[Athens]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

But of course, everybody *loves* Canadians like you

-t

No one pays any attention to Canada. ebuddy totally misses the point of why America is hated around the world and how the world sees America, true or not and tries to point out things Canada has done or does not do because im Canadian even though its irrelevant of world opinion of the US. When you ask a Indian or a Italian why they don't like America, pointing out that some members of the Canadian forces volunteered on there own to serve in the Iraq war under the Americans means absolutely nothing to them. It was still the US that invaded. It was still the US that lied about weapons of Mass Destruction. Canadian war ships escorting American war ships means nothing to the French person or the Dutch person. It was still America's war. So ebuddy pointing out a bunch of useless information is just that useless. His typical America is the best America does no wrong attitude is what makes every one else laugh and despise Americans and even others to pity them.

More political interference examples

Copyright Lobby Wants Canada Out of TPP Until Stronger Copyright Laws Passed - Slashdot

[turtle777]

Ok, so let's summarize this:

USA
* people hate it for foreign wars
* people love it for many things, like Apple products, good education, other lifestyle products etc.

CANADA:
* nobody gives a shit.

-t

[Athens]

Fixed

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Ok, so let's summarize this:

USA
* people hate it for unjust illegal wars
* people hate it for the political interference and bulling other nations
* people hate it for protecting Israel from War Crimes
* people hate it for many self serving foreign policies that create or make worse problems
* people hate the We are the Best Attitude
* people hate the We are the Strongest Attitude
* people hate the general arrogance towards the rest of the world.
* people love it for some things, like Apple products, the American Dream (mostly fantasy), American Entertainment, American Food.

CANADA:
* nobody gives a shit.

UK
* nobody gives a shit.

Australia
* nobody gives a shit.

Iceland
* nobody gives a shit.

-t

[turtle777]

Fair enough. But nobody cares about Canada. That includes your opinion

-t

[Athens]

Thank you for being so American

[Waragainstsleep]

I don't think the American dream is all that popular outside of America. If it is, people don't call it that. Not sure about american food either. Nothing against it (though I gather cheese is not your strong suit) but I'm not aware of any I would consider all that special or unique. The outsiders impression is that you just get more of it per meal.

[besson3c]

Turtle, for $50 I'll be your valentine this year. After you have some of my love you'll be much happier, trust me.

[ghporter]

That might just depend on what you think of as "the American Dream". I think of it as the possibility that, with enough hard work and integrity, I can be almost anything I want to be. No money? Hard work fixes that. No connections? Hard work fixes that too. Not smart? Who says so and what do they know (the second part is the most important). To me, the American Dream is not at all "filthy rich," "life of leisure," or "power," but rather a drive toward self actualization. Speaking as an American, I do not know where the avarice and greed interpretation came from, but I certainly wish for it to go back where it came from and bedevil whomever it was that thought it up.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

That might just depend on what you think of as "the American Dream". I think of it as the possibility that, with enough hard work and integrity, I can be almost anything I want to be. No money? Hard work fixes that. No connections? Hard work fixes that too. Not smart? Who says so and what do they know (the second part is the most important). To me, the American Dream is not at all "filthy rich," "life of leisure," or "power," but rather a drive toward self actualization. Speaking as an American, I do not know where the avarice and greed interpretation came from, but I certainly wish for it to go back where it came from and bedevil whomever it was that thought it up.

I share a similar take on the American dream, but I'm finding that as globalization spreads and grows that your description here is sort of that of a generic first world country. I'm not saying this to be critical of America, I just think that it is probably a natural byproduct of globalization.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

That might just depend on what you think of as "the American Dream". I think of it as the possibility that, with enough hard work and integrity, I can be almost anything I want to be. No money? Hard work fixes that. No connections? Hard work fixes that too. Not smart? Who says so and what do they know (the second part is the most important). To me, the American Dream is not at all "filthy rich," "life of leisure," or "power," but rather a drive toward self actualization. Speaking as an American, I do not know where the avarice and greed interpretation came from, but I certainly wish for it to go back where it came from and bedevil whomever it was that thought it up.

-t

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

That might just depend on what you think of as "the American Dream". I think of it as the possibility that, with enough hard work and integrity, I can be almost anything I want to be. No money? Hard work fixes that. No connections? Hard work fixes that too.

Yeah, you guys definitely don't own this philosophy. Hard work was around a long time before America. No one else would call this the american dream.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Not smart? Who says so and what do they know?

This is fine as long as"they" are wrong. You can have the "Its ok to be proud of being dumb" implication that comes when "they" are right.

[ghporter]

For perspective, when I was 6, my family was poor, very poor. My father was out of work due to a year-long strike, and there was no work available for him or my mother. We re "on relief," meaning that we got surplus foods (peanut butter and cheese were great, powdered milk not so much), but no financial support. We lost our home, Mom found a job that required a very long commute, and we moved in with her parents. Less than 10 years later, we were squarely in the middle class, but only because Dad was back at work and working rotating shifts and Mom was still working at that long-commute job.

I spent over 23 years in the Air Force doing jobs that were usually pretty unpleasant in one way or another, and often in unpleasant places. But that service also allowed me to go to school, and I earned two associate degrees and a BS while on active duty. When I retired, the VA made further education possible, and I earned another BS and a professional masters degree. I am now an occupational therapist, (which has nothing to do with what I did in the Air Force), I help people every day, and I am well compensated. I cannot say I was born to do this, but I can certainly say that this is the best fit for me of any job I've ever heard of. And I got here thorugh the "sweat of my brow" so to speak.

I think my story is one of the American Dream; very poor kid who finds his place and makes a difference in other people's lives every day. Yup, that's me. Going through all this has made me feel pretty good for myself too.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Athens 

No one pays any attention to Canada. ebuddy totally misses the point of why America is hated around the world and how the world sees America, true or not and tries to point out things Canada has done or does not do because im Canadian even though its irrelevant of world opinion of the US. When you ask a Indian or a Italian why they don't like America, pointing out that some members of the Canadian forces volunteered on there own to serve in the Iraq war under the Americans means absolutely nothing to them. It was still the US that invaded. It was still the US that lied about weapons of Mass Destruction. Canadian war ships escorting American war ships means nothing to the French person or the Dutch person. It was still America's war. So ebuddy pointing out a bunch of useless information is just that useless. His typical America is the best America does no wrong attitude is what makes every one else laugh and despise Americans and even others to pity them.

Let me rehash the flow of the conversation. You, in the best show of xenophobia yet, suggested that ghporter is a clueless American. While I don't always agree with him, I certainly wouldn't characterize him as clueless. I try to be patient with folks like you who are merely ignorant because information may be useful to you, but when you're both ignorant and belligerent, it indicates to me that perhaps you are the last one to suggest that someone else is clueless. It also suggests that your outrage is bullsh!t and clueless. I won't suggest all Canadians are this clueless because of course that'd be a moronic generalization based on its apparent, lowest common denominator. When you deflect from the Canadian contribution, you're in essence making excuses for your representatives acting in their own interests, just as the hated Americans do.

Nowhere in this discussion have I even hinted that America is the best and can do no wrong. I spend most of my friggin' time here railing on the actions of my government. You have a problem that facts and information cannot address Athens; xenophobia.

It was the US and 46 other countries that invaded. It was most of the international community that "lied about WMDs" as the point of contention was never whether or not Saddam was a threat, it was how to address the threat. There were 13 UN Resolutions against Iraq over the span of 12 years. If what you're trying to tell me is that folks are fascinated by American politics, perhaps you're correct. I mean, you appear more focused on the actions and behaviors of the US government while having absolutely no clue of your own, repeatedly getting corrected on your misunderstanding of Canadian law by other Canadians.

You have fanciful presuppositions that you picked up in a few documentaries and somehow this makes you qualified to hate an entire country of people? If there's American exceptionalism at play here, it's certainly not me perpetuating it ya friggin' cyber-bully. See this is why Americans like me don't give a flying rat's a$$ what dumbasses think of us.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Yeah, you guys definitely don't own this philosophy. Hard work was around a long time before America. No one else would call this the american dream.

That's not the point,.
Hard work is NOT around anymore in many countries.

Look at Europe. 35h workweek, 6 weeks paid vacation, unlimited sick days, job for life even if you rape the CEO etc...

-t

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I don't think the American dream is all that popular outside of America. If it is, people don't call it that. Not sure about american food either. Nothing against it (though I gather cheese is not your strong suit) but I'm not aware of any I would consider all that special or unique. The outsiders impression is that you just get more of it per meal.

The only 2 major things the US exports to the world these days is food and culture. Processed ready to eat food is American. All the modern food is made out of mixtures of corn and sugar. This is whats exporting around the world

[Big Mac]

Athens, you're coming off might dopey in this thread. Hugely clueless. Are you being sarcastic? The US is the largest manufacturing industrial nation in the world by a wide margin even with relative industrial decline and high unemployment we've experienced in recent times.

Can China compete with American manufacturing? | TIME Business | TIME.com

According to United Nations data, the U.S. is still the largest manufacturing country in the world. In 2009, American manufacturing output (in real terms) was nearly $2.2 trillion. That’s about 45% larger than China’s, at just under $1.5 trillion.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Athens, you're coming off might dopey in this thread. Hugely clueless. Are you being sarcastic?

Stop beating on him, he's just being Canuckistani.

I really don't get what people get out of this constant "The US sucks" bickering. Does that make them feel smart, or superior ? More cultured ?

-t

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Let me rehash the flow of the conversation. You, in the best show of xenophobia yet, suggested that ghporter is a clueless American. While I don't always agree with him, I certainly wouldn't characterize him as clueless. I try to be patient with folks like you who are merely ignorant because information may be useful to you, but when you're both ignorant and belligerent, it indicates to me that perhaps you are the last one to suggest that someone else is clueless. It also suggests that your outrage is bullsh!t and clueless. I won't suggest all Canadians are this clueless because of course that'd be a moronic generalization based on its apparent, lowest common denominator. When you deflect from the Canadian contribution, you're in essence making excuses for your representatives acting in their own interests, just as the hated Americans do.

I think Glenn is pretty smart actually and value a lot of the stuff he says. I think he is clueless in a narrow area on what people around the world thinks about the US.

Nowhere in this discussion have I even hinted that America is the best and can do no wrong. I spend most of my friggin' time here railing on the actions of my government. You have a problem that facts and information cannot address Athens; xenophobia.

You are confusing my personal opinions with what I was stating as world opinions. I know a lot of it is incorrect or exaggerated. But that does not change the overall world view. Americans are arrogant and self centered and do have bad attitudes and bad foreign policy. But again you just prove my points how you ignore the truth and live in a little box. Instead of accepting that America isn't popular around the world for very different reasons then you believe you call me xenophobic instead and dismiss everything.

It was the US and 46 other countries that invaded. It was most of the international community that "lied about WMDs" as the point of contention was never whether or not Saddam was a threat, it was how to address the threat. There were 13 UN Resolutions against Iraq over the span of 12 years. If what you're trying to tell me is that folks are fascinated by American politics, perhaps you're correct. I mean, you appear more focused on the actions and behaviors of the US government while having absolutely no clue of your own, repeatedly getting corrected on your misunderstanding of Canadian law by other Canadians.

That's not how people see it. That might be the truth of the matter but guess what, people around the world sees it as a US invasion. A US war. US lies. Hell every one has forgotten about the UK's role in it. 46 other countries involved, irrelevant. 13 UN resolutions against Iraq, irrelevant. That has no barring on peoples opinion. Which is what this is all about. How do Italians, and Spanish, and French, and Japaneses see these events. Bush and his war machine, that's it. So keep making this a Canadian thing and a personal thing, all you are doing is making yourself look like a Typical American.

You have fanciful presuppositions that you picked up in a few documentaries and somehow this makes you qualified to hate an entire country of people? If there's American exceptionalism at play here, it's certainly not me perpetuating it ya friggin' cyber-bully. See this is why Americans like me don't give a flying rat's a$$ what dumbasses think of us.

Spoken like a true American (Dont give a flying rats a$$ what every one things of us)

Stop confusing personal feelings towards the US with general world opinion. Just educating you what most of the world thinks about you. Its never been about "Freedom and Money" as you have been taught to believe.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Stop beating on him, he's just being Canuckistani.

I really don't get what people get out of this constant "The US sucks" bickering. Does that make them feel smart, or superior ? More cultured ?

Yeah, it does. It really does make the foreigners with inferiority complexes feel a lot better. Of course, in truth we do suck and are getting worse every day as our governments (mostly federal but also state) grow malignantly, violently out of control, threatening to sink the country and world into chaos. But the productive part of the country is still greater than anywhere else.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Athens, you're coming off might dopey in this thread. Hugely clueless. Are you being sarcastic? The US is the largest manufacturing industrial nation in the world by a wide margin even with relative industrial decline and high unemployment we've experienced in recent times.

Can China compete with American manufacturing? | TIME Business | TIME.com

I would like to see the stats on tonnage vs dollars, because the wage and cost of production and goods are so different between China and the US. More important is this "For statistical reasons, I chose to use figures that include mining and utilities as part of manufacturing." which kinda skews the number of just pure manufacturing.

And if you are starting from the middle of the thread, a recap. Glenn said the world hates the US because the US is more free and richer then every one else. I was only pointing out general world opinions. Not all of which I share. ebuddy is off on some quest to ignore world opinions and make this into some Canadian thing, being typical ebuddy.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That's not the point,.
Hard work is NOT around anymore in many countries.

Look at Europe. 35h workweek, 6 weeks paid vacation, unlimited sick days, job for life even if you rape the CEO etc...

-t

And higher educational test scores, possibly proportional/per capita contributions to the sciences. These seem to be at odds with the picture you seem to be trying to paint here as Europeans not being as hard working.

Americans work longer hours and have payoff middle class wages (that haven't grown) because of the slow and steady corporatization of our politics and our drive to amass (and feel entitled to) material possessions. This is a reflection of American culture, which is unique. That Americans work longer hours doesn't make them smarter or more driven. In fact, in many ways I'd argue the opposite.

That being said, I don't want to payoff over what ghporter wrote. America still is a land of opportunity, but my point was that this has changed in recent years with the onset of globalization and the virtual death of American manufacturing.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Athens, you're coming off might dopey in this thread. Hugely clueless. Are you being sarcastic? The US is the largest manufacturing industrial nation in the world by a wide margin even with relative industrial decline and high unemployment we've experienced in recent times.

Can China compete with American manufacturing? | TIME Business | TIME.com

When one has these discussions I think one needs to be specific. Are we talking about manufacturing that is *based* out of America where the factories are actually overseas, or manufacturing that is 100% American including its factories?

Obviously the latter is on its death bed, if not already dead.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Stop beating on him, he's just being Canuckistani.

I really don't get what people get out of this constant "The US sucks" bickering. Does that make them feel smart, or superior ? More cultured ?

-t

It's just an endless cycle of feeling put on the defensive because of remarks like the very remarks you've made in this thread about how other countries don't matter, about how Canadians are Canuckistani, etc. It feeds into this stereotype that Americans are arrogant, and others feel compelled to try to point this out so that Americans are aware of this.

I don't understand why Americans like yourself don't adopt a more strong and silent type approach. You don't need to put people on the defensive for people to recognize areas where America is superior.

Then again, putting people on the defensive is sort of a thing you do. I'm not criticizing you, nor am I saying that I don't do the same, but you shouldn't act surprised that this cycle is being perpetuated.

[Big Mac]

"Obviously the latter is on its death bed". . . Did you read the article, besson? If so, check your reading comprehension. It's talking about goods manufactured in the United States.

When you see all the things Made In China it's easy to assume that nearly everything is made there and that US manufacturing is all but dead. It's a very popular, very reasonable misapprehension, but it's very wrong.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Yeah, it does. It really does make the foreigners with inferiority complexes feel a lot better. Of course, in truth we do suck and are getting worse every day as our governments (mostly federal but also state) grow malignantly, violently out of control, threatening to sink the country and world into chaos. But the productive part of the country is still greater than anywhere else.

Another weird American thing is constantly needing to reassure themselves how great they are. How many politicians have *not* used phrases like "only in this country", "the greatest nation on Earth", etc.? Many Americans seem to need constant reassurance that they are still the best at something.

I don't understand the insecurity. Again, it takes real strength to be the strong and silent type.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Obviously the latter is on its death bed. . . Did you read the article, besson?

So then, can we be the largest manufacturing nation without the factories? How does one make these claims while accounting for differences in population?

[Big Mac]

Manufacturing GDP is not directly tied to population or wage factors. It's a measurement of the value of the industrial gross product produced by a country in a given year.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Manufacturing GDP is not directly tied to population or wage factors. It's a measurement of the value of the industrial gross product produced by a country in a given year.

Which is what I figured. So then, how do we make claims about America being a large or the largest manufacturer in a meaningful way? I mean, with our population and the fact that there are still a lot of companies based out of America it is no surprise that we'd have a high GDP, but how can you make comparisons about the relative strength of our manufacturing sector compared to other countries while keeping the comparison apples vs. apples?

All I'm saying is that these sort of statements seem to require so many caveats that they seem pointless, other than to make a bottom-line statement which should be of surprise to no one.

[Athens]

The United States is just the most visible meddler in the world today. At the turn of the century this role belonged to the British Empire which had her meddling in the affairs of the world. From the 50's to the 80's this was shared between the USSR and the United States. Since the USSR collapse that has left the US as being the sole country left as being seen as a interfere of every one else business. And its as much the US government as it is Corporate America which is taking a larger role then the US government. Large US corporations are making a mess everywhere and this reflects back on America as a whole. Look at what the US has done since World War II when it left isolation and started getting in every one else's business. And I know the intentions started off well. Originally it was to promote freedom and democracy. But that has not been the mission for the last 20 years. The last 20 years have been to protect American business and business interests globally. The US went from being well liked and loved to hated in a very short time. And a lot of that started with the second Iraq war and G.W. Bush. Americans have always been thought of as rude and ignorant as long as I can remember. But not actually hated. But the interference in drug policies, copyright policies and economic policies all around the world has changed this. Through agencies like IMF as one example the US has also been causing a lot of damage to 3rd world countries to benefit large international American based companies.

I'll give you one example

FRONTLINE/WORLD . Bolivia - Leasing the Rain . Timeline: Cochabamba Water Revolt | PBS

IMF and World bank forces Bolivia to privatize its water. The biggest beneficiary of this is Bechtel, the company that built the Hoover Dam. IMF and World Bank are both identified as US institutions. Bechtel a large US company benefits from this deal. Regardless of the intentions of the IMF and World Bank and Bechtel, good or bad, for financing debt or for American interests, the people who suffered from the privatized water only see the American side of it. Americans made our government privatize the water. American company made water un-affordable. Americans made it illegal to collect rain water. American interference. The people of Bolivia end up blaming Americans.

This kind of scenario repeats all over the third world.

And the US is not the only one to blame. European companies are catching up. Private donations to charities like UNICEF gets given to private companies to build water infrastructure in Africa. Because the charities only collect money, they do not have the means to actually make wells and water networks themselves they contract out companies to do it. They also create contracts with those companies to manage the resource as well. So these companies get funding from donation to build wells, and then charge locals money to use the wells like smart card systems. So in villages that didn't have clean access to water before now have wells that provide clean water but no one can afford to use them and still go get water from the dangerous sources. In this example its a European company that manages the water.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's just an endless cycle of feeling put on the defensive because of remarks like the very remarks you've made in this thread about how other countries don't matter, about how Canadians are Canuckistani, etc. It feeds into this stereotype that Americans are arrogant, and others feel compelled to try to point this out so that Americans are aware of this.

I don't understand why Americans like yourself don't adopt a more strong and silent type approach. You don't need to put people on the defensive for people to recognize areas where America is superior.

Then again, putting people on the defensive is sort of a thing you do. I'm not criticizing you, nor am I saying that I don't do the same, but you shouldn't act surprised that this cycle is being perpetuated.

Thats one of the best posts I have seen from you. Its true. Im trying to correct Glenn and by doing so putting Americans on the defense. ebuddy is doing the same thing with me trying to put me on the defense. Not that it was working because its true no one gives a dam about Canada or most other countries for that matter

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

"Obviously the latter is on its death bed". . . Did you read the article, besson? If so, check your reading comprehension. It's talking about goods manufactured in the United States.

When you see all the things Made In China it's easy to assume that nearly everything is made there and that US manufacturing is all but dead. It's a very popular, very reasonable misapprehension, but it's very wrong.

Explain the import to export disparity. Its why I said I rather see the tonnage vs dollar value. Because 1 400 000 runners from China will still be a lower value to say a Boeing 747. Its hard to accept it is as strong as that article makes it out to be when you see the manufacturing base in most major cities disappear replaced by parks, condo's and retail.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Manufacturing GDP is not directly tied to population or wage factors. It's a measurement of the value of the industrial gross product produced by a country in a given year.

More points on this. From the CIA factbook it states under GDP

note: because China's exchange rate is determine by fiat, rather than by market forces, the official exchange rate measure of GDP is not an accurate measure of China's output; GDP at the official exchange rate substantially understates the actual level of China's output vis-a-vis the rest of the world; in China's situation, GDP at purchasing power parity provides the best measure for comparing output across countries (2010 est.)

With that said also from the CIA factbook

world leader in gross value of industrial output; mining and ore processing, iron, steel, aluminum, and other metals, coal; machine building; armaments; textiles and apparel; petroleum; cement; chemicals; fertilizers; consumer products, including footwear, toys, and electronics; food processing; transportation equipment, including automobiles, rail cars and locomotives, ships, and aircraft; telecommunications equipment, commercial space launch vehicles, satellites

The industry labor force alone is 220 Million people.

For the United States from the CIA factbook

highly diversified, world leading, high-technology innovator, second largest industrial output in world; petroleum, steel, motor vehicles, aerospace, telecommunications, chemicals, electronics, food processing, consumer goods, lumber, mining

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't understand why Americans like yourself don't adopt a more strong and silent type approach. You don't need to put people on the defensive for people to recognize areas where America is superior.

Wow, just wow.

Coming from a Canuckistani who loves to create threads just to troll for controversial discussions.

I wish you would shut up adopt a more strong and silent type approach every once in while.

-t

[Athens]

besson3c is Canadian?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Athens 

besson3c is Canadian?

Yes. Does that sudden realization hurt ?

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Wow, just wow.

Coming from a Canuckistani who loves to create threads just to troll for controversial discussions.

I wish you would shut up adopt a more strong and silent type approach every once in while.

-t

Dude, you have ZERO clue what trolling is. Don't even use that word, it makes no sense to anybody but you the way you use it.

I really don't get what people get out of this constant "The US sucks" bickering. Does that make them feel smart, or superior ? More cultured ?

Now that you have benefited from my insight into your question, my work is done here. You're welcome.

Have you ever thought about doing a documentary on me?

[Waragainstsleep]

$2.2 Trillion versus $1.5 Trillion?

Are we sure that 45% isn't just the shipping costs and markup?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

besson3c is Canadian?

Yes he is. You would know if one of you guys would get off your ass and make the besson3c documentary.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Yes. Does that sudden realization hurt ?

-t

No, I just had no idea. Getting arrested is going to be a lot harder lol (different thread)

I'll make the besson3c documentary, just have to find a besson3c to play the part of besson3c

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

No, I just had no idea. Getting arrested is going to be a lot harder lol (different thread)

Okay, that's just racist.

I'll make the besson3c documentary, just have to find a besson3c to play the part of besson3c

Maybe George Clooney?

[ghporter]

Just for the record, I never really addressed what people outside the US thought about the US. I talked about "the American Dream," and how my own idea of what that means differs from other people's ideas of what it means, without quite specifying what "other people" I meant. So basically I just addressed my own idea of the American Dream. I honestly don't give a rat's naked tail what people elsewhere think of the US, since at a basic level they still actively compare many things to us, and since American culture, for good or bad, is actively sought rather than being pushed anywhere. Sure, Hollywood cashes in when they can, but not because they even bother to market to most places. They sell what people ask them for.

[Athens]

Before that, you did. First page.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Athens 

United States has more Corporate freedom while many places around the world have more PERSONAL freedom.

Hopefully we can all agree on that one

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Athens 

You are confusing my personal opinions with what I was stating as world opinions. I know a lot of it is incorrect or exaggerated. But that does not change the overall world view. Americans are arrogant and self centered and do have bad attitudes and bad foreign policy. But again you just prove my points how you ignore the truth and live in a little box. Instead of accepting that America isn't popular around the world for very different reasons then you believe you call me xenophobic instead and dismiss everything.

I didn't call you xenophobic and dismiss everything, I called you xenophobic and addressed every point you raised. See, the point of the exercise was to indicate not only that your indictment of American cluelessness was unfair, but why you suffer from a much more severe case of it. Yes, we have horrible foreign policy just like Canada and most other countries engaged in foreign affairs. Yes Americans are arrogant and self-serving, just like you, your neighbors, and just about every human on the planet. Why? Because we're all humans after all. Yes, Americans have bad attitudes, but how exactly has anyone from outside the US demonstrated to you that their attitudes are any better? See, you can't answer the question Athens. You have an a priori hatred for the US and facts are not important to you. You've found it fashionable to insult an entire country of people you haven't a clue about.

Do all Canadians suffer from such a low self-esteem? Don't get all defensive of Canada and play dead here, I'm genuinely curious.

The only thing I've proved to you is that none of the issues you present as the reasons for hating America are exclusive to America. The imperialistic behaviors you cite are those of any major government with a military and its own interests. Don't be so easily duped.

That's not how people see it. That might be the truth of the matter but guess what, people around the world sees it as a US invasion. A US war. US lies. Hell every one has forgotten about the UK's role in it. 46 other countries involved, irrelevant. 13 UN resolutions against Iraq, irrelevant. That has no barring on peoples opinion.

Of course facts have no bearing on their opinion, this is what I've been trying to tell you. It's feigned outrage. Is it American arrogance to say "I don't give a flying rat's a$$ what ignorant people think?" Honestly, why should I care what people who won't acknowledge facts, think? If it were a matter of wanting to make you like us so your system would support us, that would be one thing, but the fact is y'all have been readily available whenever we call. That seems odd to me. Is it possible perhaps your leadership is just pandering to you with this alleged "hatred" while serving themselves by supporting us whenever necessary? That makes you a real crappy neighbor right? Are all Canadians this clueless?

Stop confusing personal feelings towards the US with general world opinion. Just educating you what most of the world thinks about you. Its never been about "Freedom and Money" as you have been taught to believe.

First of all, you don't have a clue what I was raised to believe. Second of all, I'm well aware of what the international community thinks of the US, but thanks for the attempt at upward-coaching.

The good news for any of the Americans of this forum who didn't know what causes this hatred is they've been "taught" by you that those outside the US hate Americans because they either don't care about facts or have forgotten them. Good show eh?

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

shhhhhhh ... Cuba is a awesome vacation destination, even more so since Canada is the only North American destination they can market to.

And for this reason I hope the US never gets into Cuba... They'll just ruin it.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Before that, you did. First page.

Ah. Yes, I did say something beyond my posts on the current page. It's been a few days.

Clueless? Yes, I guess I am, as I cannot fathom why so many people seem to hate the US. All the way until there's a disaster and they cry for help. Oh wait...they get help before they start to ask for it. From American organizations, more often than not, and with high frequency from the American Government. I now refer one and all to a Canadian journalist by the name of Gordon Sinclair.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Hopefully we can all agree on that one

The US is currently practicing the same stuff as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Iran, Syria, China, Cambodia, Egypt,

I'll just add to this

Assassination of U.S. citizens (Allowed) also known as executions of enemies of the state.

Indefinite detention (Allowed)

Arbitrary justice (Allowed)

Warrantless searches (Allowed)

Secret evidence (Allowed)

Protection from War crimes (Allowed)

Secret court (Allowed)

Immunity from judicial review (Allowed)

Continual monitoring of citizens (Allowed)

Extraordinary renditions (Allowed)

The US has become a Authoritarian state.

An authoritarian nation is defined not just by the use of authoritarian powers, but by the ability to use them. If a president can take away your freedom or your life on his own authority, all rights become little more than a discretionary grant subject to executive will.

James Madison and Benjamin Franklin say it best...

James Madison famously warned that we needed a system that did not depend on the good intentions or motivations of our rulers: “If men were angels, no government would be necessary.”

Benjamin Franklin was more direct. In 1787, a Mrs. Powel confronted Franklin after the signing of the Constitution and asked, “Well, Doctor, what have we got — a republic or a monarchy?” His response was a bit chilling: “A republic, Madam, if you can keep it.”

All this has occurred since 2001. Most of it under Bush but Obama has renewed and continued these laws. So while corporations have exceptional freedom including "Immunity from judicial review" people don't. You can be locked with no trial, no evidence no illegal searches, for ever or even executed now at the whim of a president. Some personal freedom.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Ah. Yes, I did say something beyond my posts on the current page. It's been a few days.

Clueless? Yes, I guess I am, as I cannot fathom why so many people seem to hate the US. All the way until there's a disaster and they cry for help. Oh wait...they get help before they start to ask for it. From American organizations, more often than not, and with high frequency from the American Government. I now refer one and all to a Canadian journalist by the name of Gordon Sinclair.

A lot changed since the 70's, even so that Canadian was clearly an idiot. Serious embarrassing and as a Canadian I apologies for such a horrific display of dishonesty. Fact is the wars fought where for American interests not because of "Good" The response to disaster zones, most countries respond and many quicker then the US. But like typical American views, all credit must go to Americans. And aid organizations do more harm then good because all they do is prime a country for economic take over of American corporations. Glenn you didn't help your cause here.

[Athens]

Oh and when it comes to sending Aid to the US like New Orleans for example, American RED Tape makes it impossible for a timely response. Canada had a hell of a time getting through American Red Tape to assist as one example. And Cuba was utterly ignored for the assistance it offered.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I didn't call you xenophobic and dismiss everything, I called you xenophobic and addressed every point you raised. See, the point of the exercise was to indicate not only that your indictment of American cluelessness was unfair, but why you suffer from a much more severe case of it.

I stopped reading after this and laughed. You still don't get it. I listed why people around the world hates the US, America and you still don't get it and try to make it sound like its only my opinion. As I said before I don't actually agree with all of it. But that does not change how people around the world and yes the world is much more then Canada see's the US. What ever else you had to say beyond this I suspect is the same old rhetoric from you which is blah blah blah, Canada does this, Canada does that which does not matter because what Canada does does not do, does not factor in why the World hates Americans. Canada is ignored. What ever Canada does you would be hard pressed to find any one around the world to know of it let alone hate Canada for it. I just listed many reasons why the world hates America. Accept it or don't, it does not change world opinion.

I hate how Americans have given up there freedoms. I hate American corporations for what they are doing to the world. I hate the American government for its interference here at home and every where else. And I only hate American I don't like personally that are the ignorant ones which happen to mostly be republicans. Democrats seem to know a world outside of the US exists.