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striker100 · May 19, 2006, 07:52 AM

Here it is:
http://www.notebookreview.com/defaul...=Apple+MacBook

harrisjamieh · May 19, 2006, 08:05 AM

Thats been around for a few days now. He should not have posted a review about a defective machine

RadarBob2 · May 19, 2006, 10:39 AM

A review from a guy who admittedly doesn't know scheiss from shineola about Mac OS X or Macintoshes? At least he admitted it up front.

This is the pinicle of not-worth-a-bit, a-hem, reviews of computers and macintosh in particular. What the hell is the point of telling me the pencil-eraser-pointy-thing on the Thinkpad is the best pointing device ever? Besides my totally opposite experience - I think they are evil, what does that have to do with the MacBook?

Gone are the halcion days of MacUser magazine reviews that literally gave you the inside story of a new macintosh. MacUser made me an informed Macintosh consumer.

I sure would like to know what is new and different about the Macbook vis-a-vis the earlier versions - in detail. THAT would be helpful. The keyboard and lid hinge are way different. What about that? And where are the speakers? And that's just the exterior.

P.S. Thanks for the photos. The rest was a waste of time.

SkaGoat · May 19, 2006, 01:04 PM

It's a bad review because the reviewer has negative things to say about it? Also comparing the product to competition on the market is also part of a review. Typical Macintosh Fanboys flaming anyone with anything negative to say about their precious Apple goods.

The reviewer also states it's his opinion that the eraser head pointing device is better.

icruise · May 19, 2006, 01:21 PM

It's a bad review because he's using something that is not typical -- a defective machine. How on earth can his experiences with this machine be useful in helping people form an opinion about the MacBook? Sure, receiving a defective machine is disturbing from the point of view of Q&A, and it should certainly be mentioned. But you don't go ahead and use the defective machine as the basis of your review! You get it replaced and then do your review.

amazing · May 19, 2006, 02:42 PM

Ethics for Reviewers 101 Basics: Don't review a defective product. Get a replacement, review that, and add a note to the effect that the first sample shipped was defective, but that you got a prompt replacement. Which he would have, had he just picked up the phone...

Reminds me of the "flaking" black MB threads: nobody else has been able to replicate that. Nobody else has found anything remotely like that. So what's that say about the original poster?

RadarBob2 · May 19, 2006, 11:37 PM

it's a bad review because the reviewer has negative things to say about it?

No. because he doesn't know what he's talking about. And he says so. He hadn't used a mac in 6 years. So all he has to offer is "here's what it looks like" and "the one I bought got too hot and quit working." OK. but he had nothing to say that gave me any insight to the new macBook.

Oh, I'm not a Fanboy. I'm a tried and true 120% Macintosh fanatic. I've been using and programming computers since 1975. I became one of the Mac faithful the instant I saw my first Macintosh in 1984 and about 1985 I decided PCs, as in "IBM compatable micro computers running MS DOS and later, Windows", suck rocks. Nothing since then has given me cause to change my mind.

My bias aside, I stand by my statement. The "review" was useless and poinless. What does it tell me about the new MacBook that the author loves the "eraser pointer" on his PC laptop?

RadarBob2 · May 19, 2006, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by amazing

Reminds me of the "flaking" black MB threads: nobody else has been able to replicate that. Nobody else has found anything remotely like that. So what's that say about the original poster?

Being a brand new product he was just reporting what he saw. And it is unusual. That's what these forums are all about - getting the word out. Likewise, the reviewer I skewered made a valuable input by telling us his test machine overheated. Nonetheless to make more out these reports than discrete, isolated incidents is a mistake. But It should put all of us on the alert to watch for trends.

zubro · May 20, 2006, 09:02 AM

Well, this guy is the king that has not removed the "original" stickers from his laptop.
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/12229.jpg
That says enough to me about his kind of person.
;o)

HarriganC · May 20, 2006, 09:21 AM

Wow, thinkpad's are hideous.

donovan · May 20, 2006, 09:45 AM

Hello, I frequent NotebookReview and I'd like to post my take on the subject, in fact, that's the main reason I registered here, and I hope to clear a few things up...

First off, as he clearly stated, both in the title and part of the review itself, it was a 'First Thoughts' review, it was incomplete, yet he wrote up his initial impressions due to the large demand for information about this notebook. It was not a complete all-encompassing review, it was simply a look at the design and build as well as the most noticable features the MacBook has to offer. He clearly stated at the end that he would have a full review up in a few weeks, and clearly stated at the beginning that he had only had the notebook for twenty-four hours and thus could not write a complete review yet.

I reiterate, this is not a review, it is simply a preview, a glimpse at a mere fraction of what's to come.

He states that he hoped this was a defective machine, as a well-working laptop should not run even close to that hot. He may very well go out and get a new one for the complete review, you don't know, and neither do I.

Many users have reported problems with heat on the MacBook, I certainly hope your love for a company, which I full well understand, isn't clouding your judgement about this blatant malfunction, that is, wether it is an isolated defect or a widespread problem that needs to be fixed, just as the MacBook Pro had the same.

When I first saw the specs released for the MacBook, I thought that, with the integrated graphics as well as Apple's previous experience with this, it wouldn't happen again. Though, judging from various other initial reviews and posters on this forum as well as others, it has indeed recurred.

Abaxter, if you just skimmed through the review, as many do, that is the name of the writer, is someone who I hold in high esteem for his past reviews as well as his work around the NotebookReview forums. He is a very helpful and polite person, and I certainly hate seeing his name tarnished because of a simple misunderstanding.

I also certainly hate seeing the name of my favorite website being tarnished along with his. NotebookReview is an excellent website, offering generally unbiased and very informative reviews, as well as nice previews, constant technical news updates, along with a little blurb on tech product deals, as well as an excellent userbase full of many very helpful people. I love the site and post there often so I hope you can see where I'm coming from, seeing as many of you feel the same about this site, I'm sure.

I hope I cleared a few things up, and I'll be checking in often if anyone has any questions or rebuttals to what I had to say.

My best regards,
Reize

icruise · May 20, 2006, 10:07 AM

I think part of the problem may just be the reviewer's inexperience with the Macintosh. Kernel panics are quite rare and to get two in the first couple of hours of using the machine is a sign that something is very very wrong. It could be something as simple as bad RAM, or it could be something more serious.

The heat issue is, I think, separate from the crashing, although it is certainly a serious issue as well. I can't recall ever hearing of heat causing a Mac portable to have kernel panics, and if the heat were truly excessive then the computer would have just shut off.

I imagine that a lot of the reactions you're seeing in this thread are not so much to the review itself, but to some of the comments that people made about it, both on the site's forums and elsewhere. People saying things like "I knew Macs crashed just as much as PCs!" is a little annoying when we as Mac users realize that the reviewer's experience was anything but typical.

icruise · May 20, 2006, 10:11 AM

Oh, and the "trackpoint" pointing devices are indeed the spawn of the devil.

Seriously, I had two PC laptops with them and aside from the fact that they can't compare (in my opinion) to a good trackpad in terms of usability, after a while they start drifting on their own.

donovan · May 20, 2006, 10:20 AM

His reletive inexperience with recent Macs will present a bit of a handicap to his review, especially as opposed to his others in which his understanding of the machine he was reviewing was very high, so I understand your views on that, however, since Notebook Review encompasses any and all laptops, since the vast majority of those aren't Mac-based, we're simply giving out the best we could at the time being, that's my take on the subject anyway.

Wether it was the heat or something else that caused the crashing, I'm entirely unsure myself, I hope you see where he's coming from with the sequence of events. the notebook gets extremely hot and soon an error pops up notifying him of said error and the laptop then crashes. I myself would think the heat had something to do with it, especially because of the aforementioned inexperience.

I completely understand where you're coming from, having a large amount of experience with something then seeing others scoff at it when the slightest problem arises can be very annoying. However, since it is a forum people's opinions, both for and against Apple, as well as indifferent, will be posted, and as long as they're not hostile there really isn't much you can do about it and I'm sure you understand this.

As for the trackpoints, I'm really indifferent, I often find myself switching between trackpad, point and mouse while using and I can't really tell the difference in functionality. The trackpoint can be a bit more friendly to people who move the mouse around extremely often though, but I feel the trackpad and mouse are a bit more accurate. In the end it's all opinion of course.

icruise · May 20, 2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Reize

I completely understand where you're coming from, having a large amount of experience with something then seeing others scoff at it when the slightest problem arises can be very annoying. However, since it is a forum people's opinions, both for and against Apple, as well as indifferent, will be posted, and as long as they're not hostile there really isn't much you can do about it and I'm sure you understand this.

I don't think anyone expects (or wants) you to do anything about the comments. I'm just trying to explain why some people here may have gotten a bit nastier than might have been called for. Plus, as Mac users, we are often required to defend our choice of OS, and that can make us a bit defensive at times. But I think reviews from Windows users are actually very good things to have, and I don't think I or anyone else wants to discourage that. I hope the reviewer gets his problems solved and finds out why we like these machines so much.

amazing · May 20, 2006, 10:51 AM

Reize: if I understand you correctly, you're saying that an experienced and reputable review website got a relative Mac neophyte to review a Mac and an operating system that he had no experience with. He is qualified to review Windows machines, and this somehow qualifies him to review a new Macbook and OS X. You're also saying that the editorial staff (assuming it has an editorial staff?) saw no problem either with this scenario, or with his posting a review of either a defective laptop or of his inept handling of the operating system, which provoked multiple kernal panics.

Please imagine the reverse scenario, where a Mac expert user, but no recent experience with any Windows before Windows 95, reviews a new Windows XP laptop with lots of buzz and provokes multiple blue screens of death, then goes on to imply that the new model laptop is defective, along with many other disparaging remarks.

And your feeling still is that this is a reputable review website? That this wasn't yellow journalism?

donovan · May 20, 2006, 11:03 AM

Of the higher-ups on Notebook Review, I believe only a handful of them, probably 3 or 4 use Macs often, perhaps the others were busy reviewing other products and since the demand was high for this one they decided that it would be all right to at least somewhat showcase it by a reputable past reviewer. An alternate scenario would be that he went out and got it on his own, which is a very real possibility as well.

Notebook Review is a community site, and the members are encouraged to review laptops on their own, and thus, NBR releases several reviews of different laptops, there really is no 'main' one. It is this way, in my opinion at least, because everyone has different opinions and are looking for different things, having different reviews that may focus on one aspect more than another may help someone and thus they keep it that way, that's just my thoughts on the subject...

I'm not sure if this is correct, but are you saying that the reviewer said it was an entirely defective line? Quite to the contrary, he hopes he got a malfunctioning product, and states that he sees this as a good opportunity to test Apple's customer service and take note of it in his full review.

I'm quite positive this isn't sensationalism, I'm quite sure that it's just one person's chronicalled experience and their opinions of it just as every other review on NBR is.

kw14 · May 20, 2006, 11:19 AM

I read the review. I thought he did a darn good job. Even being a windows user, he appeared to have given an open minded review. I tend to feel that his view and experience probably reflect that of newbies or non-power mac users out there. So [amazing], I disagree with you. I think his viewpoint is just as valid as long as he is trueful with his information.

SIRSALE · May 20, 2006, 11:49 AM

I'd like to second that. I thought the article was an interesting read, and that the writer gave a honest and thorough account of his impressions of the MB so far. Considering that he was so clear about this being a "first impressions" and the possibility that the heat problem could be just his unit, I can't see any reason why the article shouldn't have been published.

rpd2005 · May 20, 2006, 12:47 PM

I think the reviewer did a good job. He reported the experience he had, and that is what I want to know.

RadarBob2 · May 20, 2006, 02:48 PM

Geez. I'm sorry I brought it up now.

Anyway here are a couple of more prelim. reviews. The first link is about running windoze xp on the new macbook. Hmmm... matte black MacBook running on the Dark Side. I think I'll name mine (if I get one I mean) Darth Trator.

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/05...dson/index.php

http://www.macworld.com/2006/05/firs...irst/index.php

IMHO these are much better reviews. Their knowledge of macintosh shows.

donovan · May 20, 2006, 03:08 PM

However, you're comparing a review (the latter was complete enough to be considered thus) to an incomplete preview, which is just unfair. He wrote that after handling the laptop for 24-hours just to settle the masses wanting to see it and learn a bit more, not to critique every aspect of it. Once it is finished it'll be much better.

Just to nitpick, in the first review, he mentioned you couldn't have OS X run on a Windows-Based PC, which is incorrect, it's possible, though a bit of a difficult process and not nearly as clean cut as boot camp, but it functions just as well. It's not entirely legal, but the matter of legality was not discussed in that part, he simply said you cannot.

harrisjamieh · May 20, 2006, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Reize

It's not at all legal, but the matter of legality was not discussed in that part, he simply said you cannot.

Fixed.

andreas_g4 · May 20, 2006, 03:17 PM

Thx for the pix.

RadarBob2 · May 20, 2006, 03:19 PM

OS X running on a PC? Interesting. How? Links?

As for legalities, If one has legally purchased said PC, Windows XP, and OS X software, where's the criminality in it?

harrisjamieh · May 20, 2006, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by RadarBob2

OS X running on a PC? Interesting. How? Links?

Links? No, its illegal, and someone posting a link as to how to do it could also be classed as illegal (im not sure)

donovan · May 20, 2006, 03:34 PM

It's illegal because Apple specifically states that, a copy of Mac OS X or any previous versions are not to be run on a Windows based platform. I'm not sure exactly where, but it would be in the EULA, or, End User License Agreement, which states what you can and cannot do with this company's product, in this case, software. It is generally a staple on big company softwares.

manasgajare · May 20, 2006, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Reize

Hello, I frequent NotebookReview and I'd like to post my take on the subject, in fact, that's the main reason I registered here, and I hope to clear a few things up...

be honest...you're the guy who wrote the review aren't you...

shame on you sir.

donovan · May 20, 2006, 07:04 PM

No, I did not write the review, and even if I had written it, my points would have still been valid.

This is my profile on NBR:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/member.php?u=24724

This is the reviewer's:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/member.php?u=2

Why, pray tell, did you assume I wrote the review simply because I introduced myself as a member of NBR? There are a total of 32,019 members of NBR and that numbers grows every day.

RadarBob2 · May 20, 2006, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Reize

No, I did not write the review, and even if I had written it, my points would have still been valid.

This is my profile on NBR:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/member.php?u=24724

I like your ad-rotator of grammar stuff and things. i.e. neat, etc.

"21.23 posts per day." When do you find time for homework?

hadocon · May 20, 2006, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Icruise

Oh, and the "trackpoint" pointing devices are indeed the spawn of the devil.

Seriously, I had two PC laptops with them and aside from the fact that they can't compare (in my opinion) to a good trackpad in terms of usability, after a while they start drifting on their own.

Just a tidbit of info: I study under the guy (@ MIT) that invented the trackpoint (Ted Selker)... Any messages that you want me to pass on to him?

donovan · 01:54 AM

Thanks.

Heh, I don't have much homework and I'm usually off and on the forums from when I get home until later that night, just reload the main page and if anything interesting pops up I post.

EDIT:

After checking up on the descussion thread on NBR, I noticed that Abaxter had responded showing how things had worked out:

Originally Posted by Abaxter

Okay, well I did get the MacBook exchanged which is good. The folks at the Apple Store were very good about it. I'm using the new one right now and no crashes (Kernel panic).

It does however run hot. My girlfriend is a Mac user and has verified it runs hotter than her PowerBook G4. I know the manual says this should not be used on the lap, but to me that's silly since I use a ThinkPad on my lap often and when in a crunch, say at the airport, there's no other option but to place it in your lap. Sitting on the couch with a laptop is a favorite past time as well, I couldn't do it with the MacBook -- too hot.

Sorry if I offended any Mac users, it's not my aim. We have two more people that are longtime Mac users submitting reviews next week so maybe their opinion will be taken better. Again, I only published this since I wanted to get a first impression out there and focused on the design -- not the OS. I stated I don't know the OS and only implied I need to learn and thanks to many helpful posts and emails all those little things I'm used to doing in Windows I am now learning.

Socially Awkward Solo · May 21, 2006, 02:05 AM

I don't see why everyone is getting mad at the reviewer. He had all valid points and obviously a defective product.

icruise · May 21, 2006, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by hadocon

Just a tidbit of info: I study under the guy (@ MIT) that invented the trackpoint (Ted Selker)... Any messages that you want me to pass on to him?

Haha. No, not particularly. The main advantage of the trackpoint is that it can be used in a smaller space than a trackpad, and you don't have to move your hands from the keyboard. The true subnotebooks often use them for this reason. I just don't happen to like them very much. Your finger gets tired after extended use and I find it makes large movements of the cursor harder than with a trackpad. And on both of the machines that I owned, the trackpad developed a "drift" after a while where the cursor would sometimes move on its own. I haven't had any problems with trackpads. I feel like I can move the cursor with the trackpad without thinking about it too much, but somehow the trackpoint seems a bit more deliberate. I also like being able to "tap click" instead of using the button. I do think the trackpoint is a bit more precise for very fine movements, though.

manasgajare · May 21, 2006, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Icruise

Oh, and the "trackpoint" pointing devices are indeed the spawn of the devil.

Originally Posted by hadocon

I study under the guy (@ MIT) that invented the trackpoint (Ted Selker)... Any messages that you want me to pass on to him?

Originally Posted by Icruise

I do think the trackpoint is a bit more precise for very fine movements, though.

shameless back-pedaling.

icruise · May 21, 2006, 11:03 AM

Shameless ignoring of my winking smiley...

RadarBob2 · May 21, 2006, 07:23 PM

ust a tidbit of info: I study under the guy (@ MIT) that invented the trackpoint (Ted Selker)... Any messages that you want me to pass on to him?

Yeah, tell him, "nice try."

RadarBob2 · May 21, 2006, 08:18 PM

Sorry if I offended any Mac users,

rest assured, you did not offend me.

amazing · May 22, 2006, 10:36 AM

I wouldn't have any objections to his review if he'd have exchanged the defective laptop and then written the review. You just don't review a defective laptop and rush the review to a website.

There's always gonna be defective laptops, luck of the draw--so you exchange it, note that the first one you got had to be returned but that Apple was great about exchanging it, then you write the review. Seriously bad ethics to do it any other way. And yes, he does have good points and insights, but they're all overshadowed by lack of judgment.

donovan · May 22, 2006, 11:43 AM

Amazing; again, it was not a review, it was a preview commenting on the build looks, etc. and his first experiences with the machine. It was a preview nothing more, nothing less.

A lot of people were interested in the notebook, so he basically posted some comments on it and a lot of pictures so that peoples' appetites for information could be soothed until he had time to complete it.

icruise · May 22, 2006, 12:07 PM

Not to be pedantic, but it was called a "first thoughts review." That does imply that some sort of judgement will be made, and it did seem to go a little beyond just a first look. Generally previews or "first look" articles focus more on features and appearance, while leaving things like performance, stability, etc to wait until after the reviewer has spent more time with the product. I feel that this is particularly important given that the reviewer was writing for an audience that is not really familiar with the Mac.

It seems pretty clear that he was eager to get the article out there while it would still seem fresh, and I can certainly understand that. And reviews written by individual users for an enthusiast site like this one or yours don't really need to be help to the same standards that you might have for a review on a major commercial site or magazine.

manasgajare · May 22, 2006, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Reize

Amazing; again, it was not a review, it was a preview.

Listen...just tell your cousin not to do it again, and we'll let him slide this time.

gadger · May 23, 2006, 04:52 AM

Granted that the reviewer did not know much about the Mac, but the TrackPoint is indeed the best pointing device ever.. and not just any TrackPoint, ONLY the ThinkPad TrackPoint.

Originally Posted by HarriganC

Wow, thinkpad's are hideous.

Better than girlish and handicapped...

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...87#post2947787

donovan · May 23, 2006, 11:38 AM

Icruise; I understand what you mean, but just a misconception because of choice of words isn't something to argue about, to be clear I'm not speaking of you I'm speaking of others. I'm curious, would you have rather he not commented at all on his problems and simply said nothing of possible errors a Macbook user may have? I'm not partial to either platform I'm even planning on getting a Macbook since that would give me a very portable balance between the two OSes, without it being illegal.

However, it seems as though people here don't like to hear even constructive criticism to Apple's products, even if there is something wrong with them. I understand that this was a defective product, but what's wrong with commenting on what happens should you get a defective one, I myself think that would help people recognize that it was an inherent problem, and not something that they did.

Baron; your accusations are unfounded and uninformed, you're assuming because I'm defending someone whom I respect that I'm somehow related to them. I really think that's uneeded.

icruise · May 23, 2006, 11:59 AM

You might want to read some of the other threads around here to see just how ready we are to criticize Apple's products. We are often Apple's biggest fans and their biggest critics all at once. No one said he should keep the problems a secret. It's really a question of how and when they are presented. In any case, I think we can just let the matter drop.

SkaGoat · May 23, 2006, 12:12 PM

The fact that the reviewer's thinkpad still has the stickers on it says nothing about him. Or his knowledge of computers. I know I would keep, the Centrino and ATi sticker... not so sure about the Windows sticker though.

My only problem with the Macworld reviews is Macworld is a biased source for a review. At least at NotebookReview.com it'll get compared in a fair way. I'm sure when the official review comes out it'll be with a non-defective piece.

jere_69 · May 23, 2006, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by zubro

Well, this guy is the king that has not removed the "original" stickers from his laptop.
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/12229.jpg
That says enough to me about his kind of person.
;o)

What does that tell you?

jsousa · May 23, 2006, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by angelp

What does that tell you?

It tells me that he doesn't care if his computer looks like crap. It makes me equally mad as it does when I'm vacuming the carpet to keep my '89 Oldsmobile looking clean and in good condition as some jerk hops in his black Bimmer that hasn't been washed in 2 months
(and he is a jerk since we are both students and theirs no way his mommy and daddy didn't buy that for him).

donovan · May 24, 2006, 11:40 AM

Icruise; I'm sincerely curious, what was so wrong about how he relayed the product's problems? This was just his first experience, and he will probably say that the product he recieved at first was a defect and this new one is fine, that is, he will in his final review.

jdrumstick; I don't understand your logic. Maybe he prefers the stickers to stay on because he likes how it looks. There's no need to throw out names because of what you assume from a simple picture of his machine. The first three letters of the word assumption serve more than one purpose. Just because you think a student can't have impulse control doesn't mean it's true, he may very well have saved up and bought that himself, I'm fifteen years old and I'm currently saving up to buy a laptop, it's not very difficult if you know how to allocate your money and not to waste it.

icruise · May 24, 2006, 12:11 PM

Ugh, frankly I am sick of this whole discussion. Can't you just let it go, Reize? I think I've been pretty patient in explaining the reasons behind people's reactions.