[aehaas]

Obviously this is just a generalization. My wife and I have been Mac users of multiple machines at any given time, since 1988 -a desktop or two and a portable or two (4 machines right now- G4 800dp, G5 dual 1.8dp, 867? Ti PBook and 1.5 AL PBook). I run the same programs on each. These include at least Quark, Quicken, Word, Panorama, Photoshop, Starry Night, World Book, Route 66, Print Explosion, Ultimate Solitaire, Sigma Chess, and most Apple supplied programs.

Being a business man I always opt for whatever may work best- cost does not count. I always buy Apple RAM (I am hiding behind a cement barrier for protection). I usually buy the most RAM the machine takes at the time of purchase except the dp 1.8 - it has only 4 gig of RAM. Speed is money.

Here is my point: I have sometimes had problems as on these boards. I have never had RAM problems. Since i go for the extra "gizmos" too I run into trouble. Over the years the OS has picked up functionality and I have diminished the "fun but not really needed" add ons. I had a ton of stuff (extra extensions) in OS 9. My problems have decreased over time compared to those who keep adding on those extras, because I have matured and use few add-ons now.

I have had the "mouse moves, but the cursor does nothing else, happen" problem of the longest thread going on now. I have had other problems that usually go away when creating a new user. Last week i used NUM - Speed disc and compacted my HD's. I through away Norton Anti Virus and Default folder and something else in my start up folder. I have been problem free since then.

'Point is that we ruin our systems by our own volition. I think that if we kept our system pure there would certainly be less to worry about.

I am sure that Apple tests things but they cannot be asked to test every single program out there. When Apple makes a change it is for future or current OS improvements. It is the responsibilities of the other programmers to stay in compliance. I think it is Apple's responsibility to inform major programmers of OS changes. They have to ready their own programs to make sure they work well.

Now mind you that a million lines of programming is hard to work on so each company must be given time to do the work. The 64K program no longer exists.

aehaas

Smart people learn from their mistakes, Really smart people learn from other's mistakes.

[gorickey]

I agree, yet disagree all at the same time.

[Macola]

Good points in general. But, y'know, Apple doesn't manufacture that expensive RAM...

[RayX]

-

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by aehaas:
snip :

Last week i used NUM - Speed disc and compacted my HD's. I through away Norton Anti Virus and Default folder and something else in my start up folder. I have been problem free since then.

'Point is that we ruin our systems by our own volition. I think that if we kept our system pure there would certainly be less to worry about.

snip:

Good post. However, you [we] may not have ruined y[our] system by volition. You installed a company's product on your Mac, that had bad effects. They are somewhat to blame too.

If we kept our lives as pure as our computers, what might happen then ?

I never buy RAM from Apple, if I can buy it some where else.

[Link]

I'd love to rip this post in 10 pieces but I'm too lazy.

The "Panther Locks Up - Move Mouse But Nothing Else" thread is about an ongoing issue which involves a process known as LOOKUPD. Lookupd has a flaw in it which causes it to screw up somehow with the swapfile, and since it's so well tied into the system the whole OS freezes when such event occurs.

For the upteenth time I would like to clarify that this is NOT a hardware problem, it is NOT a 3rd party software conflict. It is SIMPLY a problem with apple's lookupd implementation.

If you cannot understand that, then you're on no grounds to bash it. For some people the fixes work better than for others, and so far there are a few that work:

1. Airport software downgrading...
2. Dshadow's unlockupd (http://www.dshadow.com/software/unlockupd)
3. Defragging your hard drive entirely.

So far, none has shown COMPLETE fixing for everyone who has to deal with the issue, so what can I say? *shrug* Essentially the issue can be pretty random, and for some reason certain programs can cause it more than others (MOST LIKELY BECAUSE THEY PAGEIN/OUT more.)

I suggest that before you go bashing people and their 3rd party software you take a look at these things a bit more in depth. Frankly my machine is still stock, and while I run a few 3rd party programs I've never heard of any problems with those.

As for that whole smart people/really smart people stuff -- smart people use spellcheck when writing posts; Really smart people read their own posts jusssttt to make sure that the whole thing sounds right, ya know?

[Kristoff]

I reported a similar bug in 5S60 on 17-Jun-2002 that is still in "Open/Analyze".

Hehehe.....I guess it's not one of their top priorities.

Incidentally, I haven't had the mouse freeze issue.

[mitchell_pgh]

Apple is responsible for some things, but I also know that they can't predict every possibility.

With OS X, an application shouldn't bring down the system.

That being said, installing every hack in the book and then bitching that the system crashed is foolish.

[Fredo]

Even spell catcher won�t tell you the difference between �threw � and �through�. I guess you have to be slightly smart to know that one.

[Laurence]

If you are just getting application crashes/freezes (including finder.app) then I agree that it is not Apple's fault (with the exception of the Apple apps) but if you get a kernel panic it is always Apple's fault. The OS should not panic even if I plug in a USB/Firewire/IDE/etc device that it doesn't recognize/understand.

If the hardware is good (ie it works on a different computer - PC or Mac) then the OS should notify you gracefully that this device is unsupported and disable it rather than bringing down the entire system.

Luckily, since replacing my defective RAM about a year ago I haven't had one kernel panic since.

BTW, the RAM caused my XP machine to randomly crash as well but issues such as that are a bit harder to nail down on that end.

[Superchicken]

The add ons you talk about generally don't ruin machines. Short of software hacks there's very few things you can really do to ruin your Mac. I use a Wacom tablet granted it gives me KPs for some reason on start up if plugged in, but aside from that my Camera, mouse, printer, hub game pad, and whatever the heck else I have that goes with it doesn't give me problems. The only problems I ever run into are those that come up after a system update through software update. I've gone back to X.3.3 very painfully I might add because I'm just that sick of dealing with problems in the recent updates.

[Maflynn]

Funny,
I was composing this long and insightful comment in argument that extending and configurig the system to suit one's needs and enjoyment is a welcome feature when I releceived a KP. Presumably by either path finder which I just d/l or hardware monitor which I just purchased to monitor the temp, fans and other things of my G5.

Well I guess its my own fault as I eat a slice of humble pie.

One parting shot, Apple is not off scott free, they themselves have releasesd buggy Operating systems (10.0) and updates and applications.

Overall OSX is a much more stable rich and effecient OS then windows and KPs are really a infrequent occurance to the majority of us.

Mike

[Hop Pocket]

It would be nice if for some items Apple could create a plug-in architecture that was more robust. For example, a way to run haxies in a very protected environment. I'm not too knowledgeable about the subject, but it seems that programs that hook into special system events pretty much get the run of the system if they are so inclined.

Should a driver get to destroy the OS runtime? I'd hope not, but time and time again I see support threads about kernal panics resolved with "updated my driver, fixed now".

That extra protection, of course, would be met with less performance possibly, so I'm sure it's a tradeoff to some degree.

[Superchicken]

I'd like to see Apple developers more promptly say hey we're working on fixing, oh lets say problems with Wacom tablets for example.

[Detrius]

As far as Apple not being the cause of people's problems, I have one thing to say:


I have my job for a reason.

[Azzgunther]

Originally posted by Hop Pocket:
It would be nice if for some items Apple could create a plug-in architecture that was more robust. For example, a way to run haxies in a very protected environment. I'm not too knowledgeable about the subject, but it seems that programs that hook into special system events pretty much get the run of the system if they are so inclined.

One could just create a partition with a separate and isolated OSX installation.

[Macpilot]

So I guess it is not Microsoft's fault when their product fails?

Or Ford's fault when the gas tank explodes.

I realize Apple can not test all possible scenarios in which their OS will be used, however, when a majority of users of a particular OS have the same problems, that is something that is Apple's fault.

Luckily, Apple has responded fairly well to these issues, and I am thankful for that!

Heck, the only problems I have with Panther are the icons changing and some other minor issues.

I was lucky not to lose any data with the firewire drive issue back when Panther first came out.

[macmike42]

Originally posted by Detrius:
As far as Apple not being the cause of people's problems, I have one thing to say:


I have my job for a reason.

I don't believe in perfection, but I think this may be a perfect post.

As for the original poster, come on! You can't honestly believe that Mac OS X is perfect. Can you?

[itai195]

Originally posted by Laurence:
If you are just getting application crashes/freezes (including finder.app) then I agree that it is not Apple's fault (with the exception of the Apple apps) but if you get a kernel panic it is always Apple's fault.

That's not exactly true. There are still third party apps out there (eg Symantec's) that use kernel extensions. These apps can cause a kernel panic and it isn't Apple's fault.

That said, I agree and disagree with the original poster. Obviously, the less you tinker with the system, the fewer problems you should encounter. But there are still issues that Apple is responsible for. This shouldn't come as a shock, but every software company knowingly ships buggy software. The extent to which the public considers the software buggy depends only on how many people are affected by the bugs and how serious they are (eg one that erases your entire hard drive would qualify as 'pretty bad'). Consumers have pretty much come to expect to encounter bugs once in a while (ever since VisiCalc shipped without a warranty) but we are also still entitled to certain quality expectations and an expectation that the software developer's remediation processes are satisfactory.