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quietjim · Mar 17, 2003, 01:29 PM

I'm a member of a national denomination and the head technology guy has announced all media will be delivered in format for Windows Media Player. He is very committed to Microsoft (I suspect that's because it's what he knows). His argument is that it would cost a lot more to deliver video and audio in Quicktime format.

I'm not an expert on servers or streaming, but this doesn't sound right to me. I've pointed out that WMP on the mac is just not workable.

But I need help. Specifically, does anyone know of a cost comparison for WMP versus Quicktime?

Secondly...he claims he already has the content formatted for WMP and it would be difficult to translate it. Is there an application to do the translation? Does it need translation?

I sit on a committee that reviews these decisions...all amateurs like me, the rest not as committed to the Mac. I need information that will help me convince them to require that our stuff is available for Quicktime. Thanks!

Ganesha · Mar 17, 2003, 03:01 PM

Windows Media:

Software/OS: Windows Media Services 9, which requires Windows Server. (Pro: It�s Windows. Con: It�s Windows.)

Typical Encoder: Windows Media Encoder (free) (Pro: Free is good. Con: You are locked into Windows Media)

Media Distribution Fees: Free (Pro: Free is good. Con: You are locked into Windows Media)

QuickTime:

Software/OS: QT Streaming Server which requires Mac OS X Server or Darwin Streaming Server which has precompiled binaries for Mac OS X (10.1.3 or better), Red Hat Linux 7, Solaris 8 and Windows NT/2000 Server. Source code is available, so if you can compile it you can run it. (Pro: Choose your own software/hardware platform Con: Requires more tech know how for low end solutions.)

Typical Encoder: QT Pro ($30) (Pro: Can use many different media encoders: Con: Not free.)

Media Distribution Fees: Media distribution fees vary widely, from free (those who make all the profit off selling the encoder) to many pennies (those who want to make money everywhere). However, in almost all cases if you are the copyright holder and you are distributing content �for free� there are no fees associated. Note: Not all encoders define �for free� the same, check with the patent holder for exact details. (Pro: Choose your own encoder, can be free. Con: Some encoders cost money)

If your providing downloadable clips all you care about is the encoder/distrbution fees.

Since Darwin Streaming Server runs on Windows, you may be able to stream both QT content and WMV content.

If your providing downloadable clips there is no reason you can't provide them in both formats.

KeyLimePi · Mar 17, 2003, 05:38 PM

Want a totally non-techical reason? I've never been able to jump from point to point while viewing something with Windows Media Player. Not in streamed broadcasts, not in local files. Quicktime not only lets you jump around but it gives you that great visual fast-forward and rewind.

Probably doesn't help much, but that's just me.

symonsl · Mar 17, 2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by quietjim:
Secondly...he claims he already has the content formatted for WMP and it would be difficult to translate it. Is there an application to do the translation? Does it need translation?

You can use an application called "Cleaner" to translate from WMP to quicktime. It's not cheap, though - US$599: http://www.discreet.com/products/cleaner/

Uncle Skeleton · Mar 17, 2003, 08:47 PM

cleaner writes wmv and rm files, but does not read them. for some leads on transcoding asf/wmv files, see here. The short version is, try ffmpeg or mencoder in OS X, or EO-Video in windows

quietjim · Mar 19, 2003, 11:54 AM

Thanks so much for all the help. I'm going to print these off and bring them to our committee meeting. I really think this is much more a matter of someone doing what they want because it's what they know than technical issues. I appreciate the help in getting the ammunition to make my case!

klinux · Mar 23, 2003, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
Want a totally non-techical reason? I've never been able to jump from point to point while viewing something with Windows Media Player. Not in streamed broadcasts, not in local files.

Really? Is this in WMP for Mac or Windows? Certain ASF or WMV files do not let you do not thta but otherwise I can skip around fine.

sleepyrenderer · Mar 29, 2003, 01:12 PM

If video fidelity is a concern then unfortunately QT6 MPEG4 doesn't fare so well:
QT6MPvsWM9.png

The above link is a frame comparison someone posted to arstechnica between QT6 MPEG4 and WM9 at 500kbits/s. QT6 being the top row and WM9 the bottom. If I remember correctly it was based off the Codec Shootout site's high motion/low motion video comparison.

Hopefully it will stay up a while... I'm not sure if the owner minds us leeching his bandwidth but he did leave the image up all this time...

Buckaroo · Apr 13, 2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by sleepyrenderer:
If video fidelity is a concern then unfortunately QT6 MPEG4 doesn't fare so well:
QT6MPvsWM9.png

The above link is a frame comparison someone posted to arstechnica between QT6 MPEG4 and WM9 at 500kbits/s. QT6 being the top row and WM9 the bottom. If I remember correctly it was based off the Codec Shootout site's high motion/low motion video comparison.

Hopefully it will stay up a while... I'm not sure if the owner minds us leeching his bandwidth but he did leave the image up all this time...

I have had nothing but pain with all wmv files. On both window or mac platforms. The most important issue as far as which to choose from. I would choose the platform that would allow the user to save in other formats. So that kills wmv since I don't believe you can save any wmv format within the Windows media player into any other format. If I am wrong, please advise.

I hate wmv and avoid any and all material released in that format.

My ignorant opinoin is, iIt just sucks.

Sleeprederer, what level of compression are you using? I know that you can adjust mpeg4 in Quicktime and end up with some outstanding material, but I am no expert. I just hate wmv.

plyxrbo · May 30, 2003, 08:46 AM

another good compromise is to use cleaner to write your files to .mpeg (mpeg-1) format. your files would be able to be enbedded in any webpage and ANY platform could read the files.

i work for a large school district and have stopped trying to shove quicktime down folks throats (IT people are notorious mac-haters anyway). however, i can post all my content for the network on my qtss in .mpeg format and people who receive the files never know the difference. they play the files in whatever player they have on their machine: windows media player, quicktime, or real media.

sleepyrenderer · Jun 1, 2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Buckaroo:

The most important issue as far as which to choose from. I would choose the platform that would allow the user to save in other formats. So that kills wmv since I don't believe you can save any wmv format within the Windows media player into any other format. If I am wrong, please advise.

hate wmv and avoid any and all material released in that format.

My ignorant opinoin is, iIt just sucks.

You can convert from WMV to uncompressed AVI or ISO Standard MPEG4 using Microsoft's Windows Media Encoder (you can also use it to convert from WMA to uncompressed PCM audio).

Sleeprederer, what level of compression are you using? I know that you can adjust mpeg4 in Quicktime and end up with some outstanding material, but I am no expert. I just hate wmv.

I didn't encode the video or do the frame comparison. The videos were originally from codecshootout.com which no longer seems to exist. They compared a ton of different video formats at lots of different bitrates and their forums had experienced users contributing the best settings to use from many platforms. If I remember correctly the one place QT6MP4 fared well was extremely low bitrates (like 64kbs). With more standard bitrates like 500kbsec it was left far behind by other formats like 3ivx, wm9, DivX5, xvid and real.

Personally, if I didn't need to worry about compatibility I'd probably encode everything into xvid mpeg4. Unfortunately since Quicktime only supports a subset of MPEG4-(advanced) simple profile you'd be forcing your Mac viewers to use VLC/mplayer which probably isn't an option.