[theolein]

The Washington post has an interesting article about South African ex biowarefare researchers trying to sell ex-South African bioweapons to the USA and getting told the USA wasn't interested.

I find it interesting and wonder how this pertains to other countries and WMD and just how interested the USA was in WMD in Iraq. There is no hard proof of anything and this isn't an accusation, but it is interesting.

Here's some more

[lil'babykitten]

That was a very interesting read.

It's interesting how U.S officials know such lethal weapons exist in SA yet they don't seem to care. They also know, in the case of Basson that he's had dealings with countries across the world including ones such as Libya, " a country the CIA believes is attempting to establish a biological weapons program."

Yet the US starts war with Iraq over WMD that aren't there.

"Basson also told U.S. officials he had learned the technique from Israeli government scientists, a claim that could not be independently verified. Israel has persistently denied having biological or chemical weapons programs, although many U.S. weapons experts believe such programs exist. Israel also is widely believed to have assisted South Africa with the development of its former nuclear weapons program, a claim Israeli officials also deny. Basson and at least one other member of South Africa's biological and chemical weapons team made extended trips to Israel in the 1980s, according to testimony and documents cited by authors Gould and Folb.

The two countries at the time shared a similar mind-set: Both saw groups inside their own borders that threatened the country's survival," said a U.S. government weapons analyst with first-hand knowledge of Project Coast and its aftermath, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "The enemy wasn't another nation-state but pockets of individuals within their own population."

That part was interesting too.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by theolein:
I find it interesting and wonder how this pertains to other countries and WMD and just how interested the USA was in WMD in Iraq. There is no hard proof of anything and this isn't an accusation, but it is interesting.

In my opinion the US was only really interested in Iraq for the potential profit to be made. Freeing the Iraqi people and finding WMDs would appear to have been media fluff used as a justification to that ends. I see no reason why America would wish to get involved in such an ugly and messy situation unless there was something ultimately to gain.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by theolein:
I find it interesting and wonder how this pertains to other countries and WMD and just how interested the USA was in WMD in Iraq. There is no hard proof of anything and this isn't an accusation, but it is interesting.

It has never been just the mere existence of WMD that makes them threatening. It is the combination of WMD in the hands of an irrational regime and/or the potential for those weapons to find their way into terrorist hands.

Nevertheless, I am disturbed about this. Why were these people allowed to go free? I would have hoped that the US government and South African government would arrest these people. Pathogens in the hands of private individuals obviously willing to see them to the highest bidder is a danger to us all.

[eklipse]

I wonder how this will play out.

[Troll]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Israel also is widely believed to have assisted South Africa with the development of its former nuclear weapons program, a claim Israeli officials also deny. Basson and at least one other member of South Africa's biological and chemical weapons team made extended trips to Israel in the 1980s, according to testimony and documents cited by authors Gould and Folb.

It's not just widely BELIEVED. It's a documented fact that Israel and South Africa worked on nuclear weapons together. They both helped each other though. SA was way ahead in nuclear technology. It's still the leader in many aspects (pebble bed nuclear reactors for example). Having read some of the accounts of people involved in the SA project, it seems that the Israelis were involved in assiting with delivery (missile technology) and to a lesser degree, detonation. The South Africans supplied the fissile material (it has one of the largest uranium and plutonium deposits in the world) and the enrichment technology. South Africa got access to a lot of other NATO standard gear that Israel could buy. US missiles and avionics were taken out to SA avoiding the arms embargo and there was a transfer of other technology too.

As an aside, I have been to Pelindaba, where the bombs were manufactured, stored and finally destroyed. It is in the middle of a nature reserve about 100 km from Johannesburg. You can see it from the road, but the view from the nature reserve is really scary. You summit this little rocky outcrop and suddenly in the valley below is this concrete, windowless behemoth surrounded by more concrete, windowless buildings and immaculate, manicured lawns tended by invisible workers. It truly has an eery feel to it and almost seems to glow!

I'm pretty sure the SA government would be more than happy to put these guys away if they could pin anything on them. I don't even think they've committed a crime in South Africa (theft perhaps if this stuff belongs to the government), so it's hard to see what will happen. Taking action obviously requires investigation which in this field is not going to be easy and it then requires proving some wrongdoing. Seems to me it would have been efficient to buy the stuff off these people and then have them arrested. At least go along with them until you had some useful information to hand over to the SA Police. I don't think these guys are going to supply terrorists with this stuff. A bunch of ex apartheid civil servants selling pathogens to Islamic terrorists doesn't sound plausible. I think they would have done that straight away if they wanted to. I think they're looking to make a quick buck without anyone getting hurt. Still, it should be investigated and I'm sure the SA government is watching these guys.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Troll:
It's not just widely BELIEVED. It's a documented fact that Israel and South Africa worked on nuclear weapons together. They both helped each other though. SA was way ahead in nuclear technology. It's still the leader in many aspects (pebble bed nuclear reactors for example). Having read some of the accounts of people involved in the SA project, it seems that the Israelis were involved in assiting with delivery (missile technology) and to a lesser degree, detonation. The South Africans supplied the fissile material (it has one of the largest uranium and plutonium deposits in the world) and the enrichment technology. South Africa got access to a lot of other NATO standard gear that Israel could buy. US missiles and avionics were taken out to SA avoiding the arms embargo and there was a transfer of other technology too.

Ah yes, Israel's hidden weapons of mass destruction. An interesting, if sometimes frightening, read.

[theolein]

Well, when I was at university in South Africa, a friend of our family who used to holiday in the Southern Cape near to Mossel Bay actually saw some test firings of the short-range missiles (300-400 Km range) from the nearby launch center. And South Africa was and is pretty full of very murky and/or viscious individuals. A good deal of the ex-Apartheid Army and government types are willing to do anything for money, and the world's largest private Army for hire and the only one with it's own air force, Executive Outcomes, was founded by ex South African military people. They won the war against Unita, Apartheid South Africa's ally in Angola for the Angolan government and got paid very well for their efforts. There have been South African mercenaries fighting for Croatia and Serbia in the Balkans and anybody who has read anything about Wouter Basson could easily come to the conclusion that the bastard doesn't give a damn about who he's working for, as long as the price is right.

In this environment I personally wouldn't be surprised to hear of Project Coast Bioweapons turning up in places where they could cause a lot of damage. Al-Qaida springs to mind...

[Troll]

Here's a smart move by the US. Wonder how many WMD's South Africa will need to sell to break even on this deal.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Troll:
Here's a smart move by the US. Wonder how many WMD's South Africa will need to sell to break even on this deal.

Well the military aid is basically a political tool that the US uses to make friends and influence people across the globe, so it's no loss really. There is no way on earth that the USA would ever garantee South Africans protection from prosecution, so I suppose it's only fair.

It will, however, not make Bush's visit to South Africa any more pleasant for him, as some people are likely to give him a piece of their minds about this.

[Troll]

Originally posted by theolein:
Well the military aid is basically a political tool that the US uses to make friends and influence people across the globe, so it's no loss really. There is no way on earth that the USA would ever garantee South Africans protection from prosecution, so I suppose it's only fair.

It will, however, not make Bush's visit to South Africa any more pleasant for him, as some people are likely to give him a piece of their minds about this.

Yeah, that's essentially the point I made over here.

[Buck_Naked]

Proof of WMD.
We just have not found them yet.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Troll:
Yeah, that's essentially the point I made over here.

I understand Mbeki being cautious wrt the USA as he knows that stability is very important to SA growth, and so he won't be rocking many boats. But I truly hope he doesn't give in too much to American pressure, because it seems to me that there are often a lot of invisible strings along with the visible ones accompanying any American aid, and that could damage SA's independence. This isn't to say that other aid is without strings, but SA is strategically important being what it is (a relatively wealthy, stable African democracy) and where it is (on the southern tip of Africa) and I can well imagine one or two people in the Pentagon and Washington relishing the thought of US military bases in the Cape.