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Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

And you don't understand rhetorical humour.

No, apparently I've missed it.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

If you're right, then this problem is much more recent.

Growing up, I was under the impression that this had been a problem for a while.

No, this type of thing started before I entered HS and became worse after I'd left. It's taken 20-25 years to come to a head, and now it's out of control.

Doofy · Nov 7, 2006, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

It started when society became more litigious, and parents found they could get a free ride by suing the schools.

That's one part of it, but I'm sure it actually started happening over here before the litigation society took hold (it took a while longer to kick in over here).

I can't pin it down, but I have a feeling that it's a lot to do with a shift towards leftist politics and the associated "softly softly" approach to crime. For example, certain councils rewarding troublesome kids with holidays abroad or days at the karting track (this kind of thing has been going on since the early 90's here).

I remember back in about '92 when the chick I was seeing was attending an evening class at a local college. One of her classmates had had her house broken into, all her stuff nicked. This classmate actually said "I feel sorry for them that they've got to steal stuff" or words to that effect. It's that attitude (rather than the "if I catch the little bastards, I'll...") which seems to have contributed to the whole soft approach to bad behaviour and crime.

We need more folks like Sheriff Joe.

Doofy · Nov 7, 2006, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

No, apparently I've missed it.

Question mark at the end of "Clinton got in" followed by "I've no idea", in case you were wondering.

Y3a · Nov 7, 2006, 03:07 PM

as long as the 'cultural immaturity' is allowed to be acceptable behavior, you'll have kids and young adults acting like asses and throwing temper tantrums. had mommy & daddy spanked the pants off the young brat this would have not continued. Today it fashionable to 'go off' instead of dealing with situations in a calm, rational fashion. Responsibility is a close second, and the same brats and immature a$$wholes take no responsibility for being stupid, or wrong. It's always someone elses fault(said in whiney voice).

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Question mark at the end of "Clinton got in" followed by "I've no idea", in case you were wondering.

I was.

forkies · Nov 7, 2006, 03:15 PM

using fear to control others, especially developing children, aint my thing

deomacius · Nov 7, 2006, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by forkies

using fear to control others, especially developing children, aint my thing

Well good for you! Bravo!

OldManMac · Nov 7, 2006, 03:39 PM

Spanking and corporal punishment are just the lazy person's way to influence what a child does. I never have, and never will, understand how a big person hitting a little person teaches a child anything other than that of solving your problems in a violent manner. Violence begets violence, reason begets reason.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by KarlG

Spanking and corporal punishment are just the lazy person's way to influence what a child does. I never have, and never will, understand how a big person hitting a little person teaches a child anything other than that of solving your problems in a violent manner. Violence begets violence, reason begets reason.

and yet, in this climate of "tolerance" and government cracking down on corporal punishment, crime and violence by children is on the rise.

Wonder why that is... hmmm...

I sure don't remember any school shootings when I was growing up.

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 03:49 PM

Once again, corporal punishment isn't the only thing missing from kids lives nowadays.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

Once again, corporal punishment isn't the only thing missing from kids lives nowadays.

True.

The bottom line is, today's parents aren't worth a damn.

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 03:55 PM

Depressing fact.

Y3a · Nov 7, 2006, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by KarlG

Spanking and corporal punishment are just the lazy person's way to influence what a child does. I never have, and never will, understand how a big person hitting a little person teaches a child anything other than that of solving your problems in a violent manner. Violence begets violence, reason begets reason.

Hmmm. You CAN'T REason with a brat 3 year old so what options do you have that won't cause problems later? A "time out" which really IS a lazy persons solution. you are dealing with a smart animal and not a reasoning being. Dogs learn that way. So do cats and other animals. How do YOU get their attention to 'explain' that they are being bad? Sugar?

You are NOT just beating a child for no reason. You are spanking an unruly child to impress on them that it will happen again unless they do what you say. Your reasoning is doomed to failure, and has with MANY parents who are producing brats and worse.

andi*pandi · Nov 7, 2006, 04:01 PM

time outs do work. So does counting. "If you don't wash your hands/come to dinner/put away your toys by the time I count to 3 you'll lose dessert/tv/books/someother thing" he likes.

Sometimes I only have to say 1 and I get the same reaction as a father "adjusting" his belt.

iomatic · Nov 7, 2006, 04:04 PM

Funny, I don't have to hit my children to communicate with them.

deomacius · Nov 7, 2006, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by KarlG

Spanking and corporal punishment are just the lazy person's way to influence what a child does. I never have, and never will, understand how a big person hitting a little person teaches a child anything other than that of solving your problems in a violent manner. Violence begets violence, reason begets reason.

*COUGH*Bullcrap*COUGH*

I speak from my experience as well as the experiences of my friends who were spanked growing up. I've NEVER been in a fight and am not an aggressive or violent person as you claim. Neither are the people I know.

A big person hitting a little person makes clear, in terms a little person can understand, that certain behaviors will result in immediate and clearly negative consequences that will potentially give them pause the next time they think about doing that behavior or like behavior again.

deomacius · Nov 7, 2006, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by iomatic

Funny, I don't have to hit my children to communicate with them.

Funny, every child is different.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

time outs do work. So does counting. "If you don't wash your hands/come to dinner/put away your toys by the time I count to 3 you'll lose dessert/tv/books/someother thing" he likes.

Sometimes I only have to say 1 and I get the same reaction as a father "adjusting" his belt.

For a light infraction, possibly. But not when it's something more serious.

Now, combine the same ultimatum with a swat on the bum, and you have a stronger position.

Doofy · Nov 7, 2006, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by KarlG

a big person hitting a little person

And there we go - the transformation of "slapping" into "hitting" in order to win the argument and make it seem like everyone who slaps their child in order to discipline them is some kind of evil monster.

Doofy · Nov 7, 2006, 04:19 PM

Oh, and to all those saying that the threat of violence is wrong...

...when you go to the pub at night, the only thing stopping your wife from getting raped on a regular basis by the big bloke from the bar next door is his fear of violent retribution (i.e. either your shooting him in the face or Bubba liking him in clinky). You can kid yourselves otherwise, but this is a fact. We're still animals, all said and done - society simply wouldn't function without the threat of violence keeping people in line.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by iomatic

Funny, I don't have to hit my children to communicate with them.

Yeah, we can see how wonderful this generation of children are.

It's strange how I see people commenting, "my kids are great" or "I don't have any problems", etc.. Well, just fill me in on something, just WHO are the parents raising all the bad kids?

It never fails that most modern parents have no clue what their kids are doing, or how to effectively deal with them. In their eyes they are the model of parental control... until their child knifes someone after recess.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

And there we go - the transformation of "slapping" into "hitting" in order to win the argument and make it seem like everyone who slaps their child in order to discipline them is some kind of evil monster.

Yeah, in a previous discussion, I mentioned a "spanking" and somehow it turned into a "beating".

Kr0nos · Nov 7, 2006, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by deomacius

A big person hitting a little person makes clear, in terms a little person can understand, that certain behaviors will result in immediate and clearly negative consequences that will potentially give them pause the next time they think about doing that behavior or like behavior again.

Which is exactly the kind of thing we want to base our "values" around.

Fascism anybody?

Doofy · Nov 7, 2006, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

It never fails that most modern parents have no clue what their kids are doing, or how to effectively deal with them. In their eyes they are the model of parental control... until their child knifes someone after recess.

Cue the local TV news wheeling out the shoebomber's parents who state "he would never do anything like that!". Happens every time.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Oh, and to all those saying that the threat of violence is wrong...

...when you go to the pub at night, the only thing stopping your wife from getting raped on a regular basis by the big bloke from the bar next door is his fear of violent retribution (i.e. either your shooting him in the face or Bubba liking him in clinky). You can kid yourselves otherwise, but this is a fact. We're still animals, all said and done - society simply wouldn't function without the threat of violence keeping people in line.

It's the reason why clubs have bouncers, and the bartender keeps a ballbat behind the bar.

At my favorite pub, the owner is a retired cop, and he keeps a loaded shotgun back there for just such an emergency. Tell ya what, nothing calms a place down faster than the sound of a pump-action 12 gauge.

Rumor · Nov 7, 2006, 04:40 PM

Positive/Negative reinforcement. Some children never need to be punished, or if they do, talking works fine. Some children are so unruly, a swat on the ass is the clearest way to get through to them. Each child is different and requires different methods.

Usually (not always), the children that hardly need negative reinforcement is due to attentive parents.

Motion to move to PL.

Y3a · Nov 7, 2006, 04:42 PM

Once your kid realizes he's not gonna get spanked, or punished you've lost. Putting a kid in his room isn't being punished as he goes into his room when NOT punished. A timeout is BS for the same reason. Just telling yourself that you kid turned out great without hitting leaves them as powerless parents who don't understand the value of a well placed swat on an unruly 2 year olds butt. it will be your grandkids who are the brats.

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Tell ya what, nothing calms a place down faster than the sound of a pump-action 12 gauge.

Calms or clears?

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Y3a

Putting a kid in his room isn't being punished as he goes into his room when NOT punished.

Involuntary confinement is punishment. That's what our entire justice system is based on.

Of course, I'm sure I'm about to hear a gem on that.

deomacius · Nov 7, 2006, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Which is exactly the kind of thing we want to base our "values" around.

Fascism anybody?

Well, in your ideal world, lack of consequences may be enough to keep people in line. In the real world, however, people only stop doing things when there is a negative outcome. Sometimes not even then.

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by deomacius

In the real world, however, people only stop doing things when there is a negative outcome. Sometimes not even then.

Which is why some of us aren't completely sold on corporal punishment.

Rumor · Nov 7, 2006, 05:17 PM

Not even for $5?

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 05:18 PM

Maybe for a klondike bar.

Doofy · Nov 7, 2006, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Not even for $5?

Sold.

iomatic · Nov 7, 2006, 05:38 PM

Funny, you don't see the irony in your own signature:

You reap what you sow.

X2

Originally Posted by deomacius

Funny, every child is different.

iomatic · Nov 7, 2006, 05:39 PM

Maybe… you?

Originally Posted by MacNStein

…Well, just fill me in on something, just WHO are the parents raising all the bad kids?

…

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

Calms or clears?

Calms and clears... clears the people who started the brawl, and calms the ones who didn't.

Rumor · Nov 7, 2006, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by iomatic

Maybe… you?

That's a bit rude.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by iomatic

Maybe… you?

Nope. I have no desire to raise children, especially not the way the world is now.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

That's a bit rude.

I'm used to it from them.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

Involuntary confinement is punishment. That's what our entire justice system is based on.

Of course, I'm sure I'm about to hear a gem on that.

yeah, it doesn't work either.

Doofy · Nov 7, 2006, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I'm used to it from them.

It's confirmation that whatever it is you're doing, you're doing it right.

They time to start worrying is when they stop being rude to you.

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 05:48 PM

Time for canings?

Rumor · Nov 7, 2006, 05:49 PM

I'm partial to taring and feathering.

Doofy · Nov 7, 2006, 05:52 PM

The next village over still has fully functional stocks.

Shaddim · Nov 7, 2006, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

Time for canings?

Occupatinal training for non-violent offenders, and hard labor for the violent ones. Breaking rocks for the duration of their sentence would be good, they'd be too tired to cause mischief.

If a bank robber goes to prison and breaks boulders for 10 years, he'll likely never rob a bank again.

Dakar² · Nov 7, 2006, 05:57 PM

Occupational training?

But I'm fine with rock breaking.

iomatic · Nov 7, 2006, 05:58 PM

Anyone here actually have and love their children, and see them for the human beings they are: new people who make small mistakes that surely needed to be corrected without violence and conversed with like a real person?

Yeah, we can see how wonderful this generation of children are.

So you're lumping people who don't hit their children with what you consider parents of a poorly-raised generation of children? That's called a logical fallacy.

OK, I guess we can see where this is going. Second motion.

Rumor · Nov 7, 2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by iomatic

Anyone here actually have and love their children, and see them for the human beings they are: new people who make small mistakes that surely needed to be corrected without violence and conversed with like a real person?

Yeah, we can see how wonderful this generation of children are.

So you're lumping people who don't hit their children with what you consider parents of a poorly-raised generation of children? That's called a logical fallacy.

OK, I guess we can see where this is going. Second motion.

Read my previous post about positive/negative reinforcement.