[Hawkeye_a]

Just speculation here.....

But after having a little hands on experience with an iMacCD, there's a lot of room to implement a heck of a lot of eye candy.

Now, we have Cheeta and Vista on the horizon. both boasting a 3D desktop, but no meaningful 3D UI yet. When Apple released Lisa/Macintosh, there were guidelines that were mplemented in the UI. (single click does this, double click this, menus at the top of the screen, trashcan fucntionality, folders, etc) none of which had been seen before (stuff Micorosft copied).

It is my opinion that Apple is using the QE foundation they laid out, to develop a 3D UI and the rules that govern it. So when Vista comes out...not having any clue how to harness a 3D desktop to it's fullest, along comes the latest version of MacOSX, with a 3D desktop, and then some. but thats just my opinion.

I hate to have to mention this here, but if youre wondering what possible interface could be used to control a 3D UI..... have a look at that controller Nintendo just introduced. it is for all essential purposes a 3D pointing device. so some variant of that could be implemented for personal computers imo.

Lets face it, UIs have remained for the most part unchanged. Aqua is a great improvement in that it went from a 'bitmapped' based UI to a vector based, which is really cool. but the obvious next step is 3D. how? when? ur guess is as godo as mine. but i dont think Apple or Microsoft would be implementing 3D desktops if they didnt plan on harnessing it to it's fullest....a 3D UI.

Cheers

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Now, we have Cheeta and Vista on the horizon.

Just to pick nits: Cheetah was 10.0.

[goMac]

I don't think we're going to have 3D interfaces. Rather I think we're going to have dynamic interfaces that leverage OpenGL. Unfortunately Quartz isn't in a state to really do this. We need the GUI rendered side by side with OpenGL for this to really work. Quartz has been great but it's looking old compared to Vista.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally Posted by theolein

I'm no fan of Microsoft. I wish I didn't have to worry about Windows, but I do, as Microsoft is still very popular in the enterprise and that won't change in a hurry.

That has zero to do with the UI. Nor any other whizbang feature. Windows enterprise monopoly is almost entirely depedent on MS Office. Lots of enterprises would love to give up on Windows as a platform, but they can't so long as everyone has to have Office.

That said, more brain cycles spent on developing the Office killer and less spent on the "3D GUI of the Future" please!!

/rant

[11011001]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

(not Quartz Compositor, Quartz Composer). You can do everything that was shown in the original video with zero lines of code on Mac OS X Tiger today.

I still consider laying out all the patches in Quartz Composer coding, it's just that it's visual instead of text based.

Furthermore, rendering to a patch in Quartz Composer won't allow the interface events from the mouse to carry through. I think one would at least need to subclass a view, to get it's events, and then forward through quartz composer to convert them to the coordinate space of the controls.

It's possible, but it's not simple.

[goMac]

You can't use interface widgets inside a Quartz composer document. Vista can use Widgets inside it's sparkle documents. In fact, it can even modify widget behavior.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by theolein

You should take a look at the video of the sparkle tool for UI design on Channel9 ( http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=115387 ).

That was boring, but the tool is quite nice, I give you that. A lot of that stuff can be done today on Mac with Quartz Composer. Quartz Composer needs improvement, Interface Builder definitely needs improvement, 3D and 2D GUI elements need better integration. All true. But considering that Tiger is shipping and working since 9 months already, it does very well against what is promised in Windows for the end of 2006.

[11011001]

Originally Posted by goMac

You can't use interface widgets inside a Quartz composer document. Vista can use Widgets inside it's sparkle documents. In fact, it can even modify widget behavior.

Exactly, you have to render your interface to an image to use it in Quartz Composer.

Which is why I have found it a little disappointing. All it's really useful for is visualization. To make controls or anything like that in it, you have to basically rewrite them from scratch.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Just to pick nits: Cheetah was 10.0.

Oh yeah i meant Leapord..... sheesh too many cats.

Cheers

[theolein]

Originally Posted by 11011001

Exactly, you have to render your interface to an image to use it in Quartz Composer.

Which is why I have found it a little disappointing. All it's really useful for is visualization. To make controls or anything like that in it, you have to basically rewrite them from scratch.

I wouldn't call Quatz Composer dissapointing at all. It gives the people who do VJ'ing a free and powerful application to integrate visuals with audio. It's fantastic. It's also a perfect target audience for Apple who is more focused on content creation than MS is. The dumb thing about QC is that it's in the developer tools section, where most content people don't look. Apple doesn't advertise it either. Man, I remember back in the OS9 days, people were paying thousands for VJ software and visula patch creation stuff like this. There is a tool for Classic MacOS, called Nato, which used to cost around $500 and it was incredibly painful to use and couldn't do a tenth of what QC can.

That is one of the reasons I really like OSX. You get a lot of bang for your buck. Free dev tools and free content creation tools. Windows doesn't compare (although you can stock it up to a simialr level if you know where and how)

[- - e r i k - -]

3D UI on a flat 2D surface? What's with the nonsense dreaming? People already tire from using controllers they can rest against, what makes you think using 3d-controllers in the air would be like (even if we had true 3d displays).

Less dreaming, more practical approaches thank you.

[Chuckit]

My thoughts exactly, Erik. I can't imagine how a third dimension would make organization or usability better. It might look cool, but if it were actually anything but eye candy, it would be annoying as hell.

[Goldfinger]

Thirded: 3D interfaces are useless gimmicks that kill all usability.

[Salty]

I could see 3D being done on a 2D screen if you maintain the same perspective, but I don't see how it could be terribly useful. I imagine only in apps that need to design something in 3D space.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by theolein

You should take a look at the video of the sparkle tool for UI design on Channel9 ( http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=115387 ). The WPF is very good, and you really can do things there that are not easily possible now with Quartz (It's not because of the XML, but because of the engine). However, GoMac is flamebaiting you because you fall for it so easily. Windows Vista will be good and it will have certain features that OSX doesn't. How important or useful those features are (such as the 3D GUI stuff) is another question.

I'm no fan of Microsoft. I wish I didn't have to worry about Windows, but I do, as Microsoft is still very popular in the enterprise and that won't change in a hurry.

Thanks, the demo looks nice, although it is not earth-shattering. It looks more like a demo for a menu for a game than anything you would see in a dialog anytime soon.

In principle we do have the same thing with Interface builder (in the sense that you have a description file which is equivalent to source code, object orientation, etc.), although IB cannot do 3d interfaces yet. The performance is also nice, although I do think Apple's implementation is focussed on 2d interfaces. I guess they could do 3d interfaces if they really wanted to …

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by goMac

I don't think we're going to have 3D interfaces. Rather I think we're going to have dynamic interfaces that leverage OpenGL. Unfortunately Quartz isn't in a state to really do this. We need the GUI rendered side by side with OpenGL for this to really work. Quartz has been great but it's looking old compared to Vista.

I agree that 3d interfaces will not be useful anytime soon.

I don't really think Quartz is looking old, though. Just see what Apple does with it and what Microsoft intends to do with Avalon. All theory aside, it's what you do with it.

[11011001]

Does the Vista world have anything like bindings or Core Data? (Which, in my opinion, is far more useful for creating better applications)

[11011001]

Yes, apparently they do. They can use XML databases, and some other ones I am not familiar with. They don't support SQL directly though.

All in all, I find the Vista technology very impressive. It feels like what we have seen from Apple in terms of Quartz Composer is an incomplete technology. No doubt they have been working on it since WWDC and perhaps we will get some of these features.

I hope to see the ability to put standard user interface controls into composer, with the ability to subclass them. I think the timelines would be very nice, and finally, I'd like to see a way to create custom patches (written in actual source code).

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I agree that 3d interfaces will not be useful anytime soon.

My belief is that 3-D interfaces aren't going to be truly useful until we have truly three-dimensional input and display devices. Without these, 3-D interfaces have to waste a lot of time dealing with rotating the display to reveal hidden items, and also using a secondary input device to cover whatever modes of movement the primary input device can't cover.

You might say that the old command line interfaces were an example of a one-dimensional interface: all you had to go on was the length of the line of text you were typing. This worked well with print-based displays, which were similarly line-oriented. You could even call keyboards of the time mostly line-oriented: everything was about typing text on one line. There wasn't even a concept of moving "up" or "down" with these early computer interfaces. When 2-D monitors became the most common display devices, the interface started moving to cover two dimensions, but you'd be surprised how long it took to even get the notion of moving "up" or "down" in lines of text to work well. Set vi to strict compatibility mode and try moving up or down in text, and you'll see what I mean. But eventually keyboards caught up, and then someone at Xerox had a great idea that we now call the mouse. It was really the mouse that made two-dimensional GUIs practical: you can traverse a 2-D GUI using only a keyboard iut it doesn't work well: moving around is too slow.

Right now, 3-D GUIs face a similar problem: our input devices just aren't made for that sort of movement, nor are our display devices really designed to show such things. 2-D GUIs aren't practical with a 1-D input device, and so 3-D GUIs won't be practical with 2-D input devices. It's going to take something at least as revolutionary as the mouse before a true 3-D GUI becomes practical.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by goMac

WinFS is implemented at a file system level. Spotlight is not.

This doesn't make WinFS superior. Quite the opposite, actually: it locks you into the specific filesystem on which it's implemented.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by ambush

XML based Interfaces are just cool, and Apple should really pick up.

They don't give you anything that can't be achieved by other means. XML has little to nothing to do with graphics: it's nothing more than a data storage format.

But if you insist on specifying your GUIs in XML, it's already there for OSX. The GNUStep Renaissance project does exactly this, and it's been 100% pure Cocoa from the very beginning. It can even be made to work with PyObjC, allowing for truly cross-platform Cocoa applications without even the need for a recompile.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Millennium

This doesn't make WinFS superior. Quite the opposite, actually: it locks you into the specific filesystem on which it's implemented.

It's not anymore. MS changed it to an implementation on top of NTFS. Check the link I've posted for details.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Millennium

XML based Interfaces are just cool, and Apple should really pick up.

Here's a Nib-file for you:

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<integer>41</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>11</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>2</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>32</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>25</integer>
</dict>
</array>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>$class</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>41</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>45</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>46</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>47</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>48</integer>
</dict>
</array>
</dict>
<string>NSButton</string>
<string>File's Owner</string>
<string>Window</string>
<string>NSButton1</string>
<dict>
<key>$class</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>41</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array/>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>$class</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>41</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array/>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>$class</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>41</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>2</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>32</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>25</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>11</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>12</integer>
</dict>
</array>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>$class</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>41</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>53</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>54</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>55</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>56</integer>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>57</integer>
</dict>
</array>
</dict>
<integer>1</integer>
<integer>5</integer>
<integer>8</integer>
<integer>7</integer>
<integer>6</integer>
<dict>
<key>$class</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>9</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array/>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>$class</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>41</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array/>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>$class</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>41</integer>
</dict>
<key>NS.objects</key>
<array/>
</dict>
<dict>
<key>$classes</key>
<array>
<string>NSIBObjectData</string>
<string>NSObject</string>
</array>
<key>$classname</key>
<string>NSIBObjectData</string>
</dict>
</array>
<key>$top</key>
<dict>
<key>IB.objectdata</key>
<dict>
<key>CF$UID</key>
<integer>1</integer>
</dict>
</dict>
<key>$version</key>
<integer>100000</integer>
</dict>
</plist>
[/PHP]

Oh my god! It's XML-based! This is so cool I had an orgasm right now. Apple should pick this up.

[greenamp]

Meh, all those bells n whistles in Vista seem to be implemented just for the sake of implementing them, and don't really seem to have any real long-term usable value.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

It's not anymore. MS changed it to an implementation on top of NTFS. Check the link I've posted for details.

It still holds true, really: WinFS locks you into NTFS, the filesystem it's implemented on.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Here's a Nib-file for you:

Um... I'm not sure I understand why your quote says you're replying to me. I didn't post that. I replied to it, though.

Oh my god! It's XML-based! This is so cool I had an orgasm right now. Apple should pick this up.

I'm pretty sure that's not what ambush was talking about. The file you showed was a property list, which is a pretty common data-storage format for Apple to use. What I think Ambush wants, though, is for the XML to directly reflect the GUI's own structure, rather than just storing the data-structure that eventually gets used. In other words, he wants something more along the lines of Mozilla's XUL.

Once again, I point him to the GNUStep Renaissance project. It's been 100% pure Cocoa (and GNUstep) from the very beginning, and it works right now; no need to wait for Apple to specify it. It even manages to score a few interesting additional features like autolayout, though none of these are inherent to the XML file format.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Millennium

I'm pretty sure that's not what ambush was talking about. The file you showed was a property list, which is a pretty common data-storage format for Apple to use.

It is a XML file and ambush wanted it to be XML based for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by Millennium

What I think Ambush wants, though, is for the XML to directly reflect the GUI's own structure, rather than just storing the data-structure that eventually gets used.

The above was a Cocoa-nib. Let's look at a Carbon-nib as well:

[PHP]<?xml version="1.0" standalone="yes"?>
<object class="NSIBObjectData">
<string name="targetFramework">IBCarbonFramework</string>
<object name="rootObject" class="NSCustomObject" id="1">
<string name="customClass">NSApplication</string>
</object>
<array count="3" name="allObjects">
<object class="IBCarbonWindow" id="166">
<string name="windowRect">140 206 500 686 </string>
<string name="title">Window</string>
<object name="rootControl" class="IBCarbonRootControl" id="167">
<string name="bounds">0 0 360 480 </string>
<string name="viewFrame">0 0 480 360 </string>
<array count="1" name="subviews">
<object class="IBCarbonButton" id="180">
<string name="bounds">158 192 178 261 </string>
<string name="viewFrame">192 158 69 20 </string>
<string name="title">Button</string>
</object>
</array>
</object>
<boolean name="receiveUpdates">FALSE</boolean>
<boolean name="liveResize">TRUE</boolean>
<boolean name="compositing">TRUE</boolean>
<boolean name="isConstrained">FALSE</boolean>
</object>
<reference idRef="167"/>
<reference idRef="180"/>
</array>
<array count="3" name="allParents">
<reference idRef="1"/>
<reference idRef="166"/>
<reference idRef="167"/>
</array>
<dictionary count="2" name="nameTable">
<string>File&apos;s Owner</string>
<reference idRef="1"/>
<string>Window</string>
<reference idRef="166"/>
</dictionary>
<unsigned_int name="nextObjectID">181</unsigned_int>
</object>
[/PHP]

It's an XML file that directly reflects the GUI's own structure. Apple is doing for years what you Windows-fanboys claim will be so great about Vista in the future.
Personally I don't see what the big deal for the end user is. As a user I don't give a beep on the file format in which the user interface is described.

[Tomchu]

The point is that you can write your GUIs by hand in Vista, and do it in few lines. You can combine it with some effects, behaviour specs, and other properties simply by adding a few more lines.

Your NIB examples look weak in comparison. I don't see anyone even tweaking that, let alone writing it by hand.

[Chuckit]

Millennium is a Windows fanboy? You sure about that?

[iomatic]

There's always this ridiculous conclusion I've seen lately: "the underpinnings are a geek's wetdream, therefore, it's the best for the end user!"

Hardly. The whole RSS issue with Apple's iPhoto photocasts being non-compliant is such geekery beyond care, that only Zeldman and his OCD ilk give a rip enough to blog about. Bah. It doesn't affect 90% of the people who just simply frickin' use computers, it's akin to masturbatory rambling. As this thread has become

So, back to the OP's question (me): what's the big friggin' deal about Vista?

Anyone?

…

(silence)

…

(cue tumbleweeds)

…

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

It's an XML file that directly reflects the GUI's own structure.

I've never seen that format before, but I'm still not sure that this is what ambush was talking about. It looks like another way of encoding the .plist format. It's still not directly reflecting the GUI's structure, though. Look at the tags: it's talking about objects, arrays, and dictionaries. A format that directly reflected the GUI's structure would be talking about windows, menus, and buttons.

Apple is doing for years what you Windows-fanboys claim will be so great about Vista in the future.

Me? A Windows fanboy? I may be disillusioned concerning Apple, but I haven't gone Windows by any stretch of the imagination. I've already said that I see no real advantage to it; I'm just trying to point out that if ambush wants an XML-based GUI framework for Cocoa, one exists.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Millennium

A format that directly reflected the GUI's structure would be talking about windows, menus, and buttons.

May I shorten and format it for you:

...
<object class="IBCarbonWindow" id="166">
<string name="windowRect">140 206 500 686 </string>
<string name="title">Window</string>
...
<object class="IBCarbonButton" id="180">
<string name="bounds">158 192 178 261 </string>
<string name="viewFrame">192 158 69 20 </string>
<string name="title">Button</string>
</object>
...
</object>
...

That example Nib I made only contains one window with one button (no menu). It directly reflects the GUI in the XML.

[Millennium]

I saw those. Semantically, though, that's not going to be enough for someone talking about an "XML-based GUI". They're going to want to see windows, objects, and such in the actual tag names. Something like the following:
[php]
<IBCarbonWindow id="166">
<windowRect x="140" y="206" width="500" height="686" />
<title>Window</title>
<IBCarbonButton id="180">
<bounds x="158" y="192" width="178" height="261" />
<viewFrame x="192" y="158" width="69" height="20" />
<title>Buttton</title>
</IBCarbonButton>
</IBCarbonWindow>
[/php]
Again, I am not advocating that GUIs be done this way, or that they be done in this particular format; I'm only attempting to provide an illustration of the sort of thing that ambush is talking about.

Incidentally, this is what a gsmarkup file for the sort of GUI you described would look like. I am assuming that the button's action will be to close the window, and that you want Renaissance to lay out the window and button automatically:
[php]
<gsmarkup>
<objects>
<window title="Window" id="166">
<button title="Button" id="180" action="performClose:" target="#166">
</window>
</objects>
</gsmarkup>
[/php]
Here is a similar window in the humble Tk scripting language. This isn't Cocoa, though it wouldn't be impossible to do this with some kind of Tk/Cocoa binding:
[php]#!/software/tk/bin/wish -f
wm title . "hi!"
button .hello -text "Hello, World!" -command exit
pack .hello
[/php]

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Millennium

They're going to want to see windows, objects, and such in the actual tag names. Something like the following:

<IBCarbonWindow id="166">

OK, so this:

<IBCarbonWindow id="166">

is insanely great and this:

<object class="IBCarbonWindow" id="166">

is lame? Sorry, I don't understand enough about XML to see a difference that matters somehow. Tomchu want's to "hand code" the UI; he's got to be kidding. Everybody will want to use visual tools to design the graphical user interface. And you can hand-tweak the Cocoa and the Carbon-nib if you'd want to. It's not impossible to understand.

Also note: Don't Invent XML Languages. When a property list does the job for a Cocoa-nib, it does the job. Apple had perfectly good reasons not to invent a new XML language for it.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

OK, so this:

<IBCarbonWindow id="166">

is insanely great and this:

<object class="IBCarbonWindow" id="166">

is lame? Sorry, I don't understand enough about XML to see a difference that matters somehow.

There isn't really much of a difference. It's just a matter of whether you want to create an XML format specific to coding GUIs, or use one that can serialize objects in a more generic form. Generally when people talk about "XML-based GUIs", they're talking about the former: an XML format specific to making GUIs.

At no point have I advocated this concept. I'm just trying to point out what they're talking about.

Tomchu want's to "hand code" the UI; he's got to be kidding. Everybody will want to use visual tools to design the graphical user interface. And you can hand-tweak the Cocoa and the Carbon-nib if you'd want to. It's not impossible to understand.

I agree with you, to be honest. There's nothing saying you couldn't do this with an XML-based format either, but why fix what isn't broken? When I mentioned Renaissance, all I wanted to do was point out that the option already exists on OSX. I don't necessarily agree with it any more than you do. What on Earth are we arguing for?

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Millennium

What on Earth are we arguing for?

I just want to understand when people say "XML-based UI is soooo coool!" why they think that is so. When I understand maybe I chime in, but to be hones with you I believe they are falling for buzzwords.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I agree that 3d interfaces will not be useful anytime soon.

I don't really think Quartz is looking old, though. Just see what Apple does with it and what Microsoft intends to do with Avalon. All theory aside, it's what you do with it.

Asside from the movie sucking, I thought whoever did the visual effects for Minority Report had it just right. I can see GUIs going that way.

I think there was even an article or something on that at one point.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Asside from the movie sucking, I thought whoever did the visual effects for Minority Report had it just right. I can see GUIs going that way.

I think there was even an article or something on that at one point.

Dunno about that kind of GUI. Like someone said before: I wouldn't want to keep my hands up in the air all of the time to do stuff. Unless you still have a mouse but just a "Minority Report" theme, that would be cool because it looked pretty snazzy.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Dunno about that kind of GUI. Like someone said before: I wouldn't want to keep my hands up in the air all of the time to do stuff.

Nintendo seems to think people will want to.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Asside from the movie sucking, I thought whoever did the visual effects for Minority Report had it just right. I can see GUIs going that way.

I think there was even an article or something on that at one point.

While interesting, I don't think the idea of a transparent screen would be all that appealing. Perhaps someday, but we are decades away from that type of screen becoming commonplace.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Nintendo seems to think people will want to.

When playing games. Video game UI is normally more involved than a UI that's meant for work or even just casual activity.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It still holds true, really: WinFS locks you into NTFS, the filesystem it's implemented on.

No, the claim was that WinFS is a filesystem as opposed to spotlight which is implemented on top of a filesystem.

Both are implemented on top of a filesystem. Whether you particularly tie this to a specific filesystem does not matter at all.

[goMac]

How would you say... code... without a UI?

[Brass]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

No, the claim was that WinFS is a filesystem as opposed to spotlight which is implemented on top of a filesystem.

Both are implemented on top of a filesystem. Whether you particularly tie this to a specific filesystem does not matter at all.

It would matter if you wanted to use a file system which it was not tied to. Doesn't worry me though, as I always just use the default OS file system.

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by goMac

WinFS is implemented at a file system level. Spotlight is not.

To be fair, Microsoft has already released Spotlight for Windows XP, Microsoft Desktop Search. It stacks onto NTFS like Spotlight and doesn't actually implement WinFS.

Bzzt. Wrong. Have you read Ars Technica? Metadata and more has been implemented. And WinFS isn't actually a new filesystem.

[- - e r i k - -]

Calling it WinFS still is a bit of a misnomer now isn't it?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ryaxnb

Bzzt. Wrong. Have you read Ars Technica? Metadata and more has been implemented. And WinFS isn't actually a new filesystem.

Right. This was also caught above, I just hadn't heard this detail.

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by goMac

Not here. Powerbook G4 1.25. Minimize a movie to the dock and the minimized window just locks up and won't maximize. The OS has been reinstalled a few times due to a failed drive.

Sometimes it works for me sometimes it doesn't. Depends.

[11011001]

Maybe this XML thing is such a big thing for the Windows people, because they are use to expressing a lot of their interfaces in code. I know this would be a big thing for Java if it natively supported it (I know there are 3rd party solutions).

[ambush]

I was talking about svg style or XUL style. Something open.

And open keyedobjects.nib, you'll see what I mean.