[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
...those stats are the result of poor gun onwers, not the guns themselves. Since I'm a responsible gun owner, those stats don't mean crap to me.

As for your bat, I hope you're a good throw since I can drop you like a fly from 30 yards, at night, with my handgun. Personally, if someone ever breaks into my home and the alarm doesn't scare them off, I have no intention of getting close enough to them to hit them with a bat -- I'll shoot from the hallway into the living room.



Maury

Poor gun owners? While I'm sure some significantly increased the odds by having the guns easily accessible, I'm sure there are many that WOULD have considered themselves "very safe" gun owners... up until a fatality.

Unless you sleep with the handgun under your pillow or in some other unsafe way, what are the odds that you will even have the time unlock the trigger lock and load the ammunition before the burglar leaves?

I simply think people don't put much thought in to buying handguns. If anything, a shotgun would be MUCH more effective if your intent is to kill someone at close range in the dark.

While I'm not going to let someone loot my home, I don't think armed confrontation with someone that's obviously mentally unstable is a good choice either.

Again, whatever makes you sleep at night.

[Randman]

When I was a very small kid, my dad, my older brothers, grandpa, uncles and older cousins used to go deer hunting but by the time I got old enough to go, they had all stopped. My dad's retired military, Army and served in the Marines in the Korean War and one of my brothers did 2 tours in the AF and I've cousins who went for the whole 20 in the Marines and Navy so I'm comfortable with the thought of guns, it's just that I've never felt the need to own one.

What I do find interesting in this thread are the knowledgeable owners, such as Glenn and some of the other vets and some of the collectors and then the near-rabid comments by some Dirty Harry-wannabes (I'll drop an assailant from 30 yards types ) (as if someone's house is 30 yards long) and I've used mine to unlock doors types (obviously turning the lock and opening the door via the knob doesn't work). I mean what's up with that? Is that just compensation for other areas that are lacking?

I can accept people saying they own guns for the enjoyment of them, and I can accept that some people fall pray to FUD and hence feel safer with a gun around them), but the overblown macho posturing by some of the other posters is a little ... unsettling.

I worry that just like too many people who think they know how to drive (when in reality they really don't) think they know how to properly use, store and maintain a deadly weapon.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Big Mac:
Impressive. And here I thought that apart from being Jewish Mac users we had little else in common. Of course, your CCW is making a lot of us jealous.

I'm not Jewish (although I was kind of "adopted" into a Jewish family). I simply love the culture and the people.


*grooving to the Andy Statman orchestra on a fine thursday morning*

[Dimethyltrypt]

Originally posted by CMYKid:
II'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious...

Shotties are useful for breaching doors. You shoot in the lock and it opens. That's what I do when my wife is angry and locks herself up in our bedroom. I blow the door up.

I once ran out of 12 gauge ammo and I had to use my FiveseveN

[Randman]

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
Shotties are useful for breaching doors. You shoot in the lock and it opens. That's what I do when my wife is angry and locks herself up in our bedroom. I blow the door up.

I once ran out of 12 gauge ammo and I had to use my FiveseveN

If you had Alzheimer's you could be mistaken for Charlton Heston. Or OJ, at the minimum.

btw, got the pm. Interesting.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Poor gun owners? While I'm sure some significantly increased the odds by having the guns easily accessible, I'm sure there are many that WOULD have considered themselves "very safe" gun owners... up until a fatality.

If the gun resulted in an unintended fatality, it's the owner's fault for NOT being able to handle the weapon. Period. But because some people aren't responsible and safe enough to maintain a firearm doesn't mean they're useless for personal protection. When i said poor, I meant irresponsible, BTW, not economic poor.

Unless you sleep with the handgun under your pillow or in some other unsafe way, what are the odds that you will even have the time unlock the trigger lock and load the ammunition before the burglar leaves?

I can fully insert the clip, remove the safety, and discharge my firearm -- on target -- in a matter of seconds. I don't use a trigger lock because I don't need one (also, my firearm won't fire unless the clip is inserted -- even if a round is in the chamber). And only an idiot doesn't keep ammunition in a clip. Thus, I'd merely reach into my night stand and in one move, remove the safety with my right thumb while fully inserting the clip with my left palm. At this point, the firearm is in the ready position for discharge. Fours seconds, maximum.

Have you never shot a firearm or what?

I simply think people don't put much thought in to buying handguns. If anything, a shotgun would be MUCH more effective if your intent is to kill someone at close range in the dark.

Again, you're the only person talking about this "close range" stuff. If i see someone in my house after our alarm has been tripped, he's going down from across the room, around the corner. If he were to manage to get to our bedroom, he'd have to open the door -- and when he did, he'd be sent right back out by Smith & Wesson. I don't want an altercation, I don't want a fight -- so I'll stay as far freaking away as i can until I drop the guy.

While I'm not going to let someone loot my home, I don't think armed confrontation with someone that's obviously mentally unstable is a good choice either.

I don't plan on having a confrontation. I'll shoot first and ask questions later.

Maury

[Nicko]

Meh, guns are for the weak.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally posted by Nicko:
Meh, guns are for the weak.

What is your opinion of the light saber, young man?

[budster101]

Light Sabers don't exist...

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally posted by budster101:
Light Sabers don't exist...

Careful.

[finboy]

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:


Couple o' flashies and HEs In case things go bad.

[Edit] Kinda forgot to add the HK69... which reminds me I have to buy some more rounds for it. Oh and belts for the Negev.

Don't you have a pulse rifle and a BFG9000 in there somewhere?

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Randman:
When I was a very small kid, my dad, my older brothers, grandpa, uncles and older cousins used to go deer hunting but by the time I got old enough to go, they had all stopped. My dad's retired military, Army and served in the Marines in the Korean War and one of my brothers did 2 tours in the AF and I've cousins who went for the whole 20 in the Marines and Navy so I'm comfortable with the thought of guns, it's just that I've never felt the need to own one.

What I do find interesting in this thread are the knowledgeable owners, such as Glenn and some of the other vets and some of the collectors and then the near-rabid comments by some Dirty Harry-wannabes (I'll drop an assailant from 30 yards types ) (as if someone's house is 30 yards long) and I've used mine to unlock doors types (obviously turning the lock and opening the door via the knob doesn't work). I mean what's up with that? Is that just compensation for other areas that are lacking?

I can accept people saying they own guns for the enjoyment of them, and I can accept that some people fall pray to FUD and hence feel safer with a gun around them), but the overblown macho posturing by some of the other posters is a little ... unsettling.

I worry that just like too many people who think they know how to drive (when in reality they really don't) think they know how to properly use, store and maintain a deadly weapon.

[chabig]

Most of my live fire training was 20mm cannon, some live 2000 and 500 pound bombs, and a couple of Maverick missiles. This is me in the photo...



But this was a few years ago. Now I carry an H&K USP Compact 40 S&W.

Chris

[Dimethyltrypt]

I'm really considering a HK UMP45 / Silenced+Laser.
Any advice?

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
I'm really considering a HK UMP45 / Silenced+Laser.
Any advice?

Silenced?

[MacMan4000]

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
FN P90 (silenced) <--- that thing is a beast

my latest investments...a couple of MP5 PDWs in a black case scattered around the house. Mods are silencer + laser + optional scope.
I keep one in my bathroom in case some burglar enters while I'm taking a dump. The case is somewhat easy to hide, given the gun's relatively small size. Oh and add a standard MP5 w/navy trigger to that.
http://www.sasrogues.co.uk/Weapons/S...W/MP5kCase.jpg
I'm proud of those babies.

M4 W/ x3 scope, silencer and grenade launcher. Just like the ones the Navy SEALs use.

Classic M16 (who doesn't own one anyway???)

Ingram MAC 10 (Actually killed someone with it but don't tell anyone.) I don,t love the recoil of this gun.. made me shoot in the victim's walls. I have to admit it's stylish with the sound supressor though.

IMI Negev in case of war (3 of them are ready to be mounted at strategic points in my house... all windows)

IMI Desert Eagle... (palestinians don,t like em HEHEHEHEHE if u see what i mean)

Sig Sauer, Some kind of magnum (i think it might be a Ragin Bull... not sure tho), pair of glocks (those are just essential),

For the shotties...(useful when my wife locks herself in our room... I had 5 doors repaired.)
Benelli M3 Super 90
Remington can't remember the model
Mossberg (gangsta style.)
and my beloved Franchi spas 12

My useful PSG1 (my friend borrowed it... reminds me I have to get it back from him)
Steyr Aug Scoped.

FN FiveseveN....

Couple o' flashies and HEs In case things go bad.

[Edit] Kinda forgot to add the HK69... which reminds me I have to buy some more rounds for it. Oh and belts for the Negev.

DAAAAMN!
Are you sure your thinking of real life here, not GTA? But seriously where do you buy a silenced MP5? or a friggin spas 12? isn't that a full auto 12 gage shotgun? Is that sh*t even legal?!

Where do you use that kind of firepower? full-auto hunting?

That definitely qualifies as an arsenal.

[bubblewrap]

Originally posted by MountainMac:
Is that an IPSC race gun in .45ACP, or is it a bullseye gun, bubblewrap?

It's a race/bowling pin gun.
My wife beat me in competition with it.

I carry a Sig 226 in the cockpit/flight deck.

[willab]

Someone I know owns a total of 137 guns. One closet in his house contains three machine guns with a total of 30,000 rounds.

[badidea]

I really can't understand why you gun-people don't recognize ambush's satire...

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by badidea:
I really can't understand why you gun-people don't recognize ambush's satire...

We recognized it, but chose to ignore it.

[badidea]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
We recognized it, but chose to ignore it.

Well, you did...

[BoomStick]

Originally posted by MacMan4000:
DAAAAMN!
Are you sure your thinking of real life here, not GTA? But seriously where do you buy a silenced MP5? or a friggin spas 12? isn't that a full auto 12 gage shotgun? Is that sh*t even legal?!

I had a SPAAS and if you didn't use the most high power buckshot or slugs, it jammed terribly.

It's not full auto, but a convertable semi-auto to pump with a single button on the foregrip. The pump action has alot to be desired.

[Paco500]

I have shot guns a handful of times. Skeet shooting once, and firing at a range.

It does make one feel powerful and it is kind of fun, but I will never own guns or allow my children into the house of a gun owner.

I'm sure all gun owners think they are "safe" gun owners and know how to handle their piece, but the only way to prevent gun violence is with the absence of guns.

One of my all-time favorite bumper stickers- "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will accidentally shoot and kill their children."

[ghporter]

Originally posted by MacMan4000:
DAAAAMN!
Are you sure your thinking of real life here, not GTA? But seriously where do you buy a silenced MP5? or a friggin spas 12? isn't that a full auto 12 gage shotgun? Is that sh*t even legal?!

Where do you use that kind of firepower? full-auto hunting?

That definitely qualifies as an arsenal.

Silencers (actually "suppressors") "destructive devices" like the SPAS 12, and machine guns are NOT illegal for civilians to own. They are (especially the machineguns) awfully expensive and require the approval of the BATFE, along with that of your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer (many of whom have their own agenda about enforcing the law as they see fit). That approval costs $200 for all of the above. A real M16 can cost $15,000-$25,000 all by itself.

Most full-auto owners that I'm aware of like to go to the range and chew stuff up-plastic barrels, paper targets, steel buckets, etc. It's a sport to them. There has NEVER (according to FBI records) been a crime committed with a registered (legally owned) machine gun in the hands of its registered owner. Period. The 1986 manufacturing ban simply limited the pool of legally available full-auto weapons and upped the price so high that only really rich people can afford them. So much for a democratic process.

[Randman]

So, if someone wanted to start off with, what gun would users recommend?

[BoomStick]

Are you interested in a Handgun, Rifle or Shotgun?

[finboy]

Originally posted by Randman:
So, if someone wanted to start off with, what gun would users recommend?

For home defense, the best you can get, all around, is a pump shotgun with a "riot" barrel. The standard barrel is too long to make it useful indoors. Load it with something other than buckshot, and it's useful for taking down intruders but doesn't have a lot of penetration power except at point blank range (for opening doors, etc.). Either 12 or 20 gauge though - 410 is a little weak. 12 is hard for a lighter person to shoot, but after some practice becomes easier. (I mention this because I've seen some semiauto 410s lately that look cool but aren't worth considering, at least for the novice.)

Other folks consider the 30-30 lever action to be the perfect home defense gun, but it will penetrate walls too easily, imho.

For a handgun, something like a 38 revolver is a good place to start. Someone who is looking to defend the house doesn't need an automatic unless they are very familiar with the gun -- clearing a stuck round in the dark isn't something you can train well for. Revolvers almost always work when you pull the trigger. The biggest mistake most newbies make is getting a 2 or 3" barrel, when the 4" models are much more accurate and better balanced at the range.

It's important, as always, to make sure that all precautions are maintained to keep them away from kids. Once kids are older, it's important to show them what gun safety is and how to handle firearms. They're a fact of life in most parts of the country, if not in suburbia.

Another important thing -- whatever you get, plan to take it to a range and practice two or three times per month for a while, until you're comfortable with it, and it's broken in.

Again, guns are tools. There's as much responsibility to gun ownership as there is to driving.

Finally, see if you can actually shoot an example of a gun before you buy it. Many ranges allow you to rent a firearm for an afternoon's shooting.

[Demonhood]

a former housemate of mine is a cop. he had a friend on the force who carried a gun that required a ring in order to fire. if you aren't wearing the ring, the gun won't fire. this was 7 years ago, so i'm going to assume that the technology has advanced since then. might be something to look into for those concerned about unauthorized use of their firearm.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Demonhood:
a former housemate of mine is a cop. he had a friend on the force who carried a gun that required a ring in order to fire. if you aren't wearing the ring, the gun won't fire. this was 7 years ago, so i'm going to assume that the technology has advanced since then. might be something to look into for those concerned about unauthorized use of their firearm.

Unfortunately the technology hasn't inched ahead much since then. The ring-based system (Colt's design, I believe) is fairly good, but it's expensive, and I've read reports of it failing null-that's very bad.

Gun safety really still does come down to responsible handling and storage, and good, solid hands-on training. Guns must be stored unloaded, and there should be absolutely no way that a kid could get his or her hands on any gun, much less both the gun and the ammunition, without direct and highly concentrated supervision. Separate, locked storage of weapons and ammunition is absolutely essential when there are kids around-and that includes visiting kids.

[sielo_X]

I don't own any fire arms. Never have or will. Some might find it odd since I'm a Marine sniper.

[budster101]

Originally posted by sielo_X:
I don't own any fire arms. Never have or will. Some might find it odd since I'm a Marine sniper.

So, what do you snipe with?

"Hey, yeah, you!, fall down and die, I don't have a gun, but I'll come over and kill you with my bare hands if you don't."

Kidding.

Makes sense. Your job is to use a rifle, so why feel the need to necessarily own one?

That's sort of like a guy who uses computers at work, but is so sick of them by the time he gets home, that he'd rather not even look at one, let alone own one. I see your logic.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by budster101:
So, what do you snipe with?

"Hey, yeah, you!, fall down and die, I don't have a gun, but I'll come over and kill you with my bare hands if you don't."

Kidding.

Makes sense. Your job is to use a rifle, so why feel the need to necessarily own one?

That's sort of like a guy who uses computers at work, but is so sick of them by the time he gets home, that he'd rather not even look at one, let alone own one. I see your logic.

When a Marine needs a weapon, it's issued to him. He is first trained extremely thoroughly in every possible facet of the weapon's use and upkeep, and drilled on marksmanship to the point that he's very, very good with it. He does not OWN the weapon-the Corps does-but he treats it at least as well as if he did.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by ghporter:
Wow, then you do indeed know all about it. An 11B should, and then some. I was mistaking your responses for those of, shall we say, a less well informed, but good intentioned person. (I didn't pick up any key phrases that identified you as a veteran.)

To be exact, I was an 11M. An 11M is an 11B with an additional couple of weeks training on the Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

Here's a picture I found of me shooting on the M60 range in Germany about 12 years ago.

[nforcer]

Don't have a gun yet, but I plan to some day. When I get the money, I will pay someone to make the pistol from Halo 1, complete with scope. Should keep me well protected against snipers, aliens, and unfriendly cyborgs.

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by ghporter:
Gun safety really still does come down to responsible handling and storage, and good, solid hands-on training.

Couldn't agree more. Ignorance can be deadly, and not just on this topic.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
[B]To be exact, I was an 11M. An 11M is an 11B with an additional couple of weeks training on the Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

Here's a picture I found of me shooting on the M60 range in Germany about 12 years ago.

{picture omitted in quote}

Cool. When I mentioned 11Bs, I looked it up to make sure I wasn't remembering things wrong-they've changed 35s so much in the last few years that you can get people pissed at you for giving them the wrong letter-and saw that the 11s are still pretty much as they've always been.

Did they train you on the "firing port weapon" too? Some of those are turning up with armored personnel in Iraq-but not in Bradleys. They're just carrying them. Pretty goofy, I think.

Were your unit's M60s still pretty good, or did you have the same aging problems that they had with the guns in Panama; they got warm (or just tired) and quit, while the 249s were like the Energizer bunny.

[Dimethyltrypt]

Silcencers are really useful. First of all, the flash is almost non-existant. People don't know where you fired from. Second, the noise. The noise of a silencer is like having an orgasm. Try it and see for yourself. I think I came in my pants while shooting a full clip of a PDW.

And for those wondering why I have all this stuff: the terrorists will try to invade us. They will kill our women and children. It is our duty to protect them, and to protect our freedom. I know my neighbors will feel safe in my house when the war comes. And I will share my weapons with them. I already made a plan.

For instance I know Mr. Brown, one of my neighbor, will be posted at the negev in the second front window. Etc, etc. I took him to my private firing range and showed him the basic. Damn he's a fine shooter, I was almost jealous.

I showed my sonny how to place claymore mines the other day. I guess it'll come in handy once those terrorists try to breach.

Can't wait to plug some buckshot.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
The noise of a silencer is like having an orgasm. Try it and see for yourself. I think I came in my pants while shooting a full clip of a PDW.

Normally I couldn't care less but at times I feel sorry for less well endowed men.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by ghporter:
Did they train you on the "firing port weapon" too? Some of those are turning up with armored personnel in Iraq-but not in Bradleys. They're just carrying them. Pretty goofy, I think.

Yes, but the firing port weapon is the stupidest weapon in the US inventory. It was designed originally to copy the way the Soviet BMP personnel carrier allowed mounted dismounts to fire their rifles from inside the vehicle. But the US weapon was verry badly designed.

The firing port weapon is magazine fed, and with an ungodly rate of fire. It will empty a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds or so (we tried it). It has no sights because you are supposed to aim it through the periscope using tracers, but at that rate of fire you don't have time to walk the rounds in. It's basically just there to scare people and now that most of the firing ports have been covered up with Kevlar additional armor, it's useless. The only place that still has ports is in the ramp. Theoretically, you squirt a burst out to lower heads before you drop the ramp, but it takes so long to disconnect the weapons you lose the benefit. It's easier and more effective to just turn the turret and use the coax.*

One of the platoons I was in tried some experiments with alternate uses for the firing port weapons. One was to use it to clear bunkers, but the rate of fire is still a problem. It's also very hard to hold the muzzle down. Some Bradley crews carry them up in the turret as basically a replacement for the old grease gun, but I don't know if anyone in Iraq is doing that. If anyone is carrying them, it is probably only because they don't have an M9 assigned.



* Those firing ports do have one use remaining. At a pinch, and if you are a bit of a contortionist, I am told you can pee out of them.

Originally posted by ghporter:
Were your unit's M60s still pretty good, or did you have the same aging problems that they had with the guns in Panama; they got warm (or just tired) and quit, while the 249s were like the Energizer bunny.

It's funny you should mention Panama. My first active duty company was one of the companies that took the Comandancia (about a year before I joined them). I've used the weapons that they took to Panama, and yes, they were ragged out. During the run up to Desert Storm we got the M16A2 to replace the A1s they took to Panama, and we got Saws to replace most of the M60s (the airborne units had SAWs at that time, but not the mechanized units). I don't remember any problems with the ones that were left. Our deployment to the Gulf was cancelled before we left because the war ended.

The M60 I am shooting in the picture above was in Germany, where by and large the equipment was in decent shape.

[crazeazn]

two handguns

walther p22: cheap ammo perfect for range, and bringing friends
h&k USP compact 9mm: my home defense, the irony is i dont keep ammo...

[jknight8907]

I own:

16 ga and 12 ga autoloading shotguns

I've had the opportunity to shoot:

20ga
9mm
.45

[ghporter]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The firing port weapon is magazine fed, and with an ungodly rate of fire. It will empty a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds or so (we tried it). It has no sights because you are supposed to aim it through the periscope using tracers, but at that rate of fire you don't have time to walk the rounds in.

IIRC they were supposed to fire ALL tracers, so not only would they simply hose rounds, it would look like a GD phaser squirting out the vehicle! Geez!

* Those firing ports do have one use remaining. At a pinch, and if you are a bit of a contortionist, I am told you can pee out of them.

Not something I even want to contemplate doing!

It's funny you should mention Panama.

I spent from November 1987 through December 17, 1989 (3 days before Just Cause kicked off) in Panama, stationed at Howard AFB and living on Albrook AFS-so I had to cross the bridge every day to get to work. That meant passing the Balboa police station, which had a soldier with some automatic rifle at each end of its parking lot. That SOB would track EVERY automobile with a US Forces sticker on it with his rifle, no matter who was in it-my wife and infant son, for example. The AC-130s chewed the Balboa police station into little, tiny bits because the PDF had stockpiled a huge amount of weapons and ammo there. It was very nice to see the "after" pictures of that building; the religious statue in its front yard wasn't touched, the palm trees in front of it were scorched on the building side and the rest was absolute rubble. Very impressive precision.

My shop was on the back side of Howard, actually at the very back of Ft. Kobbe, and a lot of Army units would train in the mowed area around my antenna field-something over 150 acres of grass and weeds instead of triple-canopy jungle. I got to see the rifles they used, and was surprised in a very bad way, because some of them were so worn that you could almost shave in your reflection from the magazine well. It made the kludged rifles that the Air Force guys had look good-at least they were all black.

The one thing I hated about the Army training in my field was that they NEVER took back unfired blanks. Instead, they chucked them into the jungle. During the dry season, grass fires are common there, so grass fires would burn to the disposed of blanks and cook them off. We were stuck in the shop for an extra two hours once because the only road out of the site was blocked by THOUSANDS of M60 blanks cooking off right at the gate.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by ghporter:
The AC-130s chewed the Balboa police station into little, tiny bits because the PDF had stockpiled a huge amount of weapons and ammo there. It was very nice to see the "after" pictures of that building; the religious statue in its front yard wasn't touched, the palm trees in front of it were scorched on the building side and the rest was absolute rubble. Very impressive precision.

Well, unfortunately, one of those AC-130s in Panama also chewed up one of the platoons of D Co. 4/6 Infantry (part of Task Force Gator). There were a lot of purple hearts out of that incident - it's a miracle nobody was killed. One sergeant (who I have never met) had his legs blown off by a 105mm round, and my squad leader was still having schrapnel from a 40mm round taken out of his legs when I joined the company a year and a bit later. They took his M113 back to Fort Polk to put it in the museum because at first, they thought the fire was PDF mortar fire. When the Army found out it was the Air Force that shot them up, they banished the half-melted track to the M203 range. It's probably still there.

Edit: I found this paper referring to the incident:

One mechanized platoon, however, was not as fortunate. As its APCs approached the compound, one of the AC-130s tracking PDF V-300s changed the target acquisition system on the gunship to obtain a better image. When the gunner reacquired the target, it was the wrong one. It was not the V-300s but U.S. M113s. The AC-130 hit all three of the platoon�s vehicles and wounded 21 of 26 of their occupants. Reed had a fire support officer located with the JSOTF, and when it became apparent what was happening, communication with the plane ended the firing before it inflicted additional damage. Miraculously, no one in the platoon was killed, but the unit was incapable of further action. The preinvasion fears of a major friendly fire incident in a congested urban area had been realized.

Link

[ghporter]

Too true, and caused in a large part by a lack of common communication systems and techniques. Some of that's been fixed..not enough of it yet, but there are some "traditionalists" in each of the services that don't understand that it's BAD to send Johnny home in a body bag with a USGI bullet in him.

On the other hand, some of our folks were pinned down while assaulting the Commandancia and asked for support. Spooky (an AC-130 gunship) was in the air nearby. The guys on the ground had GPS, so when Spooky asked them where they were, they told them EXACTLY. Spooky says "move back 50 feet," and when they have complied, wails on the dug in PDF forces. Our guys are saved, but they had a Combat Controller with them, who had the right radio and the right frequencies. See above issue.

Sorry to hijack the thread folks, but when you've been to some "interesting" places and had dealings with "interesting" events, it's kind of theraputic to hash them out with others of similar experience.

By the way, I don't have an arsenal, but I do like to maintain my proficiency-it's a matter of personal pride that I haven't gone to pot since I retired. Therefore I own an AR15 (which I don't get enough range time with) and a S&W Model 59 9mm pistol (with less range time, unfortunately).

[Mister Elf]

Neither I nor my family (I'm 15) owns any type of gun, but I'm in Navy JROTC and have had the opportunity to qualify with some of the standard small arms the Navy uses. I'm qualified as an Expert Rifleman with the M16A2 and the M16A4 (also the M16A3 (SPR)...but it's hard not to qualify with a friggin' sniper rifle so I don't count that ). I'm also Expert Pistol Shot qualified with the Beretta M9.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Mister Elf:
Neither I nor my family (I'm 15) owns any type of gun, but I'm in Navy JROTC and have had the opportunity to qualify with some of the standard small arms the Navy uses. I'm qualified as an Expert Rifleman with the M16A2 and the M16A4 (also the M16A3 (SPR)...but it's hard not to qualify with a friggin' sniper rifle so I don't count that ). I'm also Expert Pistol Shot qualified with the Beretta M9.

Sounds like a combination of amenable candidate and good training has paid off. Congratulations. Going to follow through with the ROTC in college?

[Mister Elf]

Going to compete for Annapolis...if that doesn't work out I'll probably either enlist and go OCS or find a good college with ROTC.

Anyway, back to guns...I like the M16 a lot, but it's supposedly time for a replacement for it. Does anyone who's more familiar with field use of this weapon know some flaws that would require a replacement? (Base your responses on the M16A4 if at all possible; it's always best to have the latest facts...if you don't have experience with the A4, then the A2 is acceptable ).

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Mister Elf:
Does anyone who's more familiar with field use of this weapon know some flaws that would require a replacement? (Base your responses on the M16A4 if at all possible; it's always best to have the latest facts...if you don't have experience with the A4, then the A2 is acceptable ).

There is some discussion about the effectiveness of the 5.56mm round. Unsurprisingly this sort of 'discussion' happens whenever any weapon system becomes mature enough to be "the standard." It happened in the late '30s when it was time to go beyond the Springfield bolt action rifle (a wonderful knock off of the Mauser) and the winner was the Garand-in the same caliber, I must add. After WWII there was a "new school of thought" that apparently never actually did any thought, since it was supposed to look into an "intermediate cartridge" similar to the German 7.9mmKurz and Russian M43 (the AK round). What it came up with was the 7.62X51mm NATO round (we shoved it down NATOs throat because we could) which is NOT an intermediate round in any way shape or form.

Anyway back to shortcomings of the M16 series. There are a few dings against it. If you are not SCRUPULOUS in cleaning it, in certain environments you can wind up with a problem. The powdery dust and sand in the Middleast tends to glue up with the lubricant in the rifle and turn into gunk that can stop the weapon. It takes consistent and vigilant cleaning to prevent this. In other environments, this is not a problem, as the M16 series likes just about any other climate.

Just about any other major complaint has been addressed over the years, better sights and optics being the most obvious ones.

The Army (lead agency for Infantry weapon development) has been running competitions for a successor. They recently stepped back to about square one after some several billions of dollars in development investments.

[Mister Elf]

I had a chance once to fire a G36, which I am told is very similar to the XM8, which the Army was considering to replace the M16 series. I was not impressed...I don't like full-automatic fire on a personal weapon. Accuracy is everything to my style of shooting...and the shorter barrel on the rifle variant of the G36 didn't work too well for that. If they can make a rifle with the M16's accuracy and minimal recoil; while at the same time increasing stopping power, I would definitely consider it.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Mister Elf:
Going to compete for Annapolis...

It's not a competition. You can get straight D's and get in.