[vmarks]

Hamas is defending this cowardly attack, and Islamic Jihad is claiming responsibility to give Hamas some measure of obviously false deniability.




TEL AVIV (AFP) - Eight people were killed and dozens wounded in Israel’s commercial capital Tel Aviv when a Palestinian militant blew himself up in the deadliest suicide bombing of the last 20 months.

The attack took place hours before the swearing in of the new Israeli parliament following last month’s election won by the centrist Kadima party of Acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

The blast struck next to a fast food stand at around 1:45 pm (1045 GMT) in the southern Neveh Sha’anan district, close to the site of Tel Aviv’s old bus station. The area has been the scene of several previous attacks, including one in January.

The attack — the deadliest since a suicide bombing in August 2004 — was claimed by the Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad, which has been behind all of the most recent bomb attacks in Israel.

Moderate Palestinian Authority president Mahmud Abbas condemned what he called an act of terrorism while Olmert vowed that Israel would react in the “necessary fashion”.

The Palestinian militant group Hamas, which recently formed a new government following its upset victory in January elections, laid the blame at Israel’s door, calling it a natural consequence of its “aggression”.

[vmarks]

http://www.acage.org/news/?day=04172006&id=0006

"Last time we had a miracle, but there is no second time," Pini Gershon, one of the owners of the Tel Aviv falafel restaurant hit for the second time in a suicide bombing, said after the attack Monday.

Nine people were killed and dozens wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up at the "Mayor" falafel and shawarma restaurant at the old central bus station in southern Tel Aviv.

The first bombing, in January, left several dozen people wounded. Monday's attack, however, killed at least eight.

"Now it's a lot harder, especially when you see all the dead. That was the worst sight," Pini said. He was at the restaurant when the blast occurred, and his first concern was to make sure that his brothers were okay.

"I don't want to talk anymore," he said. "Last time, we talked and talked and only egged on the terrorists more."

Pini's brother and co-owner of the restaurant, Aryeh Sharon, told Channel 1 television on Monday that after the first attack they had put in a fence and hired a security guard, "so people would feel more relaxed."

"I don't know if it is a coincidence," Aryeh said of the two attacks. "After the first time it was hard to return to work... It's hard to say if we will open again."

A witness, Israel Yaakov, said the blast killed a woman standing near her husband and children, who were lightly wounded.

"The father was traumatized, he went into shock. He ran to the children to gather them up and the children were screaming, 'Mom! Mom!' and she wasn't answering, she was dead already... it's a shocking scene."

Moussa al-Zidat said the guard at the falafel restaurant where the attack occurred asked the bomber to open his bag.

"I saw a young man beginning to open his bag. The guard started to open the bag, and then I heard a boom."

" 'Rosh Ha'ir' falafel - right in front of me," an unnamed taxi driver told Israel Radio.

"It was a terrific explosion. I can't say , but I can say that it was a massive explosion, an unbelievable site. I saw at least eight ."

Sonia Levy, 62, said she had just finished shopping when the blast went off.

"I was about to get into my car, and boom, there was an explosion. A bit of human flesh landed on my car and I started to scream," she said. Her car was 50 meters from the explosion and its windshield was smeared with blood.

"I am beyond despair," said Asher Bracha, 46, the owner of a small market two doors from the restaurant that blew up.

"I heard a deafening blast. I knew it was another attack."

The wounded were treated on sidewalks. One man was lying on his side, his shirt pushed up and his back covered by bandages. A bleeding woman was wheeled away on a stretcher. A dazed-looking man walked near the site, his white T-shirt splattered with blood.

The blast shattered the windshields of cars, and blew out the windows of nearby buildings. Glass shards and blood splattered the ground. The sign of the restaurant's building was blown away. Bottles and other debris were
scattered up to 25 meters from the site of the blast.

While rescue crews tended to the wounded, a helicopter hovered overhead and a two marksmen took up positions on the roof of the targeted building. Teams sifted through debris looking for evidence and body parts.

[vmarks]

And furthermore...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/706823.html
Last update - 16:03 17/04/2006

Palestinian militants threaten to attack Jewish targets abroad

By Reuters

Palestinian militants linked to Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's increasingly fractured Fatah movement threatened on Monday to attack Jews overseas to force Israel to release Palestinian prisoners from its jails.

Islamic Jihad, also said they supported violence to free more than 8,000 prisoners held by Israel, but neither explicitly backed attacks on Jews abroad.

The call by militants of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades could heighten tension between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, which has been crippled financially by the loss of Western aid, and of tax and customs revenues frozen by Israel, after Hamas's crushing electoral win over Fatah in January.

"This is an open call to all our fighters in the homeland to focus on kidnapping Israeli soldiers and civilians inside our occupied land. And if the enemy does not release our prisoners, then Zionists outside Palestine will be an easy target for our fighters," the group said in a statement.

The threat was made shortly before a Palestinian suicide bomber killed himself and six other people at a sandwich stand in Tel Aviv, an attack claimed by both Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa.


----

You read that correctly: just before a suicide bombing supported by the ruling party in the PA, a statement issued by the party of the PA President threatens to export terrorism to countries around the world.

Not that this is anything new, they've been doing it since Munich, killing olympians, ambassadors and tourists around the world, but such a brazen threat and act, by an elected government-- why isn't this a declaration of war?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by vmarks

why isn't this a declaration of war?

It most certainly is. I hope Israel retaliates in a devastatiing fashion, causing thousands of casualties, and that's just for starters. Otherwise, the elected government of palestinian terrorists will keep continuing doing what they do.

[abe]

Originally Posted by vmarks

And furthermore...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/706823.html
Last update - 16:03 17/04/2006

Palestinian militants threaten to attack Jewish targets abroad

By Reuters

Palestinian militants linked to Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's increasingly fractured Fatah movement threatened on Monday to attack Jews overseas to force Israel to release Palestinian prisoners from its jails.

----

You read that correctly: just before a suicide bombing supported by the ruling party in the PA, a statement issued by the party of the PA President threatens to export terrorism to countries around the world.

Not that this is anything new, they've been doing it since Munich, killing olympians, ambassadors and tourists around the world, but such a brazen threat and act, by an elected government-- why isn't this a declaration of war?

HERE IS A 60 MINUTES INTERVIEW WITH SOME SUCH PRISONERS.

Be sure to read down to the part of the segment with prisoner, Amna Muna, who used the promise of sex to lure a 16 y/o Jewish boy she only knew from the internet to be killed by her Palestinian friends.

Terror Behind Bars
April 16, 2006

(CBS) Anyone who thought the U.S. was winning the war on terror got a rude shock when Hamas won an overwhelming victory in Palestinian elections in the West Bank and Gaza.

Hamas is a militant Islamic organization dedicated to the total destruction of Israel. It is responsible for more suicide bombings than all the other Palestinian organizations combined. Hamas leaders say they are struggling against the Israeli occupation.

But what really goes through the mind of a terrorist when he is bombing a café or plotting the murder of someone he never met? We know very little about this.

Accomplished terrorists are hardly ever captured alive — and when they are, they rarely give interviews. But correspondent Bob Simon was given unprecedented access to terrorist leaders in Israel's top security prison. He met men and women who haven't spoken to journalists since their capture. They shared their tales of terror.


The most notorious of all the prisoners held at the Be'er Sheva Prison is Abdullah Barghouti. It's not easy to get to see him because he’s being held in indefinite solitary confinement. He's been convicted of being the mastermind behind Hamas’ deadliest suicide bombings, responsible for the deaths of 66 people, including five Americans. How does he feel about this death toll?

"I feel bad because the number only 66. This the answer you want to hear it?" Barghouti told Simon.

"I want to hear what you have to say," Simon replied.

"No, this is the answer they want to hear it? Yes, I feel bad, because I want more," Barghouti said.

Barghouti has already killed more Israelis than anyone else. For two years, he sent suicide bombers to places, ordinary places, the names of which no Israeli will ever forget. They include "The Moment Café," the Hebrew University cafeteria and the Sbarro Pizzeria, where seven children were killed.

What is particularly grotesque about Barghouti's story is that he's a university graduate, well-traveled, a music lover. In fact, listen to how he made his first suicide bomb with his most prized possession.

"I get my best piece, the guitar. I have it, I like it, I respect it," he explains. "I open it, make a bomb inside it, close it, send it with the guy. And he make the bomb. And it’s done."

Barghouti says he was driven by revenge after Israel killed two Hamas leaders, who were his best friends, in an Apache helicopter attack in Nablus in July 2001.

"After I see that, what do you think me? Sit in the home, in the corner, and cry? No. The God, holy Quran, tell me, 'Who try to destroy you, you should destroy him,' " says Barghouti.

For Barghouti, it's eye for an eye — and then some. "Who he's — kick my eye, I will kick his two eye and poke his lip. Because later I can't see. But I can't — I can walk. But he, he can't see and he can't walk," he says.

Walking through this prison, this fortress in the desert, is an experience one can’t prepare oneself for. One of the blocs is home to the most hardened prisoners, all serving multiple life terms. The guards call it the "All-Star bloc." Simon says he knew the names of almost all these men, their names and their deeds. He never thought he’d be standing a few inches from them, having a chat.


Muhammed Jalala is one of those men, and he started his campaign from a strange place. He was a nurse in a Jerusalem hospital. In 1990, he helped care for Palestinian victims after the Israelis shot into a crowd at Jerusalem’s Al-Aqsa Mosque.

"I hate to see a drop of a blood from any kind of people," Jalala says.

But it was seeing the blood of his own people that inspired him to change his career — from nurse to terrorist. Five months after the Al-Aqsa tragedy, he went to a bus stop in a residential neighborhood in Jerusalem. Men and women were waiting there, civilians he’d never seen before.

Jalala went for a man, deciding to stab him.

What happened next?

"And then they start to shout, they try to attack me. And then begin the party," he recalls.

The party. Before he was subdued, Jalala stabbed 12 people, four of them women whom he stabbed to death.

Asked what was going through his mind as he was stabbing Israeli women, Jalala says, "I believe that any occupied people have to defend themselves in any means, in any ways…. If you kill my wife, I have to kill yours. This is a punishment. This is the point."

"This may be a point. But I don't believe that it was these points that were going through your mind as you were stabbing these women. I want to know what was going through your mind at the time," Simon asks.

"I just saw the black title. The revenge is the only means to stop our people’s killing," Jalala replies.

It was quenching that thirst for revenge which has packed Israel’s prisons. The men’s security wing at Be’er Sheva Prison is teeming, often eight to a cell.

Gilad Cohen, a guard at the prison, admits that facing these terrorists every day is very tough.

The Israelis subject the prisoners to a very tough regimen. There are constant head counts and cell searches; guards perform drills in the open to remind inmates what can happen if they step too far out of line.

But these prisoners maintain their own discipline. They see themselves as prisoners of war. Their cell blocks are separated into political factions, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the PLO. In the prison, there are no drugs and no violence.

These prisoners have won privileges. With money provided by their factions, they get daily newspapers, they watch TV with a choice of 15 channels, and they buy and cook their own food. The leaders meet regularly with their lawyers, who pass messages to their followers on the outside — which means that they can give orders from the inside.

Cohen acknowledges he deals with some very powerful people. "Very strong, very smart people," he says.

But the "very strong, very smart" people aren’t just men. There's the Hasharon Prison for Women, where inmate Amna Muna explains that many of the women are doing time for planning to be suicide bombers.

Muna wasn’t looking to blow herself up. She was looking for fame. She wanted to attack an Israeli in a new way — so she struck up a romance over the Internet with a 16-year-old Israeli boy named Ophir. She said her name was "Sally" and she wanted to have sex.

"Let me read you some of the exchanges you had with Ophir on the Internet. You wrote to Ophir, 'Did you ever have sex with a lady?' Ophir replied, 'I'm only 16 and a half. How many times do you think I had sex?' You wrote, 'Do you want sex with me?' What's it like hearing those words now?" Simon asks her.

"The same," she replies. "I know that I don't want to make sex with a boy or with any, with anyone. The aim was to kidnap him and to let all the world know what our families felt when they killed our sons."

She invited Ophir, over the Internet, to meet her in Jerusalem. He boarded a bus and she picked him up at the station.

Asked what Ophir looked like, Muna says he was "cute."

They left Jerusalem and headed for the West Bank. Muna was driving. She pulled over on the side of the road. Two of her friends approached with machine guns, and ordered Ophir out of the car. When he refused, they riddled him with bullets. His body was found two days later.


Muna claims she doesn't know what happened. "I was there. But I don't know exactly what happened. I was in a shock."

Asked if she feels guilty, Muna says, "I’m guilty because a human being (was) killed, and I was the reason. … But I think that I help my people, help my people. Till now, all the world talking about my case."

"Are you proud of that?" Simon asks.

"I have to be proud. There is something inside me all the time telling me I am kind inside myself, and I will continue to be kind," she answers.

"I’d like to hear you tell Ophir’s parents that, that you’re kind. I’d like to hear you tell them that, and I’d like to see their faces when you tell them that," Simon says.

"They will not understand me," Muna replies. "They will not understand me. But they have to understand that it’s a war, it’s a war."

Muna is continuing her war behind bars. There are elections in these prisons, and she campaigned hard to become leader of the women prisoners. She won, hands down.

Why do the Israelis allow this? They need prisoner leaders to deal with. In jail, Israelis and Palestinians have to coexist. In fact, this is one of the few places in the Middle East where the two sides actually talk to each other.

If you want to see that happening, you should see Israeli Major Yuval Biton. He’s always talking to the inmates. That’s when he’s not working his day job as the prison dentist, seeing to the cavities and root canals of the killers.

"You're dealing with some very dangerous men," Simon remarks.

"Maybe outside," Maj. Biton replies.

He says he doesn't think these inmates are a danger to him inside the prison, and says he is never afraid one of them will attack him. When he is treating the inmates, Biton says he is alone with them in the room.

Asked if he is concerned that one of the prisoners, some of whom are pretty big, might attack him, Biton says, "He need to be crazy to attack me. I assist them. And they understand it."

Before they were jailed, these Palestinians only understood Israelis as armed soldiers. But in jail, they learn Hebrew and they take courses at Israeli universities. Prison authorities told 60 Minutes that many of them become more pragmatic while they're behind bars. But make no mistake, all the prisoners we talked to see themselves as disciplined soldiers — loyal to their organizations, committed to the struggle.

Asked if he ever escaped from jail and was asked by Hamas to kill Israelis again, Abdullah Barghouti says, "I will make it again."

"Again, again, again," he says. "If my organization, she say 'You should do it,' I will do it, and I will close my eyes."

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by PacHead

It most certainly is. I hope Israel retaliates in a devastatiing fashion, causing thousands of casualties, and that's just for starters. Otherwise, the elected government of palestinian terrorists will keep continuing doing what they do.

Innocents are always the losers in any "slow-burn" war like this. If Israel did what you want, they'd simply provide more motivation for more people like that horribly sociopathic woman or the other thousands of would be suicide bombers out there to strike back the "great evil" they perceive in Israel not to mention all the people that would needlessly die in the process, having nothing to do with terrorism.

Neither side realizes that it's evil that's winning this whole thing anyway, no matter who kills who. It takes the bigger person to say "none of this is worth killing anyone about." As soon as someone does that, it's over.

edit: damn, that was a big fragment for minute there

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by UNTeMac

Neither side realizes that it's evil that's winning this whole thing anyway, no matter who kills who. It takes the bigger person to say "none of this is worth killing anyone about." As soon as someone does that, it's over.

I totally disagree with that. If Israel laid down it's weapons tommorow, there would be no Israel. I think what I wrote should happen, only then will it end.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PacHead

It most certainly is. I hope Israel retaliates in a devastatiing fashion, causing thousands of casualties, and that's just for starters. Otherwise, the elected government of palestinian terrorists will keep continuing doing what they do.

So you plan to shut down a Hamas run government by killing any civilian doubt in Hamas's promise of a coming Israeli attack?

Sounds like a great plan.

[olePigeon]

I hate religion.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by goMac

So you plan to shut down a Hamas run government by killing any civilian doubt in Hamas's promise of a coming Israeli attack?

Sounds like a great plan.

You shut down a hamas government by killing every terrorist in that government, that's how.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I hate religion.

Religion doesn't lie at the heart of this conflict. The issue is the right to independence and national self determination.

RE: the topic - Israel has been launching repeated attacks against Palestinians for months, injuring many and killing an 8 year old Palestinian child. Retaliation was inevitable.

[vmarks]

Um, no.

In case you hadn't noticed, Israel has not responded one whit to the rockets flying into Israel from Gaza. Israel hasn't launched repeated attacks against anyone for months.

This is not retailiation, this is Hamas using a boy to do their dirty work.

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

<snip>Retaliation was inevitable.

There's my point. This is why people are still dying. No one will realize that it won't stop until they decide it does. Nobody wants to lose but they don't realize that they aren't winning.

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by PacHead

I totally disagree with that. If Israel laid down it's weapons tommorow, there would be no Israel. I think what I wrote should happen, only then will it end.

Not lay down its weapons...just stop killing. Palestinians could stop this too.

Just stop killing. Don't succumb to the base instinct of "I'm gonna kill you back." It's primitive, animalistic and both sides are guilty.

This is different than what i think Iran would like to do and for that reason, Israel should keep it weapons but stop using them for revenge.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Um, no.

In case you hadn't noticed, Israel has not responded one whit to the rockets flying into Israel from Gaza. Israel hasn't launched repeated attacks against anyone for months.

Um, yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4910810.stm

Since the start of April, Israeli forces say they have fired more than 2,000 artillery shells into the northern Gaza Strip.

Originally Posted by vmarks

This is not retailiation, this is Hamas using a boy to do their dirty work.

The militant group Islamic Jihad was behind this attack, not Hamas.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by UNTeMac

There's my point. This is why people are still dying. No one will realize that it won't stop until they decide it does. Nobody wants to lose but they don't realize that they aren't winning.

I agree completely.

But you won't get a permanent ceasefire until the antagonists on both sides are convinced of a viable non-violent political alternative.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Um, no.

In case you hadn't noticed, Israel has not responded one whit to the rockets flying into Israel from Gaza. Israel hasn't launched repeated attacks against anyone for months.

I agree with most of what you're saying regarding Israel's position and those of the Islamic nations around it, but this fanatical pro-Israeli stance you take gets old after a while. It pretty much mirrors the Bush stance most of the Conservatives on here seem to display: any contradiction is viewed as some sort of sin!

It's okay to criticize your government, your country, or even your religion. Think different, once in a while. You obviously have a problem with this, when you display a knee-jerk reaction to a critical comment on Israel and make such a blatantly incorrect statement as the one above.

[edit: looks like someone put a BBC link up already regarding Israeli rocket attacks into Gaza]

greg


Now Playing: Calexico – Broken Social Scene – 7/4 (Shorelines)

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Um, yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4910810.stm


The militant group Islamic Jihad was behind this attack, not Hamas.

SMACKDOWN™

[Y3a]

from recent events, it seem that Muslim extremists only know how to kill others. Compromise, and peace don't even seem to be in their vocabulary. I think they are headed for mass extinction if they continue.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

I agree with most of what you're saying regarding Israel's position and those of the Islamic nations around it, but this fanatical pro-Israeli stance you take gets old after a while.[/B]

Precisely what about vmarks' statements causes you to characterize him as a fanatic? Is it simply because he supports Israel? If that makes vmarks a fanatic your book, I wonder how you would characterize me.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

SMACKDOWN™

Big deal, the hamas government supports the attacks, as they have clearly stated. A terrorist is a terrorist, who cares who did it, hamas, or islamic jihad, or fatah or anybody else. They will all be dealt with. Do you think people cared if the luftwaffe or SS or hitler jugend was responsible for killing in WWII ? It's all the same crap.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Precisely what about vmarks' statements causes you to characterize him as a fanatic? Is it simply because he supports Israel? If that makes vmarks a fanatic your book, I wonder how you would characterize me.

Perhaps that in the quote vmarks is shown to be either lying or completely out of touch with reality as has been shown with the link to the BBC article.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

The militant group Islamic Jihad was behind this attack, not Hamas.

Hamas is the government, hamas supports the attacks. Hamas is responsible.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Um, yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4910810.stm


The militant group Islamic Jihad was behind this attack, not Hamas.

In case you didn't notice, both Islamic Jihad AND Al-Aqsa Martyr's scrambled to take credit. Why? Because it boosts their standing as ruthless thugs and gives Hamas cover to say they had nothing to do with it.


UnteMac, you're right. I've been saying it for years in these forums:

The conflict ends when the Palestinians OR the Israelis realize they can afford to lose no more.
For the Palestinians, that means Israel ceases to exist, and the Jews leave or die.
For Israel, that means the Palestinians stop launching attacks and govern themselves as a peaceful state alongside Israel.

Until either one of those happens, negotiations are premature and prolong the disaster.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

In case you didn't notice, both Islamic Jihad AND Al-Aqsa Martyr's scrambled to take credit. Why? Because it boosts their standing as ruthless thugs and gives Hamas cover to say they had nothing to do with it.


UnteMac, you're right. I've been saying it for years in these forums:

The conflict ends when the Palestinians OR the Israelis realize they can afford to lose no more.
For the Palestinians, that means Israel ceases to exist, and the Jews leave or die.
For Israel, that means the Palestinians stop launching attacks and govern themselves as a peaceful state alongside Israel.

Until either one of those happens, negotiations are premature and prolong the disaster.

Do you really believe that?!?!

[RAILhead]

We need to just build a huge wall around them and let them kill each other off.

[vmarks]

Absolutely, and the evidence bears it out as true.

The Palestinians currently have the hope that they can succeed by eradicating Israel and making it free of Jews. Establishing an Islamic Republic with the capital of the Caliphate in Jerusalem.

That's what Hamas shamelessly declares.

Israel, on the other hand, has offered repeatedly to divide in order to create the Palestinian state. Israel even went so far as to give up Gaza effectively creating the Palestinian State, and is preparing to do the same for much of Judea/Samaria.

As long as Palestinians believe that they can make Israel go away, negotiations are premature.
One side has to be prepared to give up before negotiations are meaningful. They prolong the deaths because neither side is ready to surrender. Negotiations are for what happens after the fighting is over.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

We need to just build a huge wall around them and let them kill each other off.

You could, but what do you have to say to Fatah's declaration that they will export suicide bombers to the western countries of the world?

It's fine and well for you to wall off the problem when it's just the Israelis getting killed, but what do you do when they want to attack Jews elsewhere in the world? In your country?

"This is an open call to all our fighters in the homeland to focus on kidnapping Israeli soldiers and civilians inside our occupied land. And if the enemy does not release our prisoners, then Zionists outside Palestine will be an easy target for our fighters," the group said in a statement.

[RAILhead]

If the wall was big enough, no one could leave. We could just come back in a year or two, torch the interior for a few months, pave, and start over with a massive Wal-Mart or Super Target.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Negotiations are for what happens after the fighting is over.

That makes no sense. You negotiate to stop the fighting. If the fighting ended, there would be no need to negotiate.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

If the wall was big enough, no one could leave. We could just come back in a year or two, torch the interior for a few months, pave, and start over with a massive Wal-Mart or Super Target.

Well, it is ironic that Israel is using the same strategies as apartheid South Africa to contain and oppress.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Negotiations are for what happens after the fighting is over.

If the fighting is over then what is there to negotiate about?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

This is not retailiation, this is Hamas using a boy to do their dirty work.

That "boy" was 21 years old btw.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Nicko

That makes no sense. You negotiate to stop the fighting. If the fighting ended, there would be no need to negotiate.

You don't negotiate with terrorists and Hamas is terrorists. After the palestinians lose one time for all, they will just have to live on whatever little patch of land is left for them.

[vmarks]

Negotiations determine what happens after fighting.
Surrender is what ends fighting.

Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have been counterproductive. Palestinians see Israel as a rather more fragile state than they had in the beginning. Diplomacy should come when the Palestinians realize they cannot defeat Israel.

Diplomacy aiming to close down the Arab-Israeli conflict is premature until Palestinians give up their anti-Zionist fantasy.

When, over a long period of time and with complete consistency, the Palestinians prove they accept Israel, negotiations can be re-opened and the issues of the past decade - borders, resources, armaments, sanctities, residential rights - be taken up anew.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

That "boy" was 21 years old btw.

Wrong, 16. It doesn't really matter anyhow, any age can be a terrorist.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Negotiations determine what happens after fighting.
Surrender is what ends fighting.

Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have been counterproductive. Palestinians see Israel as a rather more fragile state than they had in the beginning. Diplomacy should come when the Palestinians realize they cannot defeat Israel.

Diplomacy aiming to close down the Arab-Israeli conflict is premature until Palestinians give up their anti-Zionist fantasy.

When, over a long period of time and with complete consistency, the Palestinians prove they accept Israel, negotiations can be re-opened and the issues of the past decade - borders, resources, armaments, sanctities, residential rights - be taken up anew.

That's a view that I doubt most Israelis agree with. I wouldn't if I lived there. Who wants never-ending conflict? I personally support the unilateral disengagement policy. A negotiated settlement simply isn't going to work. You have two parties with a power imbalance - one is occupying the other. You can't "negotiate" under those condition. Israel is the more powerful party, so they have to end it if they want it to end.

[Kevin]

No matter what Israel does, they wont stop till they are GONE.

They have said this.

So tell us. What should we do.

And making israel GONE isn't an option.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No matter what Israel does, they wont stop till they are GONE.

They have said this.

So tell us. What should we do.

And making israel GONE isn't an option.

Like I said, I support Sharon's unilateral disengagement policy: Get the settlers out and put up a wall if they must. Obviously negotiation isn't going to work, because they simply can't agree, so it goes to the more powerful of the two parties to end it. If, at some point in the future, they want to and are capable of negotiating, then they can re-adjust the borders.

[vmarks]

BRussell, what you are overlooking is that the Palestinians declared that the unilateral surrender of Gaza and the forthcoming unilateral surrender of Judea is a victory for their terrorism.

Which they are continuing proudly, brazenly, both by firing rockets on Israel -daily- and by attacks such as this.

So what precisely about the unilateral action has contributed to ending anything?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Negotiations determine what happens after fighting.
Surrender is what ends fighting.

Such utter tripe.

Surrender:

1 a : to yield to the power, control, or possession of another upon compulsion or demand <surrendered the fort> b : to give up completely or agree to forgo especially in favor of another
2 a : to give (oneself) up into the power of another especially as a prisoner b : to give (oneself) over to something (as an influence)
intransitive senses : to give oneself up into the power of another :

You negotiate to end the fighting and an end to the conflict. If one side surrenders there is nothing to negotiate about.

But once again you show your true beliefs in this conflict. You want this conflict to continue until the Palestinians surrender and are humiliated. You believe that they are like dogs who will only obey after a proper scolding. Such despicable beliefs should belong to the past.

Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have been counterproductive. Palestinians see Israel as a rather more fragile state than they had in the beginning. Diplomacy should come when the Palestinians realize they cannot defeat Israel.

They have been counter-productive because the extremists on both sides want the fighting to continue. The extremists in power in Israel want a return to Eretz Israel. The extremists in Palestine want Israel (and some the Jews) destroyed. Both these sets of extremists (voted in by both populations) work hand in hand in making peace impossible.

Which is why the international community must step in and use force to maintain security for a period long enough to create a generation not filled with hate for the other side.

Diplomacy aiming to close down the Arab-Israeli conflict is premature until Israelis give up their Zionist fantasy.

Fixed with an equally valid point.

When, over a long period of time and with complete consistency, the Palestinians prove they accept Israel, negotiations can be re-opened and the issues of the past decade - borders, resources, armaments, sanctities, residential rights - be taken up anew.

Again talking about the Palestinians as they are some kind of untermänchen. Please stop this nonsense.

An occupied nation will never accept their occupier, and neither should they. And until you learn that those issues you mention in that part of your post is the reason Israelis don't have enough security this conflict will continue and people on both sides will suffer.

You need to start negotiations today on those issues if you want to have peace tomorrow.

Olof Palme:

The resistance of the racist regimes raises the question of whether changes can be brought about only by violence, by armed struggle, or whether there is still a peaceful way of eradicating the affront to human dignity known as colonialism, racism and apartheid. We all obviously prefer peaceful solutions to violent ones. But those of us who are privileged and who have had the good fortune of peaceful change should never moralize about it, never try to appear virtuous in relation to those who have been forced to take up arms to liberate themselves. If we do, we have forgotten our own past.

[abe]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

We need to just build a huge wall around them and let them kill each other off.

You don't really want that to happen.

[abe]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

I agree with most of what you're saying regarding Israel's position and those of the Islamic nations around it, but this fanatical pro-Israeli stance you take gets old after a while. It pretty much mirrors the Bush stance most of the Conservatives on here seem to display: any contradiction is viewed as some sort of sin!

It's okay to criticize your government, your country, or even your religion. Think different, once in a while. You obviously have a problem with this, when you display a knee-jerk reaction to a critical comment on Israel and make such a blatantly incorrect statement as the one above.

[edit: looks like someone put a BBC link up already regarding Israeli rocket attacks into Gaza]

greg


Now Playing: Calexico – Broken Social Scene – 7/4 (Shorelines)

Why do I so frequently find liberals lacking in education?

One can be uneducated and be a conservative. But if a liberal gets smart it's unlikely they would find any appeal in liberal politics.

But, DAMN it's taking you a long ass time!

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Such utter tripe.

Surrender:

1 a : to yield to the power, control, or possession of another upon compulsion or demand <surrendered the fort> b : to give up completely or agree to forgo especially in favor of another
2 a : to give (oneself) up into the power of another especially as a prisoner b : to give (oneself) over to something (as an influence)
intransitive senses : to give oneself up into the power of another :

You negotiate to end the fighting and an end to the conflict. If one side surrenders there is nothing to negotiate about.

But once again you show your true beliefs in this conflict. You want this conflict to continue until the Palestinians surrender and are humiliated. You believe that they are like dogs who will only obey after a proper scolding. Such despicable beliefs should belong to the past.

I have NEVER called anyone "dogs."

You keep making these accusations, but have no evidence to support them.

I have NEVER called anyone subhuman or untermenschen.


YOU are violating forum rules and you owe me an apology.


The fact that you want to paint me with that brush because it fits your false world view doesn't make it so. The fact that you want to call your world view 'equally valid' when it is based on incorrect definitions (like your grotesquely incorrect definition of the word Zionist for example) is also wrong.

That you then have the unmitigated gall to cite the definition of the word surrender to me is outrageous.



Israel surrendered Gaza. It maintains no military there. Gazans regularly launch rockets into Israel. Gaza is controlled by the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian Authority once was a government with no land to govern. Today, they govern Gaza. This is a de facto Palestinian state. Created by Israel.

Created by the moderates that you call extremists.

Let's see:
Israeli extremists (as you call them) surrendered Gaza.
Palestinian extremists declare to the world their intention to rid the land of Jews, to erase Israel from the map.


Your great solution is to bring in the "International Community."

Is this the same "International Community" that can't find the words to condemn terrorism, that can't prevent a meeting in Durban from turning into an anti-Jew fest, that doesn't have a useful word to say when Israel is attacked? 

I'm very sorry to tell you: The "international community" has prolonged the suffering of everyone involved.

And you haven't even considered addressing the statement that Palestinians plan on exporting terrorism to the rest of the world again.

How will you defend them when they explode themselves in America? In Germany? In Spain? In the UK?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I have NEVER called anyone "dogs."

You keep making these accusations, but have no evidence to support them.

I have NEVER called anyone subhuman or untermenschen.

YOU are violating forum rules and you owe me an apology.

Read my post again. I didn't say that you "called anyone a dog". Notice how I word it. I also didn't say that you "called anyone subhuman or untermänchen". Again, notice how I word it.

I acknowledge that the "untermänchen" part of my post was not clear enough though so I'll fix it.

I'd never say that you called anyone that. You are wise enough politically to never do it in public.

The fact that you want to paint me with that brush because it fits your false world view doesn't make it so. The fact that you want to call your world view 'equally valid' when it is based on incorrect definitions (like your grotesquely incorrect definition of the word Zionist for example) is also wrong.

Then tell me. What rosy definition of Zionist do you use? And what should I call those who still want to create Eretz Israel? What's the difference between a "Zionist" (your definition) and a person wanting to create Eretz Israel?

That you then have the unmitigated gall to cite the definition of the word surrender to me is outrageous.

What's outrageous about it is that you needed it pointed out. It's pretty clear from the definition of the word that no negotiations can follow a surrender.

But it also shows pretty well what you truly want the Palestinians to do. The following part of the definition especially:

to give up completely or agree to forgo especially in favor of another

Israel surrendered Gaza. It maintains no military there. Gazans regularly launch rockets into Israel. Gaza is controlled by the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian Authority once was a government with no land to govern. Today, they govern Gaza. This is a de facto Palestinian state. Created by Israel.

It didn't surrender Gaza. It still controls the borders (except one crossing to Egypt), the airspace and IIRC the sea around it. That's no surrender. That's just creating a one big jail.

Created by the moderates that you call extremists.

Sharon is no moderate. Don't kid yourself.

Let's see:
Israeli extremists (as you call them) surrendered Gaza.
Palestinian extremists declare to the world their intention to rid the land of Jews, to erase Israel from the map.

See answers above.

Your great solution is to bring in the "International Community."

Is this the same "International Community" that can't find the words to condemn terrorism, that can't prevent a meeting in Durban from turning into an anti-Jew fest, that doesn't have a useful word to say when Israel is attacked? 

Yes, that same international community. The problem in "finding the words to condemn terrorism" is from both sides. Both sides want to create a definition that will suite them but hurt the other. Israel does it, the US does it, Saudi Arabia does it, Iran does it. Until all these sides decide to treat all terrorism the same little will be done. But that means both sides have to give in a bit. Not just "the other side".

And "anti-Jew" fest. Could you elaborate on that a bit? Or are you confusing anti-semitism with anti-Zionism?

What "useful" word are you looking for from the international community? Isn't starving the Palestinian people enough? Or how about the continued financial support Israel gets to continue the occupation? What more do you need?

I'm very sorry to tell you: The "international community" has prolonged the suffering of everyone involved.

Indeed they have. I agree with you on this. But I would guess we disagree on how. Could you explain how the international community has prolonged the suffering in your opinion?

And you haven't even considered addressing the statement that Palestinians plan on exporting terrorism to the rest of the world again.

How will you defend them when they explode themselves in America? In Germany? In Spain? In the UK?

How will I defend them? I won't. Just like I won't defend them using terrorism in Israel, just like I won't defend them using terrorism in Palestine, just like I won't defend terrorism anywhere. But you just had to insinuate that I support terrorism didn't you? Where's my apology for that Mr. Moderator?

And lastly, please don't belittle yourself by "threatening" me with you moderator status. It's quite obvious what I said and if you can't keep your opinions on me and my kind away from your moderating then perhaps you should give up your moderator status.

[ink]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I hate religion.

No doubt olePigeon; I'd also expand it to religious-like ideologies (communism, conservativism, alcoholism, etc.). Leaving Mormonism has opened my eyes to a lot of detrious that religions introduce to our thought patterns.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PacHead

You shut down a hamas government by killing every terrorist in that government, that's how.

You can't. Attacking Hamas creates more terrorists. That's the problem.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by abe

Why do I so frequently find liberals lacking in education?

One can be uneducated and be a conservative. But if a liberal gets smart it's unlikely they would find any appeal in liberal politics.

But, DAMN it's taking you a long ass time!

I don't understand your post. It's very unclear as to what you're talking about re: my post, since you don't actually seem to address it. How does a liberal "get smart"?? Do you mean educated? One is usually bequeathed "smartness" before they become a liberal, in my experience. Most bastions of higher learning have traditionally been known as liberal enclaves, no? Following that logic, one would think liberals would be MORE educated. Either way, it's my bet that you don't actually have any higher education, since they teach you how to present clear, concise and orderly arguments there – a skill that you're notorious for lacking, as this post clearly shows.

But, on a similar note, why do I so frequently find Conservatives to be so old?? Have you ever thought about that – most of the hardcore Conservatives on here tend to be the older people? Maybe it's the same reason why many liberal activists often tend to "go soft" as they age? More investment in society, more to lose, less interest in seeing the years of hard work go up in smoke and a soft and easy retirement life potentially disappear along with a radical shift in society?

greg

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

We need to just build a huge wall around them and let them kill each other off.

Originally Posted by abe

You don't really want that to happen.

Here's another vote for walling off Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. Let em all go at it tooth and nail until no-one is left alive or both sides decide they have had enough and lay down their arms.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by goMac

You can't. Attacking Hamas creates more terrorists. That's the problem.

I have the solution for those people also.