[Doofy]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Where do rich people's money come from then, Narnia?

...or is it they make money off the system of consuming held largely in place by the unwashed masses?

And here's the difference:

Nobody forced you, under threat of imprisonment, to buy whatever it is that the rich person was selling in order to make him rich.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

I also asked you what you think entitles you to have anything to do with what is done with billionaires money? What entitles you to it, over them, the people that did whatever they did to create it in the first place. You still haven't answered. So let's hear it.

The same thing that entitles you to have my money, over me. The constitution (the 16th amendment).

But it does affect us, in the same way tax cheats affect us.

No it doesn't. Some billionaire doing what he pleases with his own money doesn't affect you in the least

In what way does tax evasion hurt me that tax avoidance doesn't?

As Doofy pointed out, even if a billionaire or multi-millionare pays a lower rate than you, they still pay MORE real dollars than you. So you're the one looking like a tax-cheat in comparison.

If you object to the concept of an income tax, that is another topic. This topic is whether "income is income is income" or whether one person's income is more specialler than the next person's. Why would you demonize working-people's income by taxing it at a higher rate than passive income? What is so horrible about working for your paycheck, that you would want to discourage it?

Again, all this focus on what someone else pays- even when it's much more than you- rather than a focus on ending the fraud and waste that makes it so ALL of the money just goes down a rathole. That's class-envy for you.

What makes you think it's either/or? Most people can actually carry two thoughts in their head at once; I would have thought you were one of them. Except I know that you're just trying to change the subject to avoid admitting your viewpoint is not logical.

You're the one who pulled the whole 'tax-cheat' thing right out of your ass, with, as usual, not a shred of proof.

[I can see you're having trouble with this concept so I'm re-addressing it. If you finally caught on earlier in this post, then disregard this section]
I didn't say tax avoiders are tax evaders. Period. That is the source of your confusion.
I don't need to "prove" that tax evasion happens. If you doubt that it happens, you're just an idiot. And I know you're not an idiot, CRASH, so I know that you will accept that the phenomenon of tax evasion is real.
All I'm saying is that the effects of tax avoidance on me are the same as the effects of tax evasion. Tax rates will be that much (slightly) higher to compensate. The policy decisions on wether to reduce tax evasion (enforcement) or reduce tax avoidance (closing loopholes) are equivalent.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And here's the difference:

Nobody forced you, under threat of imprisonment, to buy whatever it is that the rich person was selling in order to make him rich.

It's funny, if not for government preventing it, you would have rich entrepreneurs using force to compel you to buy their wares/services/protection

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

If you object to the concept of an income tax, that is another topic. This topic is whether "income is income is income" or whether one person's income is more specialler than the next person's. Why would you demonize working-people's income by taxing it at a higher rate than passive income? What is so horrible about working for your paycheck, that you would want to discourage it?

Indeed. Simple fairness and equity would require the system to tax income at the same rate. Whether that income came from wages or capital gains or dividends is immaterial. At the end of the day income is income. I'm actually open to the idea of flatter and simpler tax structure but this would have to be a component of it.

OAW

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

They're dodging taxes and spreading the burdon onto the middle class to make up for it. Being rich is not a privilege to screw everyone else out of their money.

So you admit that you're mooching off the rich then. Or, at least, would like to.

How did you come to the exact opposite conclusion of what I just stated? The rich are dodging taxes, forcing the middle class to pay higher tax rates to make up for the money the government is not getting from the rich.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So, who defines "as much as they should"?
Is that the same money for the same services, or more money for the same services?

I just stated that a flat tax rate would be fine for all income levels, so long as they (meaning the rich) actually pay it. Then it doesn't matter how much money you make and we don't need an arbitrary definition of rich, middle class, and poor. Keep the necessities exemption in place such as groceries, etc. tax free.

The problem with FairTax is that there aren't any changes to how other sources of income are taxed. Interest and dividend income is untaxed under FairTax regardless of age, so the exact same problem we're facing now is still prevalent with FairTax.

I wouldn't mind a fixed income tax so long as it doesn't discriminate against where that income comes from as long you're under 65. I would like to see tax shelters eliminated, bans on offshore accounts actually enforced, and large, corporatized religious institutions taxed as businesses.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And here's the difference:

Nobody forced you, under threat of imprisonment, to buy whatever it is that the rich person was selling in order to make him rich.

Look, you are a guy who likes black and white statements, so here's one for you.

The majority of the really rich in this country have skirted more tax laws than most know exist. That's the reason rich people get rich, they know how to work the system and make their wealth make them more wealth. That's why we hear stuff like celebrity X owes 20 million in back taxes. How the sh!t does that even happen? I don't pay my taxes one year and the government is up my ass. We cater, our whole system that is, to rich people and we let them do whatever the hell they want.

If they were so burdened by taxation they would never get rich, ya dig? Why is it that the middle class has such a hard time getting ahead when they pay so little in comparison? It's because middle class people have no income that isn't known by the government, and no asset that isn't taxed. If rich people actually paid that 60 percent then maybe I'd be up in arms with you, but they don't, they'd be stupid to.

Are trust funds considered income? If not then I know a lady who is worth a half billion yet probably pays less taxes than my dad.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I would like to see tax shelters eliminated

So now you want to destroy Monaco, Bermuda and the like.

Good to know. I guess it'll give your boys something to do now that "hostilities are ended" in Iraq.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Why is it that the middle class has such a hard time getting ahead when they pay so little in comparison?

Because the middle classes spend too much time with distractions. The road to success is littered with attractive lay-bys.

[sek929]

All I'm saying is that rich folks are very clever, which makes sense right?

Regular folk aren't so clever, and usually do what they are told.

That's what my argument boils down to. Rich people are way more clever, and are able to get around taxation laws. Poor folks are not, and they can't skirt tax laws, they do what they are told.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by sek929 

All I'm saying is that rich folks are very clever, which makes sense right?

Regular folk aren't so clever, and usually do what they are told.

That's what my argument boils down to. Rich people are way more clever, and are able to get around taxation laws. Poor folks are not, and they can't skirt tax laws, they do what they are told.

I kind of agree with the gist of that, but I wouldn't have said "clever" since it's really not that hard to find the loopholes (and it's really not that hard to find high interest rates for your savings either). Perhaps "more interested" or "more observant" would be appropriate? "Less distracted" maybe?

[sek929]

All of the above, IMO.

I'd like a financing class, a real world one, to be mandatory in High School. It's silly that we read about all these things that are supposed to help us in life but the biggest help students can get is to be told how to function within the system and make a living for yourself. Let's have the class where you bake cakes thrown away and replaced by something that will actually matter to the student the second they graduate.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I'd like a financing class, a real world one, to be mandatory in High School. It's silly that we read about all these things that are supposed to help us in life but the biggest help students can get is to be told how to function within the system and make a living for yourself. Let's have the class where you bake cakes thrown away and replaced by something that will actually matter to the student the second they graduate.

I agree with that. Apart from the getting rid of the baking class - cake is important. Learning how to speak French, however, isn't.

[sek929]

I know, I took 3 years of French for some damn reason.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So now you want to destroy Monaco, Bermuda and the like.

Maybe Monaco, Bermuda, et al should move away from an economy based on illegal activity.

I'm also for legalizing personal amounts of most drugs, including cocaine. It'll destroy Mexico and South America's thriving cocaine trade, but I don't care.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Maybe Monaco, Bermuda, et al should move away from an economy based on illegal activity.

I'll let you into a little secret.

World's largest tax haven? The US and A.
For non-nationals, of course.

Maybe the US and A should move away from an economy based on telling other countries what to do under threat of force. You fat bastards.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I'll let you into a little secret.

World's largest tax haven? The US and A.
For non-nationals, of course.

Doof speaketh the truth.

Most other countries will automatically withhold taxes from income generated by assets in bank accounts and securities. The US does not.

For foreigners, the US is awesome for investing. For US citizens, subject to all the extra ridicule and surveillance, it's not.

The reality is, the US treats foreign investments with much more openness and friendliness than it treats its own citizens.

-t