[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

And I've been created in his image, so why should I?

But honestly, I have a hard time to understand how a being far more enlightened than I is able exhibit characteristics that are universally frowned upon in lower level life forms.

Also, who respects "do as I say, not as I do"?

1. Created in His image is not the same as actually being God.

2. Could you name those characteristics please.

3. I don't understand.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

1. Created in His image is not the same as actually being God.

I corrected my post.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

2. Could you name those characteristics please.

Selfish and vain.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Your assumption is wrong. I am not afraid that I am alone and that there is no meaning to life. I chose to acknowledge God and I find it easy to image He doesn't exist.

That's my point. I don't think "There's a god but I don't want to actually worship him, I'm better" like your "actively and conceitedly" implies.

[JonoMarshall]

Gees, can't people argue about something meaningful?

God does/doesn't exist, fine. Ignorance is all we've got right?

So in that case, why don't you all move forward and suggest how we can forge relationships and a sense of unified humanity?

For me it's about disempowering your sense of identity to allow more meaningful communication and understanding. Is this possible? Perhaps not... communication (as well as faith) is semi-bunk due to our layers of perception and individual experience. Sooo, how can identity and conciousness become more meaningful? You tell me, perhaps a good starting point would be an open mind and a slice of humble pie when involving yourself in the inherently constructed and stubborn world of an internet forum?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

That's my point. I don't think "There's a god but I don't want to actually worship him, I'm better" like your "actively and conceitedly" implies.

Sorry, I didn't mean you per se. I meant atheists who "know" there is no God and actively and conceitedly spout it an every mention of God.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by JonoMarshall 

Gees, can't people argue about something meaningful?

Hehe, the possible meaning of our existence or lack there of not meaningful enough for you?

But seriously, FYI RR, I'm out for the day, if you feel like continuing this tomorrow.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by JonoMarshall 

Gees, can't people argue about something meaningful?

God does/doesn't exist, fine. Ignorance is all we've got right?

So in that case, why don't you all move forward and suggest how we can forge relationships and a sense of unified humanity?

For me it's about disempowering your sense of identity to allow more meaningful communication and understanding. Is this possible? Perhaps not... communication (as well as faith) is semi-bunk due to our layers of perception and individual experience. Sooo, how can identity and conciousness become more meaningful? You tell me, perhaps a good starting point would be an open mind and a slice of humble pie when involving yourself in the inherently constructed and stubborn world of an internet forum?

Why are you even on here if you believe all that?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Sorry, I didn't mean you per se. I meant atheists who "know" there is no God and actively and conceitedly spout it an every mention of God.

Crap, my mistake too. I spent so many years as an athiest then mistakenly thinking I was, I forget the more accurate/current term for myself is agnostic.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Hehe, the possible meaning of our existence or lack there of not meaningful enough for you?

indeed!

But seriously, FYI RR, I'm out for the day, if you feel like continuing this tomorrow.

I've enjoyed this conversation, even if on surface appearance it looks like I haven't.

See you tomorrow!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

I corrected my post.

Selfish and vain.

But he is also Loving and understanding.

Hey, when I can truly accurately describe God and his characteristics, I'll be dead and it will be too late.

[Mastrap]

^ Or her

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by JonoMarshall 

Gees, can't people argue about something meaningful?

God does/doesn't exist, fine. Ignorance is all we've got right?

Yes. That's argument's going nowhere. God exists. Karma doesn't. Period.

Right, so.

Brown or pink nips then? I like the near translucency of the pink, personally.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

^ Or her

God's definitely a bloke. Otherwise, we'd be the ones with PMS.

[JonoMarshall]

Hehe, the possible meaning of our existence or lack there of not meaningful enough for you?

Not when it's wrapped in an individual's argumentative mindset.

Why are you even on here if you believe all that?

Good point, my MacNN life will now cease to exist... thanks for the ride and enjoy yourselves.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by JonoMarshall 

Good point, my MacNN life will now cease to exist... thanks for the ride and enjoy yourselves.

Bye.

[Kevin]

I don't know about all of you. But I am having dejavu. Every month or so one of these threads come up. And each side never convinces either side either way.

So why keep on? What is the constant need to discuss this? What keeps bringing people to constantly make religious comments?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I don't know about all of you. But I am having dejavu. Every month or so one of these threads come up. And each side never convinces either side either way.

So why keep on? What is the constant need to discuss this? What keeps bringing people to constantly make religious comments?

Sorry. It is in my mind quite a bit. I also enjoy an honest discussion. The ones who say things to intentionally inflame are quite irritating, I'll admit, but if a belief is stated honestly, as it comes from the heart, I am more than happy to discuss it. I also want to set aside misconception in people's beliefs about Christians and ho they are/come from.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

a). I don't speak bible, but the gist I'm getting is you're justifying his prioritization by the mere fact that he said it is to be. That's circular logic.
b). What i said applies to any higher being in general.

I'm not justifying anything, I'm just pointing out where that area of Christian doctrine comes from.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

^ Or her

Good point!

Many Orthodox churches believe the Holy Spirit aspect of the trinity is feminine.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Sorry. It is in my mind quite a bit. I also enjoy an honest discussion. The ones who say things to intentionally inflame are quite irritating, I'll admit, but if a belief is stated honestly, as it comes from the heart, I am more than happy to discuss it. I also want to set aside misconception in people's beliefs about Christians and ho they are/come from.

My comment wasn't really directed at you Rail because you rarely bring these things up.

It's usually those against religion or Christianity that keep bringing it up.

I guess that is what is the puzzling part.

It makes as much sense as PC users that dislike Macintosh computers, constantly talking about them all the time. Then when someone that actually does use Macs says something about them they react with "Oh jeesh, I wish the Mac user would shut up about Macs already and stop shoving it down our throats"

One can only think of insecurity as the drive that pushes these discussions.

Of course anyone that is insecure would never admit it.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Absolutely honestly, yes. Why would (or should) god prioritize what we believe over how we treat each other?

Because how we treat each other should be a direct consequence of what we believe.

Two major commandments:
1. Love God
2. Love everyone else

"Christians" that won't go out of their way to help someone in need are letting their true selves show through, just like people that are quick to point out faults in others while ignoring their own and people that fail to show any semblance of caring for those around them.

Hosea 6 talks about a people group that did everything God wanted - they went through the actions - but they didn't actually care.

I want you to show love,
not offer sacrifices.
I want you to know me
more than I want burnt offerings.

So he values good works rather than mindless following of tradition.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I guess I'll just lean on my limited human understanding that God would appreciate being worshipped, good deeds being done in His name, and admitting that I am an inconsequential mote compared to Him. That, over and above a selfish, vain, ignorant, person who rejects God in all forms and whose good deeds are all done in total self interest.

Can we get rid of the Evil Atheist stereotype here? I really don't think doing good deeds for humanist reasons is more selfish than doing them to win Heaven Points.

Anyway, here's the question I was trying to get at: Would God prefer that I force myself to passively believe in him as a cultural thing and offer lip-service out of fear that he might possibly exist, or would God prefer that I stand up honestly for what I believe in and act according to my best understanding of what is right?

Leaning on my limited human understanding, I'd think a good God would prefer somebody who earnestly tries to do good over somebody who lucks into going to the right church or somebody who strokes his ego — if God's almighty, why would he care what I think of him, especially given that I have essentially no reliable information on the matter? That kind of insecurity is generally considered a failing in humans. Describing God as a creature who prefers mere belief over actual moral fiber makes him sound like some kind of really horrible Pointy Haired Boss type.

[Kevin]

I am sorry here Chuckit, but this was some irony I had to point out

You say

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Can we get rid of the Evil Atheist stereotype here?

I agree, no one should be bashing Atheists. But if you'd be honest with yourself you'd admit that the bashing usually starts in these threads by a non-believer. If that never started, these threads would cease to exist.

But that isn't the clincher. You asked him to stop making Atheistic stereotypes. Then you went in the same paragraph and made a stereotype of your own

I really don't think doing good deeds for humanist reasons is more selfish than doing them to win Heaven Points.

I as a Christian do not do good deeds hoping to win heaven points. As a Christian I know good deeds a lone wont get me anywhere. As a Christian I do good deeds because I WANT to. Because It's what I feel I am SUPPOSED to do here on this planet. Being that I don't really question where I am going, the motivations behind me deeds have nothing to do with me trying to get into heaven. And this is true with most all Christians I know. Once the Holy Spirit entered my life, I WANTED to do these things. Not because I think I am going to get rewarded afterword. But because as a human, I don't like to see anyone suffer.

Those that have never had the Holy Spirit in their lives simply don't understand the feeling I am referring to. It's not like one I've ever had before.

Lets just say the drugs out on the streets are tokens for the real thing.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I am sorry here Chuckit, but this was some irony I had to point out

You say

I agree, no one should be bashing Atheists. But if you'd be honest with yourself you'd admit that the bashing usually starts in these threads by a non-believer. If that never started, these threads would cease to exist.

But that isn't the clincher. You asked him to stop making Atheistic stereotypes. Then you went in the same paragraph and made a stereotype of your own

I as a Christian do not do good deeds hoping to win heaven points. As a Christian I know good deeds a lone wont get me anywhere. As a Christian I do good deeds because I WANT to. Because It's what I feel I am SUPPOSED to do here on this planet. Being that I don't really question where I am going, the motivations behind me deeds have nothing to do with me trying to get into heaven. And this is true with most all Christians I know. Once the Holy Spirit entered my life, I WANTED to do these things. Not because I think I am going to get rewarded afterword. But because as a human, I don't like to see anyone suffer.

Those that have never had the Holy Spirit in their lives simply don't understand the feeling I am referring to. It's not like one I've ever had before.

Lets just say the drugs out on the streets are tokens for the real thing.

I couldn't have said it better. Chuckit, consider this my response to your post.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

But because as a human, I don't like to see anyone suffer.

Which btw is the foundation of Buddhism too - empathy with all sentient beings.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Which btw is the foundation of Buddhism too - empathy with all sentient beings.

Wrong, that is not the foundation of Christianity.

[Face Ache]

Jesus said: "Suffer the little children"

He clearly wanted the little bastards to suffer.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Face Ache 

Jesus said: "Suffer the little children"

He clearly wanted the little bastards to suffer.

And who could argue with that?

[Kevin]

Within context.

Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God.15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. 16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

The purpose of that entrance was to educate Christians about child discipline and child rearing.

Read also


Mt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mt 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

We are all children. IMHO

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

But he is also Loving and understanding.

And so are atheists and agnostics. But it sounds like he doesn't wants to cut them any slack.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Hey, when I can truly accurately describe God and his characteristics, I'll be dead and it will be too late.

Yeah, I'll be dead when any real sense is made of this god business.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I don't know about all of you. But I am having dejavu....So why keep on? What is the constant need to discuss this? What keeps bringing people to constantly make religious comments?

Because meaning of existence is on the forefront of most people's lives. BTW, love you complaining about deja vu after you gave your atheism is faith speech for the 53rd time.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I'm not justifying anything, I'm just pointing out where that area of Christian doctrine comes from.

Alright then.

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Because how we treat each other should be a direct consequence of what we believe.

How so?

Originally Posted by Laminar 

So he values good works rather than mindless following of tradition.

To me, that would mean he would value an atheist full of good deeds over a follower of hollow faith, something which RR denies would occur.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

To me, that would mean he would value an atheist full of good deeds over a follower of hollow faith, something which RR denies would occur.

He wouldn't value either. James makes it clear that hollow faith is worthless.

What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

Good deeds and an honest desire to help others are the natural outcome of true, real faith.

[Dakarʒ]

So the question is, why are good deeds not enough? Are you telling me an atheist or agnostic can't have a genuine desire to help people?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

And so are atheists and agnostics. But it sounds like he doesn't wants to cut them any slack.

Just like you can't get help unless you ask, the same applies here. The big J can't do anything for you unless you ask. If you are dying of a disease, and a nurse has the cure, and you tell her you don't believe in the cure, and wont take it, you can't be saved no matter how many good deeds you have done. You have to first accept that a cure exists.

Because meaning of existence is on the forefront of most people's lives.

If the meaning of existence was all one talked about in this thread I would agree. But most of these threads are really insincere and condescending jabs at one another. This isn't a serious discussion. Why we keep doing it is beyond me. We should make a point to stop it.

BTW, love you complaining about deja vu after you gave your atheism is faith speech for the 53rd time.

I have only gave it that many times because the same atheists keep repeating the same word spin. I didn't see and Christians bringing up religion in here first. Why is it that most of the time these derails always start with people that aren't religious?

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

So the question is, why are good deeds not enough? Are you telling me an atheist or agnostic can't have a genuine desire to help people?

Good deeds can't save your soul. Read above.

You can have the worst disease ever and be a nice person and not get rid of it because you refuse to admit that there is a cure. Or that you even have said disease. By doing so, your actions are irrelevant.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Just like you can't get help unless you ask, the same applies here. The big J can't do anything for you unless you ask.

What help am I supposed to be asking for?

Originally Posted by Kevin 

If the meaning of existence was all one talked about in this thread I would agree. But most of these threads are really insincere and condescending jabs at one another. This isn't a serious discussion. Why we keep doing it is beyond me. We should make a point to stop it.

So you think this is all insincere on my part?

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I have only gave it that many times because the same atheists keep repeating the same word spin.

Don't contribute to the problem and then complain about it. You could have complained about deja vu before your argument, but then you wouldn't have gotten to say your piece on athiesm.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Wrong, that is not the foundation of Christianity.

Where did I say that it was?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

What help am I supposed to be asking for?

Help? Forgiveness? What he died for. He cannot give you this help unless you ask. If I have a cure for a disease I can't give it to people without them first coming to me and requesting it. But that takes admitting that said cure works. If you feel you can get through by just doing good deeds then by all means try it. You and you alone are responsible for your actions in the end.

So you think this is all insincere on my part?

I am not strictly talking about you Dakar. I am speaking about the over all general threads like this. They ARE usually filled with people that don't care, that just want to make jabs. Do I think you are one of these people? From what I see so far no. If you are honestly curious about these things then good on you. But most people just come in here to "discuss" things in an attempt to belittle or debunk. They don't want to learn anything different.

Don't contribute to the problem and then complain about it.

Maybe I saw the problem after I made said post? Maybe I came to a different conclusion days after making said post?

You could have complained about deja vu before your argument, but then you wouldn't have gotten to say your piece on athiesm.

I assure you no planning was made in that sense. This is the type of condescending droll I am referring to. And it has nothing to do with the topic. You are making character assassinations instead of dealing with the content.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Help? Forgiveness?

Forgiveness for what? (I think the problem here is you're trying to address the problem thinking as a Christian when the thinking needs to be agnostic)

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I am not strictly talking about you Dakar

I realize that, just curious whether I am included among those you're referring to.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Maybe I saw the problem after I made said post? Maybe I came to a different conclusion days after making said post?

I assure you no planning was made in that sense. This is the type of condescending droll I am referring to. And it has nothing to do with the topic. You are making character assassinations instead of dealing with the content.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that someone who has been here as long and posted as much as you have doesn't see the writing on the wall when one of these starts.

You call me condescending? Trying to act above the fray after giving an opinion of yours everyone already knows, that's condescending. <--- (That's an opinion dealing your post content not your character)

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Forgiveness for what?

If you deny you have a sickness (sin) you surely cannot receive the cure for it. In order to defeat sickness (sin) you have to admit you have said sickness. And that there is a cure for said sickness.

(I think the problem here is you're trying to address the problem thinking as a Christian when the thinking needs to be agnostic)

No, I am just answering your question. You were asking how come such people aren't saved just by doing good deeds.

As far as the rest of your post.. it really has nothing to do with the topic.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

If you deny you have a sickness (sin) you surely cannot receive the cure for it. In order to defeat sickness (sin) you have to admit you have said sickness. And that there is a cure for said sickness.

So people are all inherently bad before they ask for help?

I don't buy it, and it doesn't seem like we were created in the image of god if, without forgiveness, we are held in the same regard as those who aren't good people.

Atheists can be just as caring (sometimes better) people as devout Christians.

My problem with the Christian god is that he seems very spiteful and self-absorbed.

If a pure being of unknowable power did exist I'd at least give him the credit of being above human emotions.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Where did I say that it was?

This statement:

Which btw is the foundation of Buddhism too

Your use of the word "too". Could be implied as Christianity has it at it's foundation too.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

My problem with the Christian god is that he seems very spiteful and self-absorbed.

If a pure being of unknowable power did exist I'd at least give him the credit of being above human emotions.

Why are you attributing human emotions to God?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

If you deny you have a sickness (sin) you surely cannot receive the cure for it. In order to defeat sickness (sin) you have to admit you have said sickness. And that there is a cure for said sickness.

Well, there's no proof I have the sickness.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

No, I am just answering your question. You were asking how come such people aren't saved just by doing good deeds.

We're long past that. The question is more of why God is so concerned getting worship over having us live a decent life. So far there's no good answer if you're agnostic.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Why are you attributing human emotions to God?

The Old testament for one. (For me)

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by sek929 

So people are all inherently bad before they ask for help?

According to Christianity we are BORN into sin. Again, not saying anyone has to believe this. Just giving the point of view as far as Christianity goes.

I don't buy it, and it doesn't seem like we were created in the image of god if, without forgiveness, we are held in the same regard as those who aren't good people.

What do you mean created in the image of God? What does that have to do with forgiveness?

Atheists can be just as caring (sometimes better) people as devout Christians.

And I don't think anyone is arguing this.

My problem with the Christian god is that he seems very spiteful and self-absorbed.

Yeah so much so that he sent his only son to be killed so a bunch of ungrateful people could mock him on internet boards.

If a pure being of unknowable power did exist I'd at least give him the credit of being above human emotions.

Why? Are emotions somehow un-modern? are we to be emotiveless?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Well, there's no proof I have the sickness.

Well that has really nothing to do with the question you asked.

We're long past that. The question is more of why God is so concerned getting worship over having us live a decent life. So far there's no good answer if you're agnostic.

Worshipped? Who said anything about worshipping? I am mearly referring to admittance of wrong doing and that you aren't "perfect"

Maybe a heads up to the guy that made you possible not to be destroyed because of the fall. (Of course I know you don't believe. I am just speaking within context)

The Old testament for one. (For me)

New Testament too. Read Revelations. Same God.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

The question is more of why God is so concerned getting worship over having us live a decent life.

I haven't seen proof that this is the case.

[Kevin]

Yeah me either. Or that anyone has said it either.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Worshipped? Who said anything about worshipping?

Last page.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Well that has really nothing to do with the question you asked.

I am mearly referring to admittance of wrong doing and that you aren't "perfect"


Maybe a heads up to the guy that made you possible not to be destroyed because of the fall. (Of course I know you don't believe. I am just speaking within context)

New Testament too. Read Revelations. Same God.

Alright, I feel like I'm going backwards here. I'll stick with RR and Laminar since they seem to get what kind of discussion I'm looking for.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I agree, no one should be bashing Atheists. But if you'd be honest with yourself you'd admit that the bashing usually starts in these threads by a non-believer.

Honestly, I don't usually keep track, because I haven't thought "he started it" was a valid excuse since I was five years old.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

But that isn't the clincher. You asked him to stop making Atheistic stereotypes. Then you went in the same paragraph and made a stereotype of your own

Uh…yes, I did flip the stereotype around to illustrate why it's invalid. That was intentional. No need to get stuck on it — I didn't when Railroader was seriously basing his argument on the idea that it was Evil Atheists Who Hate Everyone versus Good Christians Who Cherish Peace And Love And All That.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I couldn't have said it better. Chuckit, consider this my response to your post.

That's a shame. I was genuinely curious what people thought.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Last page.

Example? Did *I* say it?

Alright, I feel like I'm going backwards here. I'll stick with RR and Laminar since they seem to get what kind of discussion I'm looking for.

Backwards? I guess if I am not giving you the answers you are wanting to respond to, go right ahead. But I did answer your questions. Agree with them, or not.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I haven't seen proof that this is the case.

What spurred the discussion between RR and I was the fact that I believed that if someone didn't believe in God but lived a very good life, I thought it was reasonable they'd be favored over a Christian going through the motions (it goes without saying a believer who lived a very good life trumps both). The crux of the disagreement seems to be that RR thinks its very/more important that God get his due, than someone who doesn't believe in him do good to fellow man. (RR, if I've misrepresented the case, feel free to step in here and clarify).

Edit: Therefore I asked the question, why does god feel its more important he get his due than we do good to each other?