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A random religious thought... (Page 2)
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voodoo
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:36 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Some people claim they are born murderers. If they kill no one. No sin is committed.
I don't know where you got that idea.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
xenu
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:36 AM
 
Sin? Just a word. There is no such thing.

The jesus myth? Plagarised from the older Hindu and Egyptian religions.

Hell? A world run by fundies.
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
     
voodoo
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
You don't make a good case for proving it's utter nonsense.

I guess we will find out when we die.

If I am wrong, oh well. I lived a good life.

If you are wrong however.. the consequences are a bit higher.

I myself? I was born a Christian. I can't help it.
You said you used to deal drugs. That is not 'leading a good life'. I'd worry if I were you.

What have you done to reverse the damage you have caused others?
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
forkies
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:44 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
You said you used to deal drugs. That is not 'leading a good life'. I'd worry if I were you.

What have you done to reverse the damage you have caused others?
I heard that if you ask the voices in your head to forgive you they'll tell you everything's cool and you can move on with your life.

Mystical, magical, amazing! | Part 2 | The spread of Christianity is our goal. -Railroader
     
Nicko
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:35 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
You said you used to deal drugs. That is not 'leading a good life'. I'd worry if I were you.

What have you done to reverse the damage you have caused others?
Its called purgatory, don't ya know?
     
Altix
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
That has been explained to you time and time again. You just keep repeating the same nonsense as if you have never heard any different.

Why is that?

Again. God didn't create homosexuals.

After the fall of Adam, man fell into sin.
Myths and legends. This particular fable of original sin is one nasty little gotcha in Christianity.
"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
     
Altix
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:44 AM
 
Here's a bag o' quotes I've gathered over the years.

Religions are like farts: yours is good, the others always stink.
-- Someone on Picket Fences

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth; he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest.
-- Unknown

It is not hardness of heart or evil passions that drive certain individuals to atheism, but rather a scrupulous intellectual honesty.
-- Steve Allen

If God would only give me a clear sign... like making a large deposit, in my name, in a Swiss bank.
-- Woody Allen

If asked whether I believe in God, I suppose I must reply that as soon as incontrovertible evidence for God's existence is presented to me, I will accept it.
-- Issac Asimov

To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.
-- Isaac Asimov

It's a vacuous answer . . . To say that 'God made the world' is simply a more or less sophisticated way of saying that we don't understand how the universe originated. A god, in so far as it is anything, is an admission of ignorance.
-- Peter Atkins
"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 09:52 AM
 
Originally posted by Tulkas:
Sorry zim, I don't buy into miracles.
I used to not at one time as well.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 09:54 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
You said you used to deal drugs. That is not 'leading a good life'. I'd worry if I were you.

What have you done to reverse the damage you have caused others?
Anything I have done in my past has been forgiven. Why? I have asked Christ into my life and asked for forgiveness. It has all been forgotten.

The basics of Christianity.
     
benb
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:07 AM
 
Originally posted by Altix:
Here's a bag o' quotes I've gathered over the years.
I only trust men who are faultless. Sorry.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:21 AM
 
Originally posted by benb:
I only trust men who are faultless. Sorry.
     
Nicko
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:45 AM
 
Originally posted by benb:
I only trust men who are faultless. Sorry.

Are you implying Woody Allen isn't faultless?
     
Altix
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:46 AM
 
Originally posted by benb:
I only trust men who are faultless. Sorry.
Must be a killer never trusting anyone in this world.
"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
     
voodoo
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:49 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Anything I have done in my past has been forgiven. Why? I have asked Christ into my life and asked for forgiveness. It has all been forgotten.

The basics of Christianity.
Sorry Zimphire. That is some other religion you are talking about. Christianity isn't anything like you describe it.

You've been lied to.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Altix
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:53 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Sorry Zimphire. That is some other religion you are talking about. Christianity isn't anything like you describe it.

You've been lied to.
From what I see of zim's personality on here, he embodies none of the qualities that many Christians I have known in my life have, throughout the world. I'l take a stab at it and say that zim's religion is political Christianity of the modern day American type.
( Last edited by Altix; Apr 29, 2004 at 11:01 AM. )
"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
     
phoenixboy
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:59 AM
 
Originally posted by Altix:
I'l take a stab at it and say that zim's religion is political Christianity of the modern day American type.
aka fascism. correct.

So keep on living And don`t start giving The devil good reasons To get you in the seasons of heartbreak Baby are you tough enough?
     
Nicko
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:06 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Sorry Zimphire. That is some other religion you are talking about. Christianity isn't anything like you describe it.

You've been lied to.
Methinks he needs to refer to the map agian.

     
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:32 AM
 
Originally posted by Beewee:


I have heard the term "slippery slope" time and time again when it comes to questioning religion. And have heard arguments that "You have a choice" if you want to believe in God and Jesus. But if you choose "no", you're sent to hell. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus, however I am starting to question whether people who don't believe are actually sent to hell.

If hell is a place of suffering and torment where the damned souls reside to burn forever and ever and we assume God is 100% benevolent, how can he/she/it send you to hell for not believing in Jesus?
Isn't it possible that regardless of your beliefs we all go to Heaven or some form of an afterlife?

I started to read the previous threads, and the comments were all going downhill so fast I skipped them and went straight to posting my thoughts/opinions/beliefs, assuming that you are truly wanting to have a mature discussion about this.

First off, this is a HUGE can of worms to open, and there are several beliefs and interpretations (obviously). There are, however, some things we need to define (insofar as my beliefs):

1) Heaven: Paradise, the Bosom of Jehovah, the third heaven, the place of holding before the Faithful enter into New Heaven and New Earth.

2) Hell: A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, the eternal state of being separated from God, the Father, and knowing that you are, the lake of fire.

3) Age of Accountability: not specifically defined in Scripture, but an understood belief that those who are not old/mature enough to understand salvation and Jesus sacrifice are not subject to eternal separation from Him.

4) Purgatory: a term used mostly by the catholic faith to describe the way-station for those lost souls prior to the Second Coming of Christ.

Having said that, heres what I think happens when we die (from a Christian-faith perspective)...

1) We die.

2) If we have accepted Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, our soul is brought into Heaven, which is also paradise, the bosom of Jehovah, the third heaven. The Apocrypha refer to this place as the place of holding. Here, we are in the full presence of God, Jesus, and the fellow dead faithful but this place is only temporary: its a way-station to our final eternal existence.

3) Upon the second coming (Jesus return to Earth), Mankind will face judgement (which Ill save for a whole other topic sometime) and saved will be gathered into heaven, and the lost will be sent to the Lake of Fire. This time-frame is commonly (and incorrectly) referred to as the Apocalypse. After this last stand, The Book of the Revelation of St John tells us that the Earth as we know it is burned and a new Earth is reborn, and a place John calls the New Jerusalem descends to the new earth. It is in this New Jerusalem and on the new Earth the Faithful will spend eternity, moved from their temporary place of holding: Heaven. It is also at this time that the Lake of Fire is destroyed, as well as all that are in it.

4) For those that are lost, they die and also go to their place of holding but they are separated from God and do not have access to paradise. This is what some faiths refer to as Purgatory. Some faiths believe that even in this place, ones soul can find redemption but thats another topic, too.

5) Upon the return of Christ, the lost are cast into the Lake of Fire and are tormented because their soul is now fully separated from God.

6) Upon the destroying of the Lake of Fire, those lost souls are consumed and cease to exist as does Satan, etc.

As to how God can allow this, its quite simple: He has no choice. He laid the ground work and the setup the rules but we chose to break them. Wanting to keep us in a good relationship, God did whatever He could while making sure to NOT trump our free will to provide a means by which to maintain our relationship. Eventually, He decided that no matter how hard we tried, Man could not stay faithful using his own means, so God sent Jesus to be the one, final sacrifice. Now, it was up to Man to accept that this gift would suffice and restore our relationship with God. The ball was, and is, in our court because God created us with free will to do whatever we choose.

If we choose not to believe in Him and accept the sacrifice of Jesus, because Hes a just and fair God, we have to deal with the consequence of said personal choice. That consequence is eternal separation form Him. If God were to override this, then we would no longer be living on free will, rather, we would simply be chess pieces in His game with the Devil.

All that said, I believe that all creations with souls (human, mankind) will have an after life. Those that are saved will spend eternity with God after a time in Heaven, those that are lost will spend time in Hell, separated from God, and then their soul will ultimately cease to exist.

Cripes, that was a long post!

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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AB^2=BCxAC
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:35 AM
 
St. Peter, taking a pee break, asks Joe Marcino (recently from Brooklyn) to sit in at the gate for him.

Peter: I'll be back. Help yourself to the donuts and zeppole. Coffee's underneath the podium.

Joe: Thanks!

Joe looks at the big book in front of him and then at the long line stretching out to the cloud horizon and then calls out his first name.

Joe: Muamur Pradpor, time to be judged. Step up to the line.

Muamur: Yes.

Joe: Denomination? Says here you're a converted catholic. Good. At least you're not baptist. Do you have any sins you didn't get to confess before you died?

Muamur: Hmm. No?

Joe: Ok, you're in. Next! Alice Bloveldt... hey, you're from Bed-Stuy! Awesome! Step up to the line.

Alice: I'm jewish, am I supposed to be here?

Joe: Sure. Heaven is multi-denominational. But it says here that you didn't help your sister look after your mother when your mom became bed-ridden. Not good.

Alice: My mother disowned me after I had an abortion. She took away the support of my family when I needed it most. And when I married my life-partner, Annie, at a civic union, my mother had my sister tell me that she wished I'd never been born.

Joe: So, do you think you deserve to be here?

Alice: I was a social worker for 24 years, I planted trees, gave to all sorts of charities, and I gave Annie every ounce of love I had.

Joe: You're in. Next! Frank Stuart of Aspen, Colorado. Step to the line.

Frank: Where's St. Peter? Where is he? This can't be heaven... this isn't right. St. peter doesn't leave his post, lesbians don't get in ahead of me, a good Protestant man!

Joe: Yeah, well, you're right. There's been a mistake. We're reincarnating you as a factory worker in Angola but you slipped past security because you thought you deserved to be on line... no dice.

St. Peter comes up behind Joe.

Peter: Yeah, he's right. We let a lot of people in - politicians, athiests, but generally the rule is no dicks who don't understand that it's not what you believe in but whether you had good will in your heart for your fellow man. There's no hell, either: just second chances, or third chances... and Frank, this is your 24th chance. Try not to screw it up again by being divisive, ok?
"I stand accused, just like you, for being born without a silver spoon." Richard Ashcroft
     
phoenixboy
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:52 AM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
[B ]All that said, I believe that all creations with souls (human, mankind) will have an after life. [/B]
the major flaw in your philosophy, is that in order to "be" anywhere, you need something that will limit an entity. for example the human body! you can "locate" and ascribe a certain position to that body, because it is a singularity. either you are in brisbane, or you are in london...but you can't be in two places at the same time.

so, if you have two distinctly different places that the soul can "go to" (after the body is cast off), e.g. heaven and hell, what are the limitations that confine your soul to a singularity? you can't be in heaven and hell at the same time, can you (though i have heared people who live nyc sometimes feel that way ) ? so heaven and hell must be two distinct places as well. but where are they?

i think your idea of the "afterlife" is a grave, but often held, misinterpertation of ancient middle eastern mysticism, mixed with mideaval methods of social coersion.

you can talk about "string theory" and different dimensions all you want, but the fact remains that your "take" on the afterlife does involve that the "soul" needs to be an entity (which it, if really think it through, can't be) that can only be in one place AT A TIME. how can it be, without a body to keep it "in place"?

So keep on living And don`t start giving The devil good reasons To get you in the seasons of heartbreak Baby are you tough enough?
     
benign
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:53 AM
 
Originally posted by forkies:
I heard that if you ask the voices in your head to forgive you they'll tell you everything's cool and you can move on with your life.




This is where religion gets it's undeniable authenticity from
- how can you question yourself - when you are constantly
deceiving yourself - only playing a solo megalomaniacal mind
game within yourself. To gain control would result in admittance
that you were insane.

Spiritual-Catch22

You would have to be crazy to believe god spoke to you or showed
you his reality though earthly visions or miracles but equally,
once you've had these visions and inner monologs, you would
be insane if they were not real but imagined.

Once in - you're caught.


Simple Empire...
     
RAILhead
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:56 AM
 
Originally posted by phoenixboy:
the major flaw in your philosophy, is that in order to "be" anywhere, you need something that will limit an entity. for example the human body! you can "locate" and ascribe a certain position to that body, because it is a singularity. either you are in brisbane, or you are in london...but you can't be in two places at the same time.

so, if you have two distinctly different places that the soul can "go to" (after the body is cast off), e.g. heaven and hell, what are the limitations that confine your soul to a singularity? you can't be in heaven and hell at the same time, can you (though i have heared people who live nyc sometimes feel that way ) ? so heaven and hell must be two distinct places as well. but where are they?

i think your idea of the "afterlife" is a grave, but often held, misinterpertation of ancient middle eastern mysticism, mixed with mideaval methods of social coersion.

you can talk about "string theory" and different dimensions all you want, but the fact remains that your "take" on the afterlife does involve that the "soul" needs to be an entity (which it, if really think it through, can't be) that can only be in one place AT A TIME. how can it be, without a body to keep it "in place"?
What makes you think a soul needs a body? Nothing I posted states anything that goes against the soul being in a place (Heaven/Purgatory). If were in the same house but youre in a locked room, are we not still in the same house?
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
Sherwin
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:58 AM
 
Well at least there ain't gonna be an overcrowding problem up there.
     
gerbnl
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:06 PM
 
Originally posted by Beewee:
...this should be interesting.
Not at all...

You are simply caught in the church (as an institution) / religion (as a belief) controverse.

To put it simply: the church wants you to think there's such a thing as hell and that you'll go there if you don't behave as they see fit. It's is their powerbase.

Now god him/her/itself (no capitals for me as i'm not a believer) on the other hand is a nicebloke (at least: according to the gospel). As far as his influence would go, you'd to heaven by merely being a nice person. No need to believe, no need to follow certain rituals (au contrare, i might add), just be a "good" person, that's it.

nothing more to it...

and...

Originally posted by Beewee:
Isn't it possible that regardless of your beliefs we all go to Heaven or some form of an afterlife?
Yes, that is very possible. after we die we'll be fertilising the daisy's and live happily ever after (at least for a while) in the rememberance of our loved ones. Cool huh?
These people are Americans. Don't expect anything meaningful or... uh... normalcy...
     
phoenixboy
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:09 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
What makes you think a soul needs a body? Nothing I posted states anything that goes against the soul being in a place (Heaven/Purgatory). If were in the same house but youre in a locked room, are we not still in the same house?
sure, but aren't we still bound by our bodies, which makes it possible for one to be in the locked room, and the other in the cellar?

look at it this way, - how would you lock a body which is 900 square miles in a room which is only 200 square feet? how "big" is the soul? how big is heaven, - or hell for that matter? is my soul 6 foot 2 inches, so it will conveniently fit into a 200 square foot room?

So keep on living And don`t start giving The devil good reasons To get you in the seasons of heartbreak Baby are you tough enough?
     
benign
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:17 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
... the Bosom of Jehovah... Cripes, that was a long post!

Maury

I'd like to say I still respect you, but as
much more of a fantasy artist now.


Simple Empire...
     
gerbnl
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
Random religious thought -

"If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him." - Voltaire.

Well Yea.... "even Voltaire was an ass at times... " - gerbnl
These people are Americans. Don't expect anything meaningful or... uh... normalcy...
     
benign
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:18 PM
 
Originally posted by phoenixboy:
sure, but aren't we still bound by our bodies, which makes it possible for one to be in the locked room, and the other in the cellar?

look at it this way, - how would you lock a body which is 900 square miles in a room which is only 200 square feet? how "big" is the soul? how big is heaven, - or hell for that matter? is my soul 6 foot 2 inches, so it will conveniently fit into a 200 square foot room?

How big is a dream ?

This is where religious logic lies...


Simple Empire...
     
Xeo
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:35 PM
 
Originally posted by benb:
I only trust men who are faultless. Sorry.
You don't need to trust those words he posted. You don't need to trust the people who said them. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't think about the words for what they are. That's the reason I gave up on Christianity. I read the words (in the Bible) for what they were and stopped blindly trusting them. I made my own decision based on my conclusions, which, to put it bluntly, that the Bible is full of crap.

So read those words again and decide they are crap. Don't skip over them because your god didn't say them. Although you're probably skipping over this because I'm not faultless. And you probably didn't listen in school because your teachers weren't faultless. I'm surprised you listen to your minister because he/she certainly isn't faultless.

I just find it amazing that the only person you could trust is someone who's never actually spoken to you.
     
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:52 PM
 
Originally posted by phoenixboy:
sure, but aren't we still bound by our bodies, which makes it possible for one to be in the locked room, and the other in the cellar?

look at it this way, - how would you lock a body which is 900 square miles in a room which is only 200 square feet? how "big" is the soul? how big is heaven, - or hell for that matter? is my soul 6 foot 2 inches, so it will conveniently fit into a 200 square foot room?
What makes you think the soul has a literal size?

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
RAILhead
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:54 PM
 
Originally posted by benign:
I'd like to say I still respect you, but as
much more of a fantasy artist now.
Thats great and I can respect you and your opinions without making a juvenile dig at you because you believe differently than I do.



Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
benign
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Apr 29, 2004, 01:08 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Thats great and I can respect you and your opinions without making a juvenile dig at you because you believe differently than I do.

:rolleyes:

Maury

Believe different

Yeah, It was a little too personal, just shocked and
surprised by your beliefs and your style of delivery.


Simple Empire...
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 01:16 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Sorry Zimphire. That is some other religion you are talking about. Christianity isn't anything like you describe it.

You've been lied to.
Tell me voodoo. Why did Jesus die?
     
phoenixboy
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Apr 29, 2004, 01:31 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
What makes you think the soul has a literal size?

Maury
to be in either one place OR another, it needs to have a "size". literal or not.

So keep on living And don`t start giving The devil good reasons To get you in the seasons of heartbreak Baby are you tough enough?
     
imikeDotMac
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Apr 29, 2004, 01:34 PM
 
Aside from adding late to the argument last night..... I can't let Christianity be bashed for being homophobic when Christian teachings are used as an excuse for hatred. I have reconciled my place in my church, and with God, as a gay man. This was my upbringing, and I am not going to hate Christian's for their hatred, as it's human nature. So is love.

I keep hearing the words of 1 Corinthians, such as 13:4 "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant," or more importantly, 13:13
"But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."

I've been taught that love is the most important Christian value, and that is why my church honours gays and lesbians without even recognizing the sin, for it is not a sin to love another. My church (the largest protestant denomination in Canada, ahead of the Anglicans) was even supporting same-sex "marriages" before the legal right was granted.

Then again, I hardly go to church. But I know that the bible is a booka piece of literature, full of storiesthat one can justify anything from. I am secure that I can enjoy this life fully and with love, as it would be an insult to every god not too.
     
RAILhead
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Apr 29, 2004, 01:37 PM
 
Originally posted by phoenixboy:
to be in either one place OR another, it needs to have a "size". literal or not.
I disagree simply because were taking about a plane of existence not bound by our laws, insofar as we know. This being the case, I dont think we can aptly translate size, volume, etc. into said existence. Rather than size, I think presence but kudus to us for having a mature, decent discussion on the matter while disagreeing.

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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phoenixboy
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Apr 29, 2004, 01:54 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
I disagree simply because were taking about a plane of existence not bound by our laws, insofar as we know.
oh, but when you talk about heaven and hell, you seem to be pretty specific and clear on describing something which is very much "bound by our laws" of "space and time".

again, can one be in heaven and hell at the same time? - no. different place, differnet time.

Originally posted by RAILhead:
This being the case, I dont think we can aptly translate size, volume, etc. into said existence. Rather than size, I think presence
that's just a different term for "being". but when you say john's soul is in heaven, - again you are talking about a very specific place (heaven NOT hell) and a very specific "person" john, - not harry, dick or tom.

Originally posted by RAILhead:
but kudus to us for having a mature, decent discussion on the matter while disagreeing.

So keep on living And don`t start giving The devil good reasons To get you in the seasons of heartbreak Baby are you tough enough?
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 04:30 PM
 
Originally posted by phoenixboy:
to be in either one place OR another, it needs to have a "size". literal or not.
You are using rules bound by the natural, to explain the supernatural.

The supernatural, by definition isn't bound by such rules.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 04:33 PM
 
Originally posted by imikeDotMac:
Aside from adding late to the argument last night..... I can't let Christianity be bashed for being homophobic when Christian teachings are used as an excuse for hatred.

The only hatred that is there, is projected hatred by people that don't understand.

There is no hatred.

I have reconciled my place in my church, and with God, as a gay man. This was my upbringing, and I am not going to hate Christian's for their hatred, as it's human nature. So is love.

I don't hate you.

I keep hearing the words of 1 Corinthians, such as 13:4 "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant," or more importantly, 13:13
"But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."

I've been taught that love is the most important Christian value, and that is why my church honours gays and lesbians without even recognizing the sin, for it is not a sin to love another.

No, you are right, It isn't sin to love. But to ignore or not recognize the sin doesn't make the sin suddenly ok.

My church (the largest protestant denomination in Canada, ahead of the Anglicans) was even supporting same-sex "marriages" before the legal right was granted.

Then again, I hardly go to church. But I know that the bible is a booka piece of literature, full of storiesthat one can justify anything from. I am secure that I can enjoy this life fully and with love, as it would be an insult to every god not too.
Well that is up to you and your maker.
( Last edited by Zimphire; Apr 29, 2004 at 05:56 PM. )
     
RAILhead
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:49 PM
 
Originally posted by phoenixboy:
oh, but when you talk about heaven and hell, you seem to be pretty specific and clear on describing something which is very much "bound by our laws" of "space and time".

again, can one be in heaven and hell at the same time? - no. different place, differnet time.
How so, and where did my comments allow for that assumption? Nothing I said (I don't think) was bound by our laws or time -- nothing I mentioed had anything in particular to do with time per se (other than "times" like death, the second coming, etc.).

that's just a different term for "being". but when you say john's soul is in heaven, - again you are talking about a very specific place (heaven NOT hell) and a very specific "person" john, - not harry, dick or tom.
Right, but I don't see what the issue is and what difference it makes to the point of my comments. When I die, yes, my soul will have a "form" and will take up "space." How much? Who knows. Does it matter? Not really innsofar as my comments go. Is "God's" space and time the same as man's space and time? I don't believe so, no (enter the age-old discussion of the 7 days of Creation). I don't believe the Afterlife is bound by any type of "timing" or "space" or "volume." Man created such things, remember, to help us better handle the world around us.


[/B]


Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
imikeDotMac
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:57 PM
 
Quote:
I don't hate you.
Well I know you don't hate me. And you haven't shown any hatred yourself. That doesn't excuse Christians who hate. But just because my uncle hates gays (that love the sinner, hate the sin, as long it's not in my church), doesn't mean he's a hated by the family... just ignored.
     
benign
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Xeo:

...I just find it amazing that the only person you could trust is someone who's never actually spoken to you.


I've read it - it must be true.

So many peeps talking to themseleves - justifying their existence
as meaningful and eternal due to an internal monolog that
magically has it's origin outside of them is sad and proves how
much man is still a simple creature with pompous visions of
illusional grandeur.

That we all have a biological father does not install this feature
on the universe as a universal attribute. It's megalomaniac
obsessional thinking and should be transparent to all but the
most insane.

We can only learn archaic ideas like divine omnipotent creators
from others always gives the ideal away as a human construct
and not a real attribute inherent in nature.
That most religions deem animals to be soulless is because
they are frightened of our true natures and what we are.
The animal story teller, seemingly lost in his world of creations.

It's wrong to give an 'ideal' the sole rights to our best characteristics
like love and compassion etc, we own these intrinsically and don't need
a giant phallic santa claus skycultist to learn or get them from.

It must be time that the human child wakes and stands on his own, a man.


Simple Empire...
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:03 PM
 
Originally posted by imikeDotMac:
Well I know you don't hate me. And you haven't shown any hatred yourself. That doesn't excuse Christians who hate.

You are indeed right. It does not. We all have our faults.

But just because my uncle hates gays (that love the sinner, hate the sin, as long it's not in my church), doesn't mean he's a hated by the family... just ignored.
People should welcome ANYONE into their church. No matter what that person thinks or believes in.

Jesus himself didn't just hang out with like minded people.

And being it's a relative, I can see why you'd really be upset. I would be too.
     
Beewee  (op)
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Ozmodiar:
In any event, I think we're all going to be very surprised at what happens when we die.
Agreed
I don't think anyone can safely say they "know" regardless of scripture since it was translated from ancient hebrew and then retranslated through-out the ages in Europe as a way of luring people to that religion. I think that the bible does have some very good things to say I just can't trust the people who translated it.
So I read it, see how it affects my life (for better or worse) and put it to use in the manner I deem best. That is the definition of "free will" and if God indeed gave it to me, I don't see how he/she/it could hold it against me so long as the way I use it bring no intentional harm to anyone else.

I'm starting to believe that we're all going to Heaven.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:05 PM
 
Originally posted by benign:
It must be time that the human child wakes and stands on his own, a man.
We are all children. Just because you do or don't believe in God has nothing to do about being a "man"

Everyone knows a little splash of Old Spice does that.

Or was that Brute?
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:08 PM
 
Originally posted by Beewee:
Agreed
I don't think anyone can safely say they "know" regardless of scripture since it was translated from ancient hebrew and then retranslated through-out the ages in Europe as a way of luring people to that religion.

The message is still the same.

I'm starting to believe that we're all going to Heaven.
Satan doesn't want people believing in him, or hell. If he exists, so does God.
     
capuchin
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:19 PM
 
There's a great Bill Hicks quote:

"Eternal suffering awaits those who do not accept God's infinite love."



Originally posted by Beewee:
Warning: This thread contains extremely combustable religious material. If you must enter you do so at your own risk.

This is just something I thought while I was bored at work...

I have heard the term "slippery slope" time and time again when it comes to questioning religion. And have heard arguments that "You have a choice" if you want to believe in God and Jesus. But if you choose "no", you're sent to hell. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus, however I am starting to question whether people who don't believe are actually sent to hell.

If hell is a place of suffering and torment where the damned souls reside to burn forever and ever and we assume God is 100% benevolent, how can he/she/it send you to hell for not believing in Jesus?
Isn't it possible that regardless of your beliefs we all go to Heaven or some form of an afterlife?

Pretty simple question, I'm sure it has been discussed before...this should be interesting.
All opinions are entirely those of my employer. It's not my fault.
     
benign
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Beewee:

...I'm starting to believe that we're all going to Heaven.

I don't think you have listened to a word
anyone has said in this thread. Dream on,
that heaven is all you wish for and this
world is only a test of you obedience to a
male creator who's only desire for you is
your eternal praise.

Lets just hope that not many of your family
are eaten alive by cancer or parasites while
you wait for you're creators test to finish.


Simple Empire...
     
Zimphire
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:25 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:

Cripes, that was a long post!

Maury
I didn't have time to read this before, but after I did, you and I see eye to eye.
     
RAILhead
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:27 PM
 
Originally posted by benign:
I've read it - it must be true.

So many peeps talking to themseleves - justifying their existence
as meaningful and eternal due to an internal monolog that
magically has it's origin outside of them is sad and proves how
much man is still a simple creature with pompous visions of
illusional grandeur.

That we all have a biological father does not install this feature
on the universe as a universal attribute. It's megalomaniac
obsessional thinking and should be transparent to all but the
most insane.

We can only learn archaic ideas like divine omnipotent creators
from others always gives the ideal away as a human construct
and not a real attribute inherent in nature.
That most religions deem animals to be soulless is because
they are frightened of our true natures and what we are.
The animal story teller, seemingly lost in his world of creations.

It's wrong to give an 'ideal' the sole rights to our best characteristics
like love and compassion etc, we own these intrinsically and don't need
a giant phallic santa claus skycultist to learn or get them from.

It must be time that the human child wakes and stands on his own, a man.
Good lord, it's tripe like that makes it very difficult to take anything you say seriously. A discussion was started, but for some reason, you feel the need to belittle those that believe in God or have a Faith. You feel the need to berate and bastardize those who profess a belief with juvenile name calling and then with that last post which was obviously an attempt to use a lot of Big Words to make a Big Point, but it just didn't cut it.

I always love these discussions and how some people just can't have a conversation about different opinions and beliefs like dare I say it a man. As a Christian, if I were to post a vapid diatribe like that regarding someone else's faith, I'd be deemed a hypocrite and all the other slanderous things people like to call "Christians."

It's funny how you feel it's OK for you to make comments like that, but something tells me you'd jump all over me if *I* were to make comments like that about someone else's faith. Further, i find it funny that I have no problems discussing things being in the faith Minority here you don't see me telling everyone they're "going to Hell in a hand basket" or anything like that. You don't see me making childish remarks about anyone else's beliefs. Why? Because this "human child" stands on his own, a man.

Now, can the adults continue the discussion, please?

Thanks,
Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
 
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