[pooka]

Long time ago, during one of my brief state funded incarcerations, I was *ahem* encouraged to participate in the Sunday service going on in the exercise facilities. While there, a great deal of attention was focused on myself by the resident POG (person of god). After an hour or so of the pros and cons of not accepting Jesus Christ as my one and only true savior, I left the facilities with the promise of "I'll sleep on it" before making my decision.

While I was resting in my cell, I decided to catch up on some Greek philosophy. Can you guys imagine the shame of being the Athenian parent of a stupid child? What stress that would be. Anyway, while lying in my cell, I realized, holy ****... Plato didn't accept mutha****in Jesus into his heart. To this day, I still wonder about the fate of Plato's eternal soul. Is he burning in hell with Ghandi?

So anyway, I started thinking about Israel, Palenstine and Lebanon. So, let's say that Israel pulls up shop, marches out of the occupied territories, and tells the Palestinians "we're sorry, we were dicks."

Cool. They setup shop, and all is well. What happens if (and you know they will) some group of rascals start lobbin' missiles back into Israel's territory. As illustrated with Lebanon/Hezbullies, they'll pitch a fit, invade and start ****ing **** up. What then? When does the cycle stop and who *should* bear the weight of having to suck it up?

Anyone?

[Nicko]

Well, IMO until Israel fully turns over the occupied territories, Palestinians/Hammas/Hezbolla will have justification (in their eyes) to fight for their freedom (William wallace style).

Anyway, in the long run it is Israel that has the most to lose by not establishing a fair peace.
Israel is outnumbered and surrouned by 'enemies'. Eventually the military cost of maintaining their security will be their downfall, regardless of their US patron.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by pooka

Long time ago, during one of my brief state funded incarcerations, I was *ahem* encouraged to participate in the Sunday service going on in the exercise facilities. While there, a great deal of attention was focused on myself by the resident POG (person of god). After an hour or so of the pros and cons of not accepting Jesus Christ as my one and only true savior, I left the facilities with the promise of "I'll sleep on it" before making my decision.

While I was resting in my cell, I decided to catch up on some Greek philosophy. Can you guys imagine the shame of being the Athenian parent of a stupid child? What stress that would be. Anyway, while lying in my cell, I realized, holy ****... Plato didn't accept mutha****in Jesus into his heart. To this day, I still wonder about the fate of Plato's eternal soul. Is he burning in hell with Ghandi?

still tryin to figure out what in the Sam Hill this entire paragraph has to do with the question posed in the thread below.

So anyway, I started thinking about Israel, Palenstine and Lebanon. So, let's say that Israel pulls up shop, marches out of the occupied territories, and tells the Palestinians "we're sorry, we were dicks."

... then pulled out of Gaza with plans to withdraw more from West Bank. It did them no good at all. None. Why would you ask questions that have already been answered by history???

Cool. They setup shop, and all is well. What happens if (and you know they will) some group of rascals start lobbin' missiles back into Israel's territory.

You know they will because they have, time and again. Why? Because Israel still has a tiny sliver of territory. This is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

As illustrated with Lebanon/Hezbullies, they'll pitch a fit, invade and start ****ing **** up. What then? When does the cycle stop and who *should* bear the weight of having to suck it up?

It will not stop until each and every last Israeli is "sucking up" water from beneath the surface of the Mediterranean Sea. It will not stop until the Israeli decides they no longer want to exist. Damned Israelis!!!

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Anyway, in the long run it is Israel that has the most to lose by not establishing a fair peace.

Wrong, in the long run it is the arab palestinians who will have to continue living like garbage as long as they keep up their love affair with terrorists. They've been living like crap for decades now while Israel is more and more prosperous.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Well, IMO until Israel fully turns over the occupied territories, Palestinians/Hammas/Hezbolla will have justification (in their eyes) to fight for their freedom (William wallace style).

Anyway, in the long run it is Israel that has the most to lose by not establishing a fair peace.
Israel is outnumbered and surrouned by 'enemies'. Eventually the military cost of maintaining their security will be their downfall, regardless of their US patron.

Except that the Scots didn't move into the area, from Denmark, just to screw with the Brits. You can romanticize them all you want, but it still doesn't make them (the Palestinians) anything more than terrorists.

You have no idea how many resources (money and arms) Israel has at their disposal. They've not even scratched the surface.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Except that the Scots didn't move into the area, from Denmark, just to screw with the Brits. You can romanticize them all you want, but it still doesn't make them (the Palestinians) anything more than terrorists.

You have no idea how many resources (money and arms) Israel has at their disposal. They've not even scratched the surface.

Agreed, I still don't understand why people seem to associate Hezbollah and the Palestinian bombers with romantic ideals of French revolutionaries or Che. It's so ironic to me to see feminists and other liberal groups marching for organizations that would happily force the feminists to wear burkhas and quit their jobs and execute the other liberal groups for expressing their opinions.

The only thing I can think of is that these terrorist groups have damn good marketing and PR people.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

Agreed, I still don't understand why people seem to associate Hezbollah and the Palestinian bombers with romantic ideals of French revolutionaries or Che.

Well for that matter, it's pretty silly that anyone ever romanticized Che. He was a terrorist in many ways himself.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

You can romanticize them all you want, but it still doesn't make them (the Palestinians) anything more than terrorists.

4 million Palestinians and every single one of them is a terrorist. Do you expect anyone to take your opinions seriously when you constantly spew this rubbish?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

4 million Palestinians and every single one of them is a terrorist. Do you expect anyone to take your opinions seriously when you constantly spew this rubbish?

I don't know, I stopped taking your rubbish seriously a long time ago.

HEY, I know, maybe they shouldn't have elected a terrorist group to represent their government! Wow, what a concept. Tell ya what, when they kick those bastards out of office, arrest them, and punish them accordingly, I'll change my stance. Deal?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

4 million Palestinians and every single one of them is a terrorist. Do you expect anyone to take your opinions seriously when you constantly spew this rubbish?

The majority are, they love hamas.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

HEY, I know, maybe they shouldn't have elected a terrorist group to represent their government! Wow, what a concept.

You and Bin Laden go to the same school or something? You use exactly the same justifications for killing people.

P.S. In your book, all Americans are Republican because they elected a Republican government, right?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

You and Bin Laden go to the same school or something? You use exactly the same justifications for killing people.

P.S. In your book, all Americans are Republican because they elected a Republican government, right?

Crawl back under your bridge, Adolf. Republicans aren't a terrorist organization (except in the minds of fu**wits), no matter how much you distort the truth.

Unless you're a complete idiot, you'd see that Hamas has the mandate of the people... and by a huge margin. When they change that, I'll change my mind.

[Y3a]

Originally Posted by Troll

You and Bin Laden go to the same school or something? You use exactly the same justifications for killing people.

I wanna here YOUR interpretation of these 'justifications' you are referring to. On the surface it sound like more hysterical ignorant blather.

Originally Posted by Troll

P.S. In your book, all Americans are Republican because they elected a Republican government, right?

Neither party wants to be connected to, or protected by terrorists. Only the cowards in the middle east are so stupid and cowardly as to allow nutcases with weapons to protect them. We already see how the hezzbullies hide behind women and children.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Well for that matter, it's pretty silly that anyone ever romanticized Che. He was a terrorist in many ways himself.

Your absolutely right, but yet Che's picture is one of the most popular t-shirt designs around. All someone has to be is labeled a "rebel" and they instantly become noble and worthy of sympathy. Especially if they have a marketable image.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Republicans aren't a terrorist organization (except in the minds of fu**wits), no matter how much you distort the truth.

I never said they were. I said your rationale that the Palestinians elected a terrorist party therefore they are terrorists, when applied to the United States leads to the conclusion that all Americans are Republicans. Equally, you could say that all Americans are anti-abortion in the same way that all Palestinians are pro-terrorism.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Y3a

I wanna here YOUR interpretation of these 'justifications' you are referring to. On the surface it sound like more hysterical ignorant blather.

"Hear" not "here". Bin Laden says that American civilians are responsible for the acts of the government they elected. Which is exactly what MacNStein says - that Palestinians civilians are fair game because they elected Hamas.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Troll

I never said they were. I said your rationale that the Palestinians elected a terrorist party therefore they are terrorists, when applied to the United States leads to the conclusion that all Americans are Republicans.

No. You're not even using correct logic.

THIS is the actual logic that applies here:

"the Palestinians elected a terrorist party therefore they are terrorists" (I'd personally revise that to say that a majority supports terrorists, and therefore holds much responsibility in the strife that support brings down on them.)

"Americans elected a party that has no terrorist members therefore they are not terrorists."

You of course knew that, but you're obfuscating as usual.

[Uncle Skeleton]

"Shock and Awe is terrorism"

(Yes, ebuddy, I saw that on a bumper sticker)

I don't think that the US government is a terrorist organization. But I do think that if you live in a country that is perpetually bombarded by US sponsored artillery you would be justified in thinking so (or at least that they are in the same category of "evil"). If you want citizens of group A (palestians) to reprimand their own members who are perpetuating the conflict, you can't very well oppose citizens of group B (the US) who are attempting to do the same from their side.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

"Americans elected a party that has no terrorist members therefore they are not terrorists."

I wasn't trying to show that Americans are terrorists. I was trying to show that you can't make a generalisation about people based on the government they elected.

Here's the logic that MacNStein applies:

Palestinians elected Hamas.
Hamas = pro-terrorism.
Ergo, Palestinians = terrorists

By the same token:

Americans elected the Republican Party.
Republican = anti-abortion.
Ergo, Americans = anti-abortionists.

Hamas has a lot of different ideas just like the Republicans. Some of the people that voted for them liked certain of their ideas and not others. I would imagine that very few liked every single thing that Hamas stands for.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Troll

Hamas has a lot of different ideas just like the Republicans. Some of the people that voted for them liked certain of their ideas and not others. I would imagine that very few liked every single thing that Hamas stands for.

HYPERBOLORIFFIC!

[Y3a]

Back on thread...

IMO...

Israel should NUKE Beruit, just to spite them.
Damascus should be next.
Tehran after that.

They need to find OBL's kid and behead him.
I think this would put enough fear in the minds
of the Islamist nutcases so they would think
before ever attacking Israel again.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Kevin

HYPERBOLORIFFIC!

Explain.

[Spliffdaddy]

Israel nuking Lebanon would send a clear message.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Israel nuking Lebanon would send a clear message.

What moron would nuke their next-door-neighbour?

[hey!_Zeus]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Israel nuking Lebanon would send a clear message.

Your as fekkin nuts as Cody Dawg...and that is pretty far gone!

[invisibleX]

Double post.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Israel nuking Lebanon would send a clear message.

So you want to basically just kill everyone because they're all evil. Ok, fine.

Now lets say hamas, who believe israelis are eeeeevillll, post on some random forum saying "hey, lets uses biological weapons on our enemies and eradicate them".

Now to me, both these statements seem to be radical extremism.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Y3a

Back on thread...

IMO...

Israel should NUKE Beruit, just to spite them.
Damascus should be next.
Tehran after that.

They need to find OBL's kid and behead him.
I think this would put enough fear in the minds
of the Islamist nutcases so they would think
before ever attacking Israel again.

You advocate killing thousands if not millions of innocents. Killing without prejudice.


And you call THEM the nutcases?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Israel nuking Lebanon would send a clear message.

Well, it would take care of the problem. Israel would be contaminated by radiation, so no more problem. No one would want to live there.

Or is radiation a myth like global warming?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Rumor

Explain.

"Hyperbolorific" is Kevin's way of saying, "I can't come up with anything intelligent to say but I feel compelled to post something." Precisely the reason I have him on ignore. What would I have gained by wasting time and bandwidth reading that comment? You miss nothing by not reading his posts in a thread.

[Y3a]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

You advocate killing thousands if not millions of innocents. Killing without prejudice.


And you call THEM the nutcases?

"innocents" ??? Explain how their actions even MAKE THEM innocent.

They invited terrorists into their country OFFICIALLY, and they protect and ruin the country. The fighting methods of the cowards has already been documented. They want Israel gone, and you are OK with that? They are trying to drum up support to do just that. The big difference is that in recent history, the Muslim world has not contributed to the peaceful world but instead has exported violence all over, in their conquest to make the world a Muslim craphole.

The 'solutions' and methods that cowards and liberals suggest all include talk, backing down , and GIVING UP SOMETHING. The way to stop the agression is to hammer them on several fronts, and forget 'public opinion' as it serves no purpose.

[vmarks]

The difference between Israel and its attackers is simple and clear:

When Israel kills civilians, it considers it a failure.

When Israel's attackers kill civilians, they consider it a success.


And on a separate thought, here's something that bothers me:
When Danish cartoonists made illustrations of Mohammed, it was blasphemy worthy of riots, destruction of embassises and death.

When a group calls itself the Party of Allah and fires rockets with the intention of killing innocents, instead of blasphemers, they're heroes?

[Y3a]

With Muslims, being a coward, and a liar is considered good traits.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by vmarks

The difference between Israel and its attackers is simple and clear:

When Israel kills civilians, it considers it a failure.

Israel does not consider killing civilians a failure. That's what they SAY because that's what they have to say but look at this and tell me Israel is going after military targets only.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

Israel does not consider killing civilians a failure. That's what they SAY because that's what they have to say but look at this and tell me Israel is going after military targets only.

Looks like some Hezbollah buildings got crushed.

[lpkmckenna]

Amazing how those Israeli bombs sucked all the color out of the buildings.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Y3a

"innocents" ??? Explain how their actions even MAKE THEM innocent.

They invited terrorists into their country OFFICIALLY, and they protect and ruin the country. The fighting methods of the cowards has already been documented. They want Israel gone, and you are OK with that? They are trying to drum up support to do just that. The big difference is that in recent history, the Muslim world has not contributed to the peaceful world but instead has exported violence all over, in their conquest to make the world a Muslim craphole.

The 'solutions' and methods that cowards and liberals suggest all include talk, backing down , and GIVING UP SOMETHING. The way to stop the agression is to hammer them on several fronts, and forget 'public opinion' as it serves no purpose.

Its called guerilla warfare. You may call it cowardly, but you'd be standing in one of britain's colonies if it weren't for it.

Ok, someone takes you land, abuses your people, and slaughters you at will, who the hell are you going to turn to? The guys with the guns would be the logical answer. Moreover, women and children, and anyone NOT fighting, IS an innocent. Or would you like to put them into camps and slaughter them because they're "evil"?

No, the rest of the world has been playing in the middle east for ages. Certain extremists didn't like this much and took the fight to our doorstep. I know you'd love to paint every muslim a terrorist but thats hardly the case. If it weren't for politics and oil we would never be there in the first place, and they'd just be a bunch of whackos fighting over dirt.

First of all, it isn't ours to give or take. Not our land. More importantly your words reek of hypocrisy born of ignorance. You want to kill muslims with WMDs, funny I seem to recall that being justification for a recent war.

Essentially the problem is this: You mentality and tactics are becoming more and more like that of a terrorist. You think you enemies are evil, you think they need to be exterminated, and you will go to any length to do so. Now tell me how this is any different than any terrorist?

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Looks like some Hezbollah buildings got crushed.

Wouldn't it be great if police officers adopted this idea?

"Sorry about killing you entire family sir, but I got the guy stealing your wife's purse"

Killing and violence is always fun when its a million miles away.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

Wouldn't it be great if police officers adopted this idea?

Silly argument, this is war, not a police action. The object of war is to take out the enemy.

[Y3a]

those areas which are now gone were where Hezzbullies had the rocket launchers. You know, between the playground and the hospital where the Muslims were using kids and women as shields as most brave Muslim fighters do.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Silly argument, this is war, not a police action. The object of war is to take out the enemy.

No, the object of war is not to take out the enemy. Also, by tradition, there are rules to war and always have been. Killing without discretion or respect for human life seems to be what the US has fought against. You seem to just be interested in killing.

I could go on and on but you're just as bad as any extremist. You've got the moral values of a rock and nothing will change that.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Y3a

those areas which are now gone were where Hezzbullies had the rocket launchers. You know, between the playground and the hospital where the Muslims were using kids and women as shields as most brave Muslim fighters do.

So kill the soldiers, kill the women, kill the children. Hey, no people no problem right?

[Y3a]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

No, the object of war is not to take out the enemy.

So, do you think it's to appease them, give them some land, sign a piece of paper? SURE IT'S TO DESTROY THEM! DUH! You kill as many of them, destroy as much of thir country as you can UNTIL they surrender.

Originally Posted by invisibleX

Also, by tradition, there are rules to war and always have been. Killing without discretion or respect for human life seems to be what the US has fought against.

"RULES OF WAR" LOL And where do the beheadings fit in? Where does the using your own countrymen as shields? Where is the un-uniformed Hezzbullie and the rocket launcher parked next to the UN observers fit in?

Originally Posted by invisibleX

I could go on and on but you're just as bad as any extremist. You've got the moral values of a rock and nothing will change that.

name calling.........VERY BAD! I guess that is to be your final point then?

I feel sorry for you that you don't know history, and can't see the obvious, but try and play these idealistic mind-games with words and try to justify your touchy-feely opinions.

[Demonhood]

try to keep the bloodlust to a minimum people.

[Y3a]

Yes Sir!

[invisibleX]

So, do you think it's to appease them, give them some land, sign a piece of paper? SURE IT'S TO DESTROY THEM! DUH! You kill as many of them, destroy as much of thir country as you can UNTIL they surrender.

So you're saying the point of war is to kill people? Here I am thinking the goal of war is peace. The idea being you fight to end the war. Extremists however fight in order to eradicate their enemy.

"RULES OF WAR" LOL And where do the beheadings fit in? Where does the using your own countrymen as shields? Where is the un-uniformed Hezzbullie and the rocket launcher parked next to the UN observers fit in?

Nazi germany slaughtered innocent jews. Are you saying those actions gave the Allies the right to do the same thing (not saying they did)? One war-crime deserves another? You abuse our PoWs, we abuse yours. You use bio weapons, we use bio weapons. Tell me, exactly when does the escalation of inhumanity end? When there isn't anyone left to kill? Oh I forgot, thats why we fight wars!

name calling.........VERY BAD! I guess that is to be your final point then?

I feel sorry for you that you don't know history, and can't see the obvious, but try and play these idealistic mind-games with words and try to justify your touchy-feely opinions.

What name exactly did I call him? I compared his morals to an object (which obviously has no morals).

You feel sorry for me? You're advocating the very crimes your country has condemned in the past. Demonhood hit the nail on the head: bloodlust. Valuing human life makes me touchy-feely? I guess it does. Idealistic? No, not really. Nothing I've said can't be backed up with historical examples. I see no reason why war can't be made without resorting to barbarianism.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Y3a

those areas which are now gone were where Hezzbullies had the rocket launchers.

Prove it because that sounds like utter nonsense to me. The rocket launchers don't work inside cities.

I haven't seen a single video of a precision missile going into a rocket launcher in Lebanon. Not one.

Hezbollah is astounded themselves. Last night one of their representatives was on TV saying the reason they fired more rockets into Israel yesterday than ever before was because Israel is bombing the cities when the rocket launchers are in open fields.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

Hezbollah is astounded themselves.

Let them be astounded. Astounded terrorists is good.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by invisibleX

Here I am thinking the goal of war is peace.

Let me know when Hezbollah wants peace. Until then, bombs away.

[ebuddy]

Peace cannot be done. Sanctions have done nothing. Idle threats have done nothing. Talks have done nothing. Giving up land has helped nothing. This is the core of the situation, period. When the radical elements of Islam have driven the last Israeli into the sea, they will again turn on one another.

There cannot be peace in the Middle East unless the moderate masses (supposedly vastly outnumbering the extremists) take the issue into their own hands. Drain the resources from, imprison, capture, kill, and eliminate the extremists from the inside-out. The UN can't, the US and the British can't, the French, Russians, and Chinese and the vast majority of moderates won't even try. This leaves the Israeli and they must if they are to exist on their tiny sliver of this planet.

Y'all can argue about whether or not the Israeli belongs there, the fact is they are there. This will not change. There are many who will not accept this fact and they will put you in harm's way, wherever you are to ensure the success of their agenda. They are not hiding who they are and what they want. They are now and always have been very clear about their intention to anyone listening.

There can be no humanitarianism, no aid, no progress, no prosperity, no freedom, no sovereignty, no civilians, no ceasefire, no safe children or loved ones, and no peace. None of these can exist nor are they even worth talking about until each and every last of these extremists have been erased from the earth.

Impossible? Perhaps, but in the meantime you'll please excuse the dust of those working for a better future in the Middle East. After all, your ideas obviously didn't work.