[oscar]

No final spoken statment, but he wrote a poem from 1875 called "Invictus":
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud,
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

-- William Ernest Henley

What are your feelings on this?

[Xeo]

How did he go? Did he get to choose? Where did it happen? (sorry, I didn't keep up much on it)

Good riddence, I say. Who does that?

[l'ignorante]

It's always a shame for a poet or any literator to have your work quoted by a monster.

[Xeo]

Originally posted by l'ignorante:
<STRONG>It's always a shame for a poet or any literator to have your work quoted by a monster.</STRONG>

You callin' oscar a monster???

J/K I know what you meant.

[voodoo]

The world is full of monsters. But most of them seem to live in the US. Why? Any thoughts?

[l'ignorante]

Originally posted by voodoo:
<STRONG>The world is full of monsters. But most of them seem to live in the US. Why? Any thoughts? </STRONG>

Come on! Voodoo, check your history book one more time please.

[scaught]

i think they should have bricked him into a 4x4x4 foot cell for the rest of his life and threw him some scraps of food occasionally. no justice has been served. the dead are still dead. he got what he wanted. he felt no remorse for his deeds. hes a martyr for all the militia people. we havent seen the end of this yet.

[Timo]

I'm with scaught. This whole thing, including the media converage, doesn't seem to be justice. I wonder about the people who think watching will bring them closure -- of course, I hope it will, but fear it will not. Not at all.

Timo

[opallaser]

As i posted in another thread. He doesn't care about dying. It makes him a hero for his cause.

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by Timo:
<STRONG>I wonder about the people who think watching will bring them closure -- of course, I hope it will, but fear it will not. Not at all.</STRONG>

I agree. I don't see how it could. I think I'd feel it would bring me down to his level--to take comfort or pleasure in his death would be no better than him taking pleasure in all the destruction he caused. Of course you never know until you're in that position yourself, and I hope I never am.

[voodoo]

OK, l'ignorante, I admit I've not done any background checking on my claim. However, the US popped first in my mind when I thought of mass-murderers.

They do get a lot of attention in the US, as you know.

Also, I think the potential mass-murderes in the US know this and go on a killing spree, confident in the knowledge that they will be famous.

Finally, I would like to point out that the USA is the only country in the western hemisphere that allows capital punishment.

And despite that, someone is killed every minute in New York alone. And that is a definite fact!

[maxelson]

Sounds to me like a certain terrorist has (had) a Christ complex. Martyrdom was what he wanted. In the words of T. Waits, "Come down off the cross- we can use the wood." Best possible thing to happen here is for his name to fade into obscurity as quickly as possible. Don't forget the event. Just don't give him or his methods any credence. This is even better punishment that the needle.
Clearly, he never read Civil Disobedience.

[l'ignorante]

Originally posted by voodoo:
<STRONG>

And despite that, someone is killed every minute in New York alone. And that is a definite fact!</STRONG>

That makes 1440 killed every day in NY ? Almost half a million every year?
Are you sure about that?[/LIST]

[Timo]

Yeah, I just did the math too. New York City empty in a little over fifteen years!

Which is good. I need to get a bigger apartment.


maxelson: some of the rest of us haven't read Civil Disobedience (Thoreau, right?) either. Care to tell us about it? (non-sarcastic request)


Timo

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by voodoo:
<STRONG>OK, l'ignorante, I admit I've not done any background checking on my claim. However, the US popped first in my mind when I thought of mass-murderers.

They do get a lot of attention in the US, as you know.

Also, I think the potential mass-murderes in the US know this and go on a killing spree, confident in the knowledge that they will be famous.

Finally, I would like to point out that the USA is the only country in the western hemisphere that allows capital punishment.

And despite that, someone is killed every minute in New York alone. And that is a definite fact!</STRONG>

L'Ignorante is right. I think you need to check your facts a little. I don't know that the U.S. has a higher percentage of mass murderers than other countries. To the best of my knowledge, The now defunct McViegh is the single biggest mass murderer in U.S. history. Now look at the mass murders that have taken place in Cambodia, Laos, East Africa, Indonesia, Bosnia, and of course, the holocost and the Russian extermination of Jews and other undesirables. So, tell me, why do you think of the U.S. when it comes to mass murders?

[10sfan]

What McVeigh did was absolutely unforgiveable, and I do not support him in any manner. However, the death penalty is wrong, plain and simple. I don't normally get political on these boards, but I feel strongly about this.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
<STRONG>
L'Ignorante is right. I think you need to check your facts a little. I don't know that the U.S. has a higher percentage of mass murderers than other countries. To the best of my knowledge, The now defunct McViegh is the single biggest mass murderer in U.S. history. Now look at the mass murders that have taken place in Cambodia, Laos, East Africa, Indonesia, Bosnia, and of course, the holocost and the Russian extermination of Jews and other undesirables. So, tell me, why do you think of the U.S. when it comes to mass murders?</STRONG>

HEY! Wake up!!! How can you compare the genocides and systematic exterminations of people in the countries you mentioned??? Most of these countries are at WAR!

Was your Timothy at war?? Or any other mass-murderer in the US, in last century? NO,FOOL! He was just insane. Or something.

There is a good reason I think of the US when I think of murders. At least one good reason every minute, young man!

[BRussell]

Originally posted by l'ignorante:
<STRONG>That makes 1440 killed every day in NY ? Almost half a million every year?
Are you sure about that?</STRONG>

There are about 15,000 homicides every year in the US. It's dropped almost in half in the last 10 years, but still about 10 times higher than most of our peer countries.

That's less than 1 every 30 minutes in the entire country. That's no more than a couple every 24 hours in New York, rather than one per minute. So they've got plenty of time.

[billybob]

What Tim did to Oklahoma city was a terrible thing. Giving him the death penalty was not punishment to him. In his eyes, he died a hero.

It's too bad he had to waste his life by doing this. He was an extremely intelligent individual and could have a made a real difference.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by BRussell:
<STRONG>There are about 15,000 homicides every year in the US. It's dropped almost in half in the last 10 years, but still about 10 times higher than most of our peer countries.

That's less than 1 every 30 minutes in the entire country. That's no more than a couple every 24 hours in New York, rather than one per minute. So they've got plenty of time. </STRONG>

Sorry, pardon everyone, that was supposed to be 2000+ a year. More than five murders each day. Or about 13% of the national avarage.

But, my point still stands!

And makes me think of the United States of America when I think of mass-murders. OK?

Sheesh!

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: voodoo ]

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by voodoo:
<STRONG>

HEY! Wake up!!! How can you compare the genocides and systematic exterminations of people in the countries you mentioned??? Most of these countries are at WAR!

Was your Timothy at war?? Or any other mass-murderer in the US, in last century? NO,FOOL! He was just insane. Or something.

There is a good reason I think of the US when I think of murders. At least one good reason every minute, young man!</STRONG>

What is genocide, but mass murder? You seem to be the one that doesn't know what constitutes mass murder. You think because we have a high murder rate, that it is because of mass murderers? Most of those are individual killings, not large groups of people getting killed at once, by one individual or group of individuals.

And if NYC has a murder rate that is 10 times the national average, which it might, but I don't think it does, might that have anything to do with the fact that most U.S. cities don't have a population of 9 or 10 million people? Of course, the higher your population, the more crime you can expect. I would whole heartedly hope (well, not hope, but expect) that NYC would have a higher murder/ crime rate than my little city of 20,000 people.

And do not call me 'young man'. I am not one of these little kids. Chances are, I have a lot more first hand experience with this topic than you. Don't you ****ing talk down to me.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by Timo:
<STRONG>Yeah, I just did the math too. New York City empty in a little over fifteen years!

Which is good. I need to get a bigger apartment.


maxelson: some of the rest of us haven't read Civil Disobedience (Thoreau, right?) either. Care to tell us about it? (non-sarcastic request)


Timo</STRONG>

Absolutely. I LOVE Thoreau. He is one of those writers people- particularly students- start off struggling through. Somewhere along the line, his ideas come crashing and and make perfect sense. If you have not read Thoreau, I HIGHLY recommend that you start.
It's a short read: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Literatu...obedience.html
Among other things, Thoreau thought that if one's Government was guilty of perpetrating injustice and "it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn.'"
Thoreau, however, advocated strictly non violent protest.
Thoureau would applaud a person's protests against a government, but he would have horrified beyond belief at this guy's actions. Under no circumstances should we harm others in our quest for justice.

[deedar]

The death penalty is pathetic and barbaric - period. Fresh on the heels of this execution, our president travels to Europe and brings with him, not only this grim remider of our primitive sense of justice, but also missle defense initiatives, pulling out of the Kyoto treaty, reductions in participation in the Balkans, distain for the United Nations, and ..... the list goes on. As an American, I am both disgusted and embarrased.

[gwrjr33]

Originally posted by deedar:

<STRONG>The death penalty is pathetic and barbaric - period.</STRONG>

Perhaps your mind isn't as simple as your remarks here make you seem. Interesting how all that disgusts and embarrasses you puts you neatly into a political category and the President just as neatly into another category opposite from you.

I am also opposed to the death penalty but I'm embarrassed by the "holier-than-thou" attitude of those who share my perspective on this matter. Until you are prepared to respond to those who support capital punishment as though they are very bit as human and compassionate as you, you will never even begin to persuade them to forsake a recourse to executions.

[oranjdisc]

Originally posted by deedar:
<STRONG>The death penalty is pathetic and barbaric - period. Fresh on the heels of this execution, our president travels to Europe and brings with him, not only this grim remider of our primitive sense of justice, but also missle defense initiatives, pulling out of the Kyoto treaty, reductions in participation in the Balkans, distain for the United Nations, and ..... the list goes on. As an American, I am both disgusted and embarrased.</STRONG>

Glad to see someone else who shares my exact opinion. While I think the McVeigh execution and George W's presidency aren't exactly related, or discussed in the same paragraph, both viewpoints are spot on. I'm totally embarassed as well that George W ignores all the scientific studies that have been conducted on global warming, and is instead devoting money to pie in the sky cold war nonsense like missle defense systems.

It's crap politics. Bush is saying we need "more research." In other words, he wants research that has an answer he wants, but there simply isn't one. It's pigheaded and shortsighted to say that they won't enact any environmental policy that'll "hurt businesses and the economy." Oh puhhhleazze. It's corporate waste and abuse that got us in this mess.

As for the missle defense system, if someone (or nation) attacks the US, it isn't going to be from the sky, but on the ground. Think Tokyo, and the subway attack. That's the type of subversive **** that'll surely come around again.

[Not_Dark_Yet]

Fresh on the heels of this execution, our president travels to Europe and brings with him, not only this grim remider of our primitive sense of justice, but also missle defense initiatives, pulling out of the Kyoto treaty, reductions in participation in the Balkans, distain for the United Nations, and ..... the list goes on.

And this will explain then why he will find himself confronted with demonstrators wherever he goes. He ain't very popular over here in Europe. Keep watching your TeeVees.

Maybe you guys "elected" the wrong man?

[maxelson]

Back OT-
At 33, I still have not solidified my opinion of the Death Penalty. I have an absolutely acute sense of justice. Very few things smoke me more than when someone does not get what is coming to them. I also hate hypocrisy (you can see where I'm going with that one). I do not care for vengeance at all, but I can certainly sypmathize with those who are justified in having those feelings. I do not know enough in the way of statistics to know whether or not it is a deterrent (as with any other topic, these numbers can be manipulated to mean almost anything) to violent crime.
In this case, I thought- yea. He's getting what's coming to him. After it was over and I had read the account, I thought- hmmm. WHo's getting the last word in here?
THis is just another one of those issues that is not as clear cut as we would like it to be.

[artman]

Originally posted by deedar:
<STRONG>The death penalty is pathetic and barbaric - period. Fresh on the heels of this execution, our president travels to Europe and brings with him, not only this grim remider of our primitive sense of justice, but also missle defense initiatives, pulling out of the Kyoto treaty, reductions in participation in the Balkans, distain for the United Nations, and ..... the list goes on. As an American, I am both disgusted and embarrased.</STRONG>

Seeing this image again made me disgusted and embarrased that anyone could plan, stage and get away with something like the bombing in this country....If there was anybody who deserved to die for an act like this it was him.



We have to see these images again to remind us what happened that day.

[Nonsuch]

I was reluctant to get into it in my previous post, but I too am opposed to capital punishment. After being on the fence for many years, I came to the conclusion that a society that gives in to motives of vengeance -- and the death penalty has no other rationale, its deterrent value having been proven to be nil -- is no better than the criminals on whom it passes judgment. I am not a theist by any means, but I don't believe it is for human beings to administer death as punishment; the state doesn't give you your life and so has no right to take it away.

[Nonsuch]

I was reluctant to get into it in my previous post, but I too am opposed to capital punishment. After being on the fence for many years, I came to the conclusion that a society that gives in to motives of vengeance -- and the death penalty has no other rationale, its deterrent value having been proven to be nil -- is no better than the criminals on whom it passes judgment. I am not a theist by any means, but I don't believe it is for human beings to administer death as punishment; the state doesn't give you your life and so has no right to take it away.

[gwrjr33]

Originally posted by oranjdisc:
<STRONG>
It's crap politics. </STRONG>

That's right so cut it out. This isn't about Kyoto or George Bush or missile defense or any other hobby horse you want to climb on. It's about the execution of someone who did a truly despicable act. It's a serious matter and you trivialize it with your nonsense rants about this administration. People have good reasons to feel the way they do about this. They feel justified in wanting this man's death. I may disagree with them but there is also something barbaric in using this situation to claim some kind of moral superiority over those who feel differently than I do.

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: gwrjr33 ]

[crazycylon]

The sentence must be carried out swiftly if it is to have any deterrent value. Being on death row for a number of years is no deterrent. The best thing about capital punishment is the offender does not get a chance to be a repeat offender.

McVeigh got his wish to die as a martyr. It remains to be seen if this will prove to be the catalyst for more domestic terrorism against Government institutions.

[lucylawless]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
<STRONG>
L'Ignorante is right. I think you need to check your facts a little. I don't know that the U.S. has a higher percentage of mass murderers than other countries. To the best of my knowledge, The now defunct McViegh is the single biggest mass murderer in U.S. history. Now look at the mass murders that have taken place in Cambodia, Laos, East Africa, Indonesia, Bosnia, and of course, the holocost and the Russian extermination of Jews and other undesirables. So, tell me, why do you think of the U.S. when it comes to mass murders?</STRONG>

There may not have been as many soldiers holding the guns, but I believe a higher percentage of Native Americans were murdered than Russians, Cambodians, Rwandans, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals.... On the other hand, most of them might have been killed before there was a United States...

Frankly, I don't care. I don't see why people get so worked up about death. Of all the things to worry about, death is absolutely the one thing that is universal, unavoidable. And then once it happens to me, I won't care anymore anyway. Because I can't. I'm dead. There's not a thing anyone can do about it, and I find arguing about it petty and meaningless. I don't expect anyone to agree with me about this, but that's the way I feel.

Hypocrisy on the other hand....
I mean, just because Stalin did it more recently, doesn't mean the US is any less to blame.......

[WDL]

I agree with the death penalty, but not for vengeance - for the protection
of society - it precludes the chance of the murderer repeating the act(s).

However, McVeigh should NOT have been executed - simply because it
will make him a hero/martyr in the minds of those warped to his persuasion.

Can you see the protesters in coming years - "Remember Waco - remember McVeigh."

It would have been far better to lock him away in isolation and forbid any contact
with the press. Just issue a statement once every ten years saying he's alive or the
alternative. This would have denied him the attention and status he never achieved
in life, now bestowed on him in death.

We have indeed not heard the last of McVeigh.

WDL

[simonjames]

For those against the death penalty for McVeigh - what is a suitable punishment? How does a "first world" country penalise those that commit an attrocity like his?

Generally I am against the death penalty but in this situation the idea of locking McVeigh up in a 5 star prison with a warm bed, TV and 3 meals per day would be a slap in the face of the victims families.

I can't believe he was acting alone

[opallaser]

How does a "first world" country penalise those that commit an attrocity like his?

How can a first world country murder a man for committing murder ? IT's ok for us to murder you becuase we are the law. Doesn't that scare you ?

[oscar]

To answer simon's posed question, I think they should have tied 20 lb's of C-4 to mcviegh, in the salt flats of Utah(?), and watch him get blown to pieces. The sicker of the group might want souvenirs.
=)

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by simonjames:
<STRONG>For those against the death penalty for McVeigh - what is a suitable punishment? How does a "first world" country penalise those that commit an attrocity like his?

Generally I am against the death penalty but in this situation the idea of locking McVeigh up in a 5 star prison with a warm bed, TV and 3 meals per day would be a slap in the face of the victims families.</STRONG>

What's a suitable punishment for, say, a serial rapist and murderer? For a killer for hire? I don't see how you can be "generally" against capital punishment yet reserve it for the people who commit ... what? Really heinous crimes? How high does the body count have to be before we levy the ultimate penalty? The answer is you can't quantify suffering/atrocity like that, and that's what's wrong with the "exception" approach.

My ideas for punishing McVeigh without killing him would have been:

1) Keep him alive, but on public display, in a transparent enclosure where he would be subject to the scrutiny, lamentation, and hatred of the general public for the rest of his life; or

2) Put him to work for the rest of his life on menial tasks that would nevertheless represent some token recompense for his victims and for society, say, assembling furniture for a new hospital or school, or planting trees for every one of his victims; possibly combine with (1).

<STRONG>I can't believe he was acting alone

</STRONG>

Me either. I doubt we'll ever know.

[l'ignorante]

I've been reading this thread with interest. Specially pleased to see so many of you opposing the death penalty. I always opposed but this case put a small crack in my strong believes. The idea that McVeigh will live on and undoubtly become a media-hype every so often when he publishes another book must be unacceptable to the families of the victims. A lot of people think he got what he wanted..but don't be so sure about that. If he had lived he would have gotten much more, to the horror of many.

[Bugs Bunny]

Specially pleased to see so many of you opposing the death penalty.

I think you'd change your mind if it was someone from your family blown to bits in that federal building. And my belief is, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, you take someone's life, your life will be taken. All you candy @sses should realize that some day, in the not to distant future, there will not be enough room to store all these psycho bastards. Jails, prisons, are all bursting at the seams. All the innocent life that's been terminated, all the wrong that has been done, how can you wish this piece of sh!t McVeigh should not die? I say, "I live with you in peace, you live with me in peace", if not, face the consequences.

[gwrjr33]

Originally posted by Bugs Bunny:
<STRONG>
All the innocent life that's been terminated, all the wrong that has been done, how can you wish this piece of sh!t McVeigh should not die?</STRONG>

If I was going to change my mind about the death penalty, turning him into some kind of celebrity/martyr was not the way to go about doing it. Besides he got off easy.

[MikeM32]

I think the way the whole thing was handled makes him out to be almost a celebrity, which just isn't right IMHO.

The media and press were all over this whole thing like white on rice. The puch-backs on the execution kept the whole thing going in the media longer and longer, gaining the whole thing more and more recognition.

I think the press should have been kept away until the execution, and a simple remark about it was all that was necessary. I'm not against freedom of the press but when things like this are all over the media like this, it's just making him out the (so-called) "Hero" he thought he was.

Just my .2�

Mike

[voodoo]

I think this discussion has raised many good points, especially the one by l'ignorante that the one of the major problems about these kind of guys is the fact they get publicity.

I propose people like Timothy McVeigh should be treated by the press in the same manner as suicides are treated by the press in Scandinavia. i.e. the press doesn't report his act of suicide. That might encourage others to commit one.

Maybe if the press would not have reported anything about McVeigh's punishment these kind of tragedies would subside.

PS. The general consensus in Scandinavia is that mass-murders happen in the US. It's simply our opinion. Like, generally we think the president of the USA, George W. Bush is a rather silly man.

[Gee4orce]

Sadly the media gave McVeigh exactly what he wanted - a circus. Publicity. The public's appetite for lurid entertainment bought him noteriety.

The whole point behind the bombing was because he was a beliver that the US government consipires against it's people. Strange how, in the end, his delusions because actual reality - and he was put to death by that very government.

As for the actual bombing - well, now the US realises what terrorism really is about, and that the IRA (and the 'Real IRA') are not freedom fighters waged in a legitamate war with an oppressive regime, but cowards who murder innocent bystanders. It's shameful how long the USA allowed republican fundraising on US soil.

...great poem though.

[l'ignorante]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
<STRONG>

...great poem though.</STRONG>

Yes it is, dark and comforting..shame about the way it's going to be famous now.

[suprz]

Originally posted by artman:
<STRONG>

Seeing this image again made me disgusted and embarrased that anyone could plan, stage and get away with something like the bombing in this country....If there was anybody who deserved to die for an act like this it was him.



We have to see these images again to remind us what happened that day.</STRONG>

DAMN STRAIGHT!!! seeing this image alone makes me sick and disgusted that anyone would want to keep mcveigh alive. how can anyone actually oppose the killing of this person (and i use that term loosely). the only regret i have about his execution is not being there to shake the executioners hand.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Bugs Bunny:
<STRONG>

I think you'd change your mind if it was someone from your family blown to bits in that federal building.</STRONG>

How about if it was your son or daughter who was the murderer?

[christ]

It may be worth noting at this point that the emotive picture shows a babe that _survived_ McVeigh (or at least purports to, I don't know what happened to the kid later), but looks really newsworthy - 'How could we not kill a man that did this?' being the required emotional response.

I note again that pictures of nail bomb victims on the streets of Ireland do not appear to stop otherwise (apparently) right thinking citizens of the US supporting the Catholic 'fight for freedom'. It would be interesting (to me at least) to hear what Noraid would say if the IRA (real or otherwise) 'freedom fighters' were to deploy their tactics against Protestants in the US. I expect a degree of double-talk would be necessary to rescue the situation.

Terrorism is _never_ OK when it is used against you, but is apparently sometimes acceptable when it is used to support your own views. (Same as murder, which is apparently OK if the state mandates it).

Odd huh?

Chris. T.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by l'ignorante:
<STRONG>

Yes it is, dark and comforting..shame about the way it's going to be famous now.</STRONG>

Exactly- This guy has done for this poem what Hitler did for that style of mustache and the swastika (now, wasn't that a native american symbol for earth?). I learned that poem in Jr. High school, again in college. Is it still being tought?

[Numnutz]

So, Voodoo, I see that they smoke crack up there in that unpronouncable sh*thole in Iceland that you call home.

FYI, in 2000 there were less than 600 murders in NYC and thus far in 2001 we are favorably below that figure.