[Rumor]

Colleges: Drinking age 'not working' -- baltimoresun.com

I agree with this. People are going to drink regardless of the legalities involved. Also, I have always found it odd that you can go fight and die for your country, but cannot have a drink at a bar?

[Dakar the Fourth]

I read about this. I thought about posting it here, but what I gathered from a quick glance is this isn't something that's even being considered.

This is as much a pipe dream as legal pot.

[boy8cookie]

People aren't obeying the law, so the law should obey the people ? I don't agree with that logic, but I do agree with this notion .

[Rumor]

Currently, 18 - 20 is a pseudo adult age. You can vote, drive, and join the military, but cannot buy or legally drink alcohol. If 18 is going to be the recognized age for adulthood, then it shouldn't be striped of a perk. Perhaps the age for voting and joining the military should be raised to 21 to properly reflect attaining adulthood.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by boy8cookie 

People aren't obeying the law, so the law should obey the people ?

Yes. Government exists to serve the people, not vice versa. Also on a more practical note, if a law is routinely disregarded, it has the effect of weakening the power of all laws and promotes a general culture of lawlessness.

[cgc]

Sure, lower the drinking age to 18 but also aise the driving age to 18...

[Helmling]

I'm for that. Let's have one legal standard for adulthood in this country.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

I'm for that. Let's have one legal standard for adulthood in this country.

Me too.

[Randman]

We have enough stupidity without lowering the bar further.

[vmarks]

The drinking age is 21 because federal highway funds were used as a threat if States didn't comply and raise it. Politicians act quickly and decisively when they see the money being taken away.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

The drinking age is 21 because federal highway funds were used as a threat if States didn't comply and raise it. Politicians act quickly and decisively when they see the money being taken away.

Yep, same with seatbelt laws. At the surface, I'd be in favor of lowering the drinking age to match that which you're also able to do such as; sign a legal-binding contract, give your life for your country, vote, etc... The only information I'd like to see before hand are some statistics on drinking and driving. If there's the possibility of doubling the current problem, I may have to oppose it on the grounds that it's too late to consider going back to 18 for booze. I'm about 80% for.

[Monique]

What will it change?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Monique 

What will it change?

More drunk teens driving

[Dakar the Fourth]

I like the idea of not making 3/4ths of a college campus a roving band of criminals, but by the same token, so long as Americans treat drinking alcohol as an all or nothing affair (both as far as consumption and age are concerned) this won't solve all our problems.

[Maflynn]

All in all, I cannot see the logic to determine that by lowering the drinking age binge drinking will decrease. People who are underage and want to drink now, do so fairly easily. All you're doing is making them legal their behavior will not suddenly change because they can legally drink

[nonhuman]

I think we all know the real solution here: a constitutional amendment to outlaw all alcohol. The only reason we have an alcohol problem at all in this country is liberal activist judges legislating from the bench!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

More drunk teens driving

Because right now the law is preventing teens from drinking. And obviously the very few who refrain from drinking just because it's illegal are the ones most likely to hop right into their car and crash into a mom pushing a stroller.

Somehow these statements don't seem likely to be true to me.

[stevesnj]

Well the problem also is allowing teens to buy alcohol. Age limits affect them more from buying at a liquor store and being served at a bar. Give 18 year olds the option to buy at 18, some whom are still in high school, will become suppliers to their underage friends, more kids showing up drunk in school, its out of control now, and being a survivor of a drunk driving incident, and being a teacher, I will fight this if somehow it come to consideration at the state level. These college professors should be ashamed of themselves!!

[Chuckit]

Those kids you're worrying about drinking? They already are. Nobody I know had any great trouble getting booze when they were underage. So basically, you're worrying that also allowing the most responsible teens to drink will increase the amount of daytime drunkenness and DUI. That's just a little peculiar to me.

If you seriously want to fight drunk driving, get alcohol banned for all adults. Trying to maintain the status quo isn't fighting drunk driving, and it's just weird that some adults can drink and others can't.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

These college professors should be ashamed of themselves!!

Give me a break.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Those kids you're worrying about drinking? They already are. Nobody I know had any great trouble getting booze when they were underage.

agreed but Stevesnj point of having 18 years buy booze for younger kids is valid. It will increase the consumption among younger teenagers. 18 year olds have zero problem buying booze now so the change will not decrease binge drinking.

[amazing]

Anything like lowering the drinking age has got to be accompanied by a correspondingly strong and consistent education push--which we should have, in any case. Just like there should be a required class about all this for all incoming college freshman (and a required class at some point/age-level in H-Sch as well.)

[Railroader]

I am not opposed to lowering the drinking age to 18, but I wish the legal limit for driving would also be lowered to half of what it is, and fines/penalties doubled for DUIs.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

All in all, I cannot see the logic to determine that by lowering the drinking age binge drinking will decrease. People who are underage and want to drink now, do so fairly easily. All you're doing is making them legal their behavior will not suddenly change because they can legally drink

Yeah I agree. As ridiculous as I think it is to have 21 the drinking age, I think it's pretty clear that 1) lowering it back to 18 wouldn't reduce binge drinking or drunk driving and 2) raising it actually did reduce drunk driving and other problems associated with drinking.

Of course, there are lots of stupid laws that could be passed that would do all kinds of good things - that doesn't mean we should.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

More drunk teens driving

Really? You think so? I'm thinking if 19-20 year olds are drinking in actual bars and clubs then they're less likely to drive drunk than if they're drinking from house parties, parties in deserts, barns, fields, or wherever kids go to do their dirty deeds. Bartenders and such are told to watch out for people attempting to drive drunk.

I certainly don't think lowering the drinking age will actually lead to more drinking. Anyone who thinks it's possible for college kids to drink more is being naive.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Currently, 18 - 20 is a pseudo adult age. You can vote, drive, and join the military, but cannot buy or legally drink alcohol. If 18 is going to be the recognized age for adulthood, then it shouldn't be striped of a perk. Perhaps the age for voting and joining the military should be raised to 21 to properly reflect attaining adulthood.

Agreed. If you're not mature enough to drink alcohol, you can't possibly be mature enough to decide who you want to represent you in the government or to be sent into combat.

Age of voting, joining the military and drinking should be aligned.

If anything, I think people should be learning to drink *before* they learn to drive, not after.

[stevesnj]

It's stunning to me those of you that think if they drop the age to 18 there won't be a change in teen drinking. Either you are naive, bad parents or both. Mostly just not living in reality is most likely the case. Anyway this won't happen. And yes these professors should be ashamed of themselves.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

It's stunning to me those of you that think if they drop the age to 18 there won't be a change in teen drinking. Either you are naive, bad parents or both. Mostly just not living in reality is most likely the case. Anyway this won't happen. And yes these professors should be ashamed of themselves.

Seriously? Do you remember high school? I'm really not sure there's any room for increase in teenage drinking before or after the age of 18.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

I certainly don't think lowering the drinking age will actually lead to more drinking. Anyone who thinks it's possible for college kids to drink more is being naive.

I don't see how you can believe the law is having zero effect. I think everyone agrees that the law is having something less than 100% effect - probably very significantly less than 100%. But I'm sure it's having some deterrence effect.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Seriously? Do you remember high school? I'm really not sure there's any room for increase in teenage drinking before or after the age of 18.

So it should be made easier? That makes sense. So there should be no age limit...just dispense of an age limit altogether then.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

It's stunning to me those of you that think if they drop the age to 18 there won't be a change in teen drinking. Either you are naive, bad parents or both. Mostly just not living in reality is most likely the case. Anyway this won't happen. And yes these professors should be ashamed of themselves.

It's stunning to *me* that you think adults between 18 and 21 can't drink.

If the age is lowered, it's more likely that they'll be drinking in controlled environments rather than being forced to hide their activities. Alternatively, maybe your solution to under aged drinking is to *raise* the drinking age?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

So it should be made easier? That makes sense. So there should be no age limit...just dispense of an age limit altogether then.

Strawman. No one is saying get rid of it, just lower it to a more reasonable age.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

So it should be made easier? That makes sense. So there should be no age limit...just dispense of an age limit altogether then.

My point is that it won't be making it easier.

The law is fairly pointless and completely arbitrary. Why are we wasting our time and resources enforcing a law that a) does no good, and that b) a sizable portion of the population think should be gotten rid of?

Do I think it's a good idea for young teens to drink? No. I, personally, didn't start drinking until I was 16 or so. And though I drank a fair amount even then, I think I managed to handle myself responsibly and never drove drunk.

On the other hand a friend of mine from high school was one of those guys who was absolutely and completely against drugs and alcohol. He wouldn't touch the stuff, preached against them, and participated in a number of programs to help keep kids off them. What happened to him? He went to college, got into drugs and alcohol, and flunked out of school.

The college I went to was very liberal in their approach to drinking. They basically said that as long as you were on school property and didn't actually hurt anyone or damage anything you wouldn't get in trouble for drinking. What was the result of this? A huge number of binge drinkers and alcoholics? Of course not. The result of this was that people drank, had fun, and, for the most part were responsible. If you had too much to drink, or your friend did you weren't afraid to ask for help. You could pick up a phone, call campus security, and they would give you a ride to the hospital or do whatever else was necessary. Freedom, in other words, bred responsibility.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

The college I went to was very liberal in their approach to drinking. They basically said that as long as you were on school property and didn't actually hurt anyone or damage anything you wouldn't get in trouble for drinking. What was the result of this? A huge number of binge drinkers and alcoholics? Of course not. The result of this was that people drank, had fun, and, for the most part were responsible. If you had too much to drink, or your friend did you weren't afraid to ask for help. You could pick up a phone, call campus security, and they would give you a ride to the hospital or do whatever else was necessary. Freedom, in other words, bred responsibility.

Exactly. The harder you try to stop people from doing something they want to do, the harder they're going to work to find ways to do it and you end up with far less control over what they're doing.

@stevesnj
Why do we need a nanny state to control how adults drink?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

It's stunning to *me* that you think adults between 18 and 21 can't drink.

If the age is lowered, it's more likely that they'll be drinking in controlled environments rather than being forced to hide their activities. Alternatively, maybe your solution to under aged drinking is to *raise* the drinking age?

I never said i don't think they don't drink I am saying they will drink more and be more apt to drive in cars. The age limit (21) is a 'deterrent' only. Lowering the deterrent is not good at all.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

@stevesnj
Why do we need a nanny state to control how adults drink?

So your for no drinking age? Thats silly

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

I never said i don't think they don't drink I am saying they will drink more and be more apt to drive in cars. The age limit (21) is a 'deterrent' only. Lowering the deterrent is not good at all.

Do you have any evidence for this, or is it just a gut feeling? My gut feeling is that if we lowered the drinking age to 18 would would, in the short term, see an increase in teenage drinking and possibly even an increase in drunk driving and even alcohol related death. However in the long term I think that the incidence of these things would stabilize at an even lower level than they're at today.

So your for no drinking age? Thats silly

Only if you're for considering all people adults regardless of age...

[vmarks]

Is it a deterrent?
Is it a successful deterrent?

Is it also causing disrespect for the law in general? What damage does that do?

I've heard tell of places in this country where tradition was, if you could see above the bar, you could be served. Is that the right answer? Perhaps, perhaps not - it should be up to the state government where that took place, as per the US Constitution.

[lpkmckenna]

You can drive a potentially lethal machine at 16, but can't consume alcohol until 21? Only stupid people think that makes sense.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

I never said i don't think they don't drink I am saying they will drink more and be more apt to drive in cars. The age limit (21) is a 'deterrent' only. Lowering the deterrent is not good at all.

Sorry, let me rephrase:
It's stunning to *me* that you think adults between 18 and 21, who are allowed to have a say in the direction of the county and allowed to carry weapons and allowed to serve in combat, can't drink alcohol responsibly.

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

So your for no drinking age? Thats silly

Again, no one is saying no drinking age. It's interesting that you can only argue against mythical people saying "no drinking age!" and can't argue against people who are saying "make the age consistent with other measures of adulthood, such as voting or enlisting in the army".

Why do we need a nanny state to control how adults, between the age of 18 and 21, drink?

[stevesnj]

I actually think Adults age 18 should be allowed to drink!! How about that! Im saying that in the US Teens wont be able to handle it. Thus In my opinion reducing the age to 18 is not a good idea. Hell 18 year olds can be executed, go to the Army, Vote etc. but from the current experience and witness to bad parenting and 18 year olds in high schools driving like maniacs...its more of a fear of the 'unknown' I think I am worried about.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by cgc 

Sure, lower the drinking age to 18 but also aise the driving age to 18...

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I am not opposed to lowering the drinking age to 18, but I wish the legal limit for driving would also be lowered to half of what it is, and fines/penalties doubled for DUIs.

Both great ideas.

18 years old get wasted now, and the law forces them to be sneaky about it. I'd say that getting drunk legally will reduce the amount of drunk driving because if mom and dad are home you have to drive somewhere to get drunk, and that place can't be a bar from which you can call a taxi home.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

I actually think Adults age 18 should be allowed to drink!! How about that! Im saying that in the US Teens wont be able to handle it. Thus In my opinion reducing the age to 18 is not a good idea. Hell 18 year olds can be executed, go to the Army, Vote etc. but from the current experience and witness to bad parenting and 18 year olds in high schools driving like maniacs...its more of a fear of the 'unknown' I think I am worried about.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. You say that irresponsibility and bad parenting make restrictive laws necessary. I say that restrictive laws encourage irresponsibility and lead therefore to bad parenting.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

I actually think Adults age 18 should be allowed to drink!! How about that! Im saying that in the US Teens wont be able to handle it. Thus In my opinion reducing the age to 18 is not a good idea. Hell 18 year olds can be executed, go to the Army, Vote etc. but from the current experience and witness to bad parenting and 18 year olds in high schools driving like maniacs...its more of a fear of the 'unknown' I think I am worried about.

So, you're worried that American adults, aged 18-21, might not be able to drink responsibly based upon evidence of American adults, aged 18-21, not drinking responsibly? A very reasonable concern. Do you have a solution?

What if restricting the minimum drinking age to 21 is exactly what is *causing irresponsible drinking*? What are the causes of irresponsible drinking? Bad parenting? Sure, to some degree, but that affects all of our other measures of adulthood - how responsible they will be when they drive or when they're taking orders in a war-zone. Perhaps those ages should be raised to 21 as well, to accommodate bad parenting?

But, what if it's also the environment in which they're drinking? In an environment controlled by law, drinkers are far less likely to get into trouble. In unregulated environments, the kinds of places where under-aged drinkers are likely to end up, there is no control.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Currently, 18 - 20 is a pseudo adult age. You can vote, drive, and join the military, but cannot buy or legally drink alcohol. If 18 is going to be the recognized age for adulthood, then it shouldn't be striped of a perk. Perhaps the age for voting and joining the military should be raised to 21 to properly reflect attaining adulthood.

If you aren't mature enough to make the decision to drink, how are mature enough to vote?

FDR lowered the draft age to 18 from 21. In response to pressure during the Vietnam war the 26th amendment was passed. Raise every thing back to 21.

[Eug]

The drinking age where I went to university (Montreal) is 18.
The drinking age where I live now (Toronto) is 19.

P.S. My university and MIT used to have a conference every year, and we would invade the MIT dorms as billets. We were amused to see 20 year olds hiding in their rooms sneaking sips of beer, away from watchful eyes. We suggested having the conference in Montreal instead where we could all just meet at the bar.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

But, what if it's also the environment in which they're drinking? In an environment controlled by law, drinkers are far less likely to get into trouble. In unregulated environments, the kinds of places where under-aged drinkers are likely to end up, there is no control.

There was plenty of binge drinking at my university. In fact, my dorm was sponsored by Labatt. Seriously. We used to get beer at wholesale prices from them. So I'm not sure that legal drinking really helped encourage "responsible" drinking. OTOH, it seems to me that the amount of problem drinking probably wasn't significantly worse than US college dorms either.

[OreoCookie]

I think it's better if people start drinking while under parental supervision. Hence there are more extremes, e. g. in High School: people that don't drink at all or people who drink way too much.

When I entered university, of course, I partied more than I do now, but I didn't feel the need to drink irresponsibly anymore (doesn't mean I didn't get wasted on occasion). I don't remember seeing anything similar to what I've seen in Ocean City during Spring Break.

US laws in this respect are hypocritical: everybody knows that most people start drinking when they enter college or university (`There's a time and a place for that: college!'), but still, it's `against the law.'

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Raise every thing back to 21.

Including driving and voting? Whatever for?

I think it's better if people start drinking while under parental supervision.

Unvarnished truth.

[Chongo]

The draft age was 21 until FDR lowered it during WWII

[Eug]

I think it's better if people start having sex while under parental supervision.

[Snow-i]

crazy idea: 18-21 drinking permit.

Clear record and limitations put on the amount you can drink legally from age 18-21. Maybe even set a BAC that you must be below at all times.....say .15 or something like that. Kind of like a provisional license.

You must present it along with your license at a bar or liquor store. And still must remain below .02 when driving. .07 or .08 is the usual limit for adults driving now....set a strict no tolerance for kids and set harsh penalties for violating this. Basically send the message that its ok to drink responsibly, but if you're driving u'd better not touch the booze.