[james9490]

iPod nano has been a huge topic of the week among Mac users. Well, I have a ground breaking news for you, and it might dissapoint you but I must inform people: ZEN Micro is better, and it's been available for some time now.

Let's compare these two gadgets feature by feature:

ZEN Micro's memory space:
6GB holds 3000 songs at 64kbps WMA or 1500 songs at 128kbps MP3
5GB holds 2500 songs at 64kbps WMA or 1250 songs at 128kbps MP3
4GB holds 2000 songs at 64kbps WMA or 1000 songs at 128kbps MP3

Here is an excellent example of why WMA beats AAC big time. It is more efficient: 64kbps WMA equals 128kbps MP3, which equals to 192kbps AAC. Apple has made a huge error choosing AAC as their primary music file format. Now, take a look at iPod nano:

2GB (500 songs) or 4GB (1,000 songs)

That's much less than ZEN Micro player, but look at what they are charging for it:

iPod nano = $249 for 4GB
ZEN Micro = $229.99 for 6GB

ZEN Micro player beats iPod nano big time here as well.

How about other features? Well, iPod isn't doing so well here:

ZEN = 10 electrifying colors
iPod = Stuck with only 2 colors

ZEN = Up to 12 hours of playback time on a single charge
iPod = Up to 14 hours of music playback; up to 4 hours of slideshows with music (iPod wins here but 2 hours out of 14 hours isn't a huge win, and it goes down to a measly 4 hours when it's used for photos.)

ZEN = Removable, rechargeable battery
iPod = Non-removable battery
---> There will be many angry iPod owners complaining about dead batteries, being forced to buy a new unit when battery no longer charges up, and so on.

ZEN = FM radio to listen to and record
iPod = No such option
---> And charging more??

ZEN = Built-in voice recorder
iPod = No such option unless third-parties come up with an adapter for it
---> Yet another way for Apple to milk and abuse customers.

ZEN = Removable Disk
iPod = Stuck with built-in memory
---> Just like PC and Mac: Mac is closed and proprietary.

ZEN = Built-in calendar syncing with Outlook
iPod = No syncing with Outlook
---> Yet another blow for Apple since Outlook is the de-facto standard for scheduling and email, and people with any type of serious job to do would want to be able to do this.

ZEN = Access over 2 million songs through MSN Music and other Zen supported music services
iPod = Stuck in the iTunes Store, having to buy each individual songs
---> Again, users are locked in with Apple's milking scheme.

ZEN = Wake to your favorite tunes
iPod = No such feature
---> Which is cooler?

ZEN = Customize your UI
iPod = Stuck with Apple's UI
---> Following the Mighty Mouse tradition of bad user interface. User interface should conform to the way user works, not the other way around.

ZEN = Highest audio quality of any MP3 player
iPod = Debatable quality, many reports on pops and skips during playback
---> Creative is a premiere company for PC sound system. Apple isn't. Who wins?

So, the difference in value/price ratio is appalling. I don't see why anyone would even consider buying iPod nano while there is ZEN Micro. The only thing going for iPod nano is its slim size, but that's pretty much the only good thing going for it, and since ZEN isn't all that much bigger, it's not a huge advantage.

Consumers should know these facts before making any mistakes suckered into buying one of these iPods.

[RAILhead]

[Maflynn]

So buy the zen micro and stop bothering us - to each his own.

[Warung]

nuff said...

[von Wrangell]

This doesn't happen often but...

I agree with Railhead.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by james9490

Here is an excellent example of why WMA beats AAC big time. It is more efficient: 64kbps WMA equals 128kbps MP3, which equals to 192kbps AAC.

[DeathToWindows]

****wit. go away

[james9490]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Here goes RAILhead again, offending anyone who don't believe in the Mac religion. What an arrogant bigot he really is.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by james9490

iZEN Micro is better, and it's been available for some time now.

Here is an excellent example of why WMA beats AAC big time. It is more efficient: 64kbps WMA equals 128kbps MP3, which equals to 192kbps AAC. Apple has made a huge error choosing AAC as their primary music file format. Now, take a look at iPod nano:

ZEN = 10 electrifying colors
iPod = Stuck with only 2 colors

ZEN = FM radio to listen to and record
iPod = No such option

ZEN = Built-in voice recorder
iPod = No such option unless third-parties come up with an adapter for it

ZEN = Removable Disk
iPod = Stuck with built-in memory

ZEN = Built-in calendar syncing with Outlook
iPod = No syncing with Outlook
---> Yet another blow for Apple since Outlook is the de-facto standard for scheduling and email, and people with any type of serious job to do would want to be able to do this.

ZEN = Access over 2 million songs through MSN Music and other Zen supported music services
iPod = Stuck in the iTunes Store, having to buy each individual songs

I would go on, but you get the picture.

Did you copy this straight from MS's web site?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by james9490

Here I again, offending anyone who don't believe in the Microsoft religion. What an arrogant bigot I really am.

Fixed.

[Eriamjh]

This is a Mac forum. What more be said?

[Doofy]

RAILhead, we need hot chicks in here. Stat.

[Ω]

[analogika]

No, really, I mean it:

[Kevin]

He forgot also

ZEN = Ultra COOL black and white screen!
iPod = Lame ass Full color screen. Album covers, pictures, etc.

[analogika]

The iPod nano is also one-third the size of the Zen Micro.



No, really, I mean it:

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by james9490

iPod nano has been a huge topic of the week among Mac users. Well, I have a ground breaking news for you, and it might dissapoint you but I must inform people: ZEN Micro is better, and it's been available for some time now.

You can argue all you want about the Zen being better on a spec sheet, but the iPod is better in your hand and the market seems to agree. Companies seem to forget about the user experience frequently and they find themselves with lower sales.

[nbnz]

Originally Posted by james9490

ZEN = Built-in calendar syncing with Outlook
iPod = No syncing with Outlook
---> Yet another blow for Apple since Outlook is the de-facto standard for scheduling and email, and people with any type of serious job to do would want to be able to do this.

bzzzz, wrong.

http://www.apple.com/ipodnano/autosync.html

Sync Contacts and Calendars

Sync your iPod nano to a Mac or PC, and your contacts and calendars come along for the ride. iTunes now supports Outlook and Outlook Express for the PC, as well as Address Book and iCal on the Mac.

[PB2K]

the Micro is no Icon, it's just a MP3 player

[Randman]

Let's see, almost 90 posts in only threads:

1) anti-iPod Nano.

2) Anti-Mighty Mouse.

3) Anti-US.

4) Anti-open source.

5)

[Athens]

**** I HATE WINDOWS IE Another long thought out post GONE arghghgljkfd;ljk

[scaught]

i love it when a troll can bring us all together. awe. <3

[james9490]

Originally Posted by nbnz

bzzzz, wrong.

http://www.apple.com/ipodnano/autosync.html

Okay, I guess iPod syncs with Outlook, but the Mac don't have Outlook. Besides, iCal is just a small calendar program for novices and hobbyists, and Outlook is for serious work. How can you use iCal for any serious work anyway?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Warung

nuff said...

God what an ugly piece of crap. People are actually buying that... thing?

[crazyjohnson]

Despite which player is "better" the iPod will outsell the ZEN no matter what the price. Apple is making a mint here.

[james9490]

People, you need to remember that there is an undeniable advantage with ZEN even if you can manage to ignore many of the other advantages it has: FM radio and voice recording. They are built right into the main unit while iPod doesn't even have those options available. Most consumers expect that a small music player like this one would have FM raido and any related features and not some photo viewing application. Value/price ratio is still better with ZEN.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

God what an ugly piece of crap. People are actually buying that... thing?

I am very sure many young girls would be choosing this pink one over mean looking black iPod. Besides, didn't you notice that they offer 10 different colors for ZEN?

[james9490]

Originally Posted by crazyjohnson

Despite which player is "better" the iPod will outsell the ZEN no matter what the price. Apple is making a mint here.

That only proves that many consumers are not educated, they are just doing inpulse-buying, and many of them will regret their decision to go with iPod because ZEN is still a clear winner in value/price ratio.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by james9490

People, you need to remember that there is an undeniable advantage with ZEN even if you can manage to ignore many of the other advantages it has: FM radio and voice recording. They are built right into the main unit while iPod doesn't even have those options available. Most consumers expect that a small music player like this one would have FM raido and any related features and not some photo viewing application. Value/price ratio is still better with ZEN.

I got an iPod so that I didn't have to listen to FM. I mostly use it in my care because the radio sucks. If all FM channels left my area, I wouldn't miss them. They used to be decent around 10 years ago, but they suck now thanks to ClearChannel, etc. There is a decent station in Atlanta (99X) that I listen to over the Internet, but that's about it.

But, if consumers really wanted FM, why do they keep buying iPods? Really, no one wants FM. You have no control over the music and there are DJs and commercials. It sucks.

[Ω]

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by james9490

Here goes RAILhead again, offending anyone who don't believe in the Mac religion. What an arrogant bigot he really is.

No, I only be offend peoples that don't got no good grammar.

That be all.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by james9490

That only proves that many consumers are not educated, they are just doing inpulse-buying, and many of them will regret their decision to go with iPod because ZEN is still a clear winner in value/price ratio.

It proves that user experience is more important than feature list and spec sheet.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by james9490

I am very sure many young girls would be choosing this pink one over mean looking black iPod. Besides, didn't you notice that they offer 10 different colors for ZEN?

it's not really the color, it's the style and bulk of it, the Zen is just a damned ugly peice of equipment.

[nbnz]

Originally Posted by james9490

I am very sure many young girls would be choosing this pink one over mean looking black iPod. Besides, didn't you notice that they offer 10 different colors for ZEN?

I guess those many young girls might like these then.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by james9490

People, you need to remember that there is an undeniable advantage with ZEN even if you can manage to ignore many of the other advantages it has: FM radio and voice recording. They are built right into the main unit while iPod doesn't even have those options available. Most consumers expect that a small music player like this one would have FM raido and any related features and not some photo viewing application. Value/price ratio is still better with ZEN.

Why would you want a radio in your mp3 player? The whole reason for taking your mp3 player is to avoid listening to the radio.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

No, I only be offend peoples that don't got no good grammar.

That be all.

Speaking of grammar, your sitte suckks becuase you use FRAME!!

And you call yourself an expert, eh?

[Millennium]

James, we now have proof positive that you are either an idiot or a troll.

Originally Posted by james9490

Here is an excellent example of why WMA beats AAC big time. It is more efficient: 64kbps WMA equals 128kbps MP3, which equals to 192kbps AAC.

128kbps MP3 does not equal 192kbps AAC. Even the most ardent AAC-haters admit this. In fact, AAC has consistently beaten WMA in sound quality at equal bitrates in every single study ever conducted. I challenge you to find even one counterexample. I don't think you can.

2GB (500 songs) or 4GB (1,000 songs)

That's much less than ZEN Micro player, but look at what they are charging for it:

The number of songs which can be played in a specific amount of hard drive space depends solely on the bitrate of the songs encoded thereon. Decrease the bitrate and you decrease the filesize, thus increasing the number of songs you can store. Increase the bitrate and you increase the filesize, thus decreasing the number of songs you can store. That much is simple mathematics, beyond any possibility of debate.

The real difference between any two audio file formats is how good they will sound at a given bitrate. WMA and AAC are considered "better" than MP3 because if you have three files, one in each format but all at the same bitrate, both the WMA and the AAC will sound better than the MP3. That much is a fact. As I have already stated, every single study ever conducted also shows that AAC sounds better than WMA at the same bitrate. The differences are usually pretty small, but they are noticeable to trained ears. To untrained ears, it's usually pretty hard to tell the difference.

So how does the Micro fit more songs? Simply: they lower the bitrate, thus sacrificing quality for file size. You can raise the bitrate, of course, thus raising the quality, but this will decrease the number of songs you can fit on it. Similarly, you can lower the bitrate of songs you rip and put onto a Nano, thus giving it the same "song capacity" as the Zen Micro, but your sound quality will suffer, to the point where it won't be much different from what it is on the Micro.

In other words, "song count" is an invalid benchmark, because it is too easy to manipulate the numbers. This is what Creative has done, and they even admit this if you know how to read their fine print.

iPod nano = $249 for 4GB
ZEN Micro = $229.99 for 6GB

ZEN Micro player beats iPod nano big time here as well.

Here, admittedly, you have a point. Apple has never been one to price their products competitively. Then again, if I recall correctly, the Zen Micro uses hard drive storage, while the iPod Nano uses flash. Each of these media has its own set of advantages and disadvantages. The main advantages to hard drives, for example, are price and capacity. If these are what matter to you, then by all means hard drives win. The main advantages of flash are size (physical, not logical) and reliability when you're moving around. If these are what matter, then flash is better for you.

How about other features? Well, iPod isn't doing so well here:

ZEN = 10 electrifying colors
iPod = Stuck with only 2 colors

Big deal. I never liked the Mini's colors anyway. As for calling the Zen's colors "electrifying", I certainly can't argue with that. If I want to get an MP3 player in eye-bleeding pink, certainly I might consider the Zen. However, not everyone wants those colors, and for those who do it's not a difficult task to find ways of customizing an iPod. Ever since the first iPod was released, there has been a healthy industry of iPod decals for those who want a little more customization; for some $10 you can get more designs than any player manufacturer could possibly hope to offer by default.

ZEN = Up to 12 hours of playback time on a single charge
iPod = Up to 14 hours of music playback; up to 4 hours of slideshows with music (iPod wins here but 2 hours out of 14 hours isn't a huge win, and it goes down to a measly 4 hours when it's used for photos.)

Can the Zen be used for photos at all? If not, then it's not valid to compare those times. As for "2 hours out of 14 hours not being a huge win", it is when you know about what goes into improving battery life.

ZEN = Removable, rechargeable battery
iPod = Non-removable battery
---> There will be many angry iPod owners complaining about dead batteries, being forced to buy a new unit when battery no longer charges up, and so on.

Battery-replacement services have existed for a long time. This was an issue back in the iPod's early history, but it has been resolved.

ZEN = FM radio to listen to and record
iPod = No such option
---> And charging more??

For most people, this is irrelevant; they have other means of listening to the radio or recording. For those who want these features, accessories exist to provide them.

ZEN = Built-in voice recorder
iPod = No such option unless third-parties come up with an adapter for it
---> Yet another way for Apple to milk and abuse customers.

Didn't you just cover this in the your previous thing? It's not honest to list one point as two. As for third parties, must Apple make everything? "Widgets-that-do-everything" are just plain bloat. Frankly, I wasn't happy about the decision to add photo capability to the iPod either.

ZEN = Removable Disk
iPod = Stuck with built-in memory
---> Just like PC and Mac: Mac is closed and proprietary.

The Mac is neither closed nor proprietary; it follows long-established and well-documented standards for almost all of its parts. How many people do you think will ever upgrade their Zen? I'd be shocked if the number even reached one percent of the customer base. This "feature" is meaningless; by the time people want more storage, they'll want new players anyway.

ZEN = Built-in calendar syncing with Outlook
iPod = No syncing with Outlook
---> Yet another blow for Apple since Outlook is the de-facto standard for scheduling and email, and people with any type of serious job to do would want to be able to do this.

Resolved with iTunes 5, if I am not mistaken. Outlook sucks anyway.

ZEN = Access over 2 million songs through MSN Music and other Zen supported music services
iPod = Stuck in the iTunes Store, having to buy each individual songs
---> Again, users are locked in with Apple's milking scheme.

What, because users are proven to prefer owning what they pay for, rather than renting? iTunes owns more songs, lets you do more with them, and doesn't make you pay rent for your music collection. It's a better store with a better business model.

ZEN = Wake to your favorite tunes
iPod = No such feature
---> Which is cooler?

Useless to anyone with a clock radio, which you can get much cheaper than any MP3 player out there.

ZEN = Customize your UI
iPod = Stuck with Apple's UI
---> Following the Mighty Mouse tradition of bad user interface.

So in other words, the Zen forces people to fix its terrible default UI, while Apple ships with a UI that isn't broken in the first place? I fail to see why this is an advantage for the Zen.

User interface should conform to the way user works, not the other way around.

So no one can use anyone else's machine?

ZEN = Highest audio quality of any MP3 player

At 64kbps? Don't make me laugh.

iPod = Debatable quality, many reports on pops and skips during playback

The quality is proven beyond debate. I've yet to hear anything about pops and skips on the Nano yet.

---> Creative is a premiere company for PC sound system. Apple isn't. Who wins?

Apple has had a greater marketshare than even Windows in the audio editing and production market for many years. They also have Logic Pro, one of the most heavily-used programs in music production in both its current incarnation and its previous incarnation as Logic Audio. They made the first home computers to provide sampled sound by default, then the first home computers to do wavetable audio, and the first to provide CD-ROM drives as default across the entire product line.

Go on; tell me with a straight face that Apple doesn't know audio.

I would say that no one could be this stupid unintentionally, but I was, once, only for the Mac side rather than the Windows side, many years ago. I'm older and wiser now, but that only lets me argue even better for the side I have chosen. I can, however, use my time as a zealot to make it easier to spot other zealots: it takes one to know one, after all. You, my friend, are one of these. You've been taken in and blinded by Microsoft's marketing, just as I once was by Apple's. Take the blinders off, and learn to find the truth. I fear it won't be as pleasant an experience for you as it was for me -after all, I turned out to be on the right side, even if it was for the wrong reasons- but the fact that I know you're a zealot is the only reason I haven't yet called for your banning as a troll. You're not a troll; you aren't posting with the intent to piss people off. You're just ignorant, and that's something which can be corrected without banning.

Be aware, however, that not all of the mods believe this. If they decide to ban you, I cannot stop them from doing so. I suggest you learn to research and back up your arguments with facts as quickly as possible, or I can't guarantee that you will last very long here.

[scaught]

dp.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by james9490

Speaking of grammar, your sitte suckks becuase you use FRAME!!

And you call yourself an expert, eh?

You're not scoring any points by insulting a person that we like. It's best that you just haul your trolling, anti-Apple ass out of here.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

Speaking of grammar, your sitte suckks becuase you use FRAME!!

Frames are indeed a Bad Thing, and I hope that he changes his mind on using them at some point, but that doesn't detract from the quality of his arguments. On the other hand, it's hard to take you seriously when your spelling, writing, and argumentative technique "suckks" so much.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by nbnz

I guess those many young girls might like these then.

That's what I call "cheating." You still need to resort to third party vendors to get all those colors. Besides, how about FM radio?

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Doofy

RAILhead, we need hot chicks in here. Stat.

No problem.

We haven't seen Ms. Beckinsale in a while:

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by james9490

That only proves that many consumers are not educated, they are just doing inpulse-buying, and many of them will regret their decision to go with iPod because ZEN is still a clear winner in value/price ratio.

not educated? like this:

That's much less than ZEN Micro player, but look at what they are charging for it:

iPod nano = $249 for 4GB
ZEN Micro = $229.99 for 6GB

ZEN Micro player beats iPod nano big time here as well.

ZEN = Up to 12 hours of playback time on a single charge
iPod = Up to 14 hours of music playback; up to 4 hours of slideshows with music (iPod wins here but 2 hours out of 14 hours isn't a huge win, and it goes down to a measly 4 hours when it's used for photos.)

So a $20 difference out of $250 is a big time win, an 8% difference;
but a 2 hour difference out of 14 isn't a huge win, a 14% difference in something that will affect users for the life of the product.
Nice

[smacintush]

Well, I am an expert in user-enjoyability and the Zen in a user-enjoyability nightmare.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by james9490

Speaking of grammar, your sitte suckks becuase you use FRAME!!

And you call yourself an expert, eh?

You're dadgum right I use frames -- and I use them better than anyone else on the entire interweb!!11!

Maury

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by james9490

People, you need to remember that there is an undeniable advantage with ZEN even if you can manage to ignore many of the other advantages it has: FM radio and voice recording.

I couldn't care less about having FM radio options (I don't listen to it anyway), but for once I find myself, much against my will, agreeing with a single little thing James says: I would like to have a recording option available for iPods. I would love to be able to record concerts directly on to my iPod, rather than having to use MiniDiscs or something similar (barring of course proper, professional equipment, which I have no hope of affording).

iPods are lacking somewhat in features, I think, for being the same price or, as often, more expensive than other MP3 players. It also has some unique features (photo transfers directly from digital cameras, for instance), but certain features included as standard with most other MP3 players are conspicuously absent from iPods, unfortunately.

But apart from this one point conceded, it is getting more and more blatantly obvious that James is here for no other purpose than slagging everything Apple does, and riling up as many MacNN'ers as he can by it. I disagree with Millennium's thought that he is merely ignorant: I think he is consciously just trying to make people angry. Despite his many assertations to the opposite, he is a troll, and I find it strange that he has not been banned yet. With no more than a handful of exceptions, every single post he has made has been solely inflammatory in nature.


Oh, and there's one small thing you seem to be overlooking about the Zen Micro, James: it only works with Windows, making it pretty much a non-option for about 99.9% of the people here, due to the very nature of this forum. That is definitely a major point to the advantage of the iPod: it works on both Macs, Windows boxes, and Linux boxes.

[isao bered]

mmmmmmm... zennnnnn... ;-)

www.do-not-zzz.com

laeth

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by james9490

That's what I call "cheating." You still need to resort to third party vendors to get all those colors. Besides, how about FM radio?

"cheating". Because the iPod is more flexible it's a cheater? Damn, that's silly.

Didn't we explain that we don't care about radio? We carry iPods so that we can escape the crap played on radio.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by james9490

I am very sure many young girls would be choosing this pink one over mean looking black iPod. Besides, didn't you notice that they offer 10 different colors for ZEN?

Nano Tubes has 5 colors so if you get bored of the color, replace it with something else.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Didn't we explain that we don't care about radio? We carry iPods so that we can escape the crap played on radio.