[macfantn]

IPhone: GPS Maker "Scared Sh*tless" by GPS in iPhone

interesting

[Cold Warrior]

Even more interesting in the right forum.

Moved.

[ghporter]

Being the kind of person who uses separate devices for separate functions, I'd never even consider using an iPhone for the kinds of GPS activities I do. Hiking, geocaching, saving and recalling physical locations, all of these are wonderfully handled by my under $200 GPS receiver. Why would I want to risk an expensive hand-held computer on my next hike up that steep, rocky slope?

If they're talking about an automated navigator (which is all a lot of people ever think of when they think of GPS) that might be a different issue. Maybe Tom Tom and Magellan need to worry about that. But they make other products too, products that are geared to something other than wandering down the street looking for some particular sushi restaurant.

[Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

If they're talking about an automated navigator (which is all a lot of people ever think of when they think of GPS) that might be a different issue. Maybe Tom Tom and Magellan need to worry about that. But they make other products too, products that are geared to something other than wandering down the street looking for some particular sushi restaurant.

Yeah. This is what they're talking about. But Garmin and Tom Tom do have a problem, as people want less devices; cell phones, preferably the iphone, but all others as well, will just function as "automated navigators" or just regular-use GPS.

[Chuckit]

And TomTom doesn't have that much of a price advantage over the iPhone. The cheapest TomTom is $200, and most of the "modern" ones are over $400.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

And TomTom doesn't have that much of a price advantage over the iPhone. The cheapest TomTom is $200, and most of the "modern" ones are over $400.

The "modern" TomToms I've seen do a lot more than just tell you where to turn. I can't see putting a lot more than simple turn-by-turn navigation in an iPhone and still leaving room for other apps, since this sort of thing takes a lot of storage for maps, voices, etc.

And if they're scared, maybe TomTom will do something about their "premium" pricing. Garmin and Magellan can do similar things to the TomTom units, and they can do it for less. Perhaps competition, especially in the car navigator market, would be a good thing for us all.

[frdmfghtr]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I can't see putting a lot more than simple turn-by-turn navigation in an iPhone and still leaving room for other apps, since this sort of thing takes a lot of storage for maps, voices, etc.

Why would you store maps when you can just grab map sections as-needed from Google?

As far as memory goes, build a 32 GB version, either right away or as memory prices come down.

I agree though that using a GPS-equipped iPhone on a hike would be a bad idea--it's not rugged enough to take a drop on the aforementioned rocky slope.

[ghporter]

You need map storage for when you're not in a well covered area. If you don't have WiFi, Edge, or even cell access, depending on Google maps for navigation is kind of useless. It would need some map storage or it would set Apple up for the liability lawsuit of the century. "I thought I could depend on my iPhone to walk me out of this canyon since I couldn't call anyone for help, but I wound up losing my leg and nearly dying because Apple lied to me." Yeah, it would happen.

[SirCastor]

But as mentioned above, the iPhone isn't really targeted towards the heavy climber. Not being a big hiker/climber, I'm the kind of person that takes my phone virtually everywhere, and I waited and waited for the device that is the iPhone. The reason that GPS makers have to fear a GPS enabled iPhone is that their hardcore target group already owns GPS devices from them. They don't have to worry about those sales. It's new sales that they have to worry about, and those new sales are going to come from a group of people who don't necessarily want an extra device.

[Jammyn]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

But as mentioned above, the iPhone isn't really targeted towards the heavy climber. Not being a big hiker/climber, I'm the kind of person that takes my phone virtually everywhere, and I waited and waited for the device that is the iPhone. The reason that GPS makers have to fear a GPS enabled iPhone is that their hardcore target group already owns GPS devices from them. They don't have to worry about those sales. It's new sales that they have to worry about, and those new sales are going to come from a group of people who don't necessarily want an extra device.

I had planned to pick up a Garmin Nuvi 650 (BT is reportedly buggy in the 660), but I am going to hold off until I see and hear what the GPS functionality is like in the iPhone. In the end, I don't know if I will want to subject my $500+ phone to the rigors of everyday usage as a GPS unit.

Jammyn,

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Jammyn 

In the end, I don't know if I will want to subject my $500+ phone to the rigors of everyday usage as a GPS unit.

If you use your GPS DAILY, I would strongly suggest to get a dedicated unit.

I would think the iPhone GPS is a nice feature for occasional use, but I'm sure that it will be lacking features one would expect from good GPS units. At least until rev. 2.

-t

[ghporter]

Way to hedge, turtle. But I agree that the first iteration of a GPS-enabled iPhone will probably lack a lot of "must have" features that daily GPS users depend on. I don't know that "rev. 2" would make it better, either. Perhaps a universal standard for GPS user data (maps, waypoints, routes) would help make those features easier to implement on the iPhone, but that won't be until later—when enough GPS users get tired of "this map is not compatible with your device" and "user file not copied--format unsupported" when they change hardware (even within a single brand sometimes).

[Randman]

I could see Griffin or someone coming out with a dedicated unit that the iPhone could plug into to make it more of a dedicated unit while on the road. Charge it at the same time too. Maybe even with a car audio unit for calls *though my stereo has this and others do as well*.

[Arkham_c]

I have a Nokia E90 Communicator, which has a GPS in it. For traveling on foot, it does fine, but I doubt I'd ever replace my Garmin Nuvi with it for daily use (driving mostly). It's great for Geocaching though.

[turtle777]

My #1 favorite feature of my TomTom 910 is the remote control. Yes, you heard it right.

It's just so much more comfortable to use the GPS w/o having to lean forward and touch the screen.
This, plus the small screen size of the iPhone would not make me want to replace my dedicated GPS unit.

-t

[ajprice]

The iPhone screen is half an inch smaller, and a higher resolution than a 910.

iPhone - 480x320 3.5" screen
TT 910 - 480x272 4.0" screen.

I have a TT510 with the same size screen, and its fine to use. An iPhone wouldn't replace it for use in a car, but would be good as a streetmap handheld GPS.

[Eug]

It all depends upon implementation. I have no doubt that a company like Google or Apple could write better software than Garmin has for their GPSes. However, I'm not convinced they will do so any time soon.

I suspect I will keep my Garmin Nuvi 350 (which I use in my car) once I get a 3G iPhone, but who knows, maybe Apple will blow me away with their GPS implementation...

[turtle777]

Let's put it like this:

If Garmin and TomTom can NOT differentiate themselves in features and usability, then they truly have no reason to exist any longer.

Me, however, I doubt this will happen anytime soon.

-t

[ort888]

I have a feeling that when and if the iPhone has GPS, that it will not be as fully featured as a standalone unit... but will still robably be good enough for 90% of the people out there.

I would love to have GPS, but I don't really want to spend $200 on a dedicated unit. Any half-assed implementation in the iPhone would be perfect for my usage. I have a feeling most people would agree. The other 10% can go get dedicated units.

That said, if I was a GPS company, I would also be scared. There is also a good chance that the bigwigs at these companies know something that we don't. Rumors, info from old friends now working at Apple, their own parts manufacturers, insiders, etc... etc...

EDIT: Now that I read the article, I see that it basically stated the exact same ting I did. D'oh.

[Kenneth]

I'm in the market for an in-car GPS device. I never looked at a GPS-enabled cellphone seriously. How good are they? I rather have a dedicated unit than using an iPhone.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Kenneth 

I'm in the market for an in-car GPS device. I never looked at a GPS-enabled cellphone seriously. How good are they? I rather have a dedicated unit than using an iPhone.

I have yet to see a GPS-enabled phone used for automotive navigation, but the one smartphone I saw using GPS (it was running Windows Mobile, but I forget the brand of the phone) was not nearly as impressive as the Garmin Nuvi.

For an in-car application, I'd think that you'd need some sort of gadget to hold a GPS-enabled phone in a decent position to get satellite signals and to get directions from. And remember, that steel top in your car will block satellite signals, so you'd pretty much have to have your iPhone on top of the dashboard for this to be effective.

This is one reason I don't see ANY smartphone/iPhone GPS application replacing purpose-built automotive GPS device. Sticking an iPhone or a Blackberry on your dashboard just seems to be asking for mechanical problems, whether from a sudden stop or other mechanical issue.

[Arkham_c]

Originally Posted by Kenneth 

I'm in the market for an in-car GPS device. I never looked at a GPS-enabled cellphone seriously. How good are they? I rather have a dedicated unit than using an iPhone.

The thing that's nice about something like a Nuvi (what I have) or a TomTom is that it's designed to be used in the car. Really bright screen, very secure windshield mount, and big buttons that are easy to hit while you're driving (ideally stopped at a stopsign, but in reality, while driving too) all make for a better experience in the car.

[GORDYmac]

What about the possiblity of TomTom or Garmin writing the GPS app for iPhone? I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Apple to bring one of these companies into the fold for the first GPS iPhone GPS app.

[SirCastor]

It doesn't make much sense for Apple to bring in a third party to write an app. They have more than enough resources, on top of Google contributions. If nothing else, Apple likes to do things a little bit better than everyone else, and if they brought in Tom Tom or Garmin, they'd end up with a Tom Tom or Garmin product...

[kman42]

iPhone GPS will be primarily for looking stuff up, finding nearby businesses, getting accurate directions from a precise starting location. It will just be an extension of what Google maps is mostly used for now.

However, I bet Apple has already partnered with Belkin to design a car-mount to charge the iPhone and hold it in a horizontal orientation. There is no reason that the phone couldn't download the entire map for a particular journey to memory so that it could quickly scroll along the streets as it offers turn-by-turn directions. Apple could offer a single voice, so as not to take up a ton of memory.

I don't think Apple will offer all the high-end features for TomTom or Garmin. They don't have to. Most people don't care about those features. Most of us want to type in an address, pop our phone in the car-mount and have it give us the best directions possible given the current traffic conditions. We then want to park, grab our phone and look up the nearest Starbucks or movie theatre.

Apple will happily concede the higher end and the specialty market to Garmin/TomTom. Besides, someone else will write an application to do all those things that you can download from the AppStore.

kman

[GORDYmac]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

It doesn't make much sense for Apple to bring in a third party to write an app. They have more than enough resources, on top of Google contributions. If nothing else, Apple likes to do things a little bit better than everyone else, and if they brought in Tom Tom or Garmin, they'd end up with a Tom Tom or Garmin product...

'Better' is a bit relative. Apple goes for simplicity & ease of use, not 'better' by my definition--think Numbers vs. Excel.

At any rate, as mentioned, they brought Google in to collaborate, so we must concede that Apple is not above leveraging a partner's tech for v1 implementation. With Google's phone not far away, I bet Apple has met some resistance with GPS integration on the Google front. The final product could easily have Apple's polish.

[Kenneth]

Good to hear that as I was looking for a Nuvi.

[ort888]

I'm a little ignorant on these matters... what is actually involved in putting GPS in a phone? A new internal antenna and some circuitry? How much cost is associated in doing that? Do they have to pay to access the satellites? Is there some sort of fee paid to put a GPS device on the market (like paying into the DVD consortium or whatever?)

Are we going to be looking at a regular iPhone for $399 and an iPhone GPS for $499 or do you think it will just be included across the board?

[ghporter]

Take a look at the add on devices for handhelds; the actual receiver and antenna can be about a 1.5" square about .125" thick. This takes power too, not just for the receiver, but for all the display functions. I'm sure that these functions could be shoehorned into an iPhone case, but the antenna may be a problem because it HAS to be fairly large (that 1.5" square) and it has to face up.

[Arkham_c]

Originally Posted by ort888 

what is actually involved in putting GPS in a phone? A new internal antenna and some circuitry? How much cost is associated in doing that? Do they have to pay to access the satellites? Is there some sort of fee paid to put a GPS device on the market (like paying into the DVD consortium or whatever?)

It's just an additional antenna and circuitry. The interaction with GPS satellites is one-way, so there is no fee required to access them. Your position is determined by triangulation between three satellites. The chips are probably $10-$30.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Arkham_c 

It's just an additional antenna and circuitry.

And software, which IMO is the #1 consideration.

Just putting a GPS antenna and circuitry in the iPhone doesn't mean it will be a good car GPS or whatever.

[Kvasir]

Originally Posted by Kenneth 

I'm in the market for an in-car GPS device. I never looked at a GPS-enabled cellphone seriously. How good are they? I rather have a dedicated unit than using an iPhone.

I have an AT&T Tilt (WM6 PDA phone) and a Brodit car mount and use it all the time for driving navigation. You can install TomTom on it or Garmin, or Nav4all or IGo for those who want maps on the device. Or, as I do, use AT&T Nav (Telenav) for driving (full 3d maps, voice prompts with street names, real time traffic updates - all over the speaker phone or via my Jabra BT8040 headset), or Google Maps or MSN Live Search (ver 3, recently released, is pretty good actually, better then Google Maps in some regards) for those who want a free solution.

I have no desire to have yet another device (GPS) to have to keep track of (and it's charger and a separate car cradle).

My only complaint with the Tilt would be to have a 3+ inch screen and full VGA (it's QVGA). The iPhone's screen would be superb for that, and I'm sure ProClip (aka Brodit) and others would readily make mounts for it.

P.S. In 3G or HSDPA coverage, making/taking calls while Nav is running is seamless too. In an EDGE area, Nav basically hangs while you talk, but it doesn't crash, and usually resumes on it's own once you disconnect (sometimes I have to restart Nav though - I really hope AT&T gets faster at rolling out 3G to the remaining 90% of their network area that doesn't have it yet).

[GORDYmac]

According to Engadget, TomTom will have a GPS app in the AppStore. Sweet.

[- - e r i k - -]

Seriously, with a window mount and TomTom software and iPhone's A-GPS this will spell the end for dedicated GPS units both handheld and in cars.

[SirCastor]

Giving this more thought, I expect that GPS makers have a larger problem on their hands. Not the iPhone, but phone makers in general are going to start sticking GPS in their phones for the sake of competition. I suspect it won't be long before you can find at least 2-3 GPS equipped phones at any provider.

The iPhone has (and will continue to) caused a significant shift in the mobile market and everyone's scrambling to keep up...

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Seriously, with a window mount and TomTom software and iPhone's A-GPS this will spell the end for dedicated GPS units both handheld and in cars.

"Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes."

IPhone 3G: iPhone SDK Agreement Prohibits "Real-Time Route Guidance" and Saving Lives

[Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

"Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes."

IPhone 3G: iPhone SDK Agreement Prohibits "Real-Time Route Guidance" and Saving Lives

Eh... To me that just sounds like Apple is protecting themselves from an eventual lawsuit. I bet even dedicated GPS's say something like "this is not to be used in emergency live-saving situations" and I know for a fact my GPS says something like "don't always rely on these instructions; contstruction or other obstacles may be in the way" and they claim that their routes are "suggestions."

So, either Apple could be preparing to block all GPS software on their phone (don't see that happening), or they are just using the marketing language already used by GPS manufacturers to cover their asses.

Or, Apple is really going to block all other GPS apps, but I could only see this happening if they make their own dedicated GPS app.

[BRussell]

It's the bit about "real time route guidance" that's the problem. I dunno, are there laws on the books regulating what types of devices are allowed to have that sort of thing? Maybe they have to be dash-mounted so people aren't staring at the phone in their laps while they're driving?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

It's the bit about "real time route guidance" that's the problem. I dunno, are there laws on the books regulating what types of devices are allowed to have that sort of thing? Maybe they have to be dash-mounted so people aren't staring at the phone in their laps while they're driving?

Well GPS car mount manufactures seem to get around that somehow.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Well GPS car mount manufactures seem to get around that somehow.

Yeah well I'm just reaching here. I'm sure nodnarb is right and it's a liability issue.

[- - e r i k - -]

Lots of people are now reporting this clause as a fact that we will not see TomTom navigation on the iPhone. I hope this is just misreporting as I'm sure TomTom wouldn't have gone to the effort of porting if they knew Apple wouldn't let them release it.

[frdmfghtr]

Apparently, TomTom has not, in fact, developed any GPS software for the iPhone...

TomTom not working on iPhone nav software?

My money is on the line that says the clause is there so Apple can't be held liable if somebody uses an iPhone for real-time directions and drives off a cliff. To otherwise prevent developers from using the GPS capability is just silly.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by frdmfghtr 

Apparently, TomTom has not, in fact, developed any GPS software for the iPhone...

TomTom not working on iPhone nav software?

I'll take their official statement over a rumor.

[ghporter]

TomTom or not, it would hardly be worth Apple's time to put a GPS system in the new iPhone and then not allow people to use it for navigation. Blocking "autonomous navigation" and "life saving" applications is a lot of CYA; "use at your own risk" is what ALL GPS users have dealt with since the first civilian receiver hit the market.

Of course this SDK thing could mean that Apple has a deal going with a GPS maker other than TomTom, one they haven't yet announced officially...

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by frdmfghtr 

Apparently, TomTom has not, in fact, developed any GPS software for the iPhone...

TomTom not working on iPhone nav software?

My money is on the line that says the clause is there so Apple can't be held liable if somebody uses an iPhone for real-time directions and drives off a cliff. To otherwise prevent developers from using the GPS capability is just silly.

If Apple says they won't allow real-time route guidance software on the iPhone, and then allows it in the App Store anyway, I don't see how they avoid liability.

[BRussell]

More myst for the grill:

TomTom has in fact produced real-time navigation software for the iPhone, according to one of the company's French representatives. Yann Lafargue denies allegations from other sources, which first said that Apple's SDK license forbids real-time navigation, and then that TomTom itself had no internal prototypes. "Since the SDK became available," Lafargue observes, "some of our engineers tried to put Navigator on the iPhone. And the first tests showed that it worked well for the most part."
Regarding the SDK, Lafargue believes that Apple does not have the intention of blocking third-party companies from competing in iPhone navigation. The company "must simply try to protect itself," he says, "in the case a client encounters a problem with his iPhone and a navigation application [and] has the intention of attacking them."

[Kvasir]

Well, remember those idiotic television ads of people driving into buildings as they blissfully (and mindlessly) followed the verbal cues from their nav device.

Any company must protect themselves from the lowest-common-denominator idiot who may try to use their technology. Especially in a country where even Judges sue over dry cleaning issues