[JLFanboy]

While I was hoping that the iMac update would include Blu-ray support, I wasn't expecting it. Good thing, too.

Here's the question, though. Let's say I buy the new 24" iMac (which I very well might). Is watching hi-def discs as simple as a future update to the DVD Player app and an external or internal Blu-ray drive upgrade? The screen is hi-def. The Mac supports optical audio out.

I confess ignorance when it comes to system requirements needed to watch high definition discs. Is this new iMac up to the task? Bottom line is, I want one now. But if I'm shooting myself in the foot by buying too early, I'd just as soon wait until next year (or later ) to buy a new model with Blu-ray support.

Any thoughts?

[mduell]

Depends on what the player software requires... it could require HDCP, which the iMac doesn't have, or it could allow degraded playback without HDCP, or it could work just fine.

[JLFanboy]

What's HDCP? Sorry.

[imitchellg5]

High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection. Think of it as a sort of DRM. You can't play it without a screen that is certified to play it. Don't be sorry either, this is what we are here for

[P]

Do you know for sure that the new iMacs don't support HDCP? Source?

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by P 

Do you know for sure that the new iMacs don't support HDCP? Source?

I'm sure the new Radeons and Geforce cards support HDCP. Problem here is the DVD Player (in Leopard too) doesn't support playback from commercial Blu-ray or HD-DVD discs. Only normal DVDs with HD encoded video on them.

[P]

That's not the same thing. HDCP is a hardware feature, something that has to be supported by both the GPU and the display. The GPU supports it (and so did the old 7600GT), but the question is if the display supports it or not. That depends on if Apple has bothered with the certification process or not.

[JLFanboy]

Just reading around, and found this review, which says that HDCP support IS built in.

The more and more I think about it, though, the more I think I'm going to wait to buy until Steve gets up on stage and says "the new SuperDrives support Blu-ray too." I've got an older G5 iMac, and while there are a number of features of the new model that make me drool, Blu-ray is the deal breaker.

[Cletus989]

Don't the imacs use toshiba dives? So wouldn't they go HD-dvd?

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Cletus989 

Don't the imacs use toshiba dives? So wouldn't they go HD-dvd?

Apple is waiting for the final Blu-ray spec and then will add the Blu-ray option.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

I'm sure the new Radeons and Geforce cards support HDCP. Problem here is the DVD Player (in Leopard too) doesn't support playback from commercial Blu-ray or HD-DVD discs. Only normal DVDs with HD encoded video on them.

Originally Posted by P 

That's not the same thing. HDCP is a hardware feature, something that has to be supported by both the GPU and the display. The GPU supports it (and so did the old 7600GT), but the question is if the display supports it or not.

Most of the GPUs in the current and last generation can support HDCP, but that doesn't mean every card based on them does support HDCP. Supporting HDCP requires an additional encryption chip on the graphics card, and I haven't seen any evidence that any Mac graphics card has that extra chip.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Apple is waiting for the final Blu-ray spec and then will add the Blu-ray option.

The final (1.0) Blu-ray spec was released about a year and a half ago...

[kenna]

If in the future I wanted blu-ray or HD-DVD would it be possible for me to buy a somewhat external drive and hook it up to the iMac? Would this make the iMac untidy?

I really would love to use my iMac for DVDs I have a lot of them, but in say 2 or 3 years time when they become obsolete I will probably venture into HD DVD/Blu Ray, so whilst its not a problem now.....i'd like to know if its future proof if possible anyone? Thank you!!!

[mfbernstein]

Several companies are already shipping external BluRay drives. Assuming the new iMac is HDCP compliant, you should be good to go.

[JLFanboy]

Well, there are drives, but no software. As of now, the DVD Player app doesn't support Blu-ray or HD DVD. So even though the disc would appear on the desktop, I couldn't actually watch the movie.

Also, I don't have a link, but I'm almost positive Apple is on the list of hardware companies that are backing Blu-ray technology. Adding to that the relationship between Apple and Buena Vista, who release exclusively on Blu-ray, I think it's assured that Apple is going with the Blu. Eventually.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by JLFanboy 

Well, there are drives, but no software. As of now, the DVD Player app doesn't support Blu-ray or HD DVD. So even though the disc would appear on the desktop, I couldn't actually watch the movie.

Also, I don't have a link, but I'm almost positive Apple is on the list of hardware companies that are backing Blu-ray technology. Adding to that the relationship between Apple and Buena Vista, who release exclusively on Blu-ray, I think it's assured that Apple is going with the Blu. Eventually.

DVD Player.app already supports HD DVDs produced by DVD Studio Pro. (These have no DRM, and use H.264. VC-1 and DRM are not supported.) Although these discs represent a very restricted form of HD DVD, these discs do meet HD DVD specs, and will play back in standalone HD DVD players as well.

[Cletus989]

"Even though Apple sits on the Blu-ray Board of Directors, its DVD Studio Pro software supports authoring HD DVD media."

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Eug 

DVD Player.app already supports HD DVDs produced by DVD Studio Pro. (These have no DRM, and use H.264. VC-1 and DRM are not supported.) Although these discs represent a very restricted form of HD DVD, these discs do meet HD DVD specs, and will play back in standalone HD DVD players as well.

DVD Player will play back unprotected h.264 from any media. DVD Studio Pro produces HD video that can be burned on to HD-DVD, Blu-ray and regular DVDs that will play in many HD-DVD and Blu-ray players. Even iMovie produces HD video that can play in next gen players. You just need to get the codec right and have drivers for your next gen drive so you can burn the video (from the Finder if not elsewhere).

What DVD Player lacks is support for commercial HD discs.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Cletus989 

"Even though Apple sits on the Blu-ray Board of Directors, its DVD Studio Pro software supports authoring HD DVD media."

It supports media that can be written to any blue laser drive if the drive has Mac drivers. Apple uses abbreviations SD DVD and HD DVD for resolution purposes inside the app.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by mduell 

The final (1.0) Blu-ray spec was released about a year and a half ago...

I was thinking the 2.0 spec featuring BD-Live because of the internet features. At the same time Jobs could be delaying next gen HD optical media because he wants to look like he was responsible for the take off of HD over the net. In his iDVD 08 presentation he said "For those who still like to use optical media..." in the context of how it would be better for everyone to watch video over the net.

[PaperNotes]

Will add of course that we can play back all next gen media right now if you have a HD-DVD or Blu-ray drive. You have to boot in to Windows and use Power DVD Ultra.

[gostan]

The existing Blu-ray drives are so slow to load discs that you should be happy that Apple has not yet included one in the new IMac.

[P]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Most of the GPUs in the current and last generation can support HDCP, but that doesn't mean every card based on them does support HDCP. Supporting HDCP requires an additional encryption chip on the graphics card, and I haven't seen any evidence that any Mac graphics card has that extra chip.

According to this, what you're saying is the case for previous generations, but that the Radeon X1x00 generation GPUs no longer need the extra chip. Presumably that is the case for the HD 2x00 generation as well. That article doesn't have a response from nVidia, but I seem to remember reading that the facelifted 7 boards (the 7600s and 7900s, but not the 7800s) have the same setup of not requiring an extra chip.

This still doesn't answer the question of whether Apple has decided to enable the feature, but it implies that it would be at worst a firmware flash away if not - for the video-out port, at least.

[mduell]

I don't see where that link says the newer chips no longer need the extra HDCP chip, but to be honest I only skimmed it.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

DVD Player will play back unprotected h.264 from any media.

Incorrect. DVD Player.app will only play back H.264 when properly formatted in a proper HVDVD_TS folder. Otherwise it won't work.

DVD Studio Pro produces HD video that can be burned on to HD-DVD, Blu-ray and regular DVDs that will play in many HD-DVD and Blu-ray players.

Incorrect. These HD DVD discs produced by DVD Studio Pro will only play in HD DVD players (and DVD Player.app). They do not work in Blu-ray players.

Even iMovie produces HD video that can play in next gen players. You just need to get the codec right and have drivers for your next gen drive so you can burn the video (from the Finder if not elsewhere).

The HD DVD discs produced by DVD Studio Pro meet the official HD DVD spec, and play in standalone HD DVD players. No separate computer is required. One does not install codecs and drivers on standalone HD DVD players obviously.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It supports media that can be written to any blue laser drive if the drive has Mac drivers. Apple uses abbreviations SD DVD and HD DVD for resolution purposes inside the app.

Again, "HD DVD" means "HD DVD".

This is what Apple itself has to say:

"DVD Studio Pro 4 lets you create industry-standard images for SD and HD DVD replication"

ie. Stop making stuff up already.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Incorrect. DVD Player.app will only play back H.264 when properly formatted in a proper HVDVD_TS folder. Otherwise it won't work.

I know that I just didn't mention the folder structure.

Incorrect. These HD DVD discs produced by DVD Studio Pro will only play in HD DVD players (and DVD Player.app). They do not work in Blu-ray players.

Incorrect. DVD Studio Pro can create HD on DVD discs that work on DVD Player.app, and several HD-DVD and Blu-ray players if the file format and codec is right. PS3 can play mp4 HD files right off a HDD, memory stick or Blu-ray drive.

Again, "HD DVD" means "HD DVD".

Not inside the app which I have at the office. When we see the convert SD DVD to HD DVD option it doesn't mean the HD-DVD disc format. It means high definition resolution. You can record that HD resolution video to any medium. I said this 1 billion times to you but you want to be the master without experience of it so go ahead.

I also mentioned before that the convert SD DVD to HD DVD option was there and worded the same before HD-DVD support came to the app. You have no answer for that.

This is what Apple itself has to say:

"DVD Studio Pro 4 lets you create industry-standard images for SD and HD DVD replication"

I quoted Apple saying you can export to any blue laser format. iMovie can also export HD that can be recorded to any blue laser drive. So can Quicktime Pro. All you need is the drivers for the drive to work with a Mac and then burn the video to the disc. You don't have to burn from DVD Studio Pro. The Finder will do.

You want to twist and use intimidation so nobody will mention Blu-ray because you are against the format because it has big corporations behind it that you don't like. Your problem and argument is not rational.

[PaperNotes]

Here you are, Eug. Don't accuse me of making stuff up when you never used the app. If you don't believe me go ask around all the pros on the web.

Apple DVD Studio Pro 4

terms of authoring HD, DVD Studio Pro offers essentially standard DVD authoring, but at high-definition resolutions. It can be used to author HD discs, SD discs or hybrids that can be played in any player when burned to standard discs. (Standard- and high-def content are encoded to separate "_TS" folders, so standard players will simply ignore the high-def content.) As for any enhancements to interactivity or capabilities in the new HD specifications, these are things we'll have to wait to gain access to until the specifications are finalized and incorporated into DVD Studio Pro. The current release allows you to author and burn HD content and to use current-generation interactivity, but no additional HD-specific functionality is built in as yet.

Look again at the menu options.



When you want to output to a blue laser writer it doesn't make any specific mention of HD-DVD or Blu-ray formats. It just says blue laser disc media.



Final Cut Studio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Final Cut Pro supports nearly all High Definition formats (HDV, DVCPRO HD, AVCHD, and uncompressed HD) and Soundtrack Pro and Motion can import these formats too, where they can be played back on an external monitor. DVD Studio Pro 4 can burn HD content onto standard, HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray discs

And now evidence that when Apple says HD DVD they mean HD on a DVD, and not just HD-DVD disc format.

In this menu we choose the h.264 for HD DVD option. At the bottom of the panel it says how many minutes of HD video will fit on a regular DVD-5 not a HD-DVD disc. That video can be played in any player (Blu-ray, DVD player.app, PS3, etc) that supports HD resolutions not just a HD-DVD player.



DVD Studio Pro doesn't have official support for Blu-ray's spec yet but there are easy work arounds.

[Eug]

terms of authoring HD, DVD Studio Pro offers essentially standard DVD authoring, but at high-definition resolutions. It can be used to author HD discs, SD discs or hybrids that can be played in any player when burned to standard discs. (Standard- and high-def content are encoded to separate "_TS" folders, so standard players will simply ignore the high-def content.) As for any enhancements to interactivity or capabilities in the new HD specifications, these are things we'll have to wait to gain access to until the specifications are finalized and incorporated into DVD Studio Pro. The current release allows you to author and burn HD content and to use current-generation interactivity, but no additional HD-specific functionality is built in as yet.

Heh. That link is perfect, as it's clear you don't even know what that means.

The HD DVD discs created by DVD Studio Pro are industry standard HD DVDs, but do not support the optional advanced interactivity layer of the HD DVD format.

In this menu we choose the h.264 for HD DVD option. At the bottom of the panel it says how many minutes of HD video will fit on a regular DVD-5 not a HD-DVD disc. That video can be played in any player (Blu-ray, DVD player.app, PS3, etc) that supports HD resolutions not just a HD-DVD player.

I guess you don't realize that HD DVD format discs on DVD media can meet the official HD DVD spec. I would suggest you read about 3X DVD which is form of HD DVD that uses standard red-laser DVD media.

BTW, an HD DVD disc with a HVDVD_TS folder does not work in Blu-ray players. Blu-ray requires a BDMV folder.

DVD Studio Pro doesn't have official support for Blu-ray's spec yet but there are easy work arounds.

Which was my point in the first place.

[PaperNotes]

[QUOTE=Eug;3453321]

The HD DVD discs created by DVD Studio Pro are industry standard HD DVDs, but do not support the advanced interactive functionality of the HD DVD format.

I know that too.

I guess you don't realize that HD DVD format discs on DVD media meet the official HD DVD spec do you?

I know that too. But you can create High Definition videos on DVD that can playback in most players including DVD players and Blu-ray players.

Also look at the screen capture of the options. Do you see it says "Extension .mov". That's right. A Quicktime extension. That's not exactly HD-DVD disc spec. It's an mp4 with a Quicktime wrapper that can playback on some supported players. More proof Apple's use of "HD DVD" is not specifically the next gen disc format.


Where you have been wrong is in saying that there isn't a way around to create HD for Blu-ray. There is. You have also been wrong in saying Apple doesn't use the HD DVD abbreviation as a general expression for HD on DVDs that can play in Blu-ray and DVD players. Apple does use HD DVD abbreviation to mean high definition video other than the HD-DVD disc format.

I said before when the Blu-ray patch arrives those menu options won't change. The only thing that will change is an addition to the drop down menu for exporting. Otherwise HD DVD will still mean any high def video that the app can export. It was used before the HD-DVD spec patch came out as I again said so many times.

Now you understand Apple does use HD DVD to mean more than what you thought so now you can chill.

Which was my point in the first place.

You never said so. You tried to censor all talk of Blu-ray support only because you loathe some of the members of Blu-ray's consortium.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

I know that too.

So why'd you post it then? It specifically supports my argument, and suggested you didn't understand what the difference was between basic HD DVD and HD DVD that includes the advanced interactive layer.

I know that too. But you can create High Definition videos on DVD that can playback in most players including DVD players and Blu-ray players.

Now you're leaving out HD DVD players?

What you say is technically true for Blu-ray, in that most Blu-ray players are in fact PS3s. PS3s have support for more than the Blu-ray spec. However, if you create a disc with say QT H.264 files on it, it won't play on most non-PS3 standalone Blu-ray players. And it won't play on any standalone HD DVD players at all.

As for DVD players, I don't own a single standalone DVD player that can play back HD content of any kind.

Also look at the screen capture of the options. Do you see it says "Extension .mov". That's right. A Quicktime extension. That's not exactly HD-DVD disc spec. It's an mp4 with a Quicktime wrapper that can playback on some supported players. More proof Apple's use of "HD DVD" is not specifically the next gen disc format.

Where you have been wrong is in saying that there isn't a way around to create HD for Blu-ray. There is. You have also been wrong in saying Apple doesn't use the HD DVD abbreviation as a general expression for HD on DVDs that can play in Blu-ray and DVD players. Apple does use HD DVD abbreviation to mean high definition video other than the HD-DVD disc format.

I said before when the Blu-ray patch arrives those menu options won't change. The only thing that will change is an addition to the drop down menu for exporting. Otherwise HD DVD will still mean any high def video that the app can export. It was used before the HD-DVD spec patch came out as I again said so many times.

Now you understand Apple does use HD DVD to mean more than what you thought so now you can chill.

You never said so. You tried to censor all talk of Blu-ray support only because you loathe some of the members of Blu-ray's consortium.

Nice backtrack.

Sure you can burn anything you want (including QT movies) to various types of media. However, that doesn't make it an HD DVD. Furthermore, QT files on HD DVD or DVD media won't work on any standalone HD DVD player in existence, whether they are mp4 or mov. Try it and see. Some will work on players like the PS3, but that's because Sony has explicitly added support to the PS3 for that, but it's not part of either the HD DVD spec or the Blu-ray spec.

I never said that you can't burn Blu-ray discs on a Mac. However, the bottom line is that DVD Studio Pro has no support for burning discs to meet the Blu-ray spec, but does for HD DVD. It's as simple as that.

[CIA]

While fascinating, this thread is now waaay off topic.

[Waragainstsleep]

Is there even a laptop-size blu-ray drive available yet?
It doesn't surprise me that Apple have yet to fit blu-ray to the iMac. What surprises me is that it isn't in the Mac Pro. Especially since there is a drive which does blu-ray and HD-DVD. (Just not CDs, so it would have to be the optional second drive.)

[JLFanboy]

What the hell happened to my thread?

Some of you guys need to calm down a bit. The only reason I brought up Blu-ray in my original post over HD-DVD, is the fact that most signs point to Blu-ray winning this format war. You can argue against it if you want, but it doesn't have to be in this thread. I honestly don't care at this point. I just want to be able to watch high definition discs on my high definition Mac. Any argument over which format Apple is going to go with is moot.

Is there even a laptop-size blu-ray drive available yet?

Looks to be. You can find one right here.

Now can we all just take a few breaths?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

In this menu we choose the h.264 for HD DVD option. At the bottom of the panel it says how many minutes of HD video will fit on a regular DVD-5 not a HD-DVD disc. That video can be played in any player (Blu-ray, DVD player.app, PS3, etc) that supports HD resolutions not just a HD-DVD player.

You don't understand what you are talking about. DVD Studio Pro will encode the menus in H.264, but the menus won't work on Bluray because Bluray does not support those style of menus. In addition, the layout of the disc that DVD Studio Pro burns is incompatible with Bluray and only compatible with HD-DVD.

If you want to move from Final Cut Pro to Bluray, you have to use Compressor.app and then push the video to another authoring app that supports Bluray.

Edit: In fact, Apple has a page on how their HD-DVD export in DVD Studio Pro meets Toshiba's specifications for the HD-DVD format:
DVD Studio Pro: Some HD DVD verification warnings do not indicate an issue

Apple also talks about burning to HD disc:
DVD Studio Pro 4: Deciding which DVD standard to use
"Blue laser discs can hold about three times the data that a red laser disc can hold (a single-layer red laser disc can hold 4.7 GB, while a single-layer blue laser disc can hold 15 GB). Since you can use SD video in your HD project, writing on a blue laser disc allows you to get much more content on the disc."

Now which format has 15 gigs per layer?

And finally, from MacWorld:
Macworld: Review: DVD Studio Pro 4
"If you care to tread the bleeding edge, you can create HD-DVDs by encoding your HD video in one of two compression formats: MPEG-2 or H.264. The latter format is the new MPEG-4 variant that’s supported by QuickTime 7. It’s also part of the HD-DVD specification, one of several competing standards for high-definition DVDs."

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You don't understand what you are talking about. DVD Studio Pro will encode the menus in H.264, but the menus won't work on Bluray because Bluray does not support those style of menus. In addition, the layout of the disc that DVD Studio Pro burns is incompatible with Bluray and only compatible with HD-DVD.

<sarcasm>Gosh, look at that Quicktime .mov extension for the HD DVD output. That's really the disc layout for the HD-DVD disc format </sarcasm>

And I don't understand what I'm talking about.