[Nicko]

Is this supposed to be the real october surprise?


Bush accepts Iraq-Vietnam echoes
President George W Bush has accepted that the surge in violence in Iraq may be equivalent to America's traumatic experience in the Vietnam War. Mr Bush told ABC News that it could be right to compare Iraq's situation to the 1968 Tet offensive, widely seen as a key turning point in the conflict.
But he denied that the rising number of Iraqi and US military deaths meant the Iraq campaign was failing.
October is on course to be one of the bloodiest months for US forces in Iraq.
So far about 70 troops have died, and with an average of three Americans dying every day this is one of the highest casualty rates sustained by the US military since January 2005.
Psychological blow
In an interview with ABC News, Mr Bush was asked if he agreed with a newspaper columnist who had written that the current fighting in Iraq may be compared to the Tet offensive in Vietnam.

"He could be right," Mr Bush said. "There's certainly a stepped up level of violence and we're heading into an election."
During the Tet offensive, the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese armies launched a combined assault on US positions.
Militarily, the assault failed but it was a huge psychological blow for the Americans and their allies, and eroded political support for the then president, Lyndon Johnson.
Mr Bush appeared to suggest that steadiness of nerve could avoid a repeat of history, says the BBC's Justin Webb in Washington, although any comparison with Vietnam raises eyebrows in the US.
The White House later sought to clarify Mr Bush's comments.
"The full context was that the comparison was about the propaganda waged in the Tet Offensive...and the president was reiterating something he's said before - that the enemy is trying to shake our will," spokeswoman Dana Perino said in a statement.
In the interview, Mr Bush reiterated that US troops would stay despite the casualties.
"Al-Qaeda is still very active in Iraq...They are trying not only to kill American troops but they're trying to foment sectarian violence. They believe that if they can create enough chaos, the American people will grow sick and tired of the Iraqi effort and will cause (the) government to withdraw."
Difficult task
With the latest opinion polls suggesting that Mr Bush's Republican Party faces defeat in next month's mid-term congressional elections, the president is doing his best to fight his corner, our correspondent says.
The enemy defined success or failure by the number of casualties, Mr Bush said.
His definition was whether Iraqis could defend themselves, whether schools were being built, hospitals being opened.
"I define success or failure as whether we're seeing a democracy grow in the heart of the Middle East."
Pulling out troops from Iraq would be the equivalent of surrender, he said.
"I'm patient. I'm not patient forever...But I recognise the degree of difficulty of the task, and therefore say to the American people we won't cut and run."

[Spliffdaddy]

could you please highlight where Dubya used the word 'quagmire'

I ain't seeing it.

Seems strange that Dubya would say it's a quagmire *and* "he denied that the rising number of Iraqi and US military deaths meant the Iraq campaign was failing"

sort of contradicts the quagmire thing.

so would you kindly point out the word "quagmire" for me?

kthanks

Until now I assumed that you couldn't succeed if you had a quagmire going on.

[analogika]

Great argument, Spliffy.

No, really - it's like claiming that a lie ain't a lie if it's called "untruth" or "failure to disclose".

Or a swamp ain't a swamp if the map says it's "marshlands".

Cunning logic, and real intellectual weight, there.

Now pass that joint.

[- - e r i k - -]

Translation: Well, it's going to sh't, but we're so deep in it we have to keep swimming to stay afloat.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Translation: Well, it's going to sh't, but we're so deep in it we have to keep swimming to stay afloat.

Exactly! Stay the course! Keep treading.

[Spliffdaddy]

I haven't seen a joint since....well, it's been many months.

Furthermore, there is a difference between marshlands and swamps. You can build a retail center or a shopping mall on a swamp - but if you try to do it on a marshland then the eco-weenies will throw a hissy fit and the EPA will jail you.

And there's never been a time in human history where a success was described as a quagmire. Well, not until Nicko did it.

[marden]

I guarantee that liberal tactics in opposition to ANY US military action will result in this result. It is the liberal protests and the enemy's cooperation that produced these results. Congratulations. You'll get JUST the results you wanted. Then I can sit back and pop the popcorn while you celebrate the just rewards you will have brought upon yourselves...and ALL of us.

Useful Idiots: Islam’s Best Soldiers
FrontPage magazine.com :: Useful Idiots: Islam�s Best Soldiers by Amil Imani

[- - e r i k - -]

That propaganda-article didn't sway us the last three hundred times you posted it. Try again

[marden]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

That propaganda-article didn't sway us the last three hundred times you posted it. Try again

Repetition works with those who are slow on the draw.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by marden 

Repetition works with those who are slow on the draw.

It doesn't with those who are a bit quicker in the head, though.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Great argument, Spliffy.

No, really - it's like claiming that a lie ain't a lie if it's called "untruth" or "failure to disclose".

Or a swamp ain't a swamp if the map says it's "marshlands".

Cunning logic, and real intellectual weight, there.

Now pass that joint.

Actually, Spliffdaddy is right on this one. Bush didn't say Iraq=Vietnam, he said that the stepped up violence shortly before the elections in November is similar to the Tet-offensive in Vietnam shortly before the presidential elections back then, and the point he wanted to stress is that the insurgents are trying to influence the elections with stepped up violence.

Taliesin

[marden]

Originally Posted by analogika 

It doesn't with those who are a bit quicker in the head, though.

Those who are a bit quicker in the head know the repeated postings of the link are not for them and don't pay it any attention.

[Millennium]

If Iraq fails, it will be for the same reason Vietnam failed: because we didn't have the resolve to finish the job. Neither was any more of a quagmire than Japan or Germany were post-WWII: we just haven't had the will to do what needed to be done.

The hell of it is, this is exactly what the insurgency and the groups that spawned it have been counting on all along. What was the quote again, "they will tire of it first"?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

I haven't seen a joint since....well, it's been many months.

Doing bongs now eh? That explains a lot.

V

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

could you please highlight where Dubya used the word 'quagmire'
.

Same tactic that is used when they post "Bush admits no link between terror and Iraq"

And in the topic it makes claims that no links have been found between Osama and Saddam.

The post in the topic as to what they WANT it to say, hoping no one will read what is actually said I guess.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

Actually, Spliffdaddy is right on this one. Bush didn't say Iraq=Vietnam, he said that the stepped up violence shortly before the elections in November is similar to the Tet-offensive in Vietnam shortly before the presidential elections back then, and the point he wanted to stress is that the insurgents are trying to influence the elections with stepped up violence.

Taliesin

And when Talie is agreeing with Spliff, you know you are wrong.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

If Iraq fails, it will be for the same reason Vietnam failed: because we didn't have the resolve to finish the job. Neither was any more of a quagmire than Japan or Germany were post-WWII: we just haven't had the will to do what needed to be done.

The hell of it is, this is exactly what the insurgency and the groups that spawned it have been counting on all along. What was the quote again, "they will tire of it first"?

"Didn't have the resolve" = Anti-Bush zealots not caring about what happens as long as Bush fails so they pressure and pressure and pressure to get out, and when we do, they blame Bush for the failure.

Yes it's that ironic.

[- - e r i k - -]

^ See my ****-pool analogy agrees with what Kevin said

[Dakar²]

I knew this was going to get brought up when I heard this on the news. I think we're good for at least 4 pages here.

[Sky Captain]

Almost the whole continent of Africa is a quagmire.
Hasn't changed a bit since I was ther in 1992-93.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Almost the whole continent of Africa is a quagmire.
Hasn't changed a bit since I was ther in 1992-93.

That's true, but what does that have to do with Bush's comment or Iraq?

[besson3c]

"Quagmire" sounds like a kick-ass name for a chocolate bar.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

That's true, but what does that have to do with Bush's comment or Iraq?

Because it's Bash America Day™ again?
Just a friendly reminder that America is not the only place with problems.
And we don't need to be constantly reminded of it. From Africa.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

And we don't need to be constantly reminded of it. From Africa.

Good point about the source (not where, but whom).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Because it's Bash America Day™ again?
Just a friendly reminder that America is not the only place with problems.
And we don't need to be constantly reminded of it. From Africa.

Sorry that it offends your senses, but I don't think it is unreasonable for the world to have high expectations of America, higher than Africa or anyplace else.

The same could be said of any giant company with a lot of resources in comparison to a much smaller one. We bitch about Walmart, because we expect them to be able to do more than Joe's Department Store.

[Sky Captain]

And from my research. Nairobi is a quagmire.
And the "forest" outside of Nairobi is even worse.
Tragic in fact.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

"Quagmire" sounds like a kick-ass name for a chocolate bar.

Sounds chewy, with the possibility of almonds…

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

And from my research. Nairobi is a quagmire.
And the "forest" outside of Nairobi is even worse.
Tragic in fact.

Ha! They chopped down all their forests, so there

[DBursey]

Main Entry: quag·mire
Pronunciation: 'kwag-"mI(-&)r, 'kwäg-
Function: noun
1 : soft miry land that shakes or yields under the foot
2 : a difficult, precarious, or entrapping position : see PREDICAMENT

If the shoe fits ...

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Sorry that it offends your senses, but I don't think it is unreasonable for the world to have high expectations of America, higher than Africa or anyplace else.

The same could be said of any giant company with a lot of resources in comparison to a much smaller one. We bitch about Walmart, because we expect them to be able to do more than Joe's Department Store.

No I actually expect Joe's Department Store to be better.
Quality goods, personal attention.


I would expect the birthplace of man and civilization to be more advanced and civilized.

I'm reading a book now about Africa.
A pilot in Africa during the 1930's.
West With The Night.
Her Africa is far different from my Africa.
I wish I could have seen her Africa.

[RAILhead]

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

No I actually expect Joe's Department Store to be better.
Quality goods, personal attention.

My point was that Walmart has more resources at its disposal, sorry if that wasn't clear.

[aepple]

People seem to forget this a war... not the war we are familiar with...but a different kind of war... but a war. What war do we know of that wasn't a quagmire, it's only because we look at wars of the past after the fact with end results, not as it happened.

WW 1 and WW 2 had plenty of deaths that included civilians and military people; it had plenty of destruction, plenty of ferous battles, and PLENTY OF BLUNDERS. Today we live free and prosperous because of past deaths, destruction, and the quagmires/blunders of wars.

[Sky Captain]

I do understand.(I think)
You don't have to have vast resources to be better.

And resources at it's disposal?
Like Europe dosen't? Isn't that part of what the EU is supposed to accomplish. Make Europe a unified economic power?

I still don't understand the whole "rich America should save the world" theme.
I've seen what happens when you try to help and the people won't assist. At all.

[zerroeffect]

This "war" is a mistake, plain and simple. Just like Vietnam. Admit it and move on.

Get our troops out of that hell hole and allow the people of Iraq to rebuild. We're already going to have many, many mentally and physically screwed up veterans from this "war." It's sad that the government won't own up to its mistake until maybe a decade or more down the road, when everyone who is involved in the decision making is safely retired with their millions of dollars and comfortable homes.

If the people who are so blindly faithful to other fallible humans with their own agendas cannot realize this, I feel sorry for you.

[Sky Captain]

GW1 ws a mistake, it was unfinished.

[Mark Larr]

The reporting on iraq has been down right treasonously criminal.


Directly giving strategic information to the enemy repeatedly.


Anderson Cooper should be hanged immediately over his sniper piece as he gleefully cheered on the enemy and gave them advice on how to murder our troops.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Mark Larr 

The reporting on iraq has been down right treasonously criminal.


Directly giving strategic information to the enemy repeatedly.


Anderson Cooper should be hanged immediately over his sniper piece as he gleefully cheered on the enemy and gave them advice on how to murder our troops.

It's like shooting fish in a barrel over there, they don't need pointers from CNN.

(ie. burry an IED in the road, hide behind a rock and wait until some soldiers drive over it in their mighty Hummer, dial D for detonate... BOOM. A child could fight that war...and they probably do.)

[Mark Larr]

Apparently our african anarchist is the local expert.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

If Iraq fails, it will be for the same reason Vietnam failed: because we didn't have the resolve to finish the job. Neither was any more of a quagmire than Japan or Germany were post-WWII: we just haven't had the will to do what needed to be done.

The hell of it is, this is exactly what the insurgency and the groups that spawned it have been counting on all along. What was the quote again, "they will tire of it first"?

YES!

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Same tactic that is used when they post "Bush admits no link between terror and Iraq"

And in the topic it makes claims that no links have been found between Osama and Saddam.

The post in the topic as to what they WANT it to say, hoping no one will read what is actually said I guess.

Yes!

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

I knew this was going to get brought up when I heard this on the news. I think we're good for at least 4 pages here.

Seems SOMEONE is awfully preoccupied with the LENGTH of things. AHEM No one is thinking anyone here has an inferiority complex. Squared.

[marden]

Originally Posted by aepple 

People seem to forget this a war... not the war we are familiar with...but a different kind of war... but a war. What war do we know of that wasn't a quagmire, it's only because we look at wars of the past after the fact with end results, not as it happened.

WW 1 and WW 2 had plenty of deaths that included civilians and military people; it had plenty of destruction, plenty of ferous battles, and PLENTY OF BLUNDERS. Today we live free and prosperous because of past deaths, destruction, and the quagmires/blunders of wars.

Yes!

[itai195]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

If Iraq fails, it will be for the same reason Vietnam failed: because we didn't have the resolve to finish the job. Neither was any more of a quagmire than Japan or Germany were post-WWII: we just haven't had the will to do what needed to be done.

Who do you refer to as 'we?' The government? The people? The military?

[marden]

Originally Posted by zerroeffect 

This "war" is a mistake, plain and simple. Just like Vietnam. Admit it and move on.

Get our troops out of that hell hole and allow the people of Iraq to rebuild. We're already going to have many, many mentally and physically screwed up veterans from this "war." It's sad that the government won't own up to its mistake until maybe a decade or more down the road, when everyone who is involved in the decision making is safely retired with their millions of dollars and comfortable homes.

If the people who are so blindly faithful to other fallible humans with their own agendas cannot realize this, I feel sorry for you.

Imagine if America's black hip hop world aligned itself with global jihadist forces, as we saw evidence of the possibility in Miami a few weeks ago. There would be fighting and shooting and bombings in the streets of America and the jihadists would strive to turn this into a full blown race war so that America would be torn in two, like the Sunnis and Shiites are fighting in Iraq.

If SOMEHOW the economy and government was destabilized and Great Britain came in to help the Government get itself straight would you be so eager to have England conclude that America was a mistake and they should just move on?

[marden]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

GW1 ws a mistake, it was unfinished.

That is one of the main reasons why the invasion was necessary.

AND legal.

The Cease Fire terms were violated. That means we were OBLIGED to go back in and kick his ass.

[besson3c]

Oh no! Not only do I now have to worry about little kids and octupuses, but now hip-hop artists!!

Somebody comfort me.

[besson3c]

So guys, at what point will you no longer see pursuing Iraq being in our best interests? What will it take? Just wondering...

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Oh no! Not only do I now have to worry about little kids and octupuses, but now hip-hop artists!!

Somebody comfort me.

Kanye West on NBC - "George Bush Doesn't Care About Black People"
by repost Saturday, Sep. 03, 2005 at 7:43 AM

"I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family and they say we are looting, you see a white family and they say they are looking for food. And, you know, its been five days..."
video: windows media at 3.7 mebibytes

Transcript:

Mike Myers: [dutifully reads canned plea for charity on teleprompter]

Kanye: [abandons teleprompter] "I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family and they say we are looting, you see a white family and they say they are looking for food. And, you know, its been five days because most of the people ARE black. And even for me to complain, I would be a hypocrite because I would turn away from the TV because it's too hard to watch. I've even been shopping before even giving a donation, so now I'm calling my business manager right to see what is the biggest amount I can give. And just to imagine, if I was down there and those are my people down there. If there is anybody out there that wants to do anything that we can help about the way America is set up the help the poor, the black people, the less well off as slow as possible. Red cross is doing as much as they can. We already realize a lot of the people that could help are at war right now, fighting another way. And now they've given them permission to go down and shoot us.

Mike Myers: [stands frozen in horror, decides to pretend nothing happened and stick with the teleprompter]

Kanye: George Bush doesn't care about black people.

Mike Myers: [descends into complete panic] Please call -- [camera cuts off]

www.hiphopmusic.com/archives/001133.html

http://neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/4117.php

Here, this should do it.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

So guys, at what point will you no longer see pursuing Iraq being in our best interests? What will it take? Just wondering...

When the jihadists and radical islamists give up and move on.