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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > 3GB (2+1) in Core Duo iMac

3GB (2+1) in Core Duo iMac
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mduell
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Apr 28, 2007, 01:14 PM
 
Can anyone confirm that a 2GB module will work in a Core Duo (20" 2.0Ghz if it matters) iMac?

My parents have one with 1.5GB and with 3 users logged in it's swapping like a dog even with very few apps open (web browser, mail, and one office app). I'm not convinced that going to just 2GB (1+1) will make a big enough difference.
     
Mister Elf
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Apr 28, 2007, 01:51 PM
 
On the Mac Mini Core Duo, supposedly up to 4GB of RAM is possible, but the memory is downclocked to 533MHz instead of 667MHz. I believe the chipsets are the same, but the iMac may have different memory capabilities. I'll look around and let you know if I find anything.
Midshipman 3/C, USNR
     
mduell  (op)
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Apr 28, 2007, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mister Elf View Post
On the Mac Mini Core Duo, supposedly up to 4GB of RAM is possible, but the memory is downclocked to 533MHz instead of 667MHz. I believe the chipsets are the same, but the iMac may have different memory capabilities. I'll look around and let you know if I find anything.
I'm quite familiar with the chipset docs; I know the chipset can support 4GB, but I also know that Apple has placed an arbitrary limit of 3GB RAM on the C2D machines. The CD iMacs were only offered with 2GB at the time, but I'm wondering if the arbitrary limit on them is 2GB or 3GB.

Also, the Core Duo Mac minis run the memory at 667Mhz per the Apple tech specs.
     
crouchingtiger
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May 6, 2007, 06:52 PM
 
I believe that someone in the Mac Achaea forums on Arstechnica tried this out in a MacBook Pro Core Duo a while back. If I recall correctly, the computer recognized the 2GB SO-DIMM. However, it would not allow the addition of another 1GB DIMM (e.g. still showed 2 GB).

If anyone knows definitively for the Core Duo iMac I would love to know as well.
     
Simon
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May 7, 2007, 03:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
...but I also know that Apple has placed an arbitrary limit of 3GB RAM on the C2D machines.
As has been pointed out already countless times the 3 GB limit is not arbitrary.

It makes economical sense to not offer an expensive RAM update of which 80% are wasted (only 200MB of that last GB would be available to the user). This is due to an issue with the Intel chipset and has nothing to do with Apple or OS X. Apple is doing people a favor by not offering that 'update'. If you feel like wasting money you are free to do so and buy two 2 GB modules from another company. Apple isn't holding you back.

Repeatedly spreading misinformation will not make it become true.
     
kamina
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May 7, 2007, 04:09 AM
 
That's correct. You can put 4GB of memory into an iMac (or other intel mac using sodimm's), but only a bit over 3GB will be usable. This is also the case with PC laptops and desktops that have the same or similar chipsets.

Most manufacturers just boast the 4GB limit even though somebody buying that much memory will not be able to use more then a tad over 3GB. Apple has (imo correctly) stated the limit is 3GB as that is what you will effectively be able to use if you buy more.
     
crouchingtiger
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May 7, 2007, 10:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by kamina View Post
That's correct. You can put 4GB of memory into an iMac (or other intel mac using sodimm's), but only a bit over 3GB will be usable. This is also the case with PC laptops and desktops that have the same or similar chipsets.

Most manufacturers just boast the 4GB limit even though somebody buying that much memory will not be able to use more then a tad over 3GB. Apple has (imo correctly) stated the limit is 3GB as that is what you will effectively be able to use if you buy more.
Is this response really true for Core Duo iMacs or is it just for Core 2 Duo iMacs?
Has anyone tried putting in 2+1 GB SO-DIMMs into an original Core Duo iMac and can post the About This Mac screenshot?
     
mduell  (op)
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May 7, 2007, 06:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
As has been pointed out already countless times the 3 GB limit is not arbitrary.

It makes economical sense to not offer an expensive RAM update of which 80% are wasted (only 200MB of that last GB would be available to the user). This is due to an issue with the Intel chipset and has nothing to do with Apple or OS X. Apple is doing people a favor by not offering that 'update'. If you feel like wasting money you are free to do so and buy two 2 GB modules from another company. Apple isn't holding you back.

Repeatedly spreading misinformation will not make it become true.
The 3GB limitation (and 2GB on the Core Duo) absolutely is arbitrarily set by Apple; other OEMs use the same chipsets and support 4GB physical/3.4GB logical.
I'm not asking Apple to offer 2x2GB; I wouldn't be buying it from them even if they did.
It's about 400MB you gain, along with the benefits of dual-channel bandwidth.
Apple is holding me back, by rendering the memory above 2/3GB useless when it doesn't need to be.

Repeatedly spreading misinformation will not make it become true.
     
Simon
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May 8, 2007, 03:34 AM
 
You can put 4 GB in there. You will only be able to use roughly 3.2 GB of it though. And that is due to the chipset.

However, Apple won't sell the fourth GB to you because although you would pay for the expensive 2 GB DIMM you wouldn't be able to use ~800 MB of it. That's not an arbitrary limit, it's just plain common sense. Any RAM vendor will sell you the second 2 GB DIMM if you insist on wasting money.
( Last edited by Simon; May 8, 2007 at 04:36 AM. )
     
mduell  (op)
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May 8, 2007, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
You can put 4 GB in there. You will only be able to use roughly 3.2 GB of it though. And that is due to the chipset.
Source please. As far as I've seen, you're limited to 3GB even, which is an arbitrary limit that Apple has added, not the limit imposed due to the chipset addressing issues.

Some people will happily pay the extra $200 form a third party for 2GB instead of 1GB to get use the extra 100-400MB RAM and dual-channel bandwidth, and Apple shouldn't be preventing them from doing so even if they don't want to offer the upgrade option themselves.
     
Simon
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May 8, 2007, 02:28 PM
 
Again: Apple isn't preventing anybody from doing anything. You can buy two 2 GB DIMMs from any vendor and put them in there. All Apple is doing is not selling a senseless configuration to prevent people who don't know better from being stupid.

I have had 4 GB in my MBP. And I have seen with my own eyes that it is a complete waste of money because the expensive last GB was not available.

Memory bandwidth is a moot point anyway since the MBP doesn't have a shared VRAM board. With dedicated VRAM the gains you measure due to dual-channel b/w on Merom/Napa chipsets are within the measurement's reproducibility.
     
mduell  (op)
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May 8, 2007, 03:39 PM
 
Please stop posting the same thing and read my reply.
     
badsey
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May 13, 2007, 10:57 AM
 
early 2006 iMac 2GB (1GB memory modules max)
iMac (Early 2006), iMac (Mid 2006), iMac (17-inch Late 2006 CD): Memory Specifications

late 2006 iMac 3GB (will take 4GB)
iMac (Late 2006): Memory Specifications

I have the early Core Duo iMac and added the 1GB (Crucial) stick for 1.5GB total. (512MB stock Crucial?)
( Last edited by badsey; May 13, 2007 at 11:10 AM. )
     
pmartin
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Jun 17, 2007, 01:06 AM
 
While that may be what Apple says, that is not what the chipset actually supports. Has anybody actually TRIED to stick a 2GB module in the original Core Duo iMac for a total of 3GB of RAM, and if so, what were your results? My real question is will the logic board actually recognize 2GB modules and if so what manufacturer did you get it from. Also, does anyone know if the 4GB memory addressing problem also exists in Linux, because I have a sneaking suspicion that under Linux the computer will be able to address 4GB of RAM just fine.
     
mduell  (op)
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Jun 17, 2007, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by pmartin View Post
While that may be what Apple says, that is not what the chipset actually supports.
<snip>
Also, does anyone know if the 4GB memory addressing problem also exists in Linux, because I have a sneaking suspicion that under Linux the computer will be able to address 4GB of RAM just fine.
The chipset supports 4GB of physical RAM.

The 3.mumble GB ceiling is due to a PCI addressing hardware issue; it applies to all OSs and all motherboards from any brand using the 945?M chipsets.
     
pmartin
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Jun 17, 2007, 09:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
The chipset supports 4GB of physical RAM.

The 3.mumble GB ceiling is due to a PCI addressing hardware issue; it applies to all OSs and all motherboards from any brand using the 945?M chipsets.
So even though Apple claims my original Core Duo iMac supports only 2GB of RAM, I can actually stick 3GB in it?
     
mduell  (op)
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Jun 18, 2007, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by pmartin View Post
So even though Apple claims my original Core Duo iMac supports only 2GB of RAM, I can actually stick 3GB in it?
That's what I'm trying to figure out; it's hard to get a reply from someone who has actually tried it.
Apple may have used the firmware to cap it at 2GB.
     
Drakino
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Nov 27, 2007, 12:29 AM
 
I know this is an old thread, but since it came up pretty high in google, I figured it would be worth answering.

My experience with a MacBook Pro Core Duo 2Ghz model is that a 2GB module works fine, but only when it is alone. Adding the factory or secondary 1GB modules I had caused the machine to fail to boot. The system powered on, but the screen stayed black. Swapping modules so that 2GB was in the other slot resulted in the same thing. The 2gb limit seems pretty solid in these machines.
<This space under renovation>
     
imitchellg5
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Nov 27, 2007, 07:39 PM
 
I have an easy solution to mduell: Have them log out.
     
mduell  (op)
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Nov 27, 2007, 11:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I have an easy solution to mduell: Have them log out.
Better solution: Upgraded to Leopard. Lighter on the RAM and remains more responsive while swapping.
     
billyt1963
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Dec 5, 2007, 11:31 PM
 
I don't know if this helps or not, but...

I have an AL iMac that is about 3 weeks old. The first thing I did was to install a 2 GB chip. It seems to be working great. When I click "about this mac" it shows 3 GB of RAM.

Any help?

Billy
     
Simon
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Dec 6, 2007, 03:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by billyt1963 View Post
I have an AL iMac that is about 3 weeks old. The first thing I did was to install a 2 GB chip. It seems to be working great. When I click "about this mac" it shows 3 GB of RAM.
Any help?
Probably not. Your iMac as well as the most recent MBs and MBPs support 4 GB RAM right out of the box. It's no surprise 3 GB works fine. The last generation of these Macs (and the current Mac mini) only supported 3 GB (which is what this thread was originally about). In those systems people can install 4 GB (and System Profiler will see it as 2x2GB), but they will only be able to actually use 3 GB (chipset issue with addressing space).
     
billyt1963
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Dec 6, 2007, 08:14 AM
 
Sorry . I thought the first question was about using a 2 GB chip in an iMac. I guess that is an older vintage than mine so it is not the same.

Billy
     
Seaking
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Dec 6, 2007, 02:28 PM
 
(new old kid on the boock with his first ever Mac pc)

I purchased a 20" iMac 2.4 GHz (aluminum case) that came with with just the one Gig mem. The shop who sold it had a bit of discussion over this and were telling me I should "not" put in a Kingston 1G stick in there as it would either not work or void the warranty..

I'm a little confused what this is all about because as far as I can tell from the system info is that 1 slot has a 1G module in it (677) and the second one empty. So I'd be looking to put a second 1G module in there to bring it up to 2G but they want to charge me $170 for it?? for a 1G module? Is this right? And from what I can see from Apple's site, you can bring these latest model iMacs up to 4G but at $900+ price tag.. egads lads.. hefty!

Question short, has anyone figured out yet if

(A) can you actually put 4G (two 2G sticks) in a new model iMac and benifit from the full 4G or are you only going to use the 3.2G restriction of the chipset..

(B) can you put a 2G module in with the 1G that came with the system to get a 3G memory count, and will it work.

(C) Can you install another brand module instead what the authorized dealers insist on installing for a higher price? I build my own PCs so doing memory modules shouldn't be a daunting task.. Just need to find out what and which models configuration will best suite my needs for photo and video editing with the new iMac.

I've read the info in the thread and see that there is a lot of misconceptions probably due to the new systems and new OS being brought out that may or may not have changed the rules of the game..

ideas, thoughts or comments?

Cheers
     
Simon
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Dec 6, 2007, 02:48 PM
 
For the curent Al iMac:
a) Yes
b) Yes
c) Yes
     
0157988944
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Dec 6, 2007, 04:17 PM
 
Back to the question: Can the Core Duo iMac access anymore than 2 GB of RAM? Is 2 really the limit?
     
mduell  (op)
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Dec 6, 2007, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
Back to the question: Can the Core Duo iMac access anymore than 2 GB of RAM? Is 2 really the limit?
Yes, 2GB (either as 1x2 or 2x1) is the limit for Core Duo Macs; Apple crippled them in the firmware.
     
Seaking
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Dec 8, 2007, 08:11 AM
 
well that's a bit of a bugger isn't it? Its advertised as a 4G capable machine but can only access a lot less.. I can understand the misconception if it was a shared video memory thing but these iMacs have their video cards, do they not?

Still very confusing. The local shop can install another 1g stick but for $169? steep no?
     
0157988944
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Dec 8, 2007, 01:22 PM
 
It's not advertised as a 4G capable machine. The newest aluminum iMacs are 4 GB capable and are advertised as such. We are talking about older Macs here.
     
Simon
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Dec 8, 2007, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Seaking View Post
well that's a bit of a bugger isn't it? Its advertised as a 4G capable machine but can only access a lot less..
Umm, no. We're talking abut different iMacs here.

White CD: 2 GB (firmware limit, chipset would allow 3 GB)
White C2D: 3 GB (chipset limit; you can install 2x 2 GB but you will only be able to use 3 GB)
Al C2D: 4 GB (chipset limit)
     
Seaking
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Dec 9, 2007, 07:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
It's not advertised as a 4G capable machine. The newest aluminum iMacs are 4 GB capable and are advertised as such. We are talking about older Macs here.
Colour me silly then.. my bad. I have the newer aluminum iMAC and have 4Gs of sodimms on the way.. So all's good for me.. (new at Macs, confusing)

Cheers
     
nietzche
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May 27, 2008, 09:30 AM
 
I only found this thread after not being able to put more than 2gb of RAM in my Imac 2.0ghz CD (not c2d). Like 'mduell', when I tried to put more than 2GB in my Imac (2+1) ... it wouldn't boot. Works perfectly with the 2GB only (2+0).

Most seem to believe it's a firmware limitation. Has anyone been able to resolve the issue over the last year?
     
Simon
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May 27, 2008, 11:11 AM
 
There is nothing to resolve. It's a firmware limitation. There is no alternative firmware or 'patch' you could apply. If you need more memory you need a new iMac.
     
Eug
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May 27, 2008, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Umm, no. We're talking abut different iMacs here.

White CD: 2 GB (firmware limit, chipset would allow 3 GB)
White C2D: 3 GB (chipset limit; you can install 2x 2 GB but you will only be able to use 3 GB)
Al C2D: 4 GB (chipset limit)
Out of interest's sake, how is the 3GB distributed with the white Core 2 Duo if you install 2x2? Is it evenly distributed, allowing dual-channel support? Or is it seen as something like 2+1, and thereby losing dual-channel support?

Not that it matters to me much, since I installed 2+1 in my white C2D iMac, but I was just wondering.
     
mduell  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by nietzche View Post
I only found this thread after not being able to put more than 2gb of RAM in my Imac 2.0ghz CD (not c2d). Like 'mduell', when I tried to put more than 2GB in my Imac (2+1) ... it wouldn't boot. Works perfectly with the 2GB only (2+0).

Most seem to believe it's a firmware limitation. Has anyone been able to resolve the issue over the last year?
I haven't seen any hacks to change the firmware limitation, nor would I really want to use them (stability > performance).

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Out of interest's sake, how is the 3GB distributed with the white Core 2 Duo if you install 2x2? Is it evenly distributed, allowing dual-channel support? Or is it seen as something like 2+1, and thereby losing dual-channel support?

Not that it matters to me much, since I installed 2+1 in my white C2D iMac, but I was just wondering.
2x2GB in a machine that only supports 3GB gives you dual channel performance for the entire address space; even 2+1 should give you dual channel performance over the first 2GB (assuming Apple didn't add another firmware limitation to force non-interleaving with asymmetric configurations ). See the chipset specifications (chapter 5) for all the details.
     
Eug
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May 27, 2008, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
2x2GB in a machine that only supports 3GB gives you dual channel performance for the entire address space; even 2+1 should give you dual channel performance over the first 2GB

See the chipset specifications (chapter 5) for all the details.
Good to know. Thx. Thus, there is even less reason to do 2x2 in those older machines, even when memory is super cheap.
     
mduell  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 08:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Good to know. Thx. Thus, there is even less reason to do 2x2 in those older machines, even when memory is super cheap.
I'd go the other way and say it makes more sense to go with 2x2 in the 3GB machines, because I'm suspicious of Apple pulling shenanigans and the price difference is really small (~1% of machine cost).
     
Eug
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May 27, 2008, 11:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
I'd go the other way and say it makes more sense to go with 2x2 in the 3GB machines, because I'm suspicious of Apple pulling shenanigans and the price difference is really small (~1% of machine cost).
I bought the 2+1 a long time ago, when memory was much more expensive. Anyways, I'm more than happy with the speed. For obvious reasons, 2+1 is markedly faster than 1+1.
     
P
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May 28, 2008, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
2x2GB in a machine that only supports 3GB gives you dual channel performance for the entire address space; even 2+1 should give you dual channel performance over the first 2GB (assuming Apple didn't add another firmware limitation to force non-interleaving with asymmetric configurations ). See the chipset specifications (chapter 5) for all the details.
As I understand it, 2+1 will not let you make 128-bit reads. You can make two 64-bit reads at once, but that's not the same thing. It mainly affects integrated graphics.
     
mduell  (op)
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May 28, 2008, 06:02 PM
 
Figure 7 on page 66 of the above linked spec appears to disagree with you, P.
     
Simon
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May 29, 2008, 03:04 AM
 
I'm with P. You won't be making any 128-bit reads with 2+1 GB (on a 945 chipset that is).
( Last edited by Simon; May 29, 2008 at 05:35 AM. )
     
P
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May 29, 2008, 05:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Figure 7 on page 66 of the above linked spec appears to disagree with you, P.
So it seems to, but that is for the 965 chipset. The 945 chipset docs, which is what we were talking about (all 965-based machines support the full 2+2), says something else (page 339).

10.2.3.2 Dual-channel Asymmetric Mode
This mode trades performance for system design flexibility. Unlike the previous mode, addresses start in channel A and stay there until the end of the highest rank in channel A, then addresses continue from the bottom of channel B to the top. Real world applications are unlikely to make requests that alternate between addresses that sit on opposite channels with this memory organization, so in most cases, bandwidth will be limited to that of a single channel. The system designer is free to populate or not to populate any rank on either channel, including either degenerate single-channel case.
Intel is making life hard on us by calling the modes the same thing (Asymmetric Dual channel) but implementing them differently.
     
mduell  (op)
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May 29, 2008, 01:26 PM
 
Augh, that's annoying.
     
AlbanianGenome
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Jun 6, 2008, 02:47 PM
 
just to let everyone know, I decided to go with a 4 gig Crucial kit for my 24" 2.16ghz iMac, supposedly it only can handle 3 gigs due to chipset restrictions, however my apple system profiler shows 4 gigs, as well as my activity monitor, showing that its actually using all 4 gigs. Does anyone have some information on this, possibly it was only a software issue and with the newer releases it has addressed that? There is a very noticeable difference between 1 gig and 4 gigs Also, here is another question, I over worry about things at times, especially being super careful when installing ram, well when you push the ram in on an imac, there are those black segments that are actually on the ram chip itself, it seems as it would be pretty easy to press one of those as well when installing the ram, could a piece of the ram technically be loose and still function in a computer, or if there is one little thing off with a chip it will not be recognized? How delicate is ram really? say one of those gold contacts chipped off but the majority of them were on, would the chip still work and be recognized? Any comments on that would be welcomed, and I just wanted everyone to know about the 4 gigs of ram being recognized and supposedly being used as well. Anyone else here have a 24" iMac 2.16ghz?
     
nebulousforce
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Jun 6, 2008, 04:29 PM
 
I found a great deal on 1X2GB at Fry's with a price of $14.99 after rebate but it's PC5400 not PC5300. I'm gonna gamble and try to install it on my iMac Core Duo 2.0 not a Core 2. It's a 20' with a dedicated video card and for and additional $75 Apple's BTO option added 128MB of V-Ram for a total of 256MB. I'll let you know how it comes out. Why try? Why not?! LOL I'm running Leopard 10.5.3 and I too am curious if it'll work. If it does, I'll try to catch it on sale again. Dang! It's back on sale for $10.99 w/rebate! FRYS.com�|�OCZ
I really bought it for my MacBook that has 2GBX1 right now but I wanted to bump it up since it's my primary system at the moment. I've dabbled in the forums and most folks claim on both Macs and PCs that the PC5400 will work in place of the PC5300 since it'll run at the slower speed which isn't much 667mhz vs 675mhz. However there are a few that say it didn't work so for $15 clams I'll give it a whirl! Too bad I didn't wait for the $10.99 deal! A couple of weeks ago it was $9.99!
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by AlbanianGenome View Post
just to let everyone know, I decided to go with a 4 gig Crucial kit for my 24" 2.16ghz iMac, supposedly it only can handle 3 gigs due to chipset restrictions, however my apple system profiler shows 4 gigs, as well as my activity monitor, showing that its actually using all 4 gigs. Does anyone have some information on this, possibly it was only a software issue and with the newer releases it has addressed that?
What you experienced is absolutely normal. Your iMac has recognized the total 4 GB. But still, you will only be able to make actual use of 3GB of those 4GB. To actually verify this you can check the amount of actually used RAM vs. the total amount available: you can look at RAM consumption (in top or AM)
Total = Free + Used
where
Used = Wired + Active + Inactive

Your iMac will never address more than 3GB. And there is nothing the OS, software, or firmware can do about it. Chipset limitation. Plain and simple.

And also, you can check this discussion on the same issue.
     
   
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