[theolein]

Most news sites, including the BBC are carrying the story today about the US extending the programme to fingerprint and photograph foreigners entering the US to those countries that used to be so called Visa Waiver countries, i.e. assumedly friendly countries, including the UK and the rest of the EU, Norway, Iceland (Logic and Voodoo better shave and get a hair cut), Switzerland (I wasn't planning on visiting anyway but now it's definite), Japan etc.

In fact, the only country that now does not require a visa to enter the US is Canada.

While I understand the fear that supposed terrorists might somehow obtain a passport in one of those countries and enter the US in order to create mayhem and havoc, I see this as mainly having a direct and damaging effect on the US tourism industry and probably influencing business travellers as well. There is quite a lot of virtual shouting over on the slashdot discussion going on, with a number of people saying that this is having an influence on technical conferences and foreign students with the former being moved to other countries and the latter choosing to study in Canada in increased numbers.

I think it's not a really wise idea. The 9/11 crowd all entered the US legally even if some overstayed their visas and the claim that terrorists can simply and easily obtain a passport in the EU, Norway, Iceland, Japan or Switzerland is not true. It is not that easy to obtain passports in those countries and certainly isn't a case of just visiting McPassport and ordering Passport Royale with double cheesy pics.

I suppose this will warm the hearts of the more xenophobic crowd in the US and especially those south of the Mason Dixon line such as Alan, who see anyone to the north of that imaginary boundary as essentially foreign.

[Developer]

What's the problem with them taking fingerprints?

Aren't we all getting biometric identity cards anyway?

[Spliffdaddy]

The Mason-Dixon line isn't imaginary.

I re-paint it every few years when it starts to fade.

PS, the ability to visit the US is well worth the hassle of being fingerprinted.

[christ]

I have read quite a lot about this, and I am not sure that I understand the problem.

I don't care for the US's current and recent foreign policy, but if they wish people to be fingerprinted, then why not? The option to not go to the US is there to be taken.

What I don't quite understand is why they want to take the fingerprints anyway. What are they going to do with them?

Would it have stopped 9/11? I can't see how. Would it stop a future 9/11? Again, I'm not sure how. Does it play well to the masses in Podunk ar Peoria? Probably. So, it seems to be a pointless, but voter-pleasing manoeuvre, so let them get on with it and stop moaning.

I hope that the US doesn't complain if it loses visitors and/or tourists, and I also hope that it doesn't complain if others start imposing obstacles to Americans (and/or their goods) getting into other countries, but that is extremely unlikely, as usually the US wishes to have it both ways. So, nothing new.

[Ayelbourne]

My wife and I discussed this over dinner last night. I have relatives who are U.S. citizens, and we were contemplating the possibility of travelling to see them this year. However, we are both very troubled by this new development. I wouldn't travel to any country that wants to fingerprint and photograph me and my wife upon entry, presumably starting a government file on us. Just on principle.

When Sweden starts issuing biometric passports (the idea has met with some resistance), I'll use that. If that's still not good enough, I just won't ever go. Tough on the family, but that's what I believe in. At any rate, they can come and visit me without S�po opening a file on them.

Once again, I say: America's enemy hit it so hard, America forgot who it's friends are.

[dcolton]

What's up with all of these foreigners trying to tell us how to run our government? Do you think your government is better? Do you think you have a say in our public policy? Do you think your opinion counts for much?

Oh, I get it, you are trying to find a way to criticize the states. What's next, a circle jerk?

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by dcolton:
What's up with all of these foreigners trying to tell us how to run our government? Do you think your government is better? Do you think you have a say in our public policy? Do you think your opinion counts for much?

Oh, I get it, you are trying to find a way to criticize the states. What's next, a circle jerk?

What's next is that they are going to fingerprint everyone in the U.S.

Once they find out that fingerprints of foreigners does not work, they'll have the perfect excuse to do the same with the population.

Then watch out for the computer errors....

Then watch out for the computer "errors"...

[daimoni]

.

[eklipse]

Another victory for the terrorists.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
The Mason-Dixon line isn't imaginary.

I re-paint it every few years when it starts to fade.

PS, the ability to visit the US is well worth the hassle of being fingerprinted.

What does this have to do with any North/South differences?

What is it that you think makes the US so great to visit? Personally, I find the majority of the US to be incredibly dull. And the interesting parts aren't anything special compared to other places in the world. Every country has it's pluses and minuses, the US really isn't anything special as far as I can see.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
What's next is that they are going to fingerprint everyone in the U.S.

Once they find out that fingerprints of foreigners does not work, they'll have the perfect excuse to do the same with the population.

Then watch out for the computer errors....

Then watch out for the computer "errors"...

"Tuttle, not Buttle."

[Ayelbourne]

I must be bored, or it's the cold medicine, but here goes...

Originally posted by dcolton:
What's up with all of these foreigners trying to tell us how to run our government?

Umm... I'm not. Just saying if I have to have a government file opened on me to visit my family, I guess I won't be visiting my family. It's my loss.

Do you think your government is better?

I prefer my government over yours. There's a difference.

Do you think you have a say in our public policy?

I'm quite sure I don't. I'm not so sure who does.

Do you think your opinion counts for much?

Probably about as much as your opinion on the recent Spanish elections, for whatever that's worth. In answer to your question, don't worry - America has made it abundantly clear that it does not care to hear dissenting points of view from it's neighbors. We get the message.

Oh, I get it, you are trying to find a way to criticize the states.

I'm not criticising the policy. I am just giving notice that if you roll out the metaphorical barbed-wire, I for one am not going to try to cross it. Have fun in your fortress.

What's next, a circle jerk?

Thanks, but no thanks. You're on your own for that one.

[theolein]

Originally posted by dcolton:
What's up with all of these foreigners trying to tell us how to run our government? Do you think your government is better? Do you think you have a say in our public policy? Do you think your opinion counts for much?

Oh, I get it, you are trying to find a way to criticize the states. What's next, a circle jerk?

No, I wasn't actually trying very hard to criticise the US. I just think that it will not bode very well for tourism. I wasn't planning on coming anyway, but now it's definite. I will NOT be treated like a criminal if I can avoid it. If I can't, tough luck for me, but as long as I can avoid having foreign governments having files on me, I will.

[Logic]

Well, I was thinking about going to visit part of my family who lives in NY. I guess, I'll just meet them next time they come to Iceland. Am afraid too many red flags would come up on my name, and with the rights like they are in the US right now I'd rather not take the chance. Let's take a a look at the list.

Muslim

Former Special Forces

"Anti-American"(demonstrated against the war and the US embassy had their people on site taking pics)

family members who were forbidden access to the US because they were in our "communist party"

the list goes on.

And I don't like governments putting up files on me(more than there are), and I won't take the chance(however remote it is) of being arrested and not be able to contact anyone.

No thanks, I don't like being treated like a criminal so there the US will lose my spending in the US.

[Zimphire]

Ok, so how is taking photos and fingerprinting people coming into OUR country bad?

IF you have nothing to hide, there should be no problem. This will also help us track people coming and going.

We NEED to beef up security in that area.

I would have NO problem being Photographed and fingerprinted going into another country.

[swrate]

FINGERPRINT FILE
(M. Jagger/K. Richards)

Fingerprint file, you get me down
You keep me running
Know my way around. Yes, you do, child
Fingerprint file, you bring me down
Keep me running
You keep me on the ground
Know my moves
Way ahead of time
Listening to me
On your satellite

Feeling followed
Feeling tagged
Crossing water
Trying to wipe my tracks

And there's some little jerk in the FBI
A keepin' papers on me six feet high
It gets me down, it gets me down, it gets me down

You better watch out
On your telephone
Wrong number
They know you ain't home

And there's some little jerk in the FBI
A keepin' papers on me six feet high
It gets me down, it gets me down, it gets me down

Who's the man on the corner; that corner over there
I don't know. Well, you better lay low. Watch out

Keep on the look out
Electric eyes
Rats on the sell out
Who gonna testify
You know my habits
Way a head of time
Listening to me
On your satellite

And there's some little jerk in the FBI
A keepin' papers on me six feet high
It gets me down, it gets me down, it gets me down
It gets me down

Hello, baby, mm-hmm
Ah, yeah, you know we ain't, we ain't talkin' alone
Who's listening? Well I don't really know
But you better tell the SIS to keep out of sight
'Cause I know they takin' pictures on the ultraviolet light
Yes, uh huh, yeah, but these days it's all secrecy; no privacy
Shoot first, that' s right... you know
Bye bye.
Right now somebody is listening to...... you
Keeping their eyes peeled...... on you
Mmm, mmm, what a price, what a price to pay
All right. Good night, sleep tight

from Keno's site ,

USA, I even fear my family going there.
Sorry, it's emotional, I am worried.
I think its paranoia----would it stop or prevent terrorism?
I doubt it. Reminds me of MacCarthy, sad episode.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ok, so how is taking photos and fingerprinting people coming into OUR country bad?

IF you have nothing to hide, there should be no problem. This will also help us track people coming and going.

We NEED to beef up security in that area.

I would have NO problem being Photographed and fingerprinted going into another country.

Well, for one it's bad because it will stop people from wanting to come to the US as is amply demonstrated in this thread. That hurts tourism which hurts the economy. So there's one way that it's bad.

There are others, but it's dinner time.

[Ayelbourne]

"My uncle was born in America."

"Oh, really?"

"But he was one of the lucky ones. He managed to escape in a balloon during the Jimmy Carter presidency..."

- Top Secret!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Well, for one it's bad because it will stop people from wanting to come to the US as is amply demonstrated in this thread. That hurts tourism which hurts the economy. So there's one way that it's bad.

It wont hurt tourism.

People that have nothing to hide, nor have a political agenda will care either way.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ok, so how is taking photos and fingerprinting people coming into OUR country bad?

IF you have nothing to hide, there should be no problem. This will also help us track people coming and going.

We NEED to beef up security in that area.

I would have NO problem being Photographed and fingerprinted going into another country.

Well, vote for that president, and live with that.

But the rest of your life will not be about enjoying safety. There will always be a reason to be afraid, and that fear will just not get away. And the reason is simple: so far the foreign policy of the U.S. (and to a lesser degree, the other industrialized countries) is doing exactly the opposite of what it aims for.

As long as corporate interests of industrialized countries will continue to abuse and oppress for their own benefit (with sparse dusting of said benefits for their populations), insecurity will reign abroad and just like any system, the process to reach equilibrium in the distribution of violence will affect more and more countries as the very rich will become richer but fewer, and their control ever increasing over a majority of people.

It's a vicious circle and we are stuck in the middle because of our own doing.

This is no different than the Middle Ages, where Lords accumulated wealth from the work of the masses enslaved, threatened with witches and dragons and unnamed Evils to justify the building of higher walls for Castles that will crumble in pieces anyway. Then any pretext is good to go to war, but only as long as the winnings are easy and the masses are diverted to a false sense of self-glorification and self righteousness; meanwhile no one will pay attention to the problems at home, where it may have started in the first place...

Our own greed.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
But the rest of your life will not be about enjoying safety. There will always be a reason to be afraid, and that fear will just not get away.

Tell me when the fear part is supposed to start. I go throughout my day like I have always.

And the reason is simple: so far the foreign policy of the U.S. (and to a lesser degree, the other industrialized countries) is doing exactly the opposite of what it aims for.

No, the reason is simple. Hate based on ignorance. People thinking they are doing good by murdering themselves while taking out others.

As long as corporate interests of industrialized countries will continue to abuse and oppress for their own benefit (with sparse dusting of said benefits for their populations),

Yes, because that is why it's going on. I find it hard to take you seriously.

insecurity will reign abroad and just like any system, the process to reach equilibrium in the distribution of violence will affect more and more countries as the very rich will become richer but fewer, and their control ever increasing over a majority of people.

And we will all get our tin foil hats out.

It's a vicious circle and we are stuck in the middle because of our own doing.

Yeah, because we don't appease terrorists. We stand up to them. HOW DARE WE!!

This is no different than the Middle Ages, where Lords accumulated wealth from the work of the masses enslaved, threatened with witches and dragons and unnamed Evils to justify the building of higher walls for Castles that will crumble in pieces anyway. Then any pretext is good to go to war, but only as long as the winnings are easy and the masses are diverted to a false sense of self-glorification and self righteousness; meanwhile no one will pay attention to the problems at home, where it may have started in the first place...

Our own greed.

Well you see things differently than I. I am in the middle of it. I live it here.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Well you see things differently than I. I am in the middle of it. I live it here.

No. We're all in it.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
No. We're all in it.

No, you are "Over there"

[theolein]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
It wont hurt tourism.

People that have nothing to hide, nor have a political agenda will care either way.

Having actually read the slashdot discussion on this (a good mix of US/Rest OF World types) and having noticed that there were quite a few serious business people talking about moving their conferences etc to another country because it's not worth the hassle of fighting with US customs every time some conference members are denied entry - this apparently is happening often enough- I think the damage to the US economy in terms of tourism and business will not be negligable.

But what the hell, I suppose our governments will end up doing the same stuff to us sooner or later.

[Zimphire]

Yes, I am sure it's not anyone pulling a Baldwin.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
It wont hurt tourism.

People that have nothing to hide, nor have a political agenda will care either way.

I have nothing to hide nor any political agenda, yet I care. And it doesn't even affect me (yet) as I'm a US citizen. A number of people have said that because of this they won't be coming to the US when they were going to otherwise. That right there means that it has already hurt tourism, maybe not significantly, but give it time.

And things are only going to get worse when people realize that this "new" scheme isn't working and demand the government do something. Freedom is not something that can be restrictively applied only to some people and not to others.

[Zimphire]

Ok, why did you just quote me twice and give two different answers?
Bizarre

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ok, why did you just quote me twice and give two different answers?
Bizarre

[Spliffdaddy]

So all of you dolts "standing on principle" were perfectly happy to agree to give consent to a cavity search on demand - but now you're scared of fingerprints and photographs?

You're all full of it.

A cavity search? um, ok.

A cavity search and fingerprints? NO WAY, MAN, THAT'S TOO INVASIVE!!

get a grip. else I'll give you one for free.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
So all of you dolts "standing on principle" were perfectly happy to agree to give consent to a cavity search on demand - but now you're scared of fingerprints and photographs?

You're all full of it.

A cavity search? um, ok.

A cavity search and fingerprints? NO WAY, MAN, THAT'S TOO INVASIVE!!

get a grip. else I'll give you one for free.

I *think* dai was kidding.

And I know *numerous* people who will NOT be visiting the US in the forseeable future.

None of them have ever had body cavity searches.

-s*

[Logic]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ok, why did you just quote me twice and give two different answers?
Bizarre

Ya, I know. It's quite bizarre that you don't even try to see who responds to you.

One hint.

Theolein and nonhuman are not the same person.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
So all of you dolts "standing on principle" were perfectly happy to agree to give consent to a cavity search on demand - but now you're scared of fingerprints and photographs?

You're all full of it.

A cavity search? um, ok.

A cavity search and fingerprints? NO WAY, MAN, THAT'S TOO INVASIVE!!

get a grip. else I'll give you one for free.

What the hell are you blathering about?

[Logic]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
What the hell are you blathering about?

It's saturday night.

: puff puff:

: passes the blunt:

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
So all of you dolts "standing on principle" were perfectly happy to agree to give consent to a cavity search on demand - but now you're scared of fingerprints and photographs?

You're all full of it.

A cavity search? um, ok.

A cavity search and fingerprints? NO WAY, MAN, THAT'S TOO INVASIVE!!

get a grip. else I'll give you one for free.

Angry again, Alan? Why is it that one person mutates into many in your mind, and what part of "I don't particularly want foreign governments to hold files on me" don't you understand?

And were you attempting to threaten us there in your last sentence? Kind of lame over the internet, isn't it?

[Zimphire]

He didn't sound angry.

More disgusted with all the two sided hypocrisies. And rightfully so.

Why people feel the need to project emotions onto others that aren't there is beyond me.

Maybe trying to paint them out to be something they are not.

[voyageur]

Do those of you from the US who are in favor of fingerprinting, etc. travel to other countries? You might be interested to know that other countries are retaliating against the US's measures by significantly boosting visa fees for visitors from the US.

[angaq0k]

According to this: http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgar...1-ba1473969579

Canada has been excluded from the list.

"There is a distinction (with Canada)," Hutchinson said. "Obviously we've had a traditional relationship, a very open border with Canada."

Amazing that not too long ago, Canada was blamed for its bad control of its borders.

[quandarry]

the u.s. has a right to do what it wants to within it's border and people of other nations and for that matter other nations have no right to bitch about it.

[quandarry]

oh...i forgot that goes for the u.s. too...minding it's own affairs and not those of other nations. it's a two way street.

[daimoni]

.

[Spliffdaddy]

Fingerprints = instant database query

DNA = 2 weeks lead time & big money

DNA is more credible?

hahahaha

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Why people feel the need to project emotions onto others that aren't there is beyond me.

Maybe trying to paint them out to be something they are not.

Yeah, I never did get how you see every single person who is critical or scared or misguided or deperate as "filled with hate".

I guess you just project that because you have no ****ing clue as to how people could think or feel differently from yourself?

-s*

[voodoo]

DNA samples are very good to identify people, but acquiring good samples and processing them is not practical in this case I fear. Fingerprints and photographs are very analogue and lame but for appearances they sure sound good. Fast, practical and every customs dolt can do it. This gives the *appearance* of security against terrorists. I am of course assuming this is something the USAsian govt. is doing to make life more miserable for potential terrorists entering the US. Unfortunately terrorists are criminals and while it may or may not help catch one or two it won't stop any terrorists really. Any EU citizen can travel to France without a passport, then you can travel to Canada from France without a passport and finally you can travel to USA from Canada without being fingerprinted. That is even a legal way to do it. Criminals look into these kind of loopholes if they think it important. Even if they are photographed and fingerprinted at arrival in the USA, does that stop them from committing suicide by blowing themselves to smithereens at the next shopping mall?? What exactly is this going to accomplish? Exactly.

[theolein]

Originally posted by voodoo:
DNA samples are very good to identify people, but acquiring good samples and processing them is not practical in this case I fear. Fingerprints and photographs are very analogue and lame but for appearances they sure sound good. Fast, practical and every customs dolt can do it. This gives the *appearance* of security against terrorists. I am of course assuming this is something the USAsian govt. is doing to make life more miserable for potential terrorists entering the US. Unfortunately terrorists are criminals and while it may or may not help catch one or two it won't stop any terrorists really. Any EU citizen can travel to France without a passport, then you can travel to Canada from France without a passport and finally you can travel to USA from Canada without being fingerprinted. That is even a legal way to do it. Criminals look into these kind of loopholes if they think it important. Even if they are photographed and fingerprinted at arrival in the USA, does that stop them from committing suicide by blowing themselves to smithereens at the next shopping mall?? What exactly is this going to accomplish? Exactly.

Uhm, you can't travel from Canada to the US without a passport. They are pretty thorough at the US/Canadian border (did that in 2001 a month after 9/11). When checking the passports, they'll also check Visa's etc (fingerprinting, Photos etc) for non-Canadians.

You could of course cross the border there somewhere in the bush, as it's just a set of markers in most places, but then that's always been true and it requires you to do it by foot, so lugging large amounts of explosives would be difficult.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by theolein:
Uhm, you can't travel from Canada to the US without a passport.

never said you could

[theolein]

Originally posted by voodoo:
never said you could

You're right, I misread your sentence. I should point out that since one has to show one's passport on the US/Canada border, one will probably still be in for a finderpainting and photoshooting session if one's passport has no maple leaf in or on it.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by theolein:
You're right, I misread your sentence. I should point out that since one has to show one's passport on the US/Canada border, one will probably still be in for a finderpainting and photoshooting session if one's passport has no maple leaf in or on it.

Good. I still don't see the problem. This is just another way for you super sophisticated, ultra liberal Europeans to bash the US. Many of you are saying, you won't be coming to the states because of this new policy...GOOD. What makes you think we want a bunch of people in our country who have nothing better to do than bash our country on a daily basis? Stay at home, you'll be much happier. Go visit Palestine, Iraq, Iran or another one of those ultra-hospitable countries that love westerners and are a catalyst for peace. Take a trip to Israel. Take the train in Spain or France. Wherever you go, don't come here.

[Logic]

Originally posted by dcolton:
What makes you think we want a bunch of people in our country who have nothing better to do than bash our country on a daily basis?

To show us that we are wrong perhaps and to get the money tourists spend?

Stay at home, you'll be much happier. Go visit Palestine, Iraq, Iran or another one of those ultra-hospitable countries that love westerners and are a catalyst for peace. Take a trip to Israel. Take the train in Spain or France. Wherever you go, don't come here.

I will as soon as I can.

[christ]

Originally posted by dcolton:
... What makes you think we want a bunch of people in our country who have nothing better to do than bash our country on a daily basis?

Nothing.

What makes us think that you want anyone that will apply any critical thought process to what your glorious leader and his cabal are doing, be they American or not?

Nothing.

The inability, or unwillingness, to allow free thinking is the first step to totalitarianism, which appears to be your preferred state.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by theolein:
You're right, I misread your sentence. I should point out that since one has to show one's passport on the US/Canada border, one will probably still be in for a finderpainting and photoshooting session if one's passport has no maple leaf in or on it.

if you're a canadian citizen you don't need a passport to enter the u.s...if you're a foreigner visiting canada and on impulse decide to visit the u.s....good luck, you'll be turned away.

all that is required is a birth certificate or (because of the large immigrant base) a canadian citizenship card. however the canadian government suggests bringing a passport too...it makes the overworked border people less anxious. it's not required by either country but makes it a safer bet for less hassle.


ps...and if you do come i suggest the 'rust belt'. mainly pennsylvainia, ohio and michigan. detroit is amazing...it's the only place where you will find large skyscrapers abandoned like so many detroit houses...empty and rotting away. it really is something to behold.