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Are Mac users still stuck with an OS 9 mentality?
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besson3c
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:25 PM
 
Back in the day, if you needed something that wasn't a part of the OS, you went hunting for Shareware.

Now, there is a ton of capability included within the BSD layer that allows Mac users to do all sorts of things that many seem completely unaware of (both with Apple's included bits as well as other open source software which can be downloaded and installed fairly easily).

I know that doing this requires taking on a bit of a learning curve. I know that doing this requires some additional time initially. However, what is gained is a ton of flexibility, reporting ability, power, control, and is all available free-of-charge.

Why are many Mac users so wimpy about taking full advantage of their machines? Why do many default to hunting down shareware, and having to work with the developer of that shareware title to get what they want? Do many Mac users abide by the "money is no object" philosophy?

Many of these open source tools included in the OS have been used in extremely mission critical environments for *years*. There is no quality control issue here. In fact, more often the bottleneck often lies with the GUI than the command line tool itself, where a piece of shareware is simply providing a GUI interface for a CLI tool.

There is also *so* much support available online. Why do some Mac users get all wimpy when it comes to opening up the terminal, and then struggle with the limitations of a shareware tool?

Perhaps this is a Windows mentality too.
     
Doofy
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:30 PM
 
Perhaps if they included a printed manual when you buy your Mac?
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besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
Perhaps if they included a printed manual when you buy your Mac?

That printed manual would need to be extremely thick to even scratch the service with what can be done in a command line shell.

Here are some examples of great tools I use all the time (in no particular order):

1) du/df -h

2) rsync over SSH using public key authentication - absolutely ideal for backups. Throw the job into a crontab schedule, enable Postfix (so that your Mac can send email), and you can be emailed when a backup fails.

3) scp/curl/wget

4) find

5) Apache/MySQL/PostgreSQL/PHP/Perl and you can run any web app (Mediawiki, Gallery, forum software, AWstats, etc.)

6) traceroute, host, dig, ping, etc.

7) screen + command line Bittorrent = ideal downloading of large files over Bittorrent

8) tail -f of log files

9) ClusterSSH is a lot of fun
     
euchomai
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:48 PM
 
I don't even have time to learn what your post meant, much less how to do it.
...
     
Doofy
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:49 PM
 
Let's take one example...

Originally Posted by besson3c
3) scp/curl/wget
...

Code:
man wget
No manual entry for wget
See? Gotta go download it. So might as well download SiteSucker.

---
I know what you're saying, but thing is they don't make it easy for non-geeks. And if Mac users were proper geeks, they'd all be running FreeBSD on cheap homebrew systems, not OS X on Macs.
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besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:51 PM
 
Just to reiterate my argument:

I understand the draw towards ease-of-use... I really do.

However, what I don't understand is why some people would rather shell out $20 for some piece of shareware rather than learn something new when the latter often results in a better and more flexible tool anyway?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by euchomai
I don't even have time to learn what your post meant, much less how to do it.

So everybody just shells out money thinking they will be saving time? WHen happens when the shareware tool breaks and/or they can't get support, or whatever?

In many cases, it takes more time to simply circumvent learning the tool in the first place in a more direct fashion.
     
chris v
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:53 PM
 
God made developers so us end-users could click a button instead of having to use some arcane terminal command, and spend half our lives trying to decipher man pages, looking for the correct -flag to make it do what we want.

I'm glad the terminal is there for the times when nothing else will do, but if there's something free that'll make it clickable within a GUI, what's the matter with using it?

I'm labeling your post 63% silly.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
Doofy
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
However, what I don't understand is why some people would rather shell out $20 for some piece of shareware rather than learn something new when the latter often results in a better and more flexible tool anyway?
The "it just works" mentality?

I would *love* to be able to run everything off a *nix prompt (then I'd be able to well and truly ditch this metrosexual hardware and get something red with a skull on it). But I simply don't have the time (and possibly inclination) to learn how to do it all.
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besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
Let's take one example...



...

Code:
man wget


See? Gotta go download it. So might as well download SiteSucker.

---
I know what you're saying, but thing is they don't make it easy for non-geeks. And if Mac users were proper geeks, they'd all be running FreeBSD on cheap homebrew systems, not OS X on Macs.

I understand your argument, I really do... In many cases these Shareware/Freeware tools are free or good karma-ware (whatever you call software that accepts your word that you've paid for the software) anyway...

However, why do people default to looking for something to buy, rather than looking to see how difficult it would be to doing the same job for free?

In the case of wget, all you have to do is install XCode, install DarwinPorts, type in:

sudo port install wget

and call it a day... You can use wget simply by entering:

wget -r "http://websiteurl"


If people knew this, would they be more likely to give this a try?
     
Doofy
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:56 PM
 
While we're here, how does one go about sending man pages to the printer?
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besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v
God made developers so us end-users could click a button instead of having to use some arcane terminal command, and spend half our lives trying to decipher man pages, looking for the correct -flag to make it do what we want.

I'm glad the terminal is there for the times when nothing else will do, but if there's something free that'll make it clickable within a GUI, what's the matter with using it?

I'm labeling your post 63% silly.

The problem is these tools aren't often free, nor do they offer the same wealth of features.

Take rsync for instance. Show me a tool that offers the same sort of flexibility in doing network directory syncs in a secure manner? Why not just learn how to enter:

rsync -av /path/to/source [email protected]:backup_directory

and call it a day? There are 23948209348 websites about doing this.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
The "it just works" mentality?

I would *love* to be able to run everything off a *nix prompt (then I'd be able to well and truly ditch this metrosexual hardware and get something red with a skull on it). But I simply don't have the time (and possibly inclination) to learn how to do it all.

The "it just works" mentality is far more appropriate with many of these command line tools that have been around for years.

Take some GUI backup application... if something goes wrong, I rely on its logging and/or error checking. If it uses some bizarre error reporting, doesn't report anything at all, or flat-out doesn't work, what are my courses of action?

If I were to use a tool like rsync, once setup to work it will work indefinitely, but even if it doesn't I could Google the problem and have an answer in a few minutes. Plus, I can micromanage how it behaves and make my life easier by customizing it so that it works exactly how I want it to.
     
Adam Betts
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
7) screen + command line Bittorrent = ideal downloading of large files over Bittorrent
How is command line any more ideal than GUI for downloading of large files?




vs.


I know it's windows but it's the only command-line bittorent screenshot I can find.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
While we're here, how does one go about sending man pages to the printer?

Open a new Terminal/iTerm window, display the man page, and print... You should be able to print everything on screen and in your Terminal's buffer, AFAIK.

Short of that, you'd have to locate the man page file, and print the file from the CLI or using TextEdit or something.

I've done so little printing that I'm not certain about all of this though.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Adam Betts
How is command line any more ideal than GUI for downloading of large files?




vs.


I know it's windows but it's the only command-line bittorent screenshot I can find.

Because I can SSH into my work machine where the connection is faster, start the download remotely, close up my home machine/power it down/whatever, and come in in the morning to a completed download. This is far faster than having to initiate this over VNC/ARD.
     
Adam Betts
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
Because I can SSH into my work machine where the connection is faster, start the download remotely, close up my home machine/power it down/whatever, and come in in the morning to a completed download. This is far faster than having to initiate this over VNC/ARD.
See the thing is you have different needs. Majority of us don't need to do this kind of stuffs. I just want to open a torrent and let it do its job then quit the app. No need in learning the commands for every kinds of jobs.
     
zmcgill
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
In the case of wget, all you have to do is install XCode, install DarwinPorts, type in:

sudo port install wget

and call it a day... You can use wget simply by entering:

wget -r "http://websiteurl"

If people knew this, would they be more likely to give this a try?
Oh boy, that's all they have to do? I mean, that's just common sense!

If I want to download a web page, it's easiest for me to go to versiontracker or macupdate and search for a program to use. I did a few searches on google and couldn't find anything outlining how to do this via the terminal. So frankly, it's easier for me to grab a piece of shareware/freeware and do it.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Adam Betts
See the thing is you have different needs. Majority of us don't need to do this kind of stuffs. I just want to open a torrent and let it do its job then quit the app. No need in learning the commands for every kinds of jobs.

Yes, but I don't think my circumstance is that unusual. Many people have more than one machine, one of them being a laptop. Don't you think these people would want to use the laptop to initiate the download, but to be able to take the laptop offline, put it to sleep, or whatever?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
Oh boy, that's all they have to do? I mean, that's just common sense!

If I want to download a web page, it's easiest for me to go to versiontracker or macupdate and search for a program to use. I did a few searches on google and couldn't find anything outlining how to do this via the terminal. So frankly, it's easier for me to grab a piece of shareware/freeware and do it.

THe problem here is, not everybody knows what to search for in instances like this. If you had searched for "download website wget", you would have found something. If you had searched for "download website terminal", you would have come up short.

For starters, "terminal" is not a term that everybody uses, but secondly, a tool like wget is a very swiss army knife type tool. If you search for something very broad in scope, you might not find what you are looking for. It would be like searching for "Goodyear 1985 Ford Festiva" (maybe this example isn't very good, but I hope you get my drift =)

I understand what you are trying to say though, but I'm still puzzled why it seems to take a lot for some Mac users to want to learn how to do something beyond point and click when several of their rationalizations in many cases aren't completely sound.
     
piot
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
du/df -h

rsync over SSH using public key authentication. Throw the job into a crontab schedule, enable Postfix.

scp/curl/wget

traceroute, host, dig, ping, etc.

tail -f of log files
I think maybe you should get out more, and meet some real people.

ClusterSSH is a lot of fun
Sounds like it!
Piot
     
Kevin
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:33 PM
 
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:37 PM
 
If the person in question always wants a way to do something cheaper (but more complicated), why would that person even have a mac? Wouldn't they be using linux on some ancient home-built athlon machine?

The whole point of the GUI (and of the mac as well) is for things to be self-explanatory, no documentation needed. The CLI is the complete opposite of what macs are designed for.
     
TETENAL
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:37 PM
 
Pick up the phone, call your mother and explain to her how to install and use wget on her Mac to download a website. Report back how it worked out. You then will understand why we don't use it.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by piot
I think maybe you should get out more, and meet some real people.



Sounds like it!

I could say the exact same thing about people who enjoy making pretty artwork and graphics and other such content, or people who enjoy skinning Aqua, but I don't... to each their own, but I find this utterly boring, and prefer to learn how to make my computer work for me. Lots of career opportunities here too.

Why is it that many Mac users seem to take a very high minded approach when it comes to "thinking outside of the box?" What you have said here is nearly the furthest thing from thinking outside of the box imaginable... basically "think outside the box, but only as far as is the social norm among other Mac users on MacNN?"

Some people think that thinking outside of the box includes simply replacing the Windows GUI with another GUI.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
Pick up the phone, call your mother and explain to her how to install and use wget on her Mac to download a website. Report back how it worked out. You then will understand why we don't use it.

Why would Mom need to download an entire website anyway? I understand what you think you are saying, but this is a poor example.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton
If the person in question always wants a way to do something cheaper (but more complicated), why would that person even have a mac? Wouldn't they be using linux on some ancient home-built athlon machine?

The whole point of the GUI (and of the mac as well) is for things to be self-explanatory, no documentation needed. The CLI is the complete opposite of what macs are designed for.

Good point. I used to believe this, and still do for the most part. However, haven't you found yourself in an instance where there simply weren't nice pointy and clicky tools available to do something you want to do?

I keep on returning to backups as an example, but I think it's a good one. There are no pointy and clicky backup tools included in OS X, so what is a user to do?

They find some Shareware and download it... That applies to most people. However, what if it ends up sucking? They download some more Shareware... okay...

Well, if a lot of this Shareware is simply a GUI to rsync, why not cut-to-the-chase and simply learn the tool?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 05:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin

HAHAH... it's a dog with potato chips in its mouth!! That's awesome!!!!

Hehehehe.... look at it!


Brilliant post.


A dog!! Hehehe.... what is it doing with potato chips in its mouth? That's crazy....


Hehehehhe.... just look at that dog!
     
goMac
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
While we're here, how does one go about sending man pages to the printer?
You should be able to pipe the man page output to a printer, although it's been a while since I've taken a UNIX lab, and while I did this under SCO Unix (shudder), I'm not sure how OS X abstracts it's printing sub system under BSD.

Edit: My opinion? No user on any platform should ever be forced to learn the terminal for normal operation. The Mac is not Debian Linux. Mac OS X is a great UNIX platform if you want to work in the command line. But I don't look down on the users that don't like the command line.
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piot
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:10 PM
 
OK. Seriously now!

Besson, I am sure that your suggestions regarding cool things to do in terminal are valid, but my point is that most people just don't care.

People who know how to do this stuff.... are doing it already!
People who WANT to do this stuff... know where to go and learn about it.
People who DON'T WANT to make their computing experience more technical don't care (as above)

About 250 million PCs will be sold this year. The ratio of geeks to everyone else is getting larger and larger. Why do you think that the first question tech support asks is "Have you switched the power on?" ...?

Originally Posted by besson3c
What you have said here is nearly the furthest thing from thinking outside of the box imaginable...
I disagree. I am thinking outside the computer box.

Some people think that thinking outside of the box includes simply replacing the Windows GUI with another GUI.
And most people don't know what a GUI is ..... and, believe me, would never even contemplate changing it!
Piot
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
Edit: My opinion? No user on any platform should ever be forced to learn the terminal for normal operation. The Mac is not Debian Linux. Mac OS X is a great UNIX platform if you want to work in the command line. But I don't look down on the users that don't like the command line.

Nor do I, I didn't like the command line for years myself... it wasn't until I needed stuff that necessitated learning Unix that I became interested. I don't like learning new Unix tricks for the sake of learning Unix tricks.

But, I can't help thinking that there are others like me who do have needs that necessitate learning a little more Unix, but go to great lengths to avoid doing so. I say to them: just learn the tool, you'll be glad you did. The old adage "knowledge is power" is true, and Unix gives you direct access to do a lot of stuff that would otherwise be frustrating with various levels of abstraction to deal with as well.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by piot
OK. Seriously now!

Besson, I am sure that your suggestions regarding cool things to do in terminal are valid, but my point is that most people just don't care.

People who know how to do this stuff.... are doing it already!
People who WANT to do this stuff... know where to go and learn about it.
People who DON'T WANT to make their computing experience more technical don't care (as above)

About 250 million PCs will be sold this year. The ratio of geeks to everyone else is getting larger and larger. Why do you think that the first question tech support asks is "Have you switched the power on?" ...?



I disagree. I am thinking outside the computer box.



And most people don't know what a GUI is ..... and, believe me, would never even contemplate changing it!

I see your point. I should have prefaced or edited my original post to say "Mac power users" - i.e. most of us here.
     
goMac
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
But, I can't help thinking that there are others like me who do have needs that necessitate learning a little more Unix, but go to great lengths to avoid doing so. I say to them: just learn the tool, you'll be glad you did. The old adage "knowledge is power" is true, and Unix gives you direct access to do a lot of stuff that would otherwise be frustrating with various levels of abstraction to deal with as well.
Do you have any examples?
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:23 PM
 
mac users ≠ unix coders, for the most part. and even if you do find the manual for wget or whatever, it's bazillion pages long and not written in god's english.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
Do you have any examples?

Well, anybody that is in charge of system administration of a significant number of machines (including Macs) would benefit from learning about different authentication methods, security techniques, backups, remote administration of machines, good server admin techniques, etc.

Sure there are tools like ARD, OS X Server GUI tools, but at some point it is best to understand how Kerberos works if you are authenticating via Kerberos, to learn a little about LDAP if applicable, to learn about SSH public key authentication, etc. In many areas, OS X does not help you along with these tasks (e.g. setting up public key access, Kerberos keytabs, etc.)

Setting up firewall rules is another example, the GUI will only take you so far.

Setting up backup solutions is another good example - Retrospect kind of sucks (we used it for a while at my old job, we liked aspects of it, but others left us with control we desired, and occassionally it failed to do its job at all with no real report or indication of such).

Certainly setting up websites is another good example, the OS X Server tools will only configure Apache to a point...

Scripting things... Automater probably does not handle scripting of certain administrative tasks

Reporting on things... troubleshooting things... Lab management....


A lot of these fall under the category of system administration and development, but in some cases these are tasks that Mac power users have to take on - especially when put in charge of Mac labs and such. Like I said, all of these GUI tools are just another layer of abstraction that sometimes get in the way.

And yes, I've worked in all Mac environments before, so I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. I've also done a lot of web development and support for people. Running a small business, I also have lots of FreeBSD and Linux experience. In my current job, I help manage email servers for some 120,000 users, just to completely disclose my background so you have a better sense where I'm coming from.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi
mac users ≠ unix coders, for the most part. and even if you do find the manual for wget or whatever, it's bazillion pages long and not written in god's english.

When a GUI tool fails you, what do you do? Surely these inexplicable circumstances aren't written in God's English either.
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:28 PM
 
Using the Terminal sucks for 98.3% of Mac users.

/thread
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
Using the Terminal sucks for 98.3% of Mac users.

/thread

How many of us here are responsible for systems admin work? For website development? For backing up data? For running email servers? How many are interested in doing things like replacing .Mac?

I'd like to think there are more of us *here* than 98.3%. I conceed that in the world as a whole, this percentage of users is miniscule. This is not what this thread is about though.
     
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:41 PM
 
Yes, by and large, Mac users are still stuck in the world of user-friendliness, the poor bastards.
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besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Yes, by and large, Mac users are still stuck in the world of user-friendliness, the poor bastards.

Yes, and user friendliness is great, but we've all been to the point where we are out of the reach of user-friendliness, and just dealing with computer crud - including on the Mac.


Why does it seem like I'm trying to defend myself against a herd of people saying the same things? Is this some Mac/MacNN pack mentality, or am I that far out in left field?
     
goMac
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Jun 4, 2006, 06:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
Sure there are tools like ARD, OS X Server GUI tools, but at some point it is best to understand how Kerberos works if you are authenticating via Kerberos, to learn a little about LDAP if applicable, to learn about SSH public key authentication, etc. In many areas, OS X does not help you along with these tasks (e.g. setting up public key access, Kerberos keytabs, etc.)

Setting up firewall rules is another example, the GUI will only take you so far.

Setting up backup solutions is another good example - Retrospect kind of sucks (we used it for a while at my old job, we liked aspects of it, but others left us with control we desired, and occassionally it failed to do its job at all with no real report or indication of such).

Certainly setting up websites is another good example, the OS X Server tools will only configure Apache to a point...

Scripting things... Automater probably does not handle scripting of certain administrative tasks

Reporting on things... troubleshooting things... Lab management....


A lot of these fall under the category of system administration and development, but in some cases these are tasks that Mac power users have to take on - especially when put in charge of Mac labs and such. Like I said, all of these GUI tools are just another layer of abstraction that sometimes get in the way.

And yes, I've worked in all Mac environments before, so I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. I've also done a lot of web development and support for people. Running a small business, I also have lots of FreeBSD and Linux experience. In my current job, I help manage email servers for some 120,000 users, just to completely disclose my background so you have a better sense where I'm coming from.
Ok, I'm trying to figure out where this affects the average user...

I've worked with morons who don't know how to manage labs with UNIX and run all their machines as root, but that's not as much stubborn Mac user as it is incompetent Windows user hired for the job.

Not to mention, I love OS X server for it's GUI tools.
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:02 PM
 
I dabble in Unix, and it would be great to be able to get more serious with it. I'd love to be able to do all sorts of cool things, as long as I would be able to actually accomplish what I set out to do in a timely manner. And that's the problem - I would have to devote a lot of time to learning more powerful Unix techniques, and I have more important things to do with my time. Case in point is when I tried to do chmod octals. I think I eventually figured it out, but it was such a difficult process that I failed to gain the requisite knowledge to do it again, and I have little interest in attempting to use chmod in the future.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
Ok, I'm trying to figure out where this affects the average user...
Like I said, it doesn't necessarily, although some may dabble in some of these areas, I don't know... this is about Mac power users, the kinds of people that would be in charge of these sorts of tasks.

Not to mention, I love OS X server for it's GUI tools.
OS X Server is great for smallish environments, but it sucks when it comes to working on larger scales. Its LDAP management is a little quirky too, and it's a PITA to have to carefully plan for restarts for the silliest of updates (not to mention, deal with stuff that the updates break, which happens from time to time).
     
Chuckit
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
Yes, and user friendliness is great, but we've all been to the point where we are out of the reach of user-friendliness, and just dealing with computer crud - including on the Mac.
Users are not comfortable with a command-line and compilers. That's what you were suggesting as an alternative to normal apps, right? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.


Originally Posted by besson3c
Why does it seem like I'm trying to defend myself against a herd of people saying the same things? Is this some Mac/MacNN pack mentality, or am I that far out in left field?
It seems more likely that you disagree with the general Mac mentality than that I was totally going to agree with you, but then I saw other people thought something else and I was compelled by the power of MacNN to say what they were saying.
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analogika
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:17 PM
 
This thread is idiotic.

Why do people pay mechanics to fix their cars, when all it takes is a little getting used to tinkering inside the engine compartment?

I mean, really.

Here are some things fixed on my car recently:

New tyres set on the old rims
New heater plugs (diesel engine)
oil change
new clutch
new gear-stick mechanism
brush and bearing replacement in the generator
new brake pads
new brake lights
new brake pedal light switch
new front light

I mean, seriously, there's TONS of literature available on this, for every single model of car, and the internet has a WEALTH of resources.

What I don't get is why people would rather PAY for stuff they can do themselves for FREE?


Maybe it's because people actually pay money to have a system where they only have to interface with the parts they're comfortable dealing with?

I don't WANT to know about all that stuff under the hood of my car. I don't care, and I don't have the time or energy to deal with a bunch of info and learn a whole new set of skills and tools. I just want to drive it and get on with my life.


How this is anything but completely obvious I don't understand.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Users are not comfortable with a command-line and compilers. That's what you were suggesting as an alternative to normal apps, right?
Maybe, maybe not...

There is a whole world of Unix apps and Unix tools, and the Unix way of doing things... Some of these apps have binaries available. Some are X11 apps. Some are faceless CLI only apps. There are many GUI tools for these same faceless CLI only apps available under X11. There is a lot of stuff out there.

However, again, and I hope this sinks in this time to all of you: I'm not talking about ordinary, average Mac users. To a systems administrator, if saving lots of time and effort and making life easier for everybody meant taking the time to install XCode and compiling the app - big deal? Really, as long as the app compiles cleanly, this can be done in a few simple memorizable steps.

Now, again, I'm not saying that this is within the reach of ordinary average Mac users, just to make myself clear.


It seems more likely that you disagree with the general Mac mentality than that I was totally going to agree with you, but then I saw other people thought something else and I was compelled by the power of MacNN to say what they were saying.
Not sure what you're saying here?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
This thread is idiotic.

Why do people pay mechanics to fix their cars, when all it takes is a little getting used to tinkering inside the engine compartment?

I mean, really.

Here are some things fixed on my car recently:

New tyres set on the old rims
New heater plugs (diesel engine)
oil change
new clutch
new gear-stick mechanism
brush and bearing replacement in the generator
new brake pads
new brake lights
new brake pedal light switch
new front light

I mean, seriously, there's TONS of literature available on this, for every single model of car, and the internet has a WEALTH of resources.

What I don't get is why people would rather PAY for stuff they can do themselves for FREE?


Maybe it's because people actually pay money to have a system where they only have to interface with the parts they're comfortable dealing with?

I don't WANT to know about all that stuff under the hood of my car. I don't care, and I don't have the time or energy to deal with a bunch of info and learn a whole new set of skills and tools. I just want to drive it and get on with my life.


How this is anything but completely obvious I don't understand.

I'm glad you are so quick to judge this thread, this really adds... I would vote that many other threads we've had are more idiotic than this, but I guess you are more interested in talking about something else, cool. Nobody was forcing you to post here.

Some people do learn about their cars in order to do those tasks (I'm not one of those people). Like you said, most people pay for the convenience of having somebody else they trust do this for them. But what if there are no competent mechanics around, and the options just don't look very good?

If you've worked on computers long enough, you'll know that there is a lot of bullshit software out there that does not do what is advertised, and sometimes no other options exist, or sometimes the options are too expensive, lacking ability, etc.

How is this so hard to understand?
     
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:21 PM
 
Are you really sure that the majority of sysadmins don't use command-line tools or Unix programs?

The first post sounded like it was talking about normal users, but now apparently sysadmins can't use wget? That's kind of news to me.
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goMac
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
Maybe, maybe not...

There is a whole world of Unix apps and Unix tools, and the Unix way of doing things... Some of these apps have binaries available. Some are X11 apps. Some are faceless CLI only apps. There are many GUI tools for these same faceless CLI only apps available under X11. There is a lot of stuff out there.

However, again, and I hope this sinks in this time to all of you: I'm not talking about ordinary, average Mac users. To a systems administrator, if saving lots of time and effort and making life easier for everybody meant taking the time to install XCode and compiling the app - big deal? Really, as long as the app compiles cleanly, this can be done in a few simple memorizable steps.

Now, again, I'm not saying that this is within the reach of ordinary average Mac users, just to make myself clear.
As a system administrator, I don't want to spend my time compiling something and getting it to work. This is why I'm a Mac admin. Things just work. If there isn't a binary available, sure, I'll compile the app, but otherwise I'm not messing with source or the command line.

This is coming from someone who codes as part of his sys admin job.
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TETENAL
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Jun 4, 2006, 07:25 PM
 
In the first post he was talking about regular users. System administrators are not "hunting for shareware".
     
 
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