidence" you've gathered is somehow the infallible will of a Magic Tea Pot.

[andi*pandi]

Ah. Fans of Nathan Fillion can relax.

Back to the bees. Between the bees and the bats it's not going so well.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

No, I answered you directly back on Page 2 when you stated:

To which you ignored, and complained bout an insignificant amount of water not be accounted for, then complained about your well which actually is accounted for.

Are you this whiney in real life, ole?

I don't recall "complaining". Is that what you think everyone who doesn't agree with you is doing? Complaining? I thought it was "observation" and "conversation".
How odd.

[olePigeon]

While I don't care for GMO crops, the problem with bee colonies collapsing has been going on since the 1970s, long before cell phones and genetically modified foods. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of these new crops contributing to the problem, but I doubt they're the sole reason.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Not Doof but almost identical (as in, a bystander who didn't know either of us wouldn't be able to tell us apart without closer inspection).

Love the Kari Byron hair.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Is that what you think everyone who doesn't agree with you is doing? Complaining?

No, but your complaining does.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And I don't recall any scientist ever popping up to check the water levels in my well. So is this a guess? It is, isn't it?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Love the Kari Byron hair.

OK, but what about Mustaine's? Do you like that too?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

No, but your complaining does.

That ain't complaining. That's observation.
No wonder it's so bleedin' difficult to have a conversation with you if you think that that's "complaining".

[The Final Dakar]

This thread is more fun than a swift kick to the groin.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

This thread is more fun than a swift kick to the groin.

Sorry. I should have named it something more fitting, like "Dakar come in here, this is a fun thread".

[The Final Dakar]

Ooo, so ornery. Turning on the gallery!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Anyone interested in this thread should watch Food, Inc. It's a very good documentary that focuses on GMO food and Monsanto.

Yeah, great documentary!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Sorry. I should have named it something more fitting, like "Dakar come in here, this is a fun thread".

I would know not to come into this thread if you had titled it accordingly, it would probably be full of care bears having sex with each other or about the Jonas Brothers or something.