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Today's Darwin Award winner (Page 2)
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subego
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Aug 30, 2014, 05:00 PM
 
Which if is true, then there was no point to letting her use it in the first place. If there aren't guns in the house, it's much more reasonable for them to be considered taboo.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 30, 2014, 07:11 PM
 
I don't like either of these points.

Children who are too young to properly grasp the seriousness that a gun is something that can enable them to easily kill a human being deliberately or otherwise (and like it or not that includes children up to and above an age where they can competently shoot) need to revere such an item. Like not running into traffic or getting too close to the edge of a cliff.

I can see that being afraid to touch a gun could negatively impact your ability to use it should you have a genuine need, especially if you're a child, but if you truly need it the chances are you'll be scared anyway. A child needs to know that they do not touch a gun unsupervised unless they need to kill someone. Why else would the child be the one using it except as a last resort because there are no adults to do the job? Thats a kind of taboo by its very nature.
Its a very fine line. A child who is too comfortable with a gun is easily as dangerous as one who is too frightened of it.


As for the foot in the door argument, its just paranoid NRA rhetoric. Newsflash: If your militia is made up of 9 year olds, its too late and you're already in serious trouble.
Is the minimum drinking age a foot in the door for prohibition? Is the age of consent a foot in the door for NAMBLA? What about the minimum driving age? Do you live in perpetual fear that at any minute Obama is gonna make you guys take public transport everywhere? Or walk?
How long have these limits existed without anyone messing with them? And they don't even have a constitutional amendment protecting them do they?

I realise the low-recoil guns already exist, I was just saying that the gun lobby would appear more rational and reasonable if they instigated this sensible age limit on certain difficult to operate weapons. They would earn some respect from the left for being reasonable for once, they keep the gun makers happy by marketing something specifically to appeal to the few gun nuts who would still be outraged by any slight restriction whether it affects them or not (because they would effectively get around it) and they would be in the driving seat on exactly where the lines of age and kinds of weapons would get drawn. Plus lives get saved. Doesn't this sound like a win for everyone?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 30, 2014, 08:50 PM
 
But...Freedom!

If nine-year-olds no longer have the right to shoot their instructors dead with automatic weapons, then the terrorists have won.
     
turtle777
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Aug 30, 2014, 09:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
But...Freedom!

If nine-year-olds no longer have the right to shoot their instructors dead with automatic weapons, then the terrorists have won.
In this case, it was a win-win.

Terrorists have won, AND the dumb instructor is dead.

-t
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 30, 2014, 10:43 PM
 
I think the 9 yr old loses though. Poor kid.
     
subego
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Aug 31, 2014, 01:45 AM
 
@Waragainstsleep

Let's call a spade a spade here. As an American citizen, I am given the right to have the means to end your life.

What is the rationale behind entrusting me with that responsibility, but not entrusting me to determine if my own child can use one under strict supervision?
     
subego
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Aug 31, 2014, 01:57 AM
 
@Waragainstsleep also

I'm confused about the "taboo" part of the discussion. I'm defining "taboo" as "not allowed to touch under any circumstance". Being able to use it under supervision doesn't fit this.

One could argue the supervision restriction is a taboo of its own, but it offers a legitimate outlet. The "under no circumstance" has no outlet, and lack of outlet only serves to encourage the child to defy you IME.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 31, 2014, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I think the 9 yr old loses though. Poor kid.
Whenever gun rights advocates win, Somebody has to lose.

At least it wasn't a whole school full of children this week.
     
turtle777
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Aug 31, 2014, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Whenever gun rights advocates win, Somebody has to lose.
To be fair, that's not always the case.

Ever since Chicago was forced to relax their anti-gun laws and allow concealed carry, gun crimes AND crime in general has NOTICEABLY decreased.

Makes sense, because the bad guys are now not the only ones with guns.

-t
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 31, 2014, 04:13 PM
 
@Turtle
Lets not dredge that pointless argument up again. Chicago was an island of no guns in a sea of guns. Hence, gun crime. Not a great example of anything much.

@Subego
You have the right under certain circumstances to end my life (like if I threaten yours). At the moment in the absence of any laws or restrictions you are indeed entitled to decide what your kids can and can't do with guns. Or are you? Without official restrictions, can you legally infringe your child's right to own a gun? I'm surprised the NRA haven't funded an army of kids to sue their parents over this yet now that it occurs to me.

I am perpetually confused that people think knowing how to impregnate someone or to get yourself impregnated somehow qualifies you to know a damned thing about what is best for another human being.
Since there are no laws against being a total ****wit, and many Americans apparently don't have the sense to not give deadly weapons to children who are incapable of controlling them safely, it apparently must fall to someone more sensible to provide 'mandatory guidance' on the subject.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Aug 31, 2014, 05:17 PM
 
I made a very specific construction, and you've changed it. To be fair, they're similar, but the distinction is important.

What I said: you have the right to carry the means to end someone's life.

This is different from: you have the right to end someone's life.


We have the former here, not the latter.
     
subego
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Aug 31, 2014, 06:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Whenever gun rights advocates win, Somebody has to lose.

At least it wasn't a whole school full of children this week.
As I (and others) have said many times before, freedom carries a price.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 31, 2014, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I made a very specific construction, and you've changed it. To be fair, they're similar, but the distinction is important.

What I said: you have the right to carry the means to end someone's life.

This is different from: you have the right to end someone's life.


We have the former here, not the latter.

Driving a car gives you the means. Chopping veg with a sharp knife means you have the means. All manner of poisons or blunt objects exist that mean anyone can say they have the right to carry the means to kill someone. I'm not really sure why you've bothered to phrase it this way when you take all that into account.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
turtle777
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Aug 31, 2014, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
@Turtle
Lets not dredge that pointless argument up again. Chicago was an island of no guns in a sea of guns. Hence, gun crime. Not a great example of anything much.
Since the genie can't be put back in the bottle, what exactly is YOUR proposed solution ?

Years and years of ever stricter gun laws achieved nothing in Chicago.
One year of relaxed gun laws reduced many crimes by 20%.

-t
( Last edited by turtle777; Aug 31, 2014 at 10:30 PM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 31, 2014, 07:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As I (and others) have said many times before, freedom carries a price.
In some countries, freedom to live is the highest-valued freedom of all.

In some countries.
     
Ham Sandwich
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Aug 31, 2014, 07:42 PM
 
On a slightly related note, 7-year-old shoots 8-year-old cousin in the face | New York Post (Aug. 8)

and also: Grandma Shoots Grandson: 7-Year-Old Shot By Florida Grandmother, Mistakes Him For Intruder, What Happened To The Boy? [PHOTOS] : Trending News : TravelersToday (Aug. 21)

My point is simple. Guns = extremely high responsibility. Doesn't matter what your age is. Know the responsibilities, and know the consequences of gun misuse. If you can't evaluate these on your own (that is, using your own God-given brainpower), then you shouldn't have a gun in your hands.
     
Snow-i
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Aug 31, 2014, 09:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Seems like there is a lot of stupid to go around on this one... but think about this poor girl who will now have this horrific event to deal with for the rest of her life.

Call me old fashioned, but there is no good reason to be teaching a 9 year old to use an Uzi. Maybe take them out in the woods with a 22 rifle... in a very supervised fashion... fine, okay... but come on. Use some common sense people.
     
ghporter
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Aug 31, 2014, 10:24 PM
 
I agree with ort888 on this; there was no good reason for that little girl to be put in that situation - and as I said earlier, I bet her parents didn't have the faintest idea what they were getting her into.

This tragedy is not a time to start thinking about changing laws. It IS a time to start getting adults to start thinking...period. NOTHING about guns is like in the movies, but far more people have their only concept of firearms and what they can do from movies than from actual experience. Where was the range staff when mom and dad said "Let's let little Polly learn about guns here"? "Sorry, she's too small and you obviously haven't taught her anything about guns yet, so no Uzi for her...what about this cool .22 that she's large enough to handle safely?" Obviously they weren't smart enough to tell any potential customer that they weren't really suited to do what they wanted to do.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 1, 2014, 04:38 AM
 
Thats the point. Clearly the range staff at 'Burgers and Bullets' had no issue with this. If people who supposedly know what they are doing aren't smart enough to realise that kids have physical limitations that make handling certain weapons safely impossible, its time to provide some legislation so that it becomes a mandatory part of their training.

Its never time to change the laws when someone has just died? When exactly do you imagine is a good time?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 1, 2014, 05:06 AM
 
Apart from that, there is never a time where somebody hasn't "just died" from gun violence/accident in the US...
     
ebuddy
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Sep 1, 2014, 08:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
@Turtle
Lets not dredge that pointless argument up again. Chicago was an island of no guns in a sea of guns. Hence, gun crime. Not a great example of anything much.
You missed his argument by a mile here. I could understand your response if his argument were simply that guns are tightly restricted in Chicago, but gun crime is higher than other cities with looser restrictions -- however, his argument was that relaxing the laws in Chicago showed a decrease in crime.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Sep 1, 2014, 08:28 AM
 
For what it's worth, the name of the gun range is "Last Stop", not Burgers and Bullets.
ebuddy
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 1, 2014, 09:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
For what it's worth, the name of the gun range is "Last Stop", not Burgers and Bullets.
I've seen two separate reports that called it Burgers & Bullets and only one that called it Last Stop. I just went with the numbers.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ebuddy
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Sep 1, 2014, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I've seen two separate reports that called it Burgers & Bullets and only one that called it Last Stop. I just went with the numbers.
I figured it was because "Burgers and Bullets" sounded more... well, Amerrrikan to you. Folks from the UK usually can't resist. I've seen "Last Stop" used in the more reputable publications.

*As an aside, I've noticed that nationalism in the US is -- GO USA! whereas elsewhere it appears to be "America sucks" implying that of course _(name country of origin here)_ is therefore better.
ebuddy
     
Snow-i
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Sep 1, 2014, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I agree with ort888 on this; there was no good reason for that little girl to be put in that situation - and as I said earlier, I bet her parents didn't have the faintest idea what they were getting her into.

This tragedy is not a time to start thinking about changing laws. It IS a time to start getting adults to start thinking...period. NOTHING about guns is like in the movies, but far more people have their only concept of firearms and what they can do from movies than from actual experience. Where was the range staff when mom and dad said "Let's let little Polly learn about guns here"? "Sorry, she's too small and you obviously haven't taught her anything about guns yet, so no Uzi for her...what about this cool .22 that she's large enough to handle safely?" Obviously they weren't smart enough to tell any potential customer that they weren't really suited to do what they wanted to do.
Another fantastic post.

Faith in humanity restored after seeing ort and glenn's posts
     
el chupacabra
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Sep 1, 2014, 10:30 PM
 
Are Darwin awards a bad thing?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 2, 2014, 06:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Are Darwin awards a bad thing?
They are given posthumously to people for having the decency to remove themselves from the gene pool via their own stupidity. So yes and no.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ghporter
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Sep 2, 2014, 06:58 AM
 

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 2, 2014, 07:25 AM
 
i was (perhaps somewhat cynically) wondering earlier whether it would even apply in this case — the kid offed the instructor, and I'm not sure it's the instructor's stupidity so much as the parents', or rather: they conspired to make this happen, but both parents live to reproduce, and their own extant offspring is still in the gene pool, so...
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 2, 2014, 10:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
i was (perhaps somewhat cynically) wondering earlier whether it would even apply in this case — the kid offed the instructor, and I'm not sure it's the instructor's stupidity so much as the parents', or rather: they conspired to make this happen, but both parents live to reproduce, and their own extant offspring is still in the gene pool, so...
In the end, if you're the one who handed the 9 year-old the uzi, and further, didn't properly brace her, then yes, you caused your death.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 2, 2014, 12:42 PM
 
I guess.

Being European, I'm prone to seeing this as an expected result of lax gun "culture", but it does make sense if you see it that way.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 2, 2014, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I guess.

Being European, I'm prone to seeing this as an expected result of lax gun "culture", but it does make sense if you see it that way.
Lax gun culture leads to the idea that putting an uzi in a 9 year-old's hands is not a bad idea.
     
Laminar
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Sep 2, 2014, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Apart from that, there is never a time where somebody hasn't "just died" from gun violence/accident in the US...
Awesome.
     
unicast reversepath
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Sep 2, 2014, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Stupidity leads to the idea that putting an uzi in a 9 year-old's hands is not a bad idea.

fixed that for you
If you have Ghosts, you have Everything!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 2, 2014, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Lax gun culture leads to the idea that putting an uzi in a 9 year-old's hands is not a bad idea.
Exactly.

Which would mean that this culture is in itself Darwin-Award-worthy for weeding out its own members from the gene pool.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 2, 2014, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Exactly.

Which would mean that this culture is in itself Darwin-Award-worthy for weeding out its own members from the gene pool.
There are degrees of lax, however. I think you'll find most aren't 9 year-olds should handle uzis lax.
     
Snow-i
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Sep 2, 2014, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Exactly.

Which would mean that this culture is in itself Darwin-Award-worthy for weeding out its own members from the gene pool.
So it's a self correcting issue over the long term. Problem Solved!
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 2, 2014, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
So it's a self correcting issue over the long term. Problem Solved!
As this incident aptly illustrates, there would be a bit of collateral damage along the way. like with this girl's psyche.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 3, 2014, 06:19 AM
 
That'a nature, I guess.
     
mindwaves
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Dec 28, 2015, 12:42 PM
 
{{{ mindwaves }}}
     
turtle777
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Dec 28, 2015, 12:55 PM
 
LOL, yes, I read about it this morning on the crapper. Brilliant.

It's ironic that natural selection happened at a condom vending machine. Condoms should have prevented the creation of that "idiot" in the first place.

-t
     
 
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